Kay and Apollonia

I'm sorry if some of you guys don't like this, but I'm tired of all this talk about how beautiful and great Apollonia was. Michael only married Apollonia because of her looks and because she'd be an obediant wife. To tell you the truth, I disliked the whole relationship between Michael and Apollonia. I also don't think that Michael used logic when he married Apollonia. How could he marry a young and innocent teenage girl under the conditions he was in? He was in exile in Sicily and in danger of being killed. Didn't he know that because his life was in danger Apollonia's life could be in danger too if he married her? Obviously, he didn't give one thought to that because he married her after only a brief "courtship" of two weeks, and if you don't believe me read the book. The book also said something about him being so in love with her beauty and wanting to possess her, and he wanted the "courtship" to move along quickly so he could marry her. I also want to say that I'm tired of people saying that Apollonia would've been a better wife than Kay was because she was Italian. Kay couldn't help it that she wasn't born Italian! I think that Kay was a good wife to Michael and she tried her best to fit into his family. Kay wasn't used to living the type of lifestyle that the Corleones lived. She grew up in a small New England town and was the only child of a Baptist pastor and his wife. From what I've seen in the movie and read in the book, it seems that Kay was used to living a simple but comfortable life. I don't think her parents were rich but they weren't poor either. Michael, on the other hand, did come from a rich family. His family owned a large estate on Long Island that stayed guarded like a fortress. Kay wasn't used to living in such over protection and luxury. Then, she had to go through the same thing when the family moved to Lake Tahoe, Nevada. I think that lifestyle made her feel bit uncomfortable throughout her marriage to Michael. I also want to point out that Kay loved Michael much more than he ever loved her. She waited for him for about three years while he was in exile in Sicily. That's longer than I would ever wait for a man I tell you that! She spent all that time trying to call and write to him and he couldn't even get a message sent to her through Sonny or Tom. Then, he had the nerve to just completely forget about her and marry a teenage girl he barely knew! I think Michael was selfish for what he did, and he was even more selfish for not telling Kay about it before he practically pleaded for her to marry him! I think Kay should've stayed with her first instinct that it was too late for them to get married. Michael had already been back from Sicily for more than a year and didn't even have the courteousy to call or write her and tell her that he had returned home safely and was alright. However, Kay stayed loyal to Michael all while he was gone and never betrayed him. She even refused dates with other men because she truly loved Michael. Once again, if you don't believe me read the book. I hope some of you agree with what I had to say.

Jan, when is your novel coming out?

I for one see you point and understand where you are coming from!

Whoa Jan! Make paragraphs next time. Or at least put smiley faces in... found myself reading the same line over and over.

Apollonia was boring. She also had a whiny ass voice, didn't know the days of the week in order, and couldn't drive worth shit. But she was SOOO pretty. DAMN HER. I hate her too. Bitch!

But since you read the book, you know that Michael DOES tell Kay he had been with someone else. She got a little mad, but come on. He's a man and men have one weakness: Their pee-pees.

Apollonia wouldn't have been a better wife because she was Italian. I'm sure she would have been just as annoying and bossy as Kay. Mike by that point would have made his wife a prisioner whether she was Kay or not. Apollonia wasn't a pushover, you can tell by the way she wines and honks the fuckin' horn after Mike learns Sonny died. So considering Kay and Apollonia were both strong women, Mike would have been screwed with either one.

So in my opinion they're equal, except Kay could teach classes and sew ugly curtians, and Apollonia could cook and wreck cars.

Hi,
What did you want him to do? He was in exile. He may have thought that he would never be able to return to America. By the way when Vito said to the Commission that he had to make arrangements to bring his youngest Son back he wasn't kidding. In the book they made a deal with a prisoner on death row. The Corleone's would provide for his family if he took the rap for killing McClusky and Sollazzo. That is how Michael was able to return to the United States.

Paul

if you're in exile and always in the company of two bodyguards walking in Sicily, you will surely look for a girl. and in this situation, Mikey saw Appolonia and was hit by a thunderbolt.

GoodFella

(my apologies for the length of this post)

As far as Kay ... I think certainly Mike would have been in the wrong if he had hurt her with the knowlege that he had gotten married to Appolonia. But if I'm not mistaken, weren't Kay and Michael just boyfriend and girlfriend? (mi dispiace ... I don't recall).
Consider too that Michael didn't know when he would be able to come back; that he had in fact, told Kay to go back to her parents... and during his time in Sicily I don't think they had any communication at all.

I think it's kinda presumptuous anytime we think we know whether two people should love each other and get married (in real life as well as represented in the movies). We aren't them and we aren't in their heads or their cultures. Culturally, around the world people's idea of marriage is very different than our own and they believe just as strongly as we do that they are doing the right thing.

Sicilians, and Italians on the mainland (especially verses Italians north of Calabria) consider themselves pretty separate cultures; in language, in food, and in customs (btw: this used to be a sensitive issue in my family with my older relatives who were both Calabrese and Sicilian). While there are a predominance of similarities, there are quite a few contrasts (as least in degree) that tend to set them apart.

Sicily has been influenced by Arabic culture and was in fact ruled by the Moors about 1000 years ago. Much of Sicily's modern culture retains those influences. All cultures are a mish-mash of other cultures that influenced them. For Sicily this included traditions of the Roman Empire, Greek influences, North African Moorish influences, as well as feudal and Norman influence.

Old Roman law is where having a best man and maid-of-honor come from in Italy. Some other old customs in Sicily and Southern Italy are things like the procession from the bride's parents' home to the church; throwing either paper confetti ... or candy ... this is why those candy covered almonds are often called 'confetti' ... this is the candy that Appolonia was going around the wedding party and giving to each person.

To understand the circumstances that Mike was getting married in, it's important to know something about Sicilian culture.

In marriage, Muslims, and Sicilians influenced by that culture, sometimes took more than one wife. They also tended to have arranged marriages; this is the basis for Michael to have been so forward in arranging the marriage directly with Appolonia's father.

The chaperoned walk that Mike and Appolonia took was another old aspect of Sicilian courtship. At another point, Appolonia automatically looks to an older female family member before she opens Michaels gift. All this is very old practice. Interaction between the couple took place *within* the family; something that we aren't used to today.

Sicilians also often took wives who were as young as 15 to 17 years old (and this was often a girl who had been 'spoken for' since the age of 13 or 14); marrying very young is something that is quite common in many cultures especially in areas with high infant mortality and harsh living conditions.
(As an aside: as recently as the early 70's, in some southern states in the US, girls could marry at 15 and at *13* with parental consent (I believe this was Mississippi). It's both obnoxiously pious, and 'PC' when we impose our prudish sexual 'morality' on other cultures we know nothing about (he says as he backs away from the steep slope ... gravel cascading down before him).

In the old days in Sicily; because arranged marriages didn't require a formal courtship or engagement between the couple, marriages might occur very quickly after the decision was made. Michael's quick move to marriage would not be uncommon. This was still occurring right up thru the 1940's.

I should point out, however, there is a very different custom in Sicily and Southern Italy as well; since about the turn of the last century; of specifically having *very* long, drawn-out "engagements" sometimes lasting 5 or 7 years. This practice, which is really just calling a 'boyfriend/girlfriend' relationship an 'engagement', took hold to provide some sort of 'dignity' to the increasing tendency to have pre-marital sex. Another reason some claim is an economic one, giving the man a chance to get some "wealth" together (Hmmmmm, so some people claim, anyway.)

Marriage practices like the ones I've noted found their way into Sicilian culture and exist in Sicilian culture even right up to modern times-- nearly a thousand years after direct Moorish or Muslim influence had ended.

Somebody did their homework on the marriage of Mike and Appolonia in the movie. I thought they did a spectacular job.

As far as the marriage being inappropriate; I do not judge Mike so harshly.

i thought they were engaged?

i agree with some of what Jan says, i never was a part of the "Apollonia would be the perfect wife/his one true love" camp. however, i don't judge Michael harshly for marrying Apollonia. he was making best of the situation his was in, thinking with his pee-pee (as PastaPunk says), and thought life with Kay was over. i always believed it was Kay that shouldn't have married Michael not the other way around ... does that make sense?

Hey, I always thought her voice was damn SEXY!

Plus, uh... She's hot?

I always believed that Appolonia was considered "beautiful" was because FFC made all the others look extremely daudy. So in comparisons with the other women, she do look the best. But drop dead gorgeous? Give me a break!
PastaPunk was right! Appolonia would not make a good wife because she was so impatient. All the horn bopping and distrupting IMPORTANT conversations with him and Don Tomansino. I sure that Don Tomansino was very concern that Michael was teaching her to drive! Kay never did that! I just think Kay did not want business deals in her home and away from her children.

Jan I agree with you on most of your points. However, I disagree with you that you feel that it was Michael's fault that Appolonia was killed. Heck! who told the b****h to drive the car in the first place! She knew that she was to be seperated from Michael because the area was not SAFE. Therefore, she caused her own fate. Michael should have just kept her in the bedroom (where she truly belongs) and she would have been alive (shunken eyes and all!)

She was going to surpise Michael remember? Its Fabrizios fault. One way to look at it if Michael wasn't a powerful mafioso she wouldn;t be in danger all the time. Anyways, I think Appolonia too was very impatient and immature (because of her age). Kay on the otherhand really loved Michael but detested him because of his lifestyle. She was patient and very loyal. Too inquistive but still logical. All in all, Kay was better for him.

I dunno bout Kay, but what girl would wait for 3 years for a guy, lol. Guess Kay something in Michael that he didn't see on other guys (or just got tired of the dating scene).

DC

Hi,
Apollonia was blowing the horn because she is still immature. I will agree with Anthony that she is one fine looking woman.

Paul

Fabrizzo was the "danger" the reason that she must leave. No one told her to drive the car alone in the first place. Even Michael told her that her driving was not safe. The suprise is on her! Now she is dead! RIP Appolonia

Kay was the one that was the anomaly. Mike was way up in New Hampshire, in Dartmouth. It was cold and dreary and Mike had just come back from war. Now he was away from his family, his food and his women . In his lonliness he falls in love with a college girl who just HAPPENS to be a W.A.S.P., another act of rebellion against his father's traditions. Tony D said

Sicily has been influenced by Arabic culture and was in fact ruled by the Moors about 1000 years ago. Much of Sicily's modern culture retains those influences. All cultures are a mish-mash of other cultures that influenced them. For Sicily this included traditions of the Roman Empire, Greek influences, North African Moorish influences, as well as feudal and Norman influence.

This is very important. Kay was not just a different culture, she was a different race. Subtle, but different. Mike didn't slap her when she admitted the abortion, he slapped her when she spoke with contempt about "...this Sicilian thing!"
Apollonia may not have been a better wife (I believe she would have) but she would have understood the life. She was beautiful, and charming and I was hit with the THUNDERBOLT 19 years ago and my wife and I are still together.
I am not being sacreligious, but the Bible says " be not unequally yolked with an unbeliever" and metaphorically speaking, it applies here.

Sorry for the rant, " someone struck a noive".

I just want to say that I agree with you, Jan. All I was thinking when I watched him court/ and marry her was "what is he doing?" It seemed so out of character...he was supposed to be calm and intelligent. I thought she was annoying, and not as hot as everyone else thinks she is. And it was selfish for him to go back and marry Kay after everything he did.

When it comes to love and sex, for pete's sake a young man...calm and intelligent??? Give Mike a break. He didn't put a gun to Kay's head SHE was stupid to acquiesce so quickly. Where was her intelligence??? And Apollonia did not have blue veins showing on her neck.

Hell yeah!

But, listen, guys... Give Appolonia AND Mike a break! Everyone's saying my poor Appolonia is annoying with the car shit... But, c'mon. It's Italy. Girls there didn't have as much opportunity there... Can yah blame her for being a bit annoying? She was excited! And with Mike... He's a young, hot blooded male! You expect him to just drop everything and hold everything for Kay for a year? He sees a hot girl, he wants to bang her! Er, excuse my language... I mean... He's going to go after her. Give them a break, eh?

Well, Michael was struck by the thunderbolt.

Waspy Kay would have made the perfect wife for Tom, Sonny should have been married to Apollonia (paybacks for his screwing around would have been that he would have been insanely jealous of her because of her beauty), she would have handled him better than his mousy wife, and Sonny's wife would have been a perfect wife for Michael, not as much of a pest as Kay!

As Jules quoted Fonzie in Pulp Fiction... CORRECT-A-MUNDO!

First of all, I'm sorry for not using paragraphs in my first message. I was at work and had to start my shift soon so I was in a bit of a rush. Secondly, some of you still don't get the point I'm trying to make. I didn't say it was Michael's fault that Apollonia was killed. However, he should've considered the fact that by marrying her he was putting her life in danger.

Yes, it's true that Michael was thinking with his penis, and I think that's a shame. Also, I think it's so pathetic when people say that Michael couldn't help his feelings because he got hit by the "thunderbolt" and because men have weaknesses. Am I the only one who thinks there's something wrong with that?!

Also, Saladbar was right. Michael and Kay were indeed engaged before he was exiled to Sicily. I don't know why so many people keep saying they weren't!

I also think that Kay had a right to know about Michael's marriage in Sicily. True, she would've been hurt and she most likely wouldn't have married Michael if he told her about Apollonia. However, it would've been better for her to know the hurtful truth than to marry him and live a lie. I think that if you truly love someone you should be honest with them. Obviously, Michael didn't love Kay that much or else he wouldn't have married Apollonia in the first place. I think it's so cruel that he just completely forgot about her and married someone else.

Lastly, I strongly agree that Kay shouldn't have married Michael. She would've been much better off without him.

Yeah, I get pretty sick when people always go after Kay simply becasue see wanted to be treated like something more then an object and cared for the well-being of her children. She's one of the more moral of the Corleones. Michael constantely lied to her. Michael may have been in love with Appolonia, but it was Kay that really had it for him. Discussions been reaised before about Michael's sexual issues after the tragic death of Appolonia. He wants the music and the hoolers out, and he doesn't seem to care a lot for the Havanna shows at teh hotel. I guess I've thought that as a teenager and youung man, Michael may have been totally different one of those "dar kids" "a horny young man", etc. After that attempted hit on his home when he left, do you really think he got anything afterwards?

NOOO!!! Why should Tom suffer just because he's a white boy?

I must admit I liked Mike with Apollonia better than Mike with Kay. Boo hoo for Kay. It was her choice to wait for him and to eventually marry him. (In the book Mamma even tells her to "feggetaboudit!") I still think both girls would have been equal when it comes to being a wife, but Apollonia would have... well.. she just meshed well.

Blue veins on her neck? What does that mean? Sounds kinda gross.

As for Mike seeming out of character for courting Apollonia... realize that he was a changed man after he killed Sollozo and McCluskey. He was no longer the man for Kay. I think he started to realize what his father stood for, and he finally wanted to be a part of his family.

Actually, Jan... both wives would have been better off without him.

p.s. I could wait 3 years for a man. Then again, if I moved away from my fiance, couldn't keep in contact and found a hotter boy, I'd go for it!

Okay...

1. Puzo CLEARLY indicates that Mike was hit by the thunderbolt... love at first sight... what have you... they were in lust or maybe even love... as most people would agree, love over comes most of your other emotions.

2. You people have to realize that Mike isn't exactly a saint, he is a murderer... he shouldn't be expected to make rational decisions when it comes to women... let alone other people.

3. Kay KNEW what she was getting into, if the new lifestyle was so different and tough for her to adapt to, then she should have found somebody else.

4. I hate to say this because I like to get into movies as much as most of the people on here... but really... does this all bother you THAT much? They are after all, FICTIONAL characters. If you are losing sleep over what a few people on the internet believe then I'd recommend you get some help.

-Lucky

What was so great about Apollonia? I know that most of you guys think that she was so beautiful, but what else was there about her? Let's be real, she barely said anything in the movie or in the book, her role was so brief. The book even says that she was just a village girl, barely literate, and with no knowledge of the world. So, what was so great about her?

Think about it REAL hard. In the entire trilogy we only get one thing (besides a nuemonia-driven baby Fredo ). This is just speculation by me, of course .

I am surprised at all the negativity shown toward Appollonia, especially it seems by the women! In that time in Italy, things were done very differently as far as marriage goes. Somtimes courtships were very short and sometimes marriages were even arranged. It was not uncommon to marry very young either.

I do think Michael loved Appolonia. We never really got to know her personality as the audience, but I don't think she was unlikeable at all. I think she would have been a loving, faithful wife to Michael, and accepted him under any circumstances (right or wrong).

Kay, however, was also a good wife. More liberated, and willing to stand up to Michael, to an extent, and she too loved him. Neither were bad wives.

However, I still maintain Appollonia would have been a better match for Michael, yes, because she was Italian, and even tho very young at the time of her marriage, knew the customs and beliefs, knew when to keep quiet (be it right or wrong); and never, ever would have had an abortion, which is what Kay had to to get out of her marriage to Michael. Appollonia was more like mama, I am sure. I think that's what Michael needed/wanted in a woman; someone to be there, be faithful and loving, and yes, never interfere in the "family business".

BTW, when Appolonia was honking the horn for Michael to teach her to drive, she couldn't hear the conversation in which Michael was told that Sonny was killed.

TIS

PS Sorry, I am not usually this long winded!!

Jan I think you are trying to impose a personal requirement of your own on Appolonia's character that was never intended to be there.

Naive, simple Appolonia was a perfect foil to Mikes complicity and dark secrets as he fled the murders he had committed.

Like the rugged beauty of the countryside where Mike took refuge, Appolonia was essentially part of that that same unspoiled simplicity; found on a hillside like a beautiful flower with a purple ribbon in her hair. This is why her character doesn't have significant performances or dialog.

She was part of the experience of Sicily which contrasted so totally to the ugliness that had occurred back in New York.
If you'll recall, the change in the tenor of the movie that Sicily provided was very distinct. It was a landscape of simple, uncomplicated beauty with breathtaking views and a background of ancient surroundings which provided a relief from the rest of the movie the way art often does in real life. Appolonia was a part of that experience.

The simpleness and innocence of her character also allowed the audience to sense that she was being 'taken in' by Michael; setting up the turn in the plot where eventually the ugliness that Michael was trying to hide from catches up with him and also finds her because of him.
It was innocence and beauty tragically lost in the best tradition of theater!!

I think the character of Appolonia was yet another masterful part of Coppola's work and added a dimension to Sicily that couldn't be expressed with landscapes. And allowed the audience to visit the tragedy that Michael's life was becoming in a deeper way.

It would be missing the point to get all wrapped up in being judgemntal about their relationship.

That seems to be the surprizing fact TIS. If the Italian, Italian-American, Sicilian and Sicilian-American women feel that it's comfortable and appropriate to do so, I would be interested to know what they think about the Kay/Apollonia controversy. It may be a cultural split but it may just be a man/woman difference in thinking. What do you say?

PastaPunk said:
Blue veins on her neck? What does that mean? Sounds kinda gross.

My personal preference is a woman with some color, like Apollonia. Kay was pale as a ghost, and probably had her blue veins showing through her skin. No offense intended to very fair skinned women. "It's not business, it's just personal."

Hi,
In the book, Apollonia was pregnant with Michael's child before she is blown up in the car. Michael also had no idea when he could if at all return to America. I spoke of how the Corleone's found someone to cop to killing both Sollazzo and McClusky.

Paul

I agree 100% with yah, TIS! 100%!

We never got to know Appolonia, so tell me people... How is she so annoying and whiney and a bitch? Not that all of you said that, but it's what yah make it out to be. I mean, she had a few lines... You didn't get to know her, as you did Kay, to see her personality!

And, TIS... I agree with you again. Appolonia was honking the horn because Mike was going to teach her to drive. As I said in an earlier post... Women in Italy didn't have as much of a right as women in America did. This was all knew to her, I mean... A women driving in all. She was excited. She was honking the horn! Big deal! She didn't hear the convo Mike was having. If she did, I'm SURE she'd stop honking!

Hi,
From what I got to know of Apollonia I liked her.

Paul

Me too... ALOT.

Feel compelled to weigh in here. The reason that Michael decided to move on from his relationship with Kay was because he was no longer the same man that she fell in love with. If you remember at the wedding, he says, "That's my family. It's not me." Well, after killing Sollozzo and McCluskey, it IS him. He makes the assumption that Kay, being from a different world, would no longer want to be with him.

When he falls in love with Appollonia, it is a completely different kind of love. He loved Kay for her intelligence and independence, as well as his physical attraction to her (which was partially based on her looking "different"). His relationship with Appollonia was based her looks, her simpleness and her understanding of the man he had become and the life he had embraced.

When he gets back together with Kay, he explains to her that, if they do marry, their relationship will be changed. It will no longer be a partnership, as it used to be. He can't confide in her as he once did.

She accepts those rules, thinking that their life will go back to "normal" when the Corleone Family goes legitimate. When that doesn't happen as Michael promised, her anger and resentment build and their marriage is destroyed.

Appollonia would never have expected to be a partner. For the man that Michael became, she may have made a better wife in that she would have been much more complacent in that role of obedient wife.

I don't think it was maybe her beauty (or lack of it as some of the women think) that maybe attracted Michael to her, (although you have to read the book to get the WHOLE story of their relationship) it was also her youth, innocence and the virginal aura around her, plus I that she was totally UNTOUCHABLE until after their marriage. The old style Sicilian courtship, although a fast one it was, he had with her was quite different from what he had with Kay.
I think he did love Apollonia more than Kay but I think he did love Kay also, but not with quite the same intensity. Question is, did she love him too or just settle for him in the end? Also, would she have liked knowing she was his 2nd choice?

Gottcha.

Oops! I never meant my words to be a serious attack against either Kay or Apollonia. Sometimes my humor is a bit weird and not read right, and that's my fault. My point was they both were potentially good wives with each their own quirks.

True Apollonia couldn't hear the conversation, but certainly she'd understand that it was important, right? You're all right when you say she would have NEVER had an abortion. I'll let it be known that, believe it or not, I've always liked Apollonia better than Kay.

Michael being Michael I am really surprised by his restraint in that he didn't have Kay killed, wife or no wife, after she told him she'd had an abortion and not a miscarriage. Heck, I mean he had his own brother killed! I don't doubt that Sonny would have killed his wife if she'd done that to him! I mean, what else besides having an affair could she have done to have really gotten to him, except maybe turned "Rat".

For the record, Appolonia had to have heard the conversation because the car door was open and Don Tomansino was leaning against it for support. Even if she could not hear a conversation taking place, it does not take much gray mater to realize that if you see two people standing next to one another, chance are they are talking to one another.

I don't know if I just find Appolonia annoying or the Sicilan sequences anoying. I think they are the weakest scenes in the entire movie. The movie burst right along with hits, murder plots, a**kicking. Then we see the draggging shots of Sicily. It seems to break to Sicily every time we see a powerful sequence (Sonny's death, Carlos a**kicking etc )

Sicilly was so boring for me because Michael did not hold the leading character at that time. It was the badass Sonny that my eyes was drawn to. We can argue that Sonny may not be a good Don, but he was very exciting to watch. Sonny explodes on the screen! We don't know what he is gonna to do or say. I could care less about Michael's 'pee-pee', Sicilan martial rituals (even thought a lot of the girls were boom-booming the GIs), or Appolonia. I was more interested in the gangland wars and the Don.

I suppose it's all a matter of taste and opinion as to which parts of the movie was most appealing. I loved the whole movie, but in my opinion, I thought the Sicilian portion was a beautiful addition to the movie. Doesn't make me right or wrong, just my opinion.

Also, even tho we never knew Appolonia that well, I just can't believe she'd be so cold as to ignore the news Michael was given, had she heard it or suspected it was news of serious nature. Again my opinion for what it's worth. Like I said there is no right or wrong in these opinion questions.

TIS

I agree Itailan, and I think it would be pointless of having a Godfather website if everyone did agree or their is only one correct answer.

Thank you Deathkiss for proving we CAN agree to disagree!! I'm with you it would be very boring if we all thought alike!!!

TIS

..just trying out my new facelift! Thanks once again Italian

Deathkiss, I didn't recognize you. My how you have changed. I know that face, but refresh my memory??? Who is it?

TIS

oh the men are going to start talking about the "scene" in 'Fast Times at Ridgemont High' again!

Hey! What the hells goin on ova here!?
Everybody's jumpin all over Appolonia! So what if she honked the damn horn while Mike was talking. In life there are crucial moments when things like that happen. You could be laughing and joking and your husband could be on the phone hearing of his father's death. SHE DIDN'T KNOW. I'm sure she stopped honking when she heard what happened. She was a young girl who was MARRIED. She didn't know exactly how she was supposed to act thats why Michael was so patient with her.

Plus, we didn't see Mike And Appol's relationship with each other. We as an audience didn't get to see any of that. And yeah, boys will be boys, just as men will be men. If Mike thought he wasn't goin back to New York, of course he 's gonna wanna bang the thunderbolt. She was beautiful, she was young, she was a symbol of new beginnings and she made him happy.
And yeah, she was "previously un-banged". What more can I say.

Hey Tony!..you are damn good

I dont think Appolonia was "all that" in the film but I would have liked to have gotten to know her character a little better....maybe then I would have felt at least a little bad when she got blown to bits.
In the novel....does Michael tell Kay about his Marriage to Appolonia when he gets back from Sicily?

Pacinoprincess, you act as though the character Appolonia should be untouched and voided of adverse critisms, as if she was a saint or something. Sorry, but I did not find anything special about her. In fact, I thought her lady in waiting looked just as good as Appolonia. Appolonia was certianly not ugly, she was pretty just like Sonny's twins or even her lady in waiting.

Appolonia was somewhat attractive but an annoying character. I think if someone who only had two bodyguards around him 24/7, he would be attracted to the first young female that he sees. Heck! I think Michael would have been attracted to Whoopi Goldberg if she was there picking grapes.

Pacinoprincess, you act as though the character Appolonia should be untouched and voided of adverse critisms, as if she was a saint or something. Sorry, but I did not find anything special about her. In fact, I thought her lady in waiting looked just as good as Appolonia. Appolonia was certianly not ugly, she was pretty just like Sonny's twins or even her lady in waiting.

Appolonia was somewhat attractive but an annoying character. I think if someone who only had two bodyguards around him 24/7, he would be attracted to the first young female that he sees. Heck! I think Michael would have been attracted to Whoopi Goldberg if she was there picking grapes.

I think its Pheobe Cates.

No, i do not think she should be voided of criticisms, because after all, hopefully we remember, She's a ficticious character. But the point that I was trying to make was that Michael married her in Sicily because she was the way she was.She was a little girl, not an adult with adult mannerisms. She was in the grape field with little girls. But you are entitled to your opinion no matter what and I respect everyone here. And I hope Whoopi Goldberg was not in Sicily
picking grapes because it would have been frightening.

Hi,
It is Phoebe Cates.

Paul

...Pacinoprincess, you know that young girls, like appolonia should know not to interupt in grown folks conversations, especially with the the Don present. I can accept that explanation if Appolonia was 6 or 7, but 16! It was more than an interuption, she wanted the conversation to end so she can continue driving! and Hunking the horn because she was annoyed. Mike should have gotten in her ass right then! The boring Sicilian scenes would have been more tolorable.

DeathKiss, you're probably right. We are most likely in disagreement because of the mere fact that I loved scenes in Sicily and Appolonia was my favorite character next to Michael. That's all.

Kudos TIS!! you hit the nail right on the head with that post!

Not ALL guys think with the head of their dick!

It's nice to hear it from another woman's point of view.

I don't think its a right or wrong answer. the Sicilian scenes is my least favorite. And it is your favorite.

I too love the Sicilian scenes. They're not my favorites, but they're great. I'm a little older than Apollonia, and a lot less pretty. I thought she was genuenly a good girl and that Mike married her BECAUSE HE LOVED HER. Her blowing up made me feel horrible. But that voice...

Luca's right. I have to take it back. Not all men think with their "you-know-what"s... Some of them think with their stomachs. Men aren't as bad as everyone makes them out to be. *gives all the fellas a pat on the back*

Kudos TIS!! you hit the nail right on the head with that post!

Not ALL guys think with the head of their dick!

It's nice to hear it from another woman's point of view.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Oh come on... Not all BUT enough of them do tho....at one time or another. Thats Mans biggest weakness.....
...oh yea and eating, what do you women say...the way to a mans heart is thru....

Thanks Pastapunk I do love to eat that's the second best thing I can do with my mouth.

Luca, I'm all ears.....

Ok, pinching myself - back on topic...

#1 - I have always maintained there are different levels of love depending on where you are in your life. Some people go all their life in love with one person; some fall in love as often as changing clothes. Do you remember what puppy love felt in high school or college? Like you'd never love again - compare that love to the love you feel with a life partner later in life. And what about lust-love? Women think with their libido as well, it is not just men. Michael loved 2 different women in 2 different ways.

#2 - What was Michael's state of mind when he was in Sicily, after being through all he had been through. Ever hear of loving when emotionally vulnerable?

#3 - Who is to say one love in your life is better than another? Some people go through life with no good love in their life. Better more love than no love, I say.

And last point - I LOOOOOOVED the Sicily scenes.

I'm new!

Mike loved Kay, but he knew (rightfully so) that Kay would not fit into the lifestyle he was choosing when he told his father that he was with him now. Apolonia, having been born in Sicilly would have been familiar with the lifestyle and more accepting.

When he came back, I think he rightfully believed he was going to legitimize the family business. It's been a while since I read the book, so I could be wrong.

!!!

Oh, God... I can imagine her picking grapes... GOD HELP ME!

And, look! With that post, I'm a CAPO! YEAH! I'm happy.

Congratulations Anthony!!!!

TIS

Congratulations, Lombardi!! I would just like to state some things quickly again.

• Mike returned from the war, he's now in the cold, dreary chill of New England, at an Ivy League school.
• Now he was away from his family, his food and his women.
• In his lonliness he falls in love with a college girl who just HAPPENS to be a W.A.S.P. because not many Italian girls are there.
• Going with Kay is a result of the above as well as another act of rebellion against his father's traditions, and an effort to further distance himself from his family.
• Kay was not just a different culture, she was a different race. Mike didn't slap her when she admitted the abortion, he slapped her when she spoke with contempt about "...this Sicilian thing!"
• Mike told his father "I'm with YOU now", and that means in all ways.
• Even if Apollonia would have had a moustache , she brought the life and fun out of Mike, and she would have understood the life of "The Family".
• Mike resigned himself to Kay in order to have kids. There was affection but NO passion.
• He was thinking with his penis with KAY in college, NOT with his beautiful Sicilian, funloving woman, the symbol (Tony D said it well) of the purity of the traditional Sicilian life.

I won't say more.But I cannot believe this thread even got started... And let me be even more frank just to show you that I'm not a hard-hearted man, and it's not all dollars and cents. She was beautiful; she was young, she was innocent. She was the greatest--HEY HEY ...here I go again...lemme getta holda myself...I gotta go. Sorry.

Enough men bashing! Come on ladies, not all guys think with their "lower brains", and you know a lot of women, and you know what I'm talking about, follow the "any" man is better than no man philosphy of life.

Michael was just a guy who fell for a beautiful young girl and then married her. After she was sadly blown to bits, he went back to the States, waited at least a YEAR, then showed up unexpectedly to reclaim his 2nd choice Kay, who made him a good wife.

Would we women have been as polite as the guys have been if any of them had said "Kay followed HER pee-pee and made the bad mistake of ending up married to Michael."?

Hi,
Congrats Anthony.

Paul

Thanks...

Grazie, everyone... For the warm congradulation!

Awwww..Anthony, you made it to capo..will you still be my friend even though you're high up there?..
congratulations, my love.

Kay has a pee-pee?

Grazie, PP! My most loyal friend!

'Course, you'll still be my friend! Always and forever!

LMAO!!! Not THAT kind of "pee pee". *regrets using the term "pee pee" in the first place*

Sounds dumb calling it a "pee-pee" male or female,doesn't it? I was trying t make a point, that's all

just pulling your leg, i know what you meant . so i can honestly say i wouldn't say that Kay was thinking with her pee pee for marrying Michael . she wasn't really thinking too much about it which was her problem i think.

No Problem!

I kinda wonder if maybe she thought she was getting a bit up there age wise and there wasn't too many other offers coming her way so she just settled for him?

I mean really, he just disappeared for a whole year, didn't even try and contact her at all , then waits at least a yea or longer after he gets back to go and see her ! What would you have done?

Actually, I think he disappeared for 3 yrs! I wouldn't go back to someone who blew me off(and got married, although I guess she didn't know) for that long!

i don't think she settled for him (she was only 21 at the time, still hope yet even during those times). i believe she really loved him and love is blind. he was that mysterious dark handsome (but not tall ) guy from her past that swept her off her romantic silly feet so she overlooked all the warning signs.

i can't think of a man that i would go back with after the dumped me for 3 years AND married someone else. but alas, i never was a starry-eyed kind of girl. there is at least one mysterious dark handsome guy in my past and i'm so thankful i am not married to him!

I agree with both Undule8 and Saladbar. I wouldn't have gone back to a man who left me and disappeared for three years either. As I said before, that's longer than I would wait for any man. I'm also glad to know that there are at least a few of us who sympathize with Kay and who aren't caught up in that "Apollonia was so perfect and beautiful" crap. To tell you the truth, I think that whole "thunderbolt" thing was crap too, and the scenes in Sicily in Part 1 are my least favorite.

Yep, Michael was horney and selfish...and I guess Kay was just ignorant.

...although I might go back for Al Pacino LOL

I know i would not have gone with a man who left me after 3 years. Then, have the NERVE to tell me that he's been back for about a year without calling or writing! Am I suppose to believe that he needs me?? I will be a fool to believe that crap! Michael lied to her from the time he returned to Sicily! Its her fault for believing in that crap...

What really urked me was Kay coming over his PARENTS home trying to hunt Michael down. It showed Kay as a desperate woman. If ANY MAN ever told me that he did not know I will ever see him again and we are engaged, our relationship is over! and you he need not be alarmed that I will even try to contact him again.

WOW! Yet another Phoebe Cates!! I'm going Good avatar, deathkiss!

Regarding Kay...you're right. But who would've taken the poor plain Jane anyway?? She would've died an old maid.

Thanks Snake,
You know if i had written the script or book, I think it would have been best if Michael met another woman to marry. I personally believe that the Appolonia junket was crap. And Kay, a mature and educated young lady, behaving the way that she did was not believable . I am sorry, I don't think Michael was truly in love with two different women in different ways. If he was truly in love with Kay, he would not have married Appolonia, regardless of the circumstances. And falling in love due to a 'thunderbolt' is a condition that was imagined in Mario Puzo's mind. Have any of you GF fans ever heard of it other than in the Godfather?
to me thunderbolt=sex not love

In the book she went over to the house after the police contacted her. The police told her about what Michael did, and she went over there to find out what's going on.

that does put a different spin on it. i would want to know the truth for some closure on the affair. not that anyone would actually say yes, Michael is a murderer but you can assess how the household acts about the accusation.

Kay should have let it all go, but as i keep saying love can put blinders on even the smart ones.

Isn't that true about the blinders!

And actually, his Mom pretty much told her he was a murderer.

I have to admit, Kay really fell hard for Michael. And I don't think she ever fell out of love with him. How many MARRIED women who will prance around the countryside with their ex? Kay was the only personal attachment Michael really had. Its a sad situation and in a strange way, I think they deserve one another.

Plain Jane or not, at least in the novel anyways, aside from a little griping she made Michael a good, Catholic wife.

Marrying for looks isn't a real good idea, look as an example to Fredo in GF2 ending up married to Deanna and to Johnny Fontaine who left his faithful wife for a beautiful slut.

I think that he truly did love two different women in two different ways. The book even points out Michael's amazement that his love for Appollonia had nothing to do with his love for Kay. His relationship with Kay was built on his love for her intelligence and wit (a true partnership) as well as the fact that she was "different". In the book, his love for Appollonia was based on his obsessive need to possess her in every way.

I think you explained their relationships PERFECTLY!

Mille Grazie!!!

Processing is different than loving someone. And if he truly loved Kay, why did it take him three years to seek her out? If he was solely interested in her.
The New Hampshire scene was not a loving reconcilation between kay and Michael. It sounded like more of an acquision. In other words, it was if Michael was saying, "look, I am working for my father so I need a family, children (heirs). This scene reminds me of Napoleon marrying an 18 year old Austrian so he can have heirs. It has nothing to do with loving someone.

"Pheobe Cates should have played Mary Corleone"

Deathkiss: Phoebe Cates is a good 8 years older than Sofia Coppola and in the early 90's was probably too busy making those Gremlins and Drop Dead Fred movies.

And speaking as someone who feels a close, personal bond with her character in Fast Times at Ridgemont High, if you are gonna be a fan, at least spell her name right!

I loved "Drop Dead Fred", "Princess whatever you call it"... and the "Gremlins". I haven't seen Fast Times, though..

I agree his proposal to Kay wasn't very romantic. He didnt' sound very loving. *monotone* "I need you. I want you. I love you. Marry me. It's an offer you can't refuse." He should have used Clemenza's line.

Call me what you will, but I really could wait for a man for 3 years. Especially if he's as hot as Michael Corleone. *wiggles eyebrows*

i'll call you romantic . i think you can say that in your teens, when your whole life still spans ahead. after 25 you don't feel like waiting. oh well, i have been accused of not being romantic enough. one of the many things i'm being accused of lately .

romantic or not i would have liked a better proposal from Michael too. geez.

Ohh CAT FIGHT!!!
FYI: Mary Corleone character is suppose to be in her mid 20's, and I believe Pheobe was in her mid to late 20's in 1989--the date of filming, so Pheobe is age approprate.

Gremlins and Drop Dead Fred was made in the mid 80's, so she should be available.
Speaking of spelling, I find it amusing that a person who has a "..close personal bond" spells her name EXACTLY like I spell it. So, are we BOTH spelling her name incorrectly? I am not a huge fan of Pheobe Kline, but you don't seem to know a lot about her, I mean KEY FACTS!
...have a wonderful day La Dolce Vita
..end of cat fight! <meow>

I must have dyslexia because your spelling of Pheobe does not = my spelling of Phoebe, but oh well. Details. Not gonna bother going into the other facts.

Wasn't trying to be insulting, just stating the obvious.

Me- still having a wonderful day. Thanks.

I agree!! I think is will be unwise for you to go into into details, especially when you don't know what you are talking about.
Wasn't trying to be insulting, just stating the obvious.

LDV -> <-deathkiss

Reow reow! Come on.. ladies, I know you're bigger than this... besides... it's just Feeby Kates!

I guess as a teen I feel it's wiser to wait than mess around with any ol' guy that says he "loves" me. But Kay was still pretty young too. And Apollonia was just happy to move out of her parents' house.

I am of the opinion that Michael did love both Kay and Appollonia, but unlike most people marriage and family were not as high on the priority list as his business and strive for power. Yet, I think even tho he loved Kay, he probably considered the fact that it would look good to have a wife/kids to give the appearance of a "good family man."

I too, would not have waited for Michael. However, Kay knew what kind of family he came from and she chose to wait for him and then later she chose to marry him even after he told her he was in the family. I don't know if blame is the right word, because we all make wrong moves and do stupid things when it comes to love. I prefer to call it a "life experience," not a good experience but still a life experience.

I still say, even though both ladies were good wives to Michael (I know we didn't get to see Appollonia as a wife for long, but I am judging by her culture/heritage at that time in Sicily), Appollonia would have made a better wife for Michael, for the simple reason that she wouldn't give him "flack"....I ;am not saying that made her a better wife than Kay, but the better choice for Michael. Sicilian women (like mama), would know when to keep quiet and when to speak. And to be married to Michael I think you'd have to understand and accept that.


TIS

It seems to be other women who are most critical of Appolonia.
I think they are just jealous of her beauty and identify more with Kay because she is more of an 'everywoman', not too beautiful but not too ugly either.

oh yeah, that's it.

you know i hear that argument a lot whenever when a woman criticizes another woman. it always has to be a jealous thing rather than just an opinion .

i'm probably more like Apple than Kay anyway. not one ounce of WASP in me.

I stand by my statement.
You're entitled to your "opinion" but judging by all the posts on this thread and others most of the people who are bad mouthing Appolonia are women, rather than men.
You have to ask yourself, why this is?

well because this is a bulletin board and she is a hot mama and there are red blooded men here! i'm, at least, trying to be objective. if i were simply jealous of her because of her beauty then i wouldn't have even time to post! i'd be too busy sitting her being jealous of 99% of the women in movies/tv. i recognize beauty in LOTS of women and like them for it not critical of them for it. that would be a very shallow way to always have a debate (i guess that is what you consider me as, a shallow jealous woman). if i am critical is it because of other things.

perhaps in your little study (not a great random sample) all the women here hate her, but please don't lump me in the generalization that i dislike her because her beauty (and i don't really dislike her or Kay) is far greater than mine. i would have to hate LDV, Capacino and PastaPunk too those awful wenches !

now i really have to get back to work.

Gotta give you credit, Aberdeen...you may have caught on to something (though I doubt many of the ladies would admit it - even to themselves).

I love how some are obsessed with this 'thunderbolt' thing. Yes, Michael & Appolonia were struck big time when they first ran into each other. But it's not as though they ran off together that night. They married after a respectful meeting with her family, with her father's permission and a respectable courtship. I don't think there was anything selfish about it. He saw her, wanted to meet her, got to know her, loved her, married her.

I do not think this storyline would have work had Appolonia been described as a homely or plain girl, or had a dog of an actress been cast in the part.

Apple

Uh ohhh... first the ladies fighting with eachother over Feeby, and now womankind discovered to be shallow. Who'da thunk??

Aberdeen, I see your point, but I'm sorry... jealousy is an unfair accusation. Are you JEALOUS of all good looking men you can say something bad about? I certainly doubt it.

Would it be better if we only put down UGLY women? That way we'll be jealous of ugly chicks as well? I'm really sick of being called jealous just because I can find faults in beautiful women. Jealousy really isn't the reason. Now you tell me WHY some men just can't understand that?

(p.s. Welcome, Aberdeen! I hope you or anyone else will not find my post rude. This is just my opinion...
Also... I sincerely think I AM jealous of Saladbar and AppleOnYa, who I can't think of anything bad to say about even though they are both very beautiful...)

i am a girl, and though my face may not look like Apollonia's, i am not the least bit jealous of her beauty.

and i don't think Michael's relationship with Apollonia was based on lust, or anything that can be labelled as "improper". as the others have said, there was the proper introduction to the family, visits to her home, courtship (the walk with the whole family behind them, then Apollonia almost trips), etc. everything was decent, and there was courtship.

i believe Michael really loved Kay, even while in Sicily. but more often than not, long-distance relationships don't last. it's very difficult! and in their case, they couldn't even communicate with each other, so there was no long-distance relationship to work on, in the first place. Apollonia just came at the right place and the right time.

Hey cut Mike some slack! He wasnt exactrly kicking up his heels for all those many months he was in Sicily, and the way things were going, I think he realized that he would either be there a long time and/or once he got back to New York he would be in the family business and Kay would have moved on. I think he was struck by a thunderbolt when he saw Appolonia and so was she, and had she lived he would have been content to have an obedient Italian wife instead of some shrill American who was always carping at him for not becoming "legitimate" quickly enough, and who ran off to have an abortion because Mike had a "Sicilian Thing," which had to be stopped. Notice Kay didnt mind living in luxury though.
Moreover, Michael was back a year or more before he even bothered to contact Kay, so I have always wondered if he wasnt exploiting her just a little.
In fact I think they were exploiting each other, but thats another thread.