Vito's third slip

Vito made several slips that nearly cost him his life. Solozzo put his finger on one when he told Tom after the shooting: “The Don, rest in peace, was slippin’. Ten years ago, could I have gotten to him?” He clearly identified Vito’s complacency as his opportunity to get to him.

The second was sending Luca on that ridiculous mission to Tattaglia with the idiotic story that he was “not too happy with our family.” Tatt and Sol saw right through it. Vito handed them his “most valued friend” on a silver platter. I started a thread on it here:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=444618&Searchpage=1&Main=16277&Words=%2Bsilver+%2Bplatter&Search=true#Post444618

I want to add a third slip: Not identifying Barzini as his main enemy in the war, and the Don best positioned to profit from it. He told Tom after the Commission meeting: “Tattaglia’s a pimp—he could never have outfought Santino. But I didn’t know until this day that it was Barzini all along.”

Uh, Vito…Tatt was always a pimp. f you knew that Tattaglia, the pimp, could never have outfought Santino, then who else could have been providing most of the force behind the war that had proven to be long and costly to the Corleones? And who was in the best position to come out on top? Barzini was younger than the other Dons, seeing himself as waiting in the wings to become Numero Uno. The war was the perfect opportunity to weaken the Corleones and to step ahead. All of that should have been obvious to Vito all along. And if it had been, Vito could have advised Sonny to focus his forces on Barzini, which could have saved Sonny’s life and assured a Corleone victory.
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Your thoughts?

I don't think Vito really saw Luca as his most valued friend - he didn't fit very well into the Corleone future. It's Vito's insight that Luca was essentially suicidal, and I think Vito was long resigned to the likelihood that the day would come when Luca did not return.

Again, I think the "Barzini all along" refers to a time when Barzini was manipulating both Sol and Tat, but hadn't yet aligned with them, even secretly.

I agree Turnbull. Vito was nobody's fool, and the fact that a Don with his experience and insight missed the mark on Barz speaks volumes about him losing his edge.
He never respected Tattaglia as a true Don, and had to know that there was other involvement in his drug business.
The Luca mission aside,after the attempt on his life,and the murder of Santino,Vito had to know it couldn't just be Tatt.
He should have seen,in 10 ft high neon letters "BARZINI"
I find it almost beyond belief that it wasn't until the meeting that his eyes were finally opened.

I disagree. To Vito, the Dons' meeting was confirmation that it was Barzini all along, not a revelation.

Also, per the novel, Luca's tet a tet with the Tattaglia's took place over several months and not in a singular event as portrayed in the movie.

Barzini well he -- he played this one beautifully.

I reckon, they deliberately concealed the Tattaglia connection so when Tom unearthed it, he would stop digging further which is exactly what happened

Vito Corleone: And what is the interest for the Tattaglia Family?
Sollozzo: (to Tom) My compliments -- You got me there but smug inside that it was playing out exactly as they had planned

I am a little worried about this Sollozzo fella. I want you to find out what he's got under his fingernails, ya'know but I too reckon, it wasn't until the meeting that his eyes were finally opened. “Tattaglia’s a pimp—he could never have outfought Santino. But I didn’t know until this day that it was Barzini all along.”

He was complacent, careless, underestimating Barzini
1. believing his no is final and they would just give up the lucrative drug business
2. sending Luca on that ridiculous mission to Tattaglia -- idiotic
3. and keeping his underboss and consigliere totally in the dark about it
4. not telling them about his no decision before the meeting
5. didn't boost up his security
6. didn't suspect why Paulie kept falling sick
7. And Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well -- his driver / bodyguard

Luca is the valued fear factor even into the Corleone future.
They need him, to help them get in and out of the car, carry their briefcase!

Tom: even Sonny won't be able to call off Luca Brasi.
Tom: Now what about Luca? Sollozzo didn't seem to be worried about Luca...
Sonny: if Luca sold out we're in a lot of trouble, believe me. A lot of trouble.

Sollozzo
1. Sollozzo was piling on, the flattery on Vito and Tom too
2. Sollozzo inwardly feeling smug that the Corleones have no idea about Barzini connection that it was Barzini all along
3. My take, Sollozzo / Barzini strategy was to let Tom discover the Tattaglia connection, hoping Tom would then stop digging deeper
4. Tom obliged!

Tom

• Tom not digging deep enough to unearth the Barzini connection with Sollozzo's narcotics trade deal
• Tom obviously stopped when Tom unearthed the “always a pimp Tatt” connection and looked pretty pleased with his Gotcha! handiwork when Sollozzo said “My compliments”

Vito
Slip-up Vito's worry was for the wrong reasons “finding out what they had under their fingernails” whilst Barzini, Sollozzo and the other families were plotting to kill Vito

Sure thing Vito “was complacent, careless” in “Not identifying Barzini” as the force behind Sollozzo and Tattaglia even “after the attempt on his life” which never could have happened unless sanctioned by Barzini, second in the pecking order “waiting in the wings to become Numero Uno”

among others,

• the minting money Narcotics deal was just between Sollozzo, pimp Tattaglia and the Corleones
• Barzini wouldn't want a piece of this lucrative deal?
  - 30% share alone should be three, four million dollars just in the first year
• top narcotics man Sollozzo would just accept Vito's refusal No repercussions
  Sollozzo “I cannot allow another man to hold me back” from my dirty drugs business.... ah -- a little dangerous
  After all -- Sollozzo is not a Communist!
• sending Luca over to Tattaglias “on that ridiculous [and suicide] mission” would “find out what they had under their fingernails”
  Corleones feared Enforcer, one man killing machine ended up Sleeping with the fishes
• kept Vito's Under Boss Sonny and Consigliere Tom, totally in the dark about Luca's "ridiculous mission"
• didn't up his personal protection
• didn't smell a rat when Paulie was calling in sick
  interestingly, Paulie's Boss Clemenza didn't either
• Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well -- his driver / bodyguard
  Fredo stayed in the car!

Vito, Dead man with or without Sonny's gaffe However Vito could have avoided being shot Five times by not buying oranges!

despite telling them his no answer before the meeting may have prevented Sonny's gaffe

• Michael's slip-up

Michael didn't pass on Sollozzo's "What happened [attempts on Vito's Life] was unavoidable I had the unspoken support of the other Family Dons" to Tessio when Tessio picked Michael up after Michael had killed Sollozzo and McCluskey

If Michael had, Everyone would have seen,in 10 ft high neon letters "BARZINI"
Michael doesn't pay attention to Sollozzo -- he's under too much mental anguish -- is no excuse!

telling them his no answer before the meeting may have prevented Sonny's gaffe

[/quote]

I wondered about that, too. Vito had obviously decided against Sol even before he heard his proposal. The novel tells us that Vito told Tom, at Connie's wedding, that Sol would propose "an infamia." When Tom went over his notes on Sol before the meeting, Vito said: "Do you have it in your notes that Solozzo made his living before the war in prostitution? As the Tattaglias do now. Write it down before you forget."

So, why did he have the meeting with Sol, and why did he have everyone present for it? I'm guessing two reasons. First, he wanted to appear "reasonable" to Sol and to Tattaglia. Refusing to hear Sol out would have been gratuitously insulting to both. Second, he wanted everyone to hear his "no" and his reasons, together and at the same time, so they'd all be witnesses his "no"--and to each others' hearing that "no"--to discourage them from trying to do a deal with Sol on their own, or to start dealing drugs with someone else. Vito wanted everyone to know, unambiguously, his opposition to drugs--and why he was opposed.

As Lana and Lou posted,

exactly instead believing the minting money Narcotics deal was just between Sollozzo, pimp Tattaglia and the Corleones


He did ask Freddy if he wants me to get a different bodyguard and he said "no."

Paulie was considered reliable and getting the job done without gonna be carried away as he did the Bonasera assignment for which he was duly rewarded and was on the rise but for A Fistful of Dollars -- he threw it all away Exterminated

Sollozzo thinks he can kill Sonny's father for refusing his dirty drugs business.... ah -- a little dangerous and he would be even more hot for the same deal

That's the Mafia Modus Operandi

Sollozzo didn't reveal the Tattaglia connection when seeking his meeting with Vito letting Tom discover the connection “My compliments” even otherwise why would "always a pimp" Tattaglia's recommendation carry any weight

Was having Tessio present at the meeting another Vito slip-up?
Vito's strategy been deliberately keeping Tessio under wraps and Tessio outwardly operating as an 'independent' Family, distanced from the Corleones so that the other Families wouldn't know the Full strength of Vito's Caporegime Yet....

Besides this united front makes Luca's -- breakaway -- mission even more ridiculous and idiotic indeed

Family man Vito such aversion to prostitution but Sonny with wife and kids, can play “all that comedy with that young girl” as long as Sonny made no gaffes affecting their business

in the novel: How did Vito unearth but Tom missed that Solozzo made his living before the war in prostitution? As the Tattaglias do now.
Did he conduct his own separate inquiries? So both stopped short -- that it was Barzini all along.”

That was just Sol's way of buttering up Tom--making him seem like he was a brilliant investigator. In reality, Sol would never have gotten an audience with Vito if he wasn't vouched for by another of the Five Families.


"Tessio under wraps" was a creature of the novel, not a point made in the film. Vito needed Tessio present to hear his unequivocal "no" same as the others,

The novel says Tom knew about Sol and prostitution but left it out his report to Vito because he thought it had no bearing on the drugs deal. He felt the rebuke Vito intended when Vito said, "write that down before you forget." The novel also says that Vito was "notoriously straight-laced in matters of sex," which is probably the real reason Tom didn't mention Sol and prostitution--all the more reason why Tom deserved Vito's rebuke.

Barzini glaringly obvious second big force, his main enemy. Vito slip Not identifying that it was Barzini all along.”

Vito was "notoriously straight-laced in matters of sex," but Sonny with wife and kids, can play “all that comedy with that young girl”

Thanks Turnbull So in the novel: there was no “My compliments”
Tattaglia vouched for Sollozzo and then conspired with Barzini, Sollozzo and the other Families to murder Vito Nice!

• saving Sonny’s life

I doubt anyone would have seen it coming from Carlo
Also as Tom said "Things are starting to loosen up a little bit" perhaps lulling everyone into a false sense of security
Besides Sonny was charging out like an enraged bull.... I doubt even Luca could have stopped him

Thanks also for clarifying “Tessio under wraps”

I also think that, even in the novel, the mysterious Tessio was mostly a creature of the 1930s. Vito's main purpose in giving Tessio a free hand was to minimize contacts between Tessio and Clemenza. That purpose would remain even after a couple of wars had revealed that Vito and Tessio moved hand-in-glove.

They knew as they were chiseling his territories

in the film: Vito saw Sollozzo because he heard that he's a serious man, to be treated with respect. But uh, I must say "no" to you --

from Vito's vs Michael's caporegime Thread
Carlo thinks he can lure Sonny to his murder and somehow end up as Michael's right hand man in Nevada

Can anyone approach a Don's Consigliere and request a meeting with the Don without another Don [even a lowly pimp Tattaglia....] vouching for them? Have I got a deal for you!

Also how do they approach the first Don -- How was Sollozzo able to meet up with Barzini / Tattaglia?
Was it because Barzini / Tattaglia were lower in the pecking order and Sollozzo was able to just front up and knock on their door not dissimilar to Roth's open house!

Why was Fredo carrying a Gun? Sonny never did Lucky! for Carlo....

I've often thought that Sol would have first approached Barzini first with his deal. Sol would have figured that Vito was already on top, with businesses that were a lot safer than drugs. But Barzini--younger than the other Dons, chafing to be Numero Uno, would have had the most to gain in a deal with Sol. Barzini would have told Sol that he still needed Vito's money and influence. "Go to Tattaglia--he's a pimp, Vito's worried about him. Tell Tatt anything, but I'll be your silent partner." If Vito said yes, Barzini would get silently rich on Vito's money and influence--and Vito wouldn't even know he was making his arch-rival richer and more powerful.

No high ranking Mafia guy ever carries a gun--too easy for any cop to arrest him for possession of a deadly weapon, just like a common criminal. Fredo was carrying that day because he had to bodyguard Vito in Paulie's absence--and for the dramatic effect when he fumbles the gun as the two guys shoot Vito.

We have to account for Sollozzo's statement to Tom, "The Tattaglia Family stands behind me with all their people."
For Sollozzo, there's no downside at that point to saying that Barzini is with him. Sollozzo wants to look as big as possible. On the other end, Barzini telling Sollozzo, "I'm with you, but let's keep it between us," should have been a sign to Sol that he was being set up to serve as cannon fodder. So that statement only works if Barzini is not on board yet. It makes sense that he joins the group when Cuneo and Stracci do, after the police captain is killed.

I don't know what to think about Barzini being behind Sollozzo from day one (or nearly day one). On this Board we've never settled the question about the benefit to anyone of killing Vito. So, I tend to think that Barzini might have been a late comer to Sollozzo's attempted deal.

By the way, the novel tells us that Vito used Fredo as a bodyguard, so he would be carrying a gun. Paulie was Vito's driver.

Another Vito slip? It seems, Vito had no suspicions of Barzini as the force behind Sollozzo and small potatoes Tattaglia until the Peace meeting

Sollozzo told Michael "What happened [attempts on Vito's Life] was unavoidable I had the unspoken support of the other Family Dons"

Whilst when Barzini actually came on board is open to debate -- my take, same as Turnbull's that Barzini was in, from day one
Also, I doubt Vito's murder would have been attempted unless sanctioned by Barzini, second in the pecking order though not a smart move! -- Killing the goose that they needed to lay them, the golden egg

If they can't talk business with hothead Sonny, how do they think? those politicians can? or Sonny himself can with those politicians?
No nickels and dimes in Sonny's pocket!

Fredo as Vito's bodyguard -- The Don was really slippin'

Then Fredo must have been licensed to carry firearms

I reckon, Vito's money was to bind him to the deal and every player would have had to contribute their own money, binding and bonding them together. Have I got a deal for you! What we are really after is your influence -- the nickels and dimes you carry in your pocket

Was Barzini slippin' too? or It's a smart move --

Did he think because Tattaglia's a pimp, Vito's not worried about him and may share his influence, may not if he knew Barzini is the force behind
1. he anticipated Vito's refusal regardless as he was already on top, with safer businesses
2. it was his cunning ruse, to create the opportunity to kill Vito off
3. Sollozzo and Tattaglia the scapegoat
4. Sonny would go after them and sooner self-destruct
5. what can Tessio and that Fat Clemenza do with Sonny as the Don
6. nickels and dimes in Barzini's pocket! Numero Uno

However it will leave with one little technical problem. Ahh -- This pulling off a Roth only works if Luca is sleeping with the fishes and Vito doesn't survive the five shots same as if Michael hadn't survived the Tahoe shooting. Oh well --

They got him to lay the golden egg, at the Peace meeting and without any share

• Sonny's self-destruction

Would Tessio seeing Sonny was running everything into the ground and pretty soon, there won't be one place in Brooklyn Tessio can hang his hat! switch sides to Barzini, to speed things up?

Tessio won't have to set Sonny up to be murdered as Tessio did with Michael. Sonny would do it all by himself!

What about Clemenza? There won't be nothing left to build on....

• Luca's ridiculous mission with that idiotic story

What if Vito had sent Sonny? instead of Luca, to “find out what they had under their fingernails”

Would Sonny have been more believable less ridiculous less idiotic -- considering Sollozzo saw Sonny was hot for his deal and may not have been suspicious?!

Sonny: “I am here purely on a [further] fact finding mission to try to convince Pop because I [and Tom who "knew it was the right thing to do"] believe narcotics is a thing of the future" or similar cover story! or that's an impossibility -- that could never happen....

that famous temper of yours, huh Sonny?

1. Tessio can't wait switch sides
2. Clemenza hate that goddamn Barzini! form own Family
3. Tom take his wife, family, and mistress -- and move 'em all to Las Vegas.
4. Fredo banging cocktail waitresses two at a time!
5. Michael finish College, marry Kay live happily for a hundred years -- the family with Mama
6. Carlo and Connie -- well -- was -- well --

Great points, all.

I wonder, if Vito had known it was Barzini "all along", what precisely could he have done differently?

I seem to recall, someone maybe Turnbull floated he could have had Sollozzo killed

He had the unspoken support of the other Family Dons" Vito have to answer for Sollozzo

So Fredo was no Gypsy!

Clemenza consulted with Fredo and went with Fredo's say-so

Fredo was not a wartime Corleone He was fine during peace times

I reckon, seeing his father shot, messed him up but he soon recovered banging cocktail waitresses two at a time!