Corleone sons

mustachepete's The Godfather Notebook thread:

From the Preface, and on the cover:

"When I realized that I was actually going to make a movie out of the novel 'The Godfather,' I sat down and began to read the book again, very carefully, my pencil poised. Upon that second reading, much of the book fell away in my mind, revealing a story that was a metaphor for American Capitalism in the tale of a great king with three sons:
1. the oldest was given his passion and aggressiveness;
2. the second his sweet nature and childlike qualities;
3. and the third, his intelligence, cunning and coldness;

Glad Vito's aggressiveness and coldness is acknowledged but sweet nature and childlike qualities; How so?

also deviated from all live happily for a hundred years -- the family.

Well, I think many would consider taking in an 11-year old orphan and raising him as part of the household as an expression of kindness. At the time Vito made that decision Vito wouldn't know Tom was destined to be a lawyer. Also, Vito inviting very old friends from the neighborhood to Connie's wedding would be termed considerate by many.

For me , the interesting aspect of "the second his sweet nature and childlike qualities" passage is that it has very little to do with Fredo/Freddy as portrayed in the book. He's quite a cold character, actually.

Vito also encouraged Tom to keep his own identity and surname Hagen because Tom is not a wartime Consiglieri and uh -- there are reasons why Tom must have no part in what is going to happen!

Michael too invited very old friends! to Anthony's party
Coppola: Upon that second reading, much of the book fell away in my mind
That is very kind of him You tell him! that's greatly appreciated binning those awful, boring stuff....

Grand sons
1. petty thief Victor
2. Anthony's not fine!
3. two-bit punk bastard Vincent

I'll second that!

I will have to search for that passage but as I remember it is fleshed out in the novel that he was a model son and fell out of favor because of his sexual excesses

Great King Vito did nothing to nurture Fredo even before he was displeased with Fredo's "sexual excesses"

Poor Fredo copped it from everyone - Vito, Carmela, Sonny, Michael, Greene, Deanna

He got no fatherly love fatherly guidance fatherly responsibility Great Mafia King but no father

He was quite a cold character, turning traitor for his brother's murder, to be Don

I reckon, the Great Mafia King neglected his blood family, leaving all sorts of needless problems behind

Sonny
No guidance to hotheaded, bad Don and blind eye to his infidelity

Fredo
He was left rudderless, resulting him turning traitor for his kid brother's murder, to be Don

Michael
The only mentoring he got was coaching him about the Baptism massacre and leaving him with a murderous legacy

Connie
deaf ear to spousal abuse, resulting in Sonny's murder

the oldest was given his passion and aggressiveness;
1. What is this passion Coppola envisaged? I can't recall them being passionate about anything though
2. Sonny's aggressiveness; was pure aggression, brutal force
3. Vito didn't fly off the handle like he did

the second his sweet nature and childlike qualities;
1. Where did Coppola get this qualities; that it has very little to do with Fredo/Freddy as portrayed in the book.
2. if He's quite a cold character, actually.

and the third, his intelligence, cunning and coldness;
1. reckon pretty much sums it up!
2. though greed for Roth's business was nearly his undoing

"How did things ever get so far? I don't know -- It was so -- unfortunate -- so unnecessary"....

Fredo "turning traitor for his kid brother's murder, to be Don" and Michael killing Fredo

The more we discuss the Great King Vito, the more I am baffled how Vito is fêted as the family man
Vito was instrumental, contributed and caused the misery of every one of his children to their gloom and doom including the violent deaths of Santino and Fredo Thanks! Pop

Why agree daughter to marry Carlo

Vito had him checked over before their marriage and kept tabs on him after

I think you're being a bit harsh on Vito here.

We see him criticize Sonny for the "comedy" with Lucy Mancini and his outburst in the Sollozzo meeting. Surely there was plenty of other guidance we didn't see onscreen. And the coaching of Michael we see is clearly just part of their interactions after Michael's return from Sicily.

As for Fredo, we really don't know what support he got from his father. He did seem to be treated well and warmly, although Vito's "Fredo was..well..." comment was dismissive but also probably accurate as to his potential. I've always wondered whether Fredo's childhood pneumonia we see in GFII left him permanently diminished.

I do agree that Vito's apparent unwillingness to meddle in Connie's romance with Carlo was very harmful to pretty much everyone in the Family, including Connie.

Vito pursued the best available options to secure a relatively good life for his children.

Santino was never going to be anything but a gangster,and Vito knew that for the Corleone Family business to survive, Sonny had to be the one at the helm.

Vito provided for Fredo,the weak and dimwitted son by placing him under the protection of the Molinaro Family. He would still have an income,but would never be a target for a takeover by any rival Families, since no one took him seriously as a potential leader.

Initially,Vito wanted Mike to pursue the legitimate world,and I believe that he would have used any of his influence and resources to bring that about.
When Sonny was killed,Vito realized that the future of the Corleone organization now rested squarely on Mike's shoulders,and acted accordingly.

Even though Tom was not blood,Vito knew the value he brought,and made sure that his hands were kept as clean as possible.

As far as Connie,she was not a "masculine child" and in the old school mentality that Vito possessed, her job was the 4 C's (cook,clean,children,church) I believe that in the novel,Vito's solution to the domestic violence in her home was that she should not give her husband a reason to beat her. Once she married,she no longer belonged to her Father,but instead,to her Husband.

My two cents worth!
Maybe so However from what was seen onscreen

I reckon Vito pursued his best available options to secure a relatively good life as he saw for his children not what was best for them

Sonny
Family man Vito, criticized him only when his "comedy" with Lucy Mancini affected business

Fredo
It was Sonny, placing him under the protection of the Molinaro Family and sending him off to learn the casino business

Don't know Woltz He's quite a cold and cunning character, actually in GFII

Michael
He could have walked away, handing over the future of the Corleone organization to Clemenza and Tessio instead of dragging him in, to settle all Family business and then try to pursue his “legitimate” future life as if

only guidance seen was coaching him about the Baptism massacre and leaving him with a murderous legacy

Carlo
He let his daughter marry him, then treated him as an outcast and the family man father did nothing about her domestic violence because of which her brother was forced to get involved, resulting in Sonny's murder

Sonny gumar, bad Don Still Don

Fredo dismissive, stepped over because of which turn traitor

Michael which future important? Thanks! Great King

Connie family man father did nothing very harmful resulting in
1. Sonny's murder
2. Fredo betrayal
3. Michael misery

Great King's delusions and failings
1. Gangster Sonny and Senator, Governor Michael can coexist No conflict of interests
2. Fredo would go along with being stepped over
3. Michael can live a legitimate life after the Baptism massacre
4. Connie would go along with Carlo answering for Santino

The Corleone Family - Great Mafia King Vito and his three sons: - bigger than US Steel!
1. Gangster Sonny
2. Gypsy Fredo
3. Murderer Michael

• Short of sons

Sonny dead and Michael in hiding in Sicily

It is fleshed out in the book that Vito, cruelly and contemptuously dismissed Fredo that Carmela can still cook their meals or similar when Tom asked should Fredo be brought home

• Carlo

Extracts:

Vito's That solution gave everyone a place to hang their hat!

It is fleshed out in the book, Carlo and Connie were moved into the Corleone Mall after Sonny's murder Keeping the enemies closer

The siblings looked after each other unlike their Great Mafia King, family man, father Vito

among others -
Sonny

• Sonny as acting Don foresaw the family's future, bankrolled the casino/hotel and sent Fredo over to “learn the casino business” having arranged Fredo's protection with the Molinari family
• Sonny was forced to get involved in his sister Connie's domestic violence and ended up losing his life because of their family man father Vito's inaction

Fredo

• What a welcome party! Fredo had organised for Michael in his territory
• Fredo is the only one who congratulated Marine Michael and got his hand nearly broken! by Sonny

Michael

• Michael always taken care of Fredo
• Michael invited Connie to live on the Tahoe estate with her kids that Connie won't be deprived of anything and Connie can have everything she wants

Connie

• Connie moved into the Tahoe estate after Mama's death, to take care of Michael
• I believe Fredo’s “drowning” was something Connie self-invented, to obscure the truth of the horror of her brother Michael killing another brother Fredo and also as comfort and support for tormented Michael

Especially that ghastly stuff about Lucy! But as I wrote in another thread, I would have liked to have seen Paulie's backstory in the film.

True lucab19 there were some great backstories and story lines Though I will have to search for that passage about Paulie's

from what I remember,
1. Luca Brasi's how evil he was and why he was so loyal to Vito
2. paedophile Woltz

and my point about Vito is seen through rose-colored glasses
1. as long as Luca was killing for him, his baby can be thrown into a fiery furnace while still alive
2. as long as Woltz gave the movie part to his Godson, he can keep molesting children

Neri's how brutal he was and why he was so loyal to Michael

Bocchicchios very lucrative negotiator business

True Lana The siblings looked after each other unlike their Great Mafia King, family man, father Vito

Sonny
1. lucky with his wife like Vito's and unlike Michael's horror Kay
2. could have been a great family man if not for his "comedy" with Lucy Mancini
3. would have always been a bad Don because of that famous temper of his

Fredo
1. I reckon Sonny conveniently packed off the useless and big liability, to Vegas while they are gonna catch the hell
2. while it was a business meeting, he could have shown appreciation for his welcome party! before dismissing Get rid of it
3. No wonder Poor Fredo jumped at the chance of something in it for me -- on my own.

Michael
1. That's my family, Kay. It's not me.
2. Tragic hero did what he could, to protect the family from the horrors of this kill or be killed world that he was thrust into by Vito

Connie
1. except the passage on The Queen and of course no Merle
2. Fredo’s “drowning” was in denial and self-preservation, blocking out the horror

To summarise, he was given the task of exacting revenge on the punks who defiled Bonasera's daughter. And he carried it out perfectly.

Michael happily married need and care for wife No Vegas girls

What reason she give her husband to beat her

Her father only gave him a living and never discussed the Family business with him.

Thank you for the summary So he was earmarked for bigger things like Rocco but his greed and impatience were his undoing

Paulie was basically Clemenza’s top soldier and protege(before Pentangeli was created). When Paulie become traitor Clemenza took great offense and was more than happy to kill him when Sonny orders it. Yes He chose Rocco to replace Paulie but obviously Rocco eventually rose to become a high ranking member in the family

The beginning of GF (and the novel) is full of parables about Mob life. Paulie's story is a good one: Betrayal is never far away from any Don's existence. And, greed makes otherwise smart people stupid.
Paulie was an up-and-coming button man who was due for a reward (says the novel) for carrying out the beating of the two punks perfectly. His greed cost him his life--and nearly cost Vito his life.

Paulie would have known he was due for a reward?

Presumably Clemenza made the same offer to his top soldier and protégé Paulie [made to Rocco later] for carrying out the Bonasera assignment perfectly but Paulie was too impatient to wait, in spite of Paulie's reward would have been quicker than Rocco's because things were 'normal' then

If my memory serves me right, Clemenza told Rocco, Rocco would be rewarded for “exterminating”! Paulie after the Gangland war settles or similar

For Vito and Michael, there's only their wife and son – beautiful Angels! No Vegas girls!

• Garden scene

That's it! in a nutshell!

Carlo had big plans for himself, marrying into the Top Mafia Family, their only daughter - Right hand man to the Don

little he know abortion coming

Barzini made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

from what I remember,
Vito also realized he could be doing a lot more for the Family because he was a talker and was given something important which made him think, no one suspected him and he had gotten away with it

Another of the Great King's delusions and failings Too late

• Michael-Greene meeting

Fredo was Floating like a butterfly!! Fussing over....

All excited and undoubtedly feeling important that he was in a position to give his kid brother "Anything he wants Anything"
1. Fredo wanted to give Michael a good time, like Fredo's been enjoying!
2. a piece of his action! 
3. Fredo wanted to show off! to his kid brother

I think it was [another] lost opportunity

Fredo was blindsided Fredo had no idea

• Vito was semi-retired
• Michael was in charge of the family business
• Michael's real reason [buy Greene out] for the visit

However acknowledge risky as Fredo could have blabbed to Greene and the surprise element would have been lost

It seems to me Fredo taking sides against the Family was not addressed by Vito nor Vito had a Garden chat with Fredo as to -
1. Why Fredo was being stepped over
2. That's the way Pop wanted it

"Something in it for me"

Turnbull
We see in the Trilogy how greed and lust for vengeance blind the perps to the obvious
Extracts:

• Could Paulie seriously think he wouldn't be the prime suspect in setting up Vito?
• Did Carlo have any right to believe he could get away with setting up Sonny by beating up Connie for a second time?

If Vito's life were a rap sheet, we'd see a gangster who used violence--including murder--to acheive his criminal goals. He corrupted police, politicians and judges, subverting justice and the rule of law. Yes, he eschewed drugs for "harmless" criminal businesses. But, the big money in gambling comes not the odds favoring the house, but from loan sharking--a business of broken kneecaps or worse. And, every dollar he squeezed out of labor unions was a dollar stolen from a working person and used for subveerting the rights and benefits unions are supposed to provide their members, And, no, a "good father" doesn't bring his sons into his criminal enterprise, no matter how much he "never wanted this for you."

But, Vito's life as portrayed by Puzo and FFC isn't a rap sheet, and GF isn't a gangster movie per se--it's a movie about a family with the Mafia as the defining milieu. Vito's life is presented with nuances and emotions that don't redeem his criminal career, but do show him as a human being with feelings ad motivations we can relate to, even if we don't approve of all of them, He has limits, and sometimes a sense of balance and fairness. By contrast: Michael's life as portrayed shows us few of those "redeeming features." .

I'll second that!

Vito, in spite of having seen first hand what a gangster who used violence--including murder-- did to his father, brother, mother and he was even more delusional we're not murderers

I don't recall his limits, and sometimes a sense of balance and fairness.
from what I remember, it was always sign or blow their brains all over

And, no, a "good father"
1. doesn't discard his sweet and hapless son because he was not cut out for his criminal enterprise
2. doesn't throw his "never wanted this for you." son under his criminal goals bus

I reckon, the Great Mafia King neglected his blood family, leaving all sorts of needless problems behind for Michael

Fredo, for once in his life All excited and undoubtedly feeling important that he was in a position to give his kid brother "Anything he wants Anything" Superman breaking a brick!

Vito left the stepped over and taking sides against the Family unaddressed leaving a deadly ticking time bomb for Michael

He did sting like a venomous bee in GFII The Greatest

You raise a great point, Lana.

I wonder what Vito knew, if anything, about the Vegas interaction. I guess it depends on how "semi-retired" he was.

Of course, it's also possible that Vito didn't consider Fredo's action taking sides against the Family, although it's hard to imagine he would have been happy about Fredo expressing an opinion in front of others.

But he might have dismissed it as Fredo being "well..." and, understanding that Fredo had no real role in the Family, not addressed it since he didn't view Fredo as a potential threat/weakness.

I reckon Vito had his finger on the pulse, his ear to the ground and knew everything

It is fleshed out in the novel, he knew Fredo was amusing himself with young girls more than a grown man should and getting slapped in public, by Greene

No doubt he wouldn't have been happy about Fredo expressing an opposing opinion in front of others.
Never tell anybody outside the family what you're thinking again

Vito didn't consider Fredo anything more than taking care of some Mickey Mouse night club somewhere! and picking somebody up at the airport! but he should have especially after the Vegas outburst Vito was slippin'

Fredo taking sides against the family would have affirmed Vito in his decision to pass him over in favor of Michael.

Vito didn't consider it happen again because It ain't the way I wanted it! leaving all sorts of needless problems behind for Michael

pimp outfit and sunglasses

Greene knew He already talked to Barzini

. Personally I never saw it as Fredo taking sides Against the Family. I think it was more of Fredo just being stupid. Even in GF 2 I genuinely believe that Fredo believed that he was helping the Corleone Family while also doing it “on his own”. Obviously we know it was stupid but I think in Fredo’s mind he thought he was doing something good

I tend to agree. Reading the novel is essential because in the novel Vito expresses what approaches contempt for Fredo's shortcomings that he demonstrates in Vegas. On the other hand, Vito seems quite pleased with Fredo because of Fredo's genius for running a hotel. Fredo's taking sides was no more a violation of family loyalty than Tom telling Sonny to negotiate with the five families rather than attack them.

My two cents worth!
from what was seen onscreen, I don't recall anything that Fredo was stupid

He knew exactly what he was doing every time
1. Vegas outburst
2. complicit in Tahoe shooting
3. brothers having drinks in Havana
4. deliberate and deceitful concealment of the Senate hearing
5. cunningly withholding information
6. boathouse outburst

No doubt even otherwise stupidity, shortcomings is no excuse for betrayal of the family and setting his kid brother up to be murdered

If he had volunteered the information he knew about the Senate hearing even after his betrayal then "redeeming feature." perhaps could give him the benefit of the doubt but he cunningly withheld it, for Michael to commit perjury and sent to prison


apples and oranges!
Fredo taking sides against the family was always for something in it for me -- on my own.
Tom telling Sonny to negotiate was business and a Gangland war, they were unlikely to win

Therein lies the issue? "Fredo had no real role in the Family" not even figurehead, face-saving role

Fredo put up with whatever was dished out by his father Vito older brother Sonny and being straightened out / slapped around in public by "we're good friends, right Moe" but couldn't handle his kid brother, Michael being the Don because it should have been Fredo

If my memory serves me right, Vito was cruelly and contemptuously dismissive of Fredo in the book as well that Fredo was never the man for the Family business – Fair enough Fredo was never a contender for the Donship and was always going to be stepped over
Sure thing no one is disputing it! However....

The Great King, Vito never foreseen any issues with anything Vito was putting in place
It never even occurred to Vito, Vito never even considered Fredo [and Connie] may not go along with what Vito had tasked with Michael, let alone

Vito "didn't view Fredo as a potential threat/weakness" No Garden chat with Fredo "but he should have especially after the Vegas outburst" This failing of Vito, left the door wide open, with a welcome mat! for Roth

Vito was slippin' indeed same as underestimating Sollozzo

. Eh I don’t buy it. I agree there was obvious resentment but it wasn’t to the point that Fredo wanted to harm Mike or even take over the Family. I think he just wanted to be looked at as a capable underboss. Look I understand that the thought of Mike killing his own brother is so horrific that many people have to try and justify it as “Fredo knew it was going to be a hit or Fredo was trying to send Mike to jail”. There is no evidence to suggest that. Let’s be honest if Fredo really wanted that to happen then he would have never told Mike about the Senate lawyer. Truth is that there was no justification of killing Fredo, it was a completely evil act which Mike comes to terms with in GF3

Fredo told Michael, "He [Johnny Ola] said there'd be something in it for me." He betrayed his brother for personal gain. "I swear to God I didn't know it was gonna be a hit." In other words, Ola didn't tell him it was gonna be a hit, and Fredo didn't ask why Ola wanted him to open the drapes to Michael and Kay's bedrooom. What did Fredo think was going to happen?

Michael's ordering of Fredo's murder was a horrific act. Michael was a reprehensibllle man, heading a reprehensible criminal empire. But, from his viewpoint, Fredo had to die. Fredo's outburst in the boathouse revealed the depth of his resentment toward his brother. Sooner or later, someone elserwould approach Fredo with yet anpther death-dealing offer. And, as Don, Michael had to prove to enemies and even friends that no one--not even his brother--gets a pass from Michael Corleone, no one finds a c***k l in his armor. As Hyman Roth said, "This is the business we've chosen."

There is no evidence to suggest Fredo knew it was going y be a hit. Fredo is portrayed as stupid and harmless. Let’s be honest what did murdering Fredo accomplish besides causing a ruftvin his immediate family(Kay and Anthony)and causing Michael to be haunted by it for the rest of his life. Doesn’t seem worth it especially considering even Mike said “he knows Toth misled him and he didn’t know they were foing to try and kill me”

It may follow more from the book than the first movie, but Michael is supposed to be a rationalist, and in this instance he's trapped by his nature. The principle that's been instilled in him is that when an enemy reveals himself he must be destroyed, and Michael lacks the ability to adjust for that. So, Fredo must die because Roth must die, Roth must die because Barzini, et al. died. It's self-activating.

No doubt He betrayed his brother for personal gain. What did Fredo think was going to happen?

How about the fact that he gave information to the Family's adversaries, opened the drapes to Michael and Kay's bedrooom, who used it to attempt the hit?

Then when Michael survived the Tahoe shooting, he deliberately and deceitfully concealed the Senate hearing and cunningly withheld the information he knew, for Michael to commit perjury because he can only get the Donship if he was dead or sent to prison

Let’s be honest Michael initially did give him a pass “I know he's scared -- tell him everything's all right. Tell him I know Roth misled him -- and he didn't know they were planing to kill me.”

Fredo's outburst in the boathouse revealed
1. the depth of his resentment toward his brother.
2. his jealousy, simmering anger at being stepped over
3. the extent of his deeper involvement with Roth against his brother

We had debated before Fredo could have been spared but Turnbull puts up an excellent case for it's justification


Michael being tormented by Fredo's murder in spite of his treachery, shows he has a heart

. Completely Disagree. Like I mentioned in an earlier post I understand that the thought of Mike is killing his own brother is so horrific that I think we have to almost try and make Fredo look bad to justify it. Also main characters tend to have more sympathy from the audience even if they commit evil acts. But there really is no evidence in that film portrayal of Fredo that he was capable of that ruthlessness. Was he resentful? Yes but not as the point of harming his brother. I think the basic truth is that he simply wanted to be looked at as capable. He wasn’t trying to take out Mike or even remove him from power, I really think Fredo thought he was helping the Corleones. Of course that was stupid but that doesn’t make him ruthless. Again there is zero justification in Mike murdering Fredo. Hell even Mike himself admits in the films he knows Roth misled him but Mikes morality was so far gone at that point it didn’t matter

Excellent, Movie fact-based analysis, Evita - Factual, Insightful Right again! Credit where credit is due....Fair's Fair

Sure thing “Let’s be honest Michael initially did give him [Fredo] a pass” until Fredo's full extent of Fredo's deeper involvement with Roth against his kid brother and treachery were revealed in Fredo's outburst in the boathouse
The Donship any role how important, nothing but the Donship would have sufficed for Fredo as we saw during Fredo's boathouse outburst The only way this could happen is if the current Don, Michael was dead or sent to prison

Ironically, Fredo would have had no problem taking care of some Mickey Mouse night club somewhere! getting slapped around in public by Greene It was the stepped over for his kid brother that got Fredo mad and all fired up....

My take, for what it is worth!

The Dons' lives are on the line everyday, in their kill or be killed criminal empire “that no one--not even his brother--gets a pass from Michael Corleone” However Michael wasn't a Don then Michael was a 'legitimate' businessman!

I am not sure Turnbull whilst I appreciate your “excellent case for it's [Fredo's killing] justification” - nobody witnessed Fredo's boathouse outburst

The general census was - Roth misled Fredo and Fredo [supposedly!] didn't know it was gonna be a hit

Michael could have easily continued the same arrangements of keeping Fredo under watch or similar until Mama Corleone's natural death Michael had the money and the resources Michael could have spared Fredo Besides if Mama had lived longer....

Nobody other than Neri, knew Fredo was on borrowed time, had a Lifeline as long as Mama was alive
It looked to Michael's enemies, Fredo had gotten a pass

There was no indication, Michael's enemies tried to exploit, Fredo getting a pass [however long Mama was alive] as a sign of weakness "no one [found] a c***k in his armor"

I doubt Neri would ever exploit or consider Michael weak for giving Fredo, his own - Mickey Mouse night club, brothel running, errand boy - brother, a pass and Rocco [even if Rocco was tempted!] wouldn't dare with Neri around

I agree, Michael even in "This is the business we've chosen." reprehensible criminal empire, has a heart
and Fredo broke Michael's heart -- Fredo broke Michael's heart

Stop confusing me!
Both Lana and Turnbull put up excellent case for and against it's justification

Eeny, meeny, miny, moe, --

We debate how Fredo's murder was a horrific act but he did exactly the same and would have been just as horrific and guilty of fratricide if Michael had been killed He was complicit in trying to get his brother killed He stepped over me He did injure him

He might have been mostly honest with Michael about Ola bumped into me in Beverly Hills -- However everything before and since was devious, dishonest, deceitful He was quite the deep thinker too, coming up with all those lies, lie after lie, he was feeding Michael

No doubt he betrayed the family and set his kid brother up to be murdered for the Donship

There is zero evidence suggesting the Fredo knew about the hit. Forget about the boathouse when Ola called him he was clearly upset with him, “You guys lied to me”. Being resentful doesn’t equate trying to kill your brother. Like I mentioned earlier I understand the need to try and find some justification for Mike murdering Fredo. The truth is Roth used his stupidity for his own gain but it’s pretty clear to me that Fredo had no idea Mike and Kay were targets to be killed

I agree.

It's a murky situation all the way around - what Fredo was told, what he was offered, what he finally did. I tend to think now that Coppola and Puzo reached a place in the script where they realized that explaining the hit would result in the audience cheering when Fredo got his, so they just went silent about it.

Spot on! Very murky indeed

My take too, Coppola and Puzo were mystified, clueless themselves at explaining so just left things hanging but we are not going silent about it! We'll get there! Pete -- we'll get there --

Coppola and Puzo did us a huge favour! that we are still debating....

• What did Fredo think was going to happen?

My take, for what it is worth!

“something in it for me -- on my own” was, in my view, the Donship and the only way this could happen is if the current Don, Michael was dead or in prison

My take, among others -

• Ola's phone call was a warning, veiled threat “Your brother's not going to find out we talked” Don't go squealing or else....
• Fredo's "You guys lied to me" was because Ola didn't deliver on his [*empty promise carrot] - Michael dead and Fredo the new Don - and now Fredo is in deep...."you got me in deep enough already"
• the astute and meticulous Roth would have instructed Ola, to fuel Fredo's resentment and make sure Fredo listened good and inferred [Ref: *Turnbull] the reward is Donship
• Fredo was Hooked! otherwise Fredo would be stuck running Mickey Mouse nightclubs somewhere!
• [Ref: *Evita] Here's the thing Roth didn't have to make the Donship happen, obviously he can't but that was never his intention

Fredo can handle things He's smart -- not like everyone says -- not dumb, smart! Quick and Clever too including after Ola's phone call
"No doubt he [Fredo] betrayed the family and set his kid brother up to be murdered for the Donship" but should Fredo be sleeping with the fishes....

* "Something in it for me"

True Pete Very murky indeed but the fact remains He betrayed his brother for personal gain.

I reckon Ola's phone call confirms,
1. He'd already helped them out and they need some more
2. you got me in deep enough already How so? Why because he helped set Michael up to be murdered for the Donship?
3. Ola's assurance Just go along, everything will be alright this time, not like before when the shooters messed up


I am mystified, clueless too but We'll get there! Lana -- we'll get there -- once Turnbull and you draw the water from the same well. after all -- we are not Fredo haters

. The truth is Fredo was simply duped. He would have never harmed his brother despite any resentment he may have had just not his character. Like I says I understand that Mikes murder if Fredo was so horrific and evil that we need to try and find justification but there is none which is a big part of Part 3. Mike knows he murdered his brother because Roth used him not becstse Frefo tried to harm him or his family

Exactly Evita and the stark contrast between Fredo's boathouse outburst and Michael's tormented, teary confession

Sure thing the fact remains “He betrayed his brother for personal gain” indeed and Fredo continued trying to harm and injure Michael


Fredo telling Michael about Questadt was painful to watch like pulling teeth

No doubt it was painful to watch like pulling teeth
Again, if he had volunteered the information then "redeeming feature." but he was still trying to harm and injure Michael, for the Donship

While knowing or not knowing about Questadt made no difference whatsoever to Michael's defense Good or Bad, Frankie's brother was already on his way but he thought he would indict Michael and send him to prison which may very well deliver him the goods, Don Fredo

Fredo's reveal of Questadt eventually, only confirmed in no uncertain terms how he was in deeper with Roth against his own brother

Fredo wasn’t trying to remove Mike from power or harm him he simply wanted to do something important on his own. Once again there is ZERO evidence Fredo was trying g to harm Mike. If you do t believe me then take it from the horse’s mouth. Mike legit tells Tom “I know Roth misled him and he didn’t think they were going to try and kill me”. Was Fredo upset/resentful? Sure buy many people have those feelings, doesn’t mean we are goi g to try and harm that person to get what they have. Fredo is guilty of being easily duped but like I said he thought he was helping Mike and the family. It was stupid no doubt but there was no vicious intent behind it. I get it As the main character we tend to want to protect/defend Mike and make those around him look worse to justify his actions. Look many people like Barzini, Carlo, Roth deserved Mike’s wrath but Fredo certainly not Fredo. Not to get off topic but even Frankie didn’t deserve it. He was loyal and listened to Mike and get still got the shaft after he was put in a situation he didn’t expect. I think the point of Part 2 is to show how far and evil Mike has become and he will take you out even when you never tried to harm him

I agree. To assuage Michael's feelings, there were alternatives to murder of which he could avail himself such as exiling Fredo.

Agreed. Look I’m not arguing that Fredo wasn’t resentful or that he didn’t do something incredibly stupid that almost had deadly consequences. But That’s not the same thing as intentionally trying to harm your brother or even trying to eliminate him from power. Both those things are false when it comes to Fredo. It’s pretty clear Fredo’s main ambition was to do something important the Family on his own. Like you said Mike could have easily killed Roth, the Rosatos, told Frankie to kill himself, and either exile Fredo to shelve hi. Remember by the end when Mike “forgave” him Fredo no longer had any ambitions if his mob status. He was happy that Mike forgave him in his mind and that he was getting close to Anthony. At the end of the day the only person who intentionally tried to and succeeded in trying to harm his brother was….Michael

When you look at it like this it makes the ending to Part II all that more shocking and heartbreaking and also gives you a new perspective. I was also never really quite sold on the idea that Fredo meant to harm Michael. I have also always had this feeling that Fredo was desperate for approval, he really wanted to be on peoples good side. In my opinion this can be seen in the flashback, when he wants to shake Mike's hand and show his brother that he is happy for him. Great post JCrusher!

Now my sources tell me we can teach old topics new tricks!

Fredo shaking Mike's hand happened before he was stepped over!

As Lana posted,

• What a welcome party! Fredo had organised for Michael in his territory
• Fredo is the only one who congratulated Marine Michael and got his hand nearly broken! by Sonny

Fredo put up with whatever was dished out by his father Vito older brother Sonny and being straightened out / slapped around in public by "we're good friends, right Moe" but couldn't handle his kid brother, Michael being the Don because it should have been Fredo

As Turnbull posted,
1. He betrayed his brother for personal gain.
2. What did Fredo think was going to happen?

I reckon he was after the Donship but interested in your explanation as to why even after the Tahoe shooting and the brothers having drinks in Havana if Fredo meant no harm to Michael, his --
1. deliberate and deceitful concealment of the Senate hearing
2. cunningly withholding information
3. I'm your older brother Mike and I was stepped over!
4. It ain't the way I wanted it!

I think you might be reading into something that isn’t there. You keep bringing up the Senate lawyer but at the end of day Fredo still told Michael about it. If he really wanted to hurt Micheal don’t you think he would you know…never tell him lol. Look you’re entitled to your opinion but right now with the facts presented it’s much more likely that Fredo was simply duped and he only wanted to help the Family NOT harm his brother or remove him from power

My take, for what it is worth!

From what we saw in the movie, in my view, there is no denying that all the evidence, point to -

However if Fredo was not after the Donship and if Fredo meant no harm to Michael and “Fredo was desperate for approval, he really wanted to be on peoples good side” [not on Michael's?!]

• Why would Fredo throw “I'm your older brother Mike and I was stepped over! It ain't the way I wanted it!” in Michael's face? when “That's the way Pop wanted it”
• Why would the Donship be even an issue? for Fredo

Nevertheless and in spite of all the mounting evidence pointing to Fredo indeed set out to harm and injure his brother Michael, for the Donship and the fact remains “He betrayed his brother for personal gain”

All these even after Michael confided in Fredo in Havana and Fredo assured Michael, Michael could trust! Fredo and Fredo even offered to help! Michael


It seems to me, Fredo is even more cunning, devious and ruthless than Vito and Michael put together!
Vito may have picked the wrong son! for Donship

The way Fredo, among others -

• denied knowing Roth and/or Ola
• sat through the brothers having drinks, hiding his true feelings without raising any suspicions
• pretending he has never been to Havana before -- how do you say "banana daiquiri"?
• absorbing the shock of Michael knowing it was Roth who tried to kill Michael in his home – without batting an eyelid
• Fredo's demeanour certainly fooled Michael

Wow! And the Oscar goes to....

He says he doesn't know anything -- and I believe him He certainly fooled Tom too

Roth's inside man Fredo's own words, lie after lie, he was feeding Michael
1. I haven't got a lot to say Mike.
2. I was kept pretty much in the dark.
3. I didn't know all that much.

Let's stretch what was seen onscreen and give him the benefit of the doubt that Roth misled him, he really thought his little help to close the deal fast -- in Roth's favor against his own brother for “something in it for me -- on my own” would be good for the family and he didn't know it was gonna be a hit

If that's all it was,
1. why bring up the Donship?
2. Why would the Donship be even an issue?

Again it seems like you’re reaching for something that isn’t there. Like I’ve said in previous posts I understand the need to want to justify Mike’s actions because he is the main character who you like so it’s easier to make Fredo look evil even though there really is no evidence to support that. Stupid? Yes Resentful? Sure, Ruthless enough to murder his brother and his family? Absolutely Fucking Not lol. I think many of us have experienced having some sort of resentment in our lives but I doubt many of us actually take action to hurt that person. The only person who committed an evil act is Michael. You may not like it but you can’t deny it because we saw it with our own eyes

Why did Fredo think Johnny Ola wanted him to open the drapes in Michael and Kay's bedroom?

to machine gun Michael

Fredo Guilty attempted fratricide
little help open the drapes
“something in it for me -- on my own” Donship

That's it! in a nutshell!

Exactly Evita why mention the Donship at all unless “something in it for me -- on my own” was, the Donship and the only way this could happen is if the current Don, Michael was dead or in prison

Why would the Donship be even an issue?
Sure thing if Fredo hadn't mentioned the Donship, we can try and stretch the truth as unconvincing! as it is....

However we can't ignore all the mounting evidence pointing to Fredo indeed set out to harm and injure his brother Michael, for the Donship and the fact remains “He betrayed his brother for personal gain”

Again, the phrase "Somethin' in it for me, on my own," for me implies that Fredo wasn't expecting the Corleone empire to come to him. To me, I think it means something akin to what Roth parcels out on his birthday. Perhaps Fredo is one of Roth's "friends in Nevada"?

The way I see it is that Fredo was so consumed with being stepped over, courtesy of Johnny Ola bumped into me in Beverly Hills -- Roth knew that is the only carrot to get him, Roth's pawn, on board

As we debated in "Something in it for me" thread: Roth's empty promise carrot was Donship

All Roth wanted was Michael dead exactly what he set out to do and his job done
He goes back to living his retired investor on a pension exactly as he planned

If he got any Corleone business or in the unlikely event that Fredo became Don, his coglioni would be forever in Roth's pocket.
Don Fredo [albeit Roth's puppet] It's never been done before. Honey Bunny for the great man, Mr. Roth.

I reckon, we see enough of the Mafia that anyone born and bred, would know they can't set up shop, outside their Family, on their own including perhaps as one of Roth's "friends in Nevada"? or Havana even with Superman!

It is also too distant Fredo wants respect! now and within the Corleone empire

However if Fredo wasn't expecting the Donship, interested in your explanation as to
1. Why did Fredo think Johnny Ola wanted him to open the drapes in Michael and Kay's bedroom?
2. why bring up the Donship?
3. Why would the Donship be even an issue?

We can't ignore, his outburst I'm your older brother Mike and I was stepped over! It ain't the way I wanted it!

We don't know what Fredo thinks about the drapes. Do we even know that Fredo knows about the drapes?

Fredo is complaining about many things: "Send FREDO off to do this -- send FREDO off to do that! Get FREDO to take care of some Mickey Mouse night club somewhere! Send FREDO to pick somebody up at the airport!" He's been stepped over by everybody, not just Michael.* If Tom or Neri betrayed Michael, it's a reasonable inference that they did it to become boss, because there's nothing else to tempt them with. Fredo can be bought cheaper.

Everything has to lead to the ending. If Fredo had tried to murder Michael, then why such a melancholy ending? Why is Kay saying, twenty years later, "Tony knows that you killed Fredo," instead of, "Tony knows that Fredo tried to kill me"?

*It's also not hard to scenario that Deanna is Fredo's primary frustration, especially when the deleted scene where they arrive at the party is considered.

Your questions are flawed.

Ola asking Fredo to open the drapes is total speculation. Nothing even close to that happens in the film. Anyone could have done it.

The Donship isn't brought up (explicitly) and it isn't really the issue. Fredo tells Michael exactly what the issue is - respect. He knows that nobody respects him and seems to think that helping Ola will get that for him.

Let me throw a question back at you: How could Fredo possibly think Roth can give him the Donship?

He knows that nobody respects him. Even Fredo couldn't have believed that Roth could somehow make Tom, Rocco, Neri, etc. step back and allow Fredo to take over once Michael was out of the way. And, if he wouldn't be Don, what incentive would he have to facilitate a hit?

As I've posted elsewhere, I don't believe he was promised anything in particular. He was so eager for something on his own that he jumped at vague promises from Roth and Ola.

I also agree with Pete that the impact of the ending is really minimized if you look at Fredo as just another enemy, rather than a prodigal brother who unwittingly was involved in a coup attempt and ended up losing his life over it.

I still find it EXTREMELY unlikely that Fredo had malicious intent. Just doesn’t fit his character. You can be resentful without actively trying to harm the person you have resentment for. As for the drapes as others have says we dont even know if Fredo opened them and even if he did I doubt it was because he was trying to kill his brother. Fredo is guilty of being an idiot but other than that loves his brother as we saw in the flashback scene. Look I get it Mike is the main character so the initial reaction is to root for his and justify his actions. And look when it comes to guys like Barzini, Roth, Carlo, and Tessio Mike’s actions are justified. But when it comes to Fredo it’s not

Nowhere in the film is it shown that Fredo opened the drapes. But, as we saw, Kay was surprised that the drapes were opened, and the shooters fired at Michael through the window. My conclusion is that, with thousands of people on Michael's estate for Anthony's party, Rocco would have assured that guards were posted around Michael's home to prevent people wandering in to take a look inside, or perhaps to lift a "souvenir." But Fredo would have been allowed in. And Fredo had motivation because he was cooperating with Ola against his brother.


I also believe that Ola/Roth didn't promose Fredo the Donship or anything specific. They didn't have to. We saw the depth of Fredo's resentment of Michael in the boathouse scene. Ola must have picked up a lot of that when he "bumped into" Fredo in Beverly Hills--probably over drinks.

Logically:
--Fredo seethed with resentment against Michael because he thought he should have been the Don. He said so: "I'm your older brother, Mike. And I was passed over/"
--There was only one way for Fredo to become the Don-: if his brother were no longer the Don.
--The central event in the attempt to kill Michael was opening the drapes so the attackers could have a clear field of fire on Michael.
--Fredo was the most likely person to be in a position to open the drapes, and was asked to do so by Ola.

Though Fredo may not have wanted to actively think about the consequences of his action, fhere was no logical--possible--nonviolent consequence of his opening the drapes. When he said to Michael, "I swear to God I didn't know it was gonna be a hit," I think he meant that Ola didn't explicitly tell him it was gonna be a hit--and Fredo conveniently didn't ask.

Turnbull is a good man. I believe that story. I believe that Ola wanted him to open the drapes Fredo's little help
I too can't see anyone else allowed into their home let alone -- and No one else had the motive and the incentive

Exactly We can't ignore, his outburst I'm your older brother Mike and I was stepped over! It ain't the way I wanted it!
and he can only get the Donship if the current Don was dead or sent to prison

As we'd debated previously and recently in "Something in it for me" thread: and elsewhere in this one:
Donship was Roth's empty promise carrot

the astute and meticulous Roth would have instructed Ola, to fuel Fredo's resentment and make sure Fredo listened good and inferred [Ref: *Turnbull] the reward is Donship
Fredo was Hooked! otherwise Fredo would be stuck running Mickey Mouse nightclubs somewhere!

The drapes debated above so I won't repeat

Fredo was bought cheaper! Drinks, Yolandas, Superman and he was Hooked

No doubt Fredo is complaining about many things:
I reckon Everything, All Roads lead to the Donship that he may feel will get the respect that he so desperately craves, for him.

As regards hypocrite Kay, I bet she never told him that she killed his unborn brother

convoluted, unbalanced and disjointed GF3 --
how would she know when she had been banished and everyone even Connie, the resident sister 'knows' Fredo drowned

The drapes debated above so I won't repeat

The Donship was brought up (explicitly) in his outburst and I reckon, is really the issue that he may feel will get the respect that he so desperately craves, for him.

As we'd debated previously and recently in "Something in it for me" thread: and elsewhere in this one:
Roth's empty promise carrot was Donship, made sure Fredo listened good and inferred even if without having to promise and spell out anything in particular or specific. The rightful heir and successor The only male blood Corleone if the current Don was no longer

Fredo was seething with jealousy and resentment, so consumed with being stepped over, courtesy of Johnny Ola bumped into me in Beverly Hills -- Roth knew fueling his stepped over, is the only carrot that would get him, Roth's pawn, on board

Here's the thing Roth didn't have to make the Donship happen, obviously he can't but that was never his intention, of course if that did happen, he would have Don Fredo [albeit Roth's puppet]

All Roth wanted was Michael dead exactly what he set out to do and his job done
He goes back to living his retired investor on a pension exactly as he planned

and whether we look at Fredo as just another enemy or the prodigal brother, the fact remains He betrayed his brother for personal gain.

. You still can’t present any factual evidence that Fredo acted with malicious intent to harm Mike or remove him from the Donship. On the flip side there is a mountain of evidence that shows Fredo simply was trying to do something on his own despite his stupidity he thought he was helping the Family. Like I’ve said in previous posts having resentment and actually maliciously acting out that resentment are two separate things. Most of us had had some type of those feelings yet rarely act them out. At the end of the day the only brother who maliciously harmed his brother was Mike since he murdered Fredo. That’s a fact that can’t be denied

I heartily agree Crush. There is no evidence of Fredo's nefarious intent.

Extracts:
Makes no sense to me as well that Kay knew? Michael killed? Fredo when everyone 'knows' Fredo drowned

Anyhow even if so, Kay must also know that Fredo was complicit in the Tahoe shooting but Kay as always throwing Michael under the bus even after all those years!

Why would Kay even tell Anthony if it was Kay who did - was it leverage for Michael to let Anthony go....

Kay tells Michael "to let Tony go free to have his own life Away from Michael" or similar but weren't Kay and their children Anthony and Mary were already and have been away from Michael for several years since Michael entrusted their children's education to Kay, their mother for their own best interests because the Corleone money, power and resources couldn't cut it!

It was all about Anthony's education and Michael was being the loving father, genuinely wanting Anthony to get his law degree first – the insurance, Michael missed out on

Kay of all people ought to know the importance of education and should have encouraged Anthony and been supportive instead of throwing Michael under the bus, as always - That's your father, Anthony It's not me

Besides have you heard Anthony sing?!!

Sure thing Pete Deanna humiliating Fredo in front of everyone that Fredo is not a real man etc. and Fredo having to admit he can't control his wife, certainly wouldn't have helped but then again! Fredo was going to be the Don after that night's shooting up of Michael's bedroom Who is real man! now

"Roth's inside man Fredo's own words" - “something in it for me -- on my own” for Fredo's "little help" to Ola

Extracts:

Turnbull is a good man! I believe that story. The fact remains “He betrayed his brother for personal gain” whether “unwittingly [or otherwise] Fredo was involved in a coup attempt” which could have wiped out the entire Michael Corleone family Sure thing Fredo was the only contender with “the motive and the incentive” for opening the drapes “because he was cooperating with Ola against his brother”

My take as well, Fredo's something in it for me was [Roth's empty promise carrot] the Donship and Fredo's little help was opening the drapes thus identifying Michael's bedroom


“Let’s be honest Michael initially did give him [Fredo] a pass” Ref: Desert Inn until Fredo's full extent of Fredo's deeper involvement with Roth against his kid brother and treachery were revealed in Fredo's outburst in the boathouse
Nevertheless and in spite of all the mounting evidence pointing to Fredo indeed set out to harm and injure his brother Michael, for the Donship and the fact remains “He betrayed his brother for personal gain”

Spot on! Can't trump that!

You are right The fact remains “He betrayed his brother for personal gain” whether “unwittingly [or otherwise] Fredo was involved in a coup attempt” which could have wiped out the entire Michael Corleone family

Fredo “gave information to the Family's adversaries, opened the drapes [thus identifying] Michael and Kay's bedrooom” which was used to attempt the hit

All things considered, when all is said and done, “something in it for me -- on my own” was, in my view as well, the Donship [Roth's empty promise carrot] and the only way this could happen is if the current Don, Michael was dead or in prison

The Jury reached a guilty verdict from what we saw in the movie based on all the supporting evidence and speculation!
The Judge sentenced Fredo to a lifetime of sleeping with the fishes!

Spot on! Very murky indeed Coppola and Puzo did us a huge favour!

My take too, Coppola and Puzo were mystified, clueless themselves at explaining so just left things hanging but we are not going silent about it! We'll get there! Pete -- we'll get there --

That's the Beauty of these films that we are still debating half a century on, in the spirit of this nice Board - Thanks! J Geoff - mainly because perhaps no interpretations / speculations are wholly accurate or inaccurate....

I don't -- look -- I don't have this Forum's brain! but my Godfather journey here continues to be fun, informative and enjoyable
Learning from our Godfather melting pot of riveting perspective Let's keep them coming!

The drapes being open is a central event because we actually see that and because Fredo confesses to something and opening the drapes is about the only part of the assassination that we can imagine Fredo pulling off. Admitting or concealing the shooters, the shooting itself, and murdering the shooters are also pretty important events.

The only non-violent speculation I've ever come up with for why Fredo would open the drapes is that Roth's people would want to search Michael's office. So they had to know when Michael was turning in for the night. I think that works all right if it's two sentences on a page. I think it fails, though, as dialogue between "it'd be good for the family" and "You believed that story?" So, for me, that's where Coppola and Puzo just stop - with a strong emotional story, but with the details intentionally left ambiguous.

"Roth's inside man Fredo's own words" - “something in it for me -- on my own” for Fredo's "little help" to Ola

No doubt the drapes being open is the central event to the shooting up of Michael's bedroom Fredo's "little help"
I too can't see anyone else allowed into their home let alone -- Fredo was the only contender with “the motive and the incentive” for opening the drapes “because he was cooperating with Ola against his brother”

If he had volunteered the information he knew about the Senate hearing which he deliberately and deceitfully concealed even after his betrayal, the Tahoe shooting then "redeeming feature." perhaps could give him the benefit of the doubt but he cunningly withheld it, for Michael to commit perjury and sent to prison, to become the Don-:

Coppola and Puzo did us a huge favour! by stopping - with a strong emotional story, but with the details intentionally left ambiguous. or they didn't have the answers!

The fact remains “He betrayed his brother for personal gain” whether “unwittingly [or otherwise] Fredo was involved in a coup attempt” which could have wiped out the entire Michael Corleone family

He can't admit because of "I swear to God I didn't know it was gonna be a hit,"
can't see him with the shooting itself, and murdering the shooters

As regards concealing the shooters, They're lying there dead! outside his window
I reckon, they may have been told he would help hide them but it was for them to be killed by the third assassin

Who killed the Tahoe assassins-:

Please explain how Fredo, opening the drapes to Michael and Kay's bedroom on Johnny Ola's orders, did not have nefarious intent.

. We still don’t know for sure if he did. Secondly it’s already established Fredo is stupid. Its also established how strategic and brilliant Roth is. Let’s be honest Fans talk about how intelligent Mike is but Roth was outsmarting him before the events of the movie began and throughout most of the film so he could easily do that to Fredo. I could easily see Roth spinning it a way that makes it look like they are trying to help Mike. Again there is nothing in Fredo’s character in the films that show him being ruthless especially toward his own flesh and blood. People like to bri g up his “resentment “ but like I’ve said a few times in this thread pretty much everyone has some type of resentment in their life but they rarely act in it. I understand the need to justify Mikes evil actions since he is the main character but the films are about a man who wants to live a good life outside of the mob but eventually goes down the dark path and pretty much loses his soul(until Part 3). In Part 3 we see that Fredo’s murder was senseless and not justified which is why Mike is so tormented

Just a note: I don't think that Fredo's demeanor on the day of the party is that of someone who thinks he's about to take over. Especially bursting in to tell Michael that Frankie's there and sadly unburdening himself to Michael about Deanna, it just seems like he still sees Michael as his reference point.

Exactly Pete. I believe there is even a deleted scene from the party where Fredo is telling his wife that important people are there for Mike and Kay and she needs to behave herself since Mike is the boss. Now if Fredo knew Mike was on his way out I doubt he be too worried about what Mike thinks. Look everyone has a right to their opinion but I just don’t see much if any evidence that Fredo had malicious intent to either help kill Mike or incapacitate him to the point where he couldn’t lead the family. I think the simple truth is that he wanted to do something on his own that would gain him respect and in his mind help the Family. Was it stupid? Absolutely BUT was it worth a death sentence? I don’t think so when comparing it to Corleone traitors who we know actively help try to kill Mike, Vito, and Sonny.

And Fredo -- well -- -- Fredo was -- well -- was deemed weak and stupid to be the Don.
I too reckon, Fredo is even more cunning, devious and ruthless than Vito and Michael put together! and Vito may have picked the wrong son! for Donship

recapping -- the facts remain,
“He betrayed his brother for personal gain” whether “unwittingly [or otherwise] Fredo was involved in a coup attempt” which could have wiped out the entire Michael Corleone family

Fredo “gave information to the Family's adversaries, opened the drapes [thus identifying] Michael and Kay's bedrooom” which was used to attempt the hit

We can't ignore, his outburst I'm your older brother Mike and I was stepped over! It ain't the way I wanted it!

Fredo was seething with jealousy and resentment, so consumed with being stepped over
and he can only get the Donship if the current Don was dead or sent to prison

The Donship was brought up (explicitly) in his outburst and I reckon, is really the issue that he may feel will get the respect that he so desperately craves, for him.

“Let’s be honest Michael initially did give him [Fredo] a pass” Ref: Desert Inn until Fredo's full extent of Fredo's deeper involvement with Roth against his kid brother and treachery were revealed in Fredo's outburst in the boathouse

If he had volunteered the information he knew about the Senate hearing which he deliberately and deceitfully concealed even after his betrayal, the Tahoe shooting then "redeeming feature." perhaps could give him the benefit of the doubt but he cunningly withheld it, for Michael to commit perjury and sent to prison, to become the Don-:


True Pete Fredo was the only contender with “the motive and the incentive” for opening the drapes “because he was cooperating with Ola against his brother”

Look -- we are all reasonable Godfather fans here; That was my two cents worth but interested in others' perspective, interpretations / speculations as to,
1. who else had the motive and incentive to open the drapes
2. what was his “little help” -- it'd be good for the family
3. what was “something in it for me -- on my own”
4. why bring up the Donship (explicitly) in his outburst if he was not after to be Don
5. what was he doing cooperating with Ola against his brother” in the first place
6. why did he deliberately and deceitfully conceal the Senate hearing
7. why did he cunningly withhold the information he knew
8. why was he seething with jealousy and resentment, so consumed with being stepped over if it was not an issue
9. how Fredo, opening the drapes to Michael and Kay's bedroom on Johnny Ola's orders, did not have nefarious intent.

I'm confused by the use of "motive and incentive." Anyone who was assisting Roth would have motive and incentive to open the drapes. We don't know who that might be, but it seems unlikely that Fredo was the only traitor involved in the hit.

If you mean "opportunity," anyone involved in Corleone security might have access to the drapes, including Rocco who is often listed as a possible traitor in the family.

What is Fredo's failure, anyway? He tells Michael he never met Roth or Ola, then lets slip that he's been with Ola in Havana. What else?

. Seems like you’re desperately looking for something that isn’t there. Now Fredo is devious and cunning? I mean come on

4. Fredo's character is completely changed from the novel to the first movie, and changed quite a bit again from the first to second movie. Fredo was learning under Moe Green. By GF2, Moe is gone and the Corleones have four hotels, so you'd think Fredo would be of some use to the family. Instead, he's running brothels and seems to be someone Michael wouldn't take a meeting with if Fredo wasn't his brother. What happened? We don't know.

6. What everyone knows about the Senate hearing is one of the most curious questions in GF2. We know the Senate lawyer Questadt was right behind Roth in Havana, in Michael's direct line of sight. Why? We don't know.

8. I'll suggest again that Fredo may have some motivation based in sexual frustration. This is evidenced by the deleted scene (which I think is included in some versions) where he and Deanna arrive at the party, by Deanna's mocking of him at the party, and by his confession to Michael that Fredo should have married a woman like Kay. It's all reminiscent of the very opening of the novel, where Johnny [edit] has professional problems but hits rock bottom because he can neither subdue nor satisfy his movie star wife.

Sure thing “I too can't see anyone else allowed into their home let alone” -- their bedroom and “anyone involved in Corleone security” would really have no business? being inside their Boss' bedroom So my take too, that leaves only Fredo

Extracts:
You are right Pete Rocco was discussed as a possible traitor and if my memory serves me right, was disregarded because if there was any suspicion at all, Rocco would be sleeping with the fishes when Michael returned from Havana, certainly not continuing to guard the lives of Michael, Michael's wife and their children -- the future of this family

Besides no way! Rocco knew what happened to Paulie – extermination!

Among others -

• "He tells Michael he never met Roth or Ola, then lets slip that he's been with Ola in Havana" [you mean Superman?!]
• Fredo's “little help” -- for “something in it for me -- on my own”
• Fredo kept the Senate hearing secret, from Michael
• Fredo withheld the information he knew, from Michael

“married a woman like Kay” No kidding!

Sadly Fredo was not part of Family matters nor Family business nor....And Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well --
Michael “wouldn't take [Fredo] to meetings perhaps because of Fredo's outburst at Greene-Michael meeting in Vegas “taking sides against the Family”

My take, we do know Fredo undoubtedly knew "about the Senate hearing" which Fredo "deliberately and deceitfully concealed even after his betrayal, the Tahoe shooting then cunningly withheld" the information from Michael

Fredo was living the life of his dreams! banging cocktail waitresses two at a time! away from all the challenges, difficulties and violence of Mob life back in New York

Then his kid brother is the Don....Fredo is running the brothels but Geary is the one having all the fun!

It could be a combination of all these factors –
1. loss of his dream life
2. loss of his good friend Moe
3. loss of the Donship
4. "sexual frustration"

No wonder Fredo jumped at the opportunity for the 'respect' of being "Roth's inside man” for “something in it for me -- on my own” for Fredo's "little help" to Ola Give this man a cigar!

I'm sure we're all quite impressed, particularly with your love for our Godfather facts

Whilst we can't ignore all the treacherous events leading up to Michael's painful decision, Michael still could have spared Fredo

Michael only made the decision to withdraw the pass Michael had given Fredo Ref: Desert Inn when it came to light Fredo's deep rooted jealousy and resentment - I'm your older brother Mike and I was stepped over! It ain't the way I wanted it! and after Fredo's grudging "The Senate Lawyer Questadt -- he belongs to Roth"

Extracts:
perhaps it was a twinge of conscience! that is the last time Fredo would 'sadly' see Michael alive!

Whilst tongue in cheek....Vito may have picked the wrong son!

Years ago, an alert poster spotted Questadt in that scene--I don't think anyone else had posted on that before. Then another poster turned up an earlier script treatment in which Michael was supposed to meet with Questadt in Havana; it was abandoned (jthere must be dozens of jettisoned treatments somewhere, along with heaven knows how many thousands of feet of film). My guess is that FFC was working from the earlier script when he included Questadt in the scene. All of the Hanvana scenes were filmed in the Dominican Republic. But, after he abandoned Michael meeting with Questadt, he couldn't return to the island to reshoot the scene without Questadt, and left it in, hoping no one would notice.



The quarreling couple emerged from a '57 Mercedes Benz 300SL Gullwing Coupe in that deleted scene. It was the most expensive import car sold in thr US that year. Fedo must have been doing very well int the Mickey Mouse nightclub business.

“I too can't see anyone else allowed into their home let alone” -- their bedroom and “anyone involved in Corleone security” would really have no business? being inside their Boss' bedroom So my take too, that leaves only Fredo -- only "Roth's inside man Fredo did it

Fredo undoubtedly knew "about the Senate hearing" which Fredo "deliberately and deceitfully concealed even after his betrayal, the Tahoe shooting then cunningly withheld" the information from Michael -- Michael prison Fredo Don

“married a woman like Kay” No kidding! -- Horror Kay Biggest hypocrite

Fredo is running the brothels but Geary is the one having all the fun!

I know the fun of these boards is to engage in speculation about things we don't see on screen but at least the speculation is usually grounded in things we do.

We don't see who opens the drapes but some of the posters here have made the assumption that Fredo did and have built all kinds of theories on that nonfactual foundation. Many of the posts here, as Don Lucchesi would say, are built on mud.

You can't credibly argue that Fredo knew it was a hit or was promised the Donship or anything else if your primary piece of evidence is "Well, he opened the drapes." Because you don't know that he did.

Pete has a very lucid post about an alternative theory (which I happen to agree with). He's been dismissed and shouted down.

I support the argument that it was likely one of the extra security men that was brought in to the party. It's certainly reasonable to think that security would have access to the bedrooms. Seems silly that they would be forbidden from inspecting the house prior to Michael's return.

Another point in favor of the traitor being a muscle guy is that it also provides an answer to the other big question from that scene: Who killed the assassins?

Unless we're going to say that the Fredo of GFII was not only "cunning and devious" but also an accomplished killer, there being a different inside man from Rocco's crew seems much more likely.

. Exactly. Like I said everyone has a right to their opinion. However right now those who stand by the argument that Fredo was “cunning, ruthless, and wanting to harm Mike there is very little evidence to support that argument. Whereas there is much more evidence that supports the argument that Fredo was simply duped by Roth and he didn’t know what was going to happen, he thought he was helping the Family and Mike. It was stupid obviously but there wasn’t ruthless intent

I'm not sure how the word "undoubtedly" is supposed to function there. For all we know, Fredo had some glancing contact with Questadt in Havana, and was as surprised as anyone to see Questadt on TV with the senators.

I know Some people keep bringing up the Senate lawyer to prove Fredo wanted to hurt Mike. Like Pete said we don’t know how long or to what degree Fredo knew. My feeling is that he was kept pretty much in the dark with that too. Let’s be honest if Fredo Really wanted to hurt Mike then why tell him about Questadt? He still ended up telling Mike which ended up helping Mike

Logically:

--If Roth wanted to have Michael killed in his bedroom, and...
--the drapes had to be opened so the gunmen could have a clear shot at Michael, and...
--a security guard was bribed or planted to open the drapes, then...

What would they need Fredo for?

Let's not forget that Kay was in the bed when the drapes were opened. We know this from her genuinely surprised "Michael, why are the drapes open?"

Which means they must have been closed when she retired for the night.

Whoever opened them must have had ninja-like stealth skills.

I long ago came to the conclusion that FFC just effed up the plotting. Makes for some spirited discussions though.

I think that it's a very reasonable inference that Fredo opened the drapes.

When that morphs into Fredo must have opened the drapes, and from there Fredo must have known it was going to be a hit, and then Fredo must have been promised to be boss, then I think the inference breaks down. It ignores that Fredo says he didn't know, that Michael says he knows Fredo didn't know, that a generation later Kay doesn't seem to have resentment that Fredo tried to kill her. It also undermines the real tragedy of the film, which is that Mike's own rigidity is leading him to murder his own brother - over a screwup.

TB, you raise a good point.

We know from the late-night phone call that Ola is using Fredo for information. ("Will he come alone?")

I'll speculate that they needed Fredo for something similar in Tahoe. Details about the security arrangements, ways in and out of the compound, etc.

Or maybe Fredo opened the drapes. Obviously, that's a possibility. I happen to think it's not the most likely scenario, but it might have happened.

But, as Pete says, it's a bit much to build all kinds of scenarios on guesswork about a sequence in the film that, when scrutinized carefully, doesn't entirely make sense.

I also agree with Pete that the subsequent actions of the characters argue against Fredo's culpability.

To his list, I'll add Michael's poignant confession to Cardinal Lamberto. It's hard to imagine Michael being so wracked with guilt over ordering the death of someone who not only came within a whisker of killing Michael, but also Kay and, potentially, Mary and Anthony. Nor would Michael describe an assassination attempt as "He injured me."

That's the Beauty of these films that we are still debating half a century on
So no real surprise there that our theories may morph into must have beens -- what else is left

1. Fredo also said he never met Ola
2. Michael says Fredo didn't know before his boathouse outburst
3. what was he getting in return for a very reasonable inference that Fredo opened the drapes and why
4. If this inference breaks down or it's not the most likely scenario What would they need Fredo for?

We'd also debated Michael could have spared Fredo but regrettably and sadly murdering his own brother seemed a good idea at that time -- and the stark contrast between Fredo's boathouse outburst and Michael's tormented, teary confession

True when scrutinized carefully, the all kinds of scenarios on guesswork about a sequence in the film -- for and against, doesn't entirely make sense. Then again That's the Beauty of these films that we are still debating half a century on

I reckon a pretty good case could be made, for and against Definitely one of the most debatable topics here over the years Still is

Exactly Woltz it is all assumptions -- uh -- Everything and each of us build our theories based around our assumptions because we don't see on screen and the same basis applies to both sides of the debate -- for and against

True We don't see who opens the drapes and we don't see who did not open the drapes either

So if some of the posters here have made the assumption that Fredo did and have built all kinds of theories on that nonfactual foundation, the counter debates are no different either as to the other posters who made the assumption that Fredo did not and have built all kinds of theories on that nonfactual foundation.

But to say Many of the posts here, as Don Lucchesi would say, are built on mud. dismissed and shouted down. -- to coin a phrase, is not the act of a Godfather friend

True we can't credibly argue that Fredo knew or not it was a hit or was promised the Donship or anything else or not on "Well, he opened the drapes." or "Well, he did not open the drapes." Because if we don't know that he did, you don't know that he did not either

Everyone's assumptions and their nonfactual theories is valid to them usually grounded in things for and against as they see fit

I reckon everyone's interpretations / speculations are worth considering in the spirit of the Board and whether we are receptive or not, their views are valid to them just as yours is to you

It is everyone's prerogative to engage in speculation about things we don't see on screen and we are still debating half a century on because perhaps no interpretations / speculations are wholly accurate or inaccurate....

Look -- we are all reasonable Godfather fans here; We are here because of our love of these movies Every one of us
Let's keep enjoying the fun of these boards, our Godfather melting pot of riveting perspective and spirited discussions without trying to invalidate and muddy Many of the posts here

We all draw the water from the same well after all -- we are not Fredo haters.

Fredo telling Michael about Questadt was painful to watch like pulling teeth

My take, for what it is worth!

• Drapes

Extracts:

If you are referring to my below post?
I would like to read a statement before this Board and put it in the record! That's a complete falsehood!!In fact, my counter point was posted with a question mark and was referencing Turnbull's post (which I happen to agree with)

My take, I still can't see Rocco's crew or especially the extra security men [outsiders] if any brought in to the party, allowed into -
Besides, in my view -

• Rocco would have secured the house well before the party started
• only authorised people eg: family would have been allowed in
• I doubt non-family would have been left wondering about especially in the Boss' bedroom, unescorted
• even got Pentangeli waiting in the lobby
• Rocco was escorting Ola's men when taking care of their hunger!

and the timing....

My take, for what it is worth!

Extracts:

Boathouse dialogue
My take, Fredo seemed to know now meant the Senate hearing and also knew -

• They've got Pentangeli
  [committee will produce a [star!] witness who collaborates the charges that were made against Michael and at which time Mr. Corleone may very well be subject to indictment for perjury]
• Questadt belongs to Roth

Hence my conclusion that Fredo -
1. had prior knowledge of the Senate hearing
2. withheld information that may very well be detrimental to Michael

Roth or Barzini? Whose plan was the best?

Whilst Fredo's concealment of the Senate hearing and withholding of the information Fredo knew, from Michael, ultimately made no difference whatsoever, the fact remains, Fredo never volunteered what Fredo knew even after the first hearing Why?

I know a few keep bringing up Questadt as “proof” that Fredo was trying to bring Mike down or that he was ruthless but like I’ve said before if that was the case then why tell Mike about it? If he truly wanted to bring Mike down then he would’ve kept quiet about it. Honestly we don’t know how long he knew about it or to what extent. Plus Fredo was obviously scared of Mike so in his mind he probably felt there was a good chance he would kill him the second he revealed that which is probably accurate. The fact remains that he still told Mike about the Senate lawyer. The fact remains that the only brother that purposely killed his own brother was….Mike. The fact remains that there is much more evidence that shows Fredo was simply duped by Roth and didn’t know it was going to be hit. Look I’m not saying Fredo did the right thing. It was incredibly stupid but I just dont see much evidence pointing to Fredo purposely being cunning enough to try and harm his brother. It seems like he simply wanted to do something g on his own and despite his nativity/stupidity he thought he was helping the Family and Mike. Hell even Mike himself admits that “I know Roth misled him and he didn’t know they were going to try and kill me”

I think that a security person, including Rocco, would more naturally be present around Michael's bedroom than Fredo would. Buildings don't get secured and then are left alone - that's why modern buildings have cameras, instead of just a guy at the desk. Someone may have slipped through or been concealed, so security makes their rounds.

In their very emotional confrontation, Fredo only tells Michael useless information. They've got Pentangeli. He bumped into Johnny in Beverly Hills. Questadt belongs to Roth. From that, you can either construct a series of musts to solve the mystery, or you can accept that there are things you don't know and move on to the drama between the brothers.

I haven't said this in several years, but if you want to solve the "mystery" of the story then Bussetta serves about as well as anybody. He could kill the shooters, he must have been around the compound because he's right there on the train with Michael when they return to the contemporary story, and when he kills Johnny they show him emerging, ghost-like, from a set of drapes. Again, I point this out not to assert its truth, but just to show how loose the script is respecting these matters. You can make a case for anything.

No doubt we can make a case for anything and we still are

I don't think the house would get secured before the party started and then left alone. I reckon someone would have been guarding the Doors all the time and vet people being let in However you are correct just shows how loose the script is respecting these matters.

I reckon huge risk for Rocco or a security person be present around their Boss' bedroom after the Boss' wife had retired for the night and the precision timing.... Kay just turns her back.... for the drapes opener as lucab19 posted even with ninja-like stealth skills

True Fredo only tells Michael useless information but he didn't know that. Questadt was so ineffective anyway but he obviously
1. had prior knowledge of the Senate hearing
2. withheld information that may very well be detrimental to Michael
If he hadn't already taken the necessary measures, bringing Frankie's brother over

While accepting that there are things we don't know and we don't and moving on to the drama between the brothers is fascinating enough but constructing a series of melting pot musts to try to solve the mystery, is definitely more challenging, infinitely interesting and more fun

We could keep going for 2000 years and still no right or wrong answer!
That's the Beauty of these films that we are still debating half a century on

As regards ghost-like, Bussetta, perhaps a possible contender but then he could have killed Michael, single-handed
There were plenty coat hangers and pillows, his preferred choice of killing but then again drama

• Bussetta

I am confused! How can Bussetta be a possible contender / be involved in the Tahoe shooting? Bussetta was Michael's man

Bussetta's “right there on the train with Michael when they return to the contemporary story” because Bussetta was whisked! from wherever by the same Travel Agency! that arranged Vincenzo Pentangeli’s speedy, miraculous appearance! at the Senate hearing

Did anyone else notice that .......

Bussetta's supposed to be very good with coat hangers but pillows....

it was -- Fredo all along...

Ten to one -- ten to one shot we said -- ten to one shot that the drapes were closed when Kay retired for the night

Whilst Michael owes! his life to that monkey of open drapes....

If my memory serves me right, Kay was already in bed when Michael comes in, looks at the drawing Anthony had left for Michael on the pillow, talks to Kay who was at this stage facing the window, moves towards and stands by the window - Michael's silhouette making an easy, perfect target

All the above seemingly happening over quite sometime before Kay's "Michael Why are the drapes open?"
If neither Michael nor Kay noticed! the drapes being open all this while, it throws our 'theory' the drapes were closed when Kay retired for the night - out of whack....

I now believe, it was -- Kay! all along....

I still think it’s a big reach to conclude that Fredo purposely was trying to hurt his brother. It just seems like there is much more evidence pointing to Fredo simply feeling in his mind he was doing something on his own To help the family and Mike

you raise a good point. I also like your funny papers

I'm gonna find out what the hell happened here!

Coppola used up all his directorial license creative considerations
Wonder he be amused or annoyed by our ongoing dissection of the minutiae of the Trilogy Great, Great and then GF3

Come on, kid, don't fool around!

Kay would not retired for the night that big window open So drapes were closed
She asleep when Michael comes in, woke up as he looks at the drawing

Fredo the traitor in the family

My two cents worth!

No doubt Fredo was guilty of something that significantly contributed to the Tahoe shooting

Can't see him killing the shooters so the little help, I reckon was opening the drapes

You are right Capri Kay was asleep
My take, Perfect! for the "drapes opener" who Ref: lucab19 "must have had ninja-like stealth skills" - sounds like.... Fredo! to me

Michael surviving the Tahoe shooting screws up all Fredo's arrangements!
oh! Fredo, It was all lies -- uh -- everything! among others -

• Never met Ola
  
  Quote

  Fredo: Two million dollars in the seat next to me in the plane
  What the hell is goin' on anyway? I'm totally in the dark
• Fredo knew what the hell is going on! Fredo was not totally in the dark
• Fredo knew Michael and Roth were in, on a big deal together
• I doubt Fredo knew anything about the actual negotiations that Michael was being 'tough on' but....
• even if Fredo knew, why would Fredo think it'd be good for the family? for Roth to get any inside help
• Why Fredo needed to be bribed with “something in it for me” reward? for it'd be good for the family
• and what was Fredo's little help? to get his reward

So how can we believe Fredo, when Fredo says -

We can't and We don't!

I too reckon, oh! Fredo, It was all lies -- uh -- everything! and what was Fredo's little help? to get his reward

I'd like to come at this from a slightly different angle:

In the boathouse, Frredo told Michael: "Johnny Ola bumped into me in Beverly Hills -- and he said that he wanted to talk -- he said that you and -- and -- Roth were in on a -- a -- big deal together. And that there was something in it for me if I'd help 'em out. He said that -- he said that -- you were bein' tough on the negotiations. But if they could get a little help -- and close the deal fast -- it'd be good for the family."

"A little help"? Fredo wasn't part of the Havana deal and Michael had no reason to tell him anyrhing about it--he even kept Tom out of the negotiations. Same for Ola: Why would he need to tell Fredo anything more than that Roth and Michael were negotiating "a big deal"? Even if Fredo had overheard or inferred something about Michael and Havana, and if he put that together with Ola's tale, he still couold not have had any details that would have been useful to Roth. So, what kind of "help" could he have given Ola?

I think it's a reasonable inference that he could open the drapes for him.

But, note the subsequent conversation with Johnny: "Will he come alone?...Just go along, everything will be alright FREDO -- PENTANGELI says he's willing to make the deal. All we want to know is if he's on the level or if he's gonna bring his boys...." So Johnny, at least, seems to think that Fredo has ways of gaining insights into the Corleone family that could be helpful to Roth.

Again, though, Fredo's basic character in GF2 is something of a mystery. At the end of the first movie, he seems to be at least useful working in a big casino-hotel. Now the Corleones have four of them, and Fredo's running a brothel. It doesn't make sense. Is the only reason Fredo's doing that in the movie is so Tom can tell Geary it's Fredo's place?

Voilà! There are Five! [could be even more!!] versions to The Godfather Saga

1. Coppola / Puzo's - “directorial license creative considerations”
2. Yours
3. *Mine
4. True - “directorial license creative considerations”
5. and Fredo's!

Disclaimer: *I had built many a Godfather House of cards!

My take, for what it is worth!

I believe, Roth and Ola knew / would have known -

• "Fredo wasn't part of the Havana deal" and couldn't pass on any inside information -- Roth didn't need any!

Because -

• Roth was the Pied piper! beating the drums! calling the tune!
• Roth already had the Havana business
• so much money was at stake for Michael not Roth
• Roth had Michael believing Michael was Roth's son -- Roth's successor -- Roth's heir apparent

My take, neither Roth nor Ola were after any information from Fredo at all whether it be the Havana deal or Pentangeli-Rosatos meeting because I believe, both Roth and Ola knew / would have known, Fredo didn't / wouldn't have any -- Roth didn't need any!

It seems to me Fredo's "little help" was opening the drapes which is the only viable help that I can see Fredo [needed to] pulling off that is useful.... not different to your [previous] train of thought

All Roth wanted, Michael dead and for Roth to continue living his retired investor on a pension!

My take, for what it is worth!

My take, neither Roth nor Ola were after any information from Fredo at all whether it be the Havana deal or Pentangeli-Rosatos meeting because I believe, both Roth and Ola knew / would have known, Fredo didn't / wouldn't have any -- Roth didn't need any!

I believe -

• Ola 'bumped' into Fredo in Beverly Hills -- to sound out and fuel Fredo's stepped over! resentment and for Fredo's “little help”? for “something in it for me -- on my own” reward
• Ola's phone call to Fredo was a warning, veiled threat “Your brother's not going to find out we talked” Don't go squealing or else....and also to reassure Fredo "Just go along, everything will be alright"
• and to let us, the audience know who is the traitor in the family
• I don't believe, Ola's phone call to Fredo was because Ola "thinks that Fredo has ways of gaining insights into the Corleone family that could be helpful to Roth" Fredo didn't have any for the Havana deal
• Besides I believe, Ola would have known that Fredo wouldn't even know there was a Pentangeli-Rosatos meeting, let alone....

Fredo was putting all he'd learnt! from his good friend Moe, to running all of the Corleone 'legitimate' business – “big casino-hotels, brothels, Fredo's specialty! Entertainment - in addition to Fredo Corleone airport Taxi service!

It looked like Fredo was in charge -- uh -- everything! Michael says after Fredo's boathouse outburst -

That's where my thoughts were taking me.

Pete, I believe that scene was pure directoral licence, designed to set up Fredo as the traitor. The scene immediately before it ends with Michael telling Pentangeli he wants Roth "relaxed...and then I'll know who the traitor in my family is." Logically,how would Fredo know that Michael had asked Pentangeli to meet with the Rosatos? And, how would Fredo know whether or not Pentangeli was gonna bring his boys?

I agree that Fredo's character in II is something of a complex mystery since he was such a nonentity in GF. Now, all of a sudden, he's nursing a big grudge against his brother and is conspiring with Michael's enemies in a deadly plot. It's a huge turnaround for him. And,sure, Fredo operating the brothel is a perfect setup for the trap they set for Geary. I'll go a step farther: Maybe running the brothel was part of Fredo's "Mickey Mouse nightclub" resentment--he served a rough and humiliating apprenticeship learning the casino business under Moe Greene, but Michael apparently isn't letting him anywhere near his casino empire,or including him in the Havana deal. A step even farther: Vito had contempt for Tattaglia because he was a pimp---what is Fredo now?

Ola knew / would have known - Fredo not know that Michael had asked Pentangeli to meet with the Rosatos? And, not know whether or not Pentangeli was gonna bring his boys?

no one has any other viable "little help" Fredo [needed to] pulling off

Michael already Roth's successor -- Roth's heir apparent
No negotiations little gift for the President and turn over Havana operation Roth didn't need any! information from Fredo

Just a note: the Johnny-Fredo conversation establishes Fredo as a traitor, it also establishes Ola (and presumably Roth) as the adversary. We don't really have a scene like Luca's murder or the Sollozzo-Tom dialogue, so without Johnny's phone call the audience could go deep into GF2 uncertain who the bad guy is.

. Eh that’s a big stretch. Again there is no evidence to suggest he was consciously conspiring with Roth to take down Mike. Being resentful is evidence because like I’ve mentioned before we’ve all probably had those type of feeling at some point in our lives but we don’t act on them. There is still much more evidence pointing to the fact that Fredo stupidly and naively thought he was helping Mike and the Family while at the same time doing it on own. I don’t think it’s a big departure from Part 1. In Part 1 we see him trying to be capable for his family but he can’t seem to do it as we saw with Vito’s assassination attempt and he breaks down. Same situation here he thought he was helping but it backfired.

As Pete posted, I think it's a reasonable inference that he could open the drapes for him.
True Turnbull That's where my thoughts been taking me, too.


No doubt Fredo was guilty of something that enabled the Tahoe shooting
Can't see him killing the shooters so the "little help" I too reckon was opening the drapes

We also can't overlook his many lies
Have we ever come up with any other viable "little help" that is useful that is other than opening the drapes?

True Turnbull he was such a nonentity in GF.
He had no problems with that because it was his father and older brother running the show

GF2 he's nursing a big grudge against his kid brother and is conspiring with Michael's enemies in a deadly plot because he was stepped over! by his kid brother


It looked like Fredo was in charge -- uh – everything! Otherwise why would Michael say I don't want to see you at the hotels --

He may not have been included in the Havana deal, Tom wasn't either
It looked like Fredo was running or involved in the casino empire – “big casino-hotels, brothels, Fredo's specialty! Entertainment - the whole operation

I too reckon, neither Roth nor Ola were after any information from Fredo at all whether it be the Havana deal or Pentangeli-Rosatos meeting because I too believe, both Roth and Ola knew / would have known, Fredo didn't / wouldn't have any -- Roth didn't need any!

Sums it all up

You are correct Johnny's phone call establishes to the audience, Fredo is the traitor in the family

We already know by the time of the phone call, Roth-Ola are the adversaries and their linking to the Tahoe shooting

If my memory serves me right, I can't recall any, from what we saw in the movie and/or the Board, any of us coming up with any other viable "little help" that we can see Fredo pulling off....

Was Fredo “learning the casino business under Moe Greene" or was Fredo banging cocktail waitresses two at a time!

"rough and humiliating apprenticeship"?!

• Geary set up Ref: J Geoff Malta Transcript - Inside a Fredo's club [one of many?]

Fredo and Tom walk in and shake hands with the Manager
The Manager says “Freddie, good to see ya” like he hadn't seen Fredo for awhile

Was Fredo continuing his old tricks! leaving the Manager, to oversee, the players got their drinks!

That was no Donship!

Spot on! Sums it all up indeed

There are probably a thousand things. The shooters have to access the property, conceal themselves there, find Michael's quarters, do the shooting, flee, then someone has to kill them, and they have to flee. Any of those functions might require "a little help." Note that Michael doesn't spend the movie searching for the drape opener. The drapes are never mentioned again.

How do we know that?

Michael told Pentangeli It was Hyman Roth that tried to have me killed. I know it was him.

Don't know Pete Any of those functions and smuggling in the machine guns too Very conspicuous, attracting attention Fredo pulling off?
Finding Michael's quarters is the easy bit because the drapes were open

Difficult -- not impossible for the GF2 deadly Fredo

. Again where is the evidence that Fredo was deadly?

Michael to Roth: "FRANK PENTANGELI came to my home and he asked my permission to get rid of the Rosato brothers. When I refused, he tried to have me killed."

He said both things to both men at different times. The Tahoe shooting brought out the Master Manipulator in Michael. First he practically reduced Tom to tears by telling hom "You're my brother." Then he practically brings Pentangeli to his knees by yelling at him, "...in my house,...in my bedrooom.. ," then asks Pentangeli to help him take his revenge. "Michael, anything..." (Frankie practically in tears). That's when Michael asks him to put his head in the lion's mouth by meeting with the Rosatps. Then he bullshits Roth by callng him "Mister Roth," then telling him he's a "great man," then asking his permission to whack Pentangeli. Great stuff, Mike! You'd have made a good Presidential candidate.

Roth started! the BS
The sequence was -
1. Tom
2. Roth
3. Pentangeli
4. Ola's phone call to Fredo

“Michael doesn't spend the movie searching for the drape opener” because Michael is a wise and considerate young man!

if anything in this life is certain -- if history has taught us anything -- Hell hath no fury like a brother stepped over!

Michael didn't ask the tough questions! among others -

• why would Roth and other partners, go along if Michael moved Klingman out and take over their Hotel
• why would Roth in Miami, interest himself in a two-bit beef between the Rosato brothers and Pentangeli, in New York and against Pentangeli, Michael's man
• why would Clemenza promise the Rosato brothers three territories in the Bronx after! he died
  [signing his own death warrant.... That was no heart attack]
• why would Clemenza promise anything? at all to the Rosato brothers
• who opened the drapes
• who killed the Tahoe assassins
• how did Roth know "The two million never got to the island"
• Then how did Roth know "Fredo brought a bag full of money" Okay Roth's sixth sense!
• how Fredo got out of Havana -- he must be somewhere in New York
• what happened to the Corleone family in New York, their loyal caporegime good old man Pentangeli, who was loyal to Vito for years, Cicci -- who did what to whom -- and taking care of their families
• how did Kay get the abortion
• what was Fredo's little help
• what was Fredo's something in it for me -- on my own

Then again if Michael had, what will we debate half a century on!

I'm done with this thread.

Right out my window! They're lying there dead!
Who open their drapes

why he asking his permission to whack Pentangeli. Michael's man

Roth started! the BS

Don't know Turnbull that he was asking his permission to whack Pentangeli.
I reckon it was a statement Then Pentangeli is a dead man, you don't object.

I can't see him being careless in thinking that Roth would buy and be fooled by that bullshit, the Top Mafia Don was asking his permission to whack his own man, who tried to have him killed.

I reckon Michael had worked out, on the Train, it was -- Roth all along... must be Bussetta's water concoction but wonder did Roth suspect he had

This Board's had debates -- for and against about things we don't see on screen for the last fifty years -- it's in our blood, believe me, I know. I've been coming here since the 20's.

tough question we ask Michael Why did he trust Fredo with Roth will never see the New Year.

This is a perfect example of how greed makes otherwise smart men stupid:

Of course Roth should have wondered why the mighty Michael Corleone would ask his permission to whack one of his ow subordinates. But Roth was too greedy for the $2million to see the trap Michael was setting for him. For his part, Michael should have been asking himself why Roth--who lived in Miami and had business interests in Nevada and Cuba--would interest himself in a two-bit dispute between Pentangeli and the Rosato brothers over three territories in the Bronx. But he was too greedy for Roth's Havana casinos to see the trap Roth was laying for him.

True that was one of the tough questions Michael should have been asking himself
also if it wasn't a statement, then Roth should have been asking himself, why the mighty Michael Corleone was laying down to him

It also should have occurred to Michael that Mr. Roth would work out when the dead man Pentangeli turns up at the Rosatos, he'd been ruled out and he could be suspecting him

I too reckon, their traps for each other, ended up trapping themselves

Sure thing That was one of the tough questions “Michael should have been asking himself”

However I believe that was Roth's grave mistake as well "interesting himself in that two-bit dispute" which showed his hand
ie: if not for Roth's that mistake, Michael could never have suspected Roth, in the Tahoe shooting
1. Roth had just gifted! Michael their hotel by going along with Michael moving Klingman out
2. Roth was in the process of gifting! Roth's Havana empire

• Greed

I don't think Roth was a greedy man
Roth was living the life of a retired investor on a pension! in a modest house, tuna sandwich for lunch....

I believe Roth was not greedy for Michael's $2 million [Michael was all set to be murdered New Year's Eve with or without the $2 million] but of course if it fell into Roth's lap, Roth will take it Bonus! and added bonus Michael's own money paying for his own murder

I also believe the $2 million was another clever tactic of Roth's, to lure Michael to the Havana carrot
1. Michael to meet the President and be anointed as Roth's successor -- Roth's heir apparent
2. and bribe the President with Michael's little gift for continued protection and free to make their profits

Whilst Michael's greed made him careless, saying stupid things and nearly undone himself with Roth, Roth's lust for revenge, undone himself with Michael

Roth was as murderous and ruthless, turning brother against brother

He exploited the troubled and vulnerable Fredo to exact his revenge on Michael

He never thought about Fredo -- he never gave a damn about him even if he had become the Don how he may have suffered for the rest of his life that I killed -- he contributed to the death of my brother. He injured me. I killed my mother’s son. I killed my father's son.

He was to have been dead that night so luring Michael to Havana was a ruse to keep him completely relaxed, and confident, in our friendship until the Tahoe shooting

How He injured me.
Fredo injured him Michael not injured him

He warned don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever.

. So that means it’s ok to murder your brother? Plus even Mike himself said “I know Roth misled him and he didnt know they were going to try and kill me”

Is anyone here getting tired of this discussion?

. Honestly a little bit lol.

One for the road!

Whilst Michael's greed made him careless, saying stupid things....

Both Michael and Roth continuing their charade!
Just the two of them 'completely relaxed and confident' in their friendship! No Neri / Bussetta or Ola

Roth's house
What is going on here?!

• killing Pentangeli and giving the Rosato brothers the three territories in the Bronx - ensures? Michael's important business with Roth -- remains undisturbed
• once the above is done, nothing interferes with Michael and Roth's future plans
• how does Roth have clout and control not starting another war
• and why would "the mighty Michael Corleone" visit? "his own subordinate" "who tried to have him killed"
• just send Neri or Rocco “Michael Corleone says Hello”!

Nobody “would buy and be fooled” by that BS!

I am not trying to untire! this thread but I only picked this up now.... and am confused! why the Rosato brothers tried to kill Pentangeli?

Pentangeli's house - Michael to Pentangeli:
What was Michael expecting to happen at the Pentangeli-Rosatos meeting? I believed, in the old days! -

• Michael was not expecting Pentangeli to come to any harm other than the humiliating back down, perhaps handing over the three territories and in the process looking weak etc.
• Besides if Pentangeli is killed and Rosato brothers, Roth's ally take over the Corleone operation then Michael loses his muscle and becomes just another casino operator, easy pickings for anyone
• Hence Michael would never want to lose his muscle which is the only thing that makes Michael untouchable!
• and Michael can't afford to let his man's murder go unavenged - danger of starting another war

So....

• Why would Michael envisage the Rosato brothers would fail Roth
• and How

I hadn't picked up on this either
1. how they can fail him
2. and how that would make their relationship still good

I will have to watch that scene again but going by the dialog, it doesn't make any sense
Then again, Michael's been careless, saying stupid things....

I too reckon Michael was not expecting Pentangeli to come to any harm because he needs the muscle and if he did, no doubt Michael can't afford to let his man's murder go unavenged

It made him look ridiculous! can he lay it on any thicker

he did

Good point Capri Michael did let his man's murder go unavenged indeed
and Michael didn't know “Alive -- Pentangeli is alive”

There is also the insult of the C-note

I doubt Roth would have sanctioned Pentangeli's murder but perhaps Roth did?
Rosato brothers small potatoes!

even though Michael was to have been killed in Havana, the Corleones would have lost their muscle, their Caporegime so that Neri and Rocco can't retaliate swiftly

The Rosato brothers could have taken over and well established themselves in New York, by the time the Corleones have regrouped [if] following all the chaos ensued if Michael had been killed in Havana and no muscle

True same as Vito's shooting couldn't have happened without Barzini sanctioning it

Rosato brothers small potatoes! backed up by that Jew in Miami, with clout

how he think he'll be able to find out who the traitor in my family was in Havana

The traitor in his family, his own brother Fredo was brought to Havana on the pretext of bringing a bag full of money, for him to find out

Mystery why he had the money brought over after he witnessed the rebels can win and he just wanna -- just wanna wait

Not very logical--the risk would have been enormous.

I posted on this a long time ago. One possibility is that Michael needed to keep stringing Roth along with the promise of the $2 million until he found out who was the traitor. As he told Pentangeli, he needed Roth relaxed, confident that their relationship was still good. Having the $2 million brought to Havana was one way to keep that going.

Another possibility (admittedly a stretch): Michael knew the rebels would win. He knew he had to have Roth killed, but he still wanted Roth's Havana holdings. He figired the rebels would be just as open to corruption as was Batista, and would want the casinos to stay open because they brought in tourist dollars. By bringing the money, he was signaling to the about-to-be new regime that he was willing to make a big buy-in.

It seems to me, Michael had tipped his hand to Roth that their relationship was not still good?
1. by not bringing the $2 million with him
2. then not handing over the bag full of money Fredo brought

Why did Michael think the key, to finding out - who was the traitor in his family - was in Havana

Superman excitement! dialogue
If

• Fredo didn't get roped in, to come to Havana to bring the $2 million
• Geary hadn't asked Fredo “where did you find this place?”
• Fredo wasn't so taken up with Superman's....! [Cazale's superb acting – Fredo's face wow!]
• thus Fredo had not revealed himself as the traitor in the family

Then what?!

What you say makes sense that no one would have expected the Castro rebels new regime to kill the goose that was laying the golden eggs – to shut the casinos down and following on, the tourist business bringing in the dollars

Businessmen! like Roth and Michael “willing to make a big buy-in” with any one, be it Batista or Castro for protection, so that Michael and Roth are free to make their profits

Everyone else even Roth believed Batista -- we will tolerate no guerrillas in casinos, or the swimming pools. Not Michael

Michael had tipped his hand to Roth, by turning up without the $2 million

Then having the money brought over makes no sense to me. I too reckon Not very logical--the risk would have been enormous.
and no valid reason either. He had the plane waiting to take them to Miami in an hour. He wasn't hanging around to make a big buy-in.

Pacino's superb acting – Mentally wrecked, physically sick in great pain realizing that Fredo is the Family traitor
If Fredo had not revealed himself as the traitor in the family then all live happily for a hundred years -- the family.

Not true If traitor not found more attempt to kill him

While Michael seems to have ascertained Batista was governing on borrowed time, Michael could not have known Batista's resignation would happen at the New Year's Eve party – that night

Michael still hanging around at the party even after finding out that Fredo was the Family traitor and knowing Michael only had until the party was over when Michael would be assassinated – Michael will never see the New Year - Beats me!

Michael still hanging around is up there with,
1. who killed the Tahoe assassins
2. why tell Fredo
3. how did Kay get the abortion

More Bad Writing in III

No doubt there was strong provocation by Fredo, I reckon, he would still have been spared if he didn't have the boathouse outburst

I’d say one reason Mikey didn’t hand the money over right away was to string along Roth because he knew if he paid him right away when they met then their plan is in motion to kill him. The longer he strings Roth along the more time he buys himself no matter what. Just him slow playing his hand while trying to figure out who turned on him.

Also he had to bring the money I think because Roth had people watching as he mentioned Mike bringing the money to the island. If it doesn’t turn up then he’ll think for sure there is no deal

Sure thing, my take too and I believe many have posted as well Fredo was to have been spared and would have been spared even after the “something in it for me -- on my own” but it was the stepped over! jealousy and resentment outburst that was the final nail indeed

However still could / should have been spared

Sure thing the real reason for courier! Fredo was to reveal the traitor in the family “who turned on him” to Michael
We, the audience already knew [courtesy of Ola's late night phone call to Fredo]

• Michael and Fredo having drinks in Havana

Michael already knew that Roth's “plan is in motion to kill him” after the New Year's Eve party as above ie: No more time to buy

Point taken about Michael bringing the money over “to string along Roth” although by then it seemed neither Michael nor Roth, were fooling or fooled by the other

Michael was all set to be murdered after the party with or without the $2 million but of course if it fell into Roth's lap, Roth will take it Bonus! and added bonus Michael's own money paying for his own murder