Corleone women

Carmela
you can never lose your family but the others can and did because of her murderous husband and sons

Sandra and Teresa
must have known when they married, what their family business was, criminal Underboss, future Don and Consigliere to murderers

Deanna
Mystery! why did she marry Fredo

Apollonia
married Michael, an American -- hiding in Sicily... There are people who'd pay a lot of money for that information...

Kay
knew when she married he was Mafia

what about Connie

She was born into the family These women chose to marry criminals

Vito wasn't a criminal when he married Carmela. He worked in the grocery.

You are correct Carmela was the exception My oversight

• Carmela

Sure thing when Vito and Carmela married, Vito was a law abiding shop employee in a Grocery store and only became Mafia after

However Carmela seemingly had no qualms going along with her -
1. murderous husband Vito and sons Sonny and Michael
2. daughter Connie's spousal abuse

and teasing her son Fredo who had low self-esteem issues Havana when the brothers were having drinks -
Also the families who marry their daughters off to Mob men - status quo? deemed a good catch? Rich widow?!

• Apollonia

The Vitellis must have known / found out? that Michael was hiding in Sicily because of Michael's murder charges of the New York City Police Captain and with him a man named Virgil Sollozzo

• Deanna

Mystery! indeed

I seem to recall there was a deleted scene of Fredo and Deanna arriving for Anthony's party in which Deanna was taunting Fredo because Fredo didn't want Michael to see Deanna's indecorous behaviour or similar

How did Deanna know who Rocco was / his name?!

The dialogue referenced above is in the movie. Another Fredo-Deanna confrontation was deleted:

https://youtu.be/MkVdDZozUKc



I don't think we know much about Deanna. There's a Deanna in the novel, but this doesn't seem like her. She seems more like Johnny's second wife. Failed starlet? Aging call girl?



She should know him - he was in the family before she was.

I too reckon Carmela was as bad, condoning their murderous actions

Connie and Kay
Why did they make them so different from the novel?

They were made miserable, bitter and twisted in the movie whereas in the novel Connie apologized to Michael for her outburst about Carlo and Kay had accepted that he was a Mob Boss even that he was always fair

and they all lived happily for a hundred years!

I think this goes back to the notion of Michael as the intellectual brother who intended to be a math professor. Fairness doesn't necessarily mean generous. On the one hand, it precludes him from acting with malice, but on the other it precludes mercy. No matter who you are, you get out of Michael what you put into him. Unfortunately, everyone else is human, so they'll all fail Michael in the end.

Fredo too was made so different from the novel from the loving, obedient, dutiful son and Puzo wanted everyone here to know -- there's not gonna be no trouble from Fredo!

Sure thing The women were culpable too
They knew what their husbands' business was knew their rich, privileged life was funded by tainted money from other people's murder, misery and blood

• Kay

Kay enjoyed the spoils of the blood money for more than 7 odd years until her bedroom was machine gun sprayed when it suddenly dawned! on her, this unholy and evil Sicilian thing that's been going on for 2,000 years must all end

• Deanna

New question! Why did Fredo marry Deanna?

Thanks for the link Pete This deleted scene is worse than I remembered!

Why humiliate Fredo in every turn including not a real man insult and in front of so many people at his brother's - the Head of the family - house too Guests and Staff and all

It looked like it was Deanna's first visit to Tahoe?
You could be right though Only Merle and Deanna were introduced, others seem to know Fredo's bride! especially Carmela looked thrilled! to see her daughter-in-law, Deanna

I think Vito's rejoinder to this is that his wife isn't culpable because he isn't culpable. He is doing what the President does, what the Senator does, what General does, what the Industrialist does, what the Banker and Lawyer do. They all kill and steal. Vito seems resigned to a rough time when he has to answer to God, but he simply doesn't recognize that he has to answer to these others.

Men controlled everything, their wives their property

He were a real important -- how do you say -- a pezzonovante -- a big shot the son of a pezzonovante

first visit to Tahoe? How She should know him

I'm not clear on why it's important how many times Deanna's been to Tahoe.

Up the thread a bit, Deanna is not introduced to Merle for the first time. Connie says to Merle, "Merle, you've met my sister-in-law, Deanna."

1. He took care of his father
2. mother lived with them
3. invited Connie to stay with the family, having everything she wanted
4. He was prepared to work on their marriage with Kay
5. always took care of Fredo
6. large dowry for Sonny's daughter

I reckon, people acting with malice cannot be shown mercy especially in their kill or be killed world and for repeated offenses
And a man in his position can't afford to be made to look ridiculous!

except the passage on The Queen!

I mean no disrespect to you or this Forum....It is just that I can't see Deanna bothering with Michael's hired help
Just intrigued Deanna knew Rocco and addressed Rocco by his name

You are right Pete not "important how many times Deanna's been to Tahoe" small potatoes!
and as you say, Deanna and Merle must have met before Anthony's party “Deanna met Merle in Vegas I saw her with him!” Pleasure!

Well put Vito was delusional indeed

He deluded himself, among others -

• The Corleones were not murderers
• Drugs was a dirty business Then it was not, when used as leverage for Michael's safe return
• Michael's American Girlfriend would make a good Mob Wife
• Michael can be legitimate after consolidating his nefarious power with murders and more murders
• Fredo would go along with his kid brother being the Head of the family
• Connie would go along with Carlo answering for Santino

What about others taking care of their families?

Murder, extortion, threat of lethal violence, comply or die - to take care of his family, indulging his Godson, sentimental weakness for his children and spoiling them – but evil, murderous, ruthlessly destroying other families, leaving them without their fathers, sons, brothers, husbands Nice!

Anybody kinda rooting for Roth to beat Mike?

• Vito shut Carmela out of business too, starting with when he went into the bathroom and closed the door on her after receiving the bundle of guns from Clemenza
• Carlo beat up pregnant Connie but Vito did nothing because once married the woman is deemed her husband's property
• Sonny was unfaithful to his wife, Sandra which Vito was aware of
• Fredo told Michael at Anthony's party "He can't control his wife"
• Pentangeli dismissed / ignored his wife's concerns, when Michael was waiting for Pentangeli in Pentangeli's house
• Roth's wife Marcia seemed totally ignorant of what Roth's business really was

Alarming and disappointingly the Corleone women accepted and accommodated being the "property" of the men and even schooled the younger women of their place

At the dinner table, after Vito's discharge from the hospital -

Connie her face all bruised and swollen after yet another beating by Carlo, to Sonny “It was my fault”

While no doubt times were different, wonder why they chose to portray Connie and Kay in a manner, such contrast to the novel

Fredo too marrying a woman like Deanna, being humiliated by her
I don't think he married, in the novel

Well said almost worked for him if not for the loss of Sonny, catapulting Michael into taking over

Still could have cut his losses, handed over to Clemenza and Tessio and walked away, retired.
1. Vito alive
2. Michael could have lived a "legitimate" life in Nevada
3. Fredo continues learning the casino business with Greene

Would they make Carlo still answer for Santino

Nothing could stop Carlo from having to answer for Sonny.

Even in this re-imagined Corleone world, with Michael having gone legitimate, I reckon he would do it himself.

Would Nice guy Vito have stomach to make his daughter widow

What are your examples of people here asserting that Vito is a nice guy?

I reckon, Vito is seen through rose-colored glasses

1. swore on the souls of my grandchildren -- that I will not be the one to break the peace deal knowing he'd get Michael to
2. If Michael gives his permission, then you have my blessing...to form their own Family knowing he can't
3. told Carlo he is happy for him knowing he was going to be answering for Santino
4. left Michael to make his daughter a widow

Nice! guy Vito left a murderous legacy for I never wanted this for you son and caused untold misery

He told Michael I don't want anything to happen to him while I am alive.

That's not in the movie. I'm pretty sure it's not in the book either? Do you have a source for it?

My take, even if Sonny was not killed, it was never going to work for them - Well, Buckleys and None - known murderous, top Mafia, Corleone family and Michael Corleone in "this clean country, in his oily hair -- dressed up in those silk suits and try to pass himself off as decent American Senator"!

Sure thing Carlo was always a dead man however keeping Carlo close / closer, without raising any suspicions until Vito's death, to answer for Santino, would have been no easy, almost impossible task

It was always going to be Michael's job to get Carlo to answer for Santino because Nice! Guy Vito would never do it himself
Vito left it for Michael to be the “lousy cold-hearted bastard” and make his daughter a widow Thanks! Pop

Nice! guy Vito

Read the papers -- read the papers!

I too reckon, Crime and Politics never going to work for them but Crime and "legitimacy" could, same as Pentangeli and Michael

No doubt Nice! Guy Vito wouldn't want his daughter to think he is “lousy cold-hearted bastard” but okay for her brother

At Anthony's party

Apollonia was honking the car horn impatiently when Don Tommasino was telling Michael that Sonny had been killed

While no doubt she would have been like Carmela and kept the family together, no interfering in his business, no abortion, no divorce, I wonder how their marriage would grow once the Thunder has bolted and the lust cools!

• Apollonia

Well, Calo said “She'll make a good American wife”

When Michael was teaching Apollonia to drive [actually it was the other way around! Pacino couldn't drive then!] - Don Tommasino's car drives in, sounding its horn Michael walks over to it and helps Tommasino out of the car as Apollonia runs over and kisses him
My take, for what it is worth!
I acknowledge whilst Apollonia may not have been at the same maturity nor perhaps intelligence level as Michael – not grasping the urgency ie: when Don Tommasino's car drives in sounding its horn nor the seriousness of Don Tommasino and Michael's solemn conversation - Apollonia, at that time was only 16 years old? and been living seemingly a sheltered life in conservative Sicily

Michael was a different man then....loving, protective towards Apollonia She was keen and accepting who he was
Both Michael and Apollonia would have grown together and lived happily for a hundred years!

Godfather 3 - Michael talking to Anthony and Mary about Apollonia

Apollonia would have accepted Michael for what he was , unlike Kay, who tried (hoped) to change him. The key is that marvelous scene at Sr. Vitelli's cafe, when Michael tells him he's hiding from the police in America and "Some people would pay a lot of money for that information but then your daughter would lose a father instead of gaining a husband." Notice that 'Sr. V is unfazed by Michael's admission that he's on the lam for a probable major crime--possibly mob-related--doesn't even bat an eyelash before inviting Michael to his home. Rural Sicilians of that era--and perhaps this era-intensely distrusted authorities, especially police; and were ready to accept fugitives as, (ahem) "legitimate." Apollonia was part of that same accepting milieu. Michael didn't have to give her all that BS he had to hand Kay when he wooed her in New Hampshire. I'm not making excuses for Michael's criminal nature, I'm just saying that he was in the right place for him when he got hit by the fulmine.

I think Michael may have had the opposite problem with Apollonia as he had with Kay.

Much of Michael's desire to track down and marry Kay had to do with her being a WASP. He used her as part of his plan to be accepted by the American pezzonovante.

Remember, his lifelong desire was to be considered "legitimate" (even if he wasn't).

How would Apollonia have helped with that? Would a rural Sicilian girl have the ability to drink coffee and make small talk with people like Senator Geary's wife?

She didn't seem too eager to learn English, much less to become an American society dame. I can't imagine she would have had any interest in playing the part of a successful businessman's wife.

I think, once the Thunderbolt faded, Michael would have grown very weary of Apollonia and considered her a hindrance to achieving his goals.

If that came to pass, I wonder how he would have handled it?

You make excellent points, LW. But, at that point in Michael's life, I doubt he was thinking along those lines. The fulminel was still ringing in his ears. And, he was probably figuring that Sonny would be the head of the family until Vito recovered, and he could return to "civilian" life. Of course Apollonia would have been a hindrance to to his obsessive quest for "legitimacy in his Donship, as you said. Hence his bloodless, passionless wooing of Kay in New Hampshire after his return.

This leads to another question: Do you think that he told Kay that he had married in Sicily, and that his bride was killed by mistake by a bomb intended for him? Would Kay have agreed to marry him if he had?

Fair points, TB. I agree that Michael wasn't thinking about that when he married Apollonia. I was just speculating on an alternative timeline.

Good question about Kay. She was certainly aware if it by the time of GFIII, and Michael talked about it quite openly in Sicily.

But it's hard to imagine him telling Kay about that before they married and I'd guess not before the Tahoe assassination attempt, as Kay didn't seem to anticipate any personal danger to her or their children.

No doubt Apollonia did accept Michael for what he was She was keen and accepting who he was

While Michael's wooing of Kay may have been bloodless, passionless, I don't think he gave any BS to her.
I reckon it was one of the very few, perhaps the only time he was honest with her, truly believing in what he was saying

While once the Thunderbolt faded, even if Michael had grown very weary of Apollonia, he never would have lost the family

I didn't think anyone other than Vito knew about Apollonia but Kay for someone who was banished, knew a lot of inside stuff even that Michael killed Fredo

As regards Kay being a WASP, I reckon WASP is our doing!
also WASP Kay was already Michael's girlfriend, long before Michael having to become the Don and the quest for "legitimacy"

Good point about Apollonia's interest in playing the part of a successful businessman's wife though Kay hosting Senator Geary's wife didn't help Michael in any way

Roth's wife was not at his birthday party in spite of being in Havana She was also sent off to play bingo

The role of the women, at that time were!
1. bringing their sons into this world
2. cooking, cleaning
3. don't give any reason for their husbands to hit them

Honest with her?? Believing in what he was saying?? "The Corleone family will be completely legitimate in five years"?? The family under Michael wouldn't be "legitimate" in five, or seven, or any years, except in Michael's warped, twisted way of imagining "legitimacy.". Try to count all the killings he ordered, even after he moved to Nevada. Even in 1979, decades after he married Kay, he still controlled the Commission, and was ordering murders right up to the end.

He truly believed in what he was saying
Both were delusional that "The Corleone family's decades of criminal activities will be completely legitimate in five years" let alone

I reckon The family under Michael was "legitimate" he had achieved the semblance of legitimacy, decent American, successful businessman, philanthropist and as We see in GFIII more "legitimate" than ever

While Michael's "legitimate" front was the Elephant in the room, we saw how people were not treating him as crime boss to his face and going along with his "legitimate" front

As regards all the killings he ordered, even after he moved to Nevada They hit us so -- we hit 'em back.

My take, both Michael and Kay deluded themselves However when Michael told Kay “He truly believed in what he was saying” that it would be so

Why would Michael need to lie to Kay to get her to marry him?

Michael had no qualms marrying Apollonia and surely could have married a nice Italian origin bride, suitable Mob Boss wife! instead of seeking Kay out

1. boredom
2. uncertainty
3. loneliness
4. his friends -- are his bodyguards!

• Kay

Why did Kay marry Michael?and knowing Michael was now Mafia

She is married to Merle 2.0 in Godfather III

It was all about Michael punishment, misery, regrets, lonely death He was put through the wringer crying over Don Tommasino coffin, forgiveness from Kay, teary confession to Cardinal Lamberto and more

Kay not a murmur even the abortion

He paid dearly, deeply but she got off scot-free