Peter and Sal breaking off

How would Michael just let Clemenza and Tessio break off and form their own Families? If they did that, surely they would ake their own people under their regimes with them, thus leaving the Corleones with no manpower at all?

Of course, Michael knew all along that this wouldn't happen, but was offering them this chance realistic? Has this happened to caporegimes in real life?

Mick

It did happen. Clemenza formed his own family, witch was later controlled by Pentangeli. Although the family "still had the name of Corleone". The reason why Tessio didn't form a family of his own, is that he sold out, and died.

The Corleones wouldn't be without men. Remember, that Hagen asks Mike why "Rocco Lampone is forming a secret regime"

Mick, bear in mind that, even before the Don died, Michael was making plans to move the family to Nevada, where they could be "legitimate." And, ever since he returned from Sicily, Michael had been planning his revenge on the other NYC families. So, it's not so difficult to imagine that Michael would agree to leaving the NYC "olive oil business" to Clemenza (and Tessio, if he hadn't sold out). He was going to be "legitimate" (or at least what he considered "legitimate"); they'd have to deal with the aftermath of his massacre of the other families. And fight each other, if it came to that. And, as Don Larzono pointed out, he didn't really cut his ties to NYC: he was still pulling the strings there--Pentangeli was subordinate to him.

What would be the use of denying them to start their own family? They were the Don's friends for years, it would simply be impolite to not let them form their families! That could also lead to them setting Mike up for assassination, as poor impatient Tessio did. Remember, "All I'm saying Mike is just take off the handcuffs." They were eager to be freed.
And of course there were plenty of business benefits as you lot have explained.
As for Tessio and Pete taking the blame for the five family massacre, that's not really relevant, the murders were pulled off so neatly that the police couldn't pin the blame on any of them. But they all knew it was Mike who organised the murder. They just had no evidence.
Justice is a very funny thing...

In that scene, Mike does say that he doesn't want to give Barzini an 'excuse to start fighting'. Allowing Tessio & Clemenza to break off and recruit men before the move to Nevada might do just that.

Mike also says that "There are things being negotiated now that are gonna solve all your problems and answer all your questions. That's all I can tell you now..."

In my opinion, both Michael and Vito KNEW that one of these men would eventually end up turning on the Corleones. They had to drop the bait, then wait to see who would take it.

Apple

In that conference scene, you must remember, that Tessio was complaining about "Barzini chisleing in to my territory and we do nothing about it". It wasnt until Michael denied their request to recruit new men that Clemenza and Tessio asked for permission to form their own families. Remember the dialogue:

CLemenza: Godfather, you once said the day would come that Tessio and me could form our own family, until this day I would never have asked. I must ask your permission to start our own families.

Vito: Do you trust my judgement, then be a freind to Michael

Tessio & Clemenza were pros, they had been around the block.

They were already frustrated at the 'handcuffs' Michael had placed on them. They did not like the boss's kid, former civilian, calling the shots. They didn't trust that Michael knew what he was doing.

They knew walking into that office that they would be forbidden to recruit new men and they'd be asking to form their own families. What they probably did not count on was Vito backing Michael so completely.

This was not an impromptu request.

Apple

Researcher, let me tell you what it was all about: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Mike & Vito weren't concerned about manners, they were concerned about dollars and cents. At the time it wasn't in the best interest (read: financial best interest) of the family, so Mike refused. Period.

Has anything like this happened in real life?

It just seems a bit foolish for a Don to let his caporegimes go. But, as so many others have said: he knew in advance that Tessio and Clemenza joining Barzini et al was impossible, should his plan to wipe them out succeed.

Mick

I don't think Clemenza did form his own Family, but was free to operate on his own. Mike said that the Family is still called Corleone to Pantangeli. Clemenza just ran a branch of the Corleone Family, but still served under Mike. When Clemenza past on Pantangeli took his postion and was either a Caporegime or an underboss to Mike. Also, Cicci, at the senate Committee, even says that Mike is the head of his Family meaning that Mike is still his bigger boss.

I agree with Boss of Bosses, that I always understood it to mean they formed their own families but were still Corleones.
Although they may be apart form the Corleones geographically, they'd still have to kick upstairs to Mike from the earnings while still having a day to day independence.

FH

[/QUOTE]Researcher, let me tell you what it was all about: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Mike & Vito weren't concerned about manners, they were concerned about dollars and cents. At the time it wasn't in the best interest (read: financial best interest) of the family, so Mike refused. Period. [/QB][/QUOTE]

I do actually know that, but with the Don there would be a respectful motive involved. With Michael, probably not, he's more business like. But disallowing them to form their own families could easily generate dislike in Tessio and Clemenza, which would be very bad for financial relations between the two.

For what it's worth, in the book at the Don's funeral: "The funeral was royal. The five families sent their Dons and caporegimes as did the Tessio and Clemenza FAMILIES"

I remember that line from the Novel. That must be some kind of error because they don't have their own Families. Also I noticed a couple of spelling errors as well

maybe they are subsidery families under the Corleone banner

Micheal kills all the heads of the other 4 families. So Micheal should be capo di tutti capi (boss of all bosses). If he was a capo di tutti capi he could do the same thing Maranzano did.
Micheal arranged a meeting.
Micheal Corleone began the meeting by explaining how this new organization would run, that he would be the boss with five specific lieutenants below him (setting up the 5-family structure). These lieutenants would be: Peter Clemenza, Fredo Corleone, Sally Tessio, Rocco Lampone and Al Neri.

Is it possible?

Fredo would have never been put into a senior position like that within the family.

The idea would be to have someone from each of the five families be part. That way everyone would stay in line. Not just everyone from Michaels family alone,

According to the corleone crime family graphic, Fredo was an Underboss, more powerful then the caporegimes, although it certainly didnt seem it in the film.

And also Tessio was killed just after the massacre, so it unlikely he would have figured in mikes plans

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The family heirachy u talk about from part 2 was mainly just how the feds thought the family was administered and was not actually the true make up.

Fredo was definently not an underboss to Michael, infact Michael had no consiglierie or underboss, he was his own protege, his own man, and it was only him who knew of all the family's dealings.

The truth is we dont really know what position Fredo, Michael does mention 'Fredo and his men' when talking to HAgen early on, so he does have some sort of power in the family

I think Fredo "had men" just to make him feel good. Maybe a few accociates, but I doubt highly if he controlled any wiseguys.Remember in the boathouse-"Send Fredo off to do this,send Fredo off to do that,send Fredo off to run some Mickey Mouse nightclub somewhere,send Fredo off to pick someone up at the airport"
The feds thought that because Fredo was the boss's brother, that naturally he was an underboss.

well he ran the mickey mouse nightclub, and i suppose was the boss of everyone there

Well lets not forget that either Cicci or Franky gave the current ranks and structure of the Corleone Family. So one of them (or both) must have thought that Fredo was an underboss. Fredo was never an underboss and Hagen is not longer Consigliere. Neri, Rocco, and Pantangeli were all labeled caporegimes, which is correct

Hagen WAS consilgieri according to the graphic, i think Michael considered him an advisor just not on the illegal stuff, he wanted to protect tom (thats boefroe he turned totally evil after Fredo's betrayal)

Frank Pentangeli was the succesor of Peter Clemenza. And Peter Clemenza (after the shooting of the heads of the other 4 families) had his own family. And Micheal said to Frank Pentangeli: "Your family still has the name Corleone. So run it like a Corleone". That means Frank Pentangeli had a family so he couldn't be a caporegime.

Frank WAS a caporegime under Michael, but it was covered to make it look like his own family seeing as Mike was now in Nevada, thats why Frank changed his story and claimed he had his own family in the senate hearing

Micheal said to Pentangeli that Clemenza promissed some things to the Rosato's, but Frankie didn't gave them.
But i don't get it..Why would Clemenza give something to the Rosato's. Aren't they caporegimes of another family?

But I still don't get another thing. Had Clemenza ever got his own family?

No. Clemenza still served Mike. Pete was just in charge of the illegal operations of the Corleone Family, while most of the Family was legit in Nevada. And when he said "your Family is still Corleone" he meant that Franky was still one of his henchmen. After Clemenza died, Franky took charge of his regime. Frank Pantangeli is a Caporegime. Even the Crime Family chart said so.

all very true, i wouldnt say however that the Nevada operations were totally legit, especially their gaming licences for the casino's