Vito's vs Michael's caporegime

Paulie directly and Tessio indirectly betrayed Vito

Paulie was a buttonman, not a capo.

Tessio indirectly betrayed deceased Vito by directly betraying the living Michael?

T
You could say that. Tess disobeyed Vito's command (in the fishtank scene) to "be a friend to Michael." But, he waited until after Vito died to make his deal with Barzini.

Michael's no betraying like Paulie and Tessio

Don't know Turnbull I reckon he went straight to Barzini from the fishtank scene and made his deal before Vito died

Michael's Frankie Pentangeli and Willie Cicci betrayed Michael but they showed cause!

I too believe Tessio had made his deal with Barzini when Vito was alive
Barzini and Michael's meeting to straighten any of their problems out! was already arranged before Vito's funeral

Breaking the peace?
What is our take if Vito hadn't died when he 'conveniently'! did?

If Michael would have still gone ahead with the Great massacre, Tessio-Barzini deal / Barzini-Michael meeting becomes moot and Tessio is off the hook....

Vito was expecting Barzini-Michael meeting to take place regardless of whether Vito was alive or not? Vito to Michael: Garden scene

Tess may have decided at the fishtank scene that he would go against Michael because he thought Michael was soft on Barzini. BUT: Barzini didn't make his move against Vito--he waited until after Vito died. I think Tess probably contacted Barzini right after Vito died, and cemented his plan (a meeting with Barxini where Michael would be "safe") at the burial.

Certainly Vito was expecting Barzini to move against Michael, but not him (Vito). Barzini figured Michael was weak, and would be weaker without Vito's guidance and counsel. That's why he waited until Vito died before he made his move--and why I believe Tess didn't approach Barzini right after the fishtank scene (see above).

Here's the thing though if Vito hadn't died when he 'conveniently'! did?

Are you saying Tessio-Barzini deal / Barzini-Michael meeting were all arranged and cemented only between Vito's death and funeral

Barzini didn't wait until Vito died before He moved against him when he was alive
1. sanctioning killing him
2. killing Sonny
3. car bomb attempt on Michael
4. chiseling Tessio's territories
5. backing Moe Greene

Maybe so but they didn't set him up to be murdered

I'm surmising that Tessio had made up his mind not to go with Michael after the fishtank scene. I don't believe he would have approached Barzini with a plan until Vito died. Tess may have had scruples about loyalty to Vito. He may have hoped that Vito might still take his side and influence Michael. Or, more likely, Tessio, "always smarter," would have seen that it would be dangerous to approach Barzini before Vito died--what if Barz thought it was a plot by Vito (a la Luca/Tattaglia) to suss out Barz's intentions? An approach after Vito died, with "weak" Michael in charge, would be less suspicious.

1,2 and 3 all happened before the Commission meeting and the peace agreement. 4 was not covered by the peace agreement. Nor was 5, if it was even true that Moe "talked to Barzini."

Good point about before and after events of the Commission meeting and the peace agreement

As regards Tessio-Barzini plot (a la Luca/Tattaglia) would Vito be "ridiculous" and “incredibly stupid” again?! Surely not!
[borrowing from waynethegame Ref: Michael and Pentangeli's conversation]

and "always smarter," Tessio should have had more faith in his Don and "be a friend to Michael."
[borrowing from mustachepete Ref: Corleones destiny “Characters have to be credited with free will” to mess up! “or there's no story to tell”]

As such, Tessio's betrayal was pivotal in the massacre....All the other Dons were completely relaxed and confident that Michael was on his way to his death and were going about their routine as normal and made fairly easy targets for Michael's men
They were all taken by surprise as the Corleones had intended Perfect!

Tessio didn't have Michael's brain -- uh -- for big deals

Michael immediately quizzed Tessio “You talked to him”? [Barzini] when Tessio told Michael at Vito's burial, Barzini wants to arrange a meeting to straighten any of their problems out....

Tessio/Barzini meeting

Therein lies the issue?

Any move against Michael after their "Commission meeting and the peace agreement" is a move against Vito unless Barzini "waited until Vito died before he made his move--"

However neither Tessio nor Barzini could have 'known' when Vito will die even with "The Godfather's sick, right"?

I don't want anything to happen to him [Michael] while his father's alive!

This is a fascinating question and I don't know if it has been fully answered.

As Turnbull noted, the blatant acts of hostility occurred before the Commission Meeting. The acts that occurred after were not direct violations of the peace agreement.

So what would have happened if Vito had held on for another 10 years? His death was not seen as imminent, so for all anyone knew, that was a realistic possibility.

I could see Barzini continuing to chisel away at Corleone territories and assets in such a way that is not an outright violation of the agreement, but would try to get the Corleones to retaliate in a way that is a breach. Then all other families would join Barzini in outright war.

Of course, if I could see Barzini's gameplan, then Vito and Michael would too, but what could they do to stop or counter it?

I reckon not a lot in their weakened state and they could be annihilated or perhaps call for help from their friends in the business like the Molinari Family

They can win!

Clemenza and Tessio's crew were full strength, Rocco's secret regime even if it was not up to the desired level at that time, it is still extra, in addition to their existing muscle

I believe there is a lot the Corleones can do to "stop or counter" and win the Gangland war against even combined Barzini and all the other families

• Barzini outed himself as the puppeteer in this Sollozzo business and Sonny's murder, at their Commission meeting – not a smart move!

• Tattaglia is a pimp

• Cuneo and Strachi small potatoes

Obviously the “outright war” throws a spanner in the works regarding the Baptism massacre because the surprise element is lost and the Corleones' acting weak / weaker cover is blown

I might add, I can't see the Corleones asking the Molinari Family [or any other friends] for help
The Corleone pride, like they can't fight their own battles / war

What's our answer gonna be?

I don't want anything to happen to him [Michael] while his father's alive!

The timing of Vito's death was convenient to the script. But, I'm guessing that Barzini would have continued to wait until Vito died to move against Michael. I think he underestimated Michael, and believed that Vito was still in charge--the power behind the throne--and he didn't underestimate Vito. He may also have been mindful of Vito's threat at the Commission meeting that if anything happened to Michael, "that, I could never forgive." (Yes, that threat applied to interference with Michael's return to America, but Barzini might have feared Vito's revenge for any lethal move against Michael). I also infer that Barzini didn't have to rush to kill Michael because he seemed to be doing just fine, chipping away at Corleone territories just short of provoking retaliation. In his mind, he could afford to wait until Vito died, and "weak" Michael was deprived of Vito's council.

Sure thing Turnbull whilst “Vito's death was convenient to the script” Barzini can't afford “to wait until Vito died [not knowing when?!] to move against Michael” giving precious time to the Corleones to rebuild eg: Rocco's secret regime and get ready for battle
Gotta get Michael or Vito? That's the key for Barzini but Barzini was "chipping away at Corleone territories" small potatoes

It was pretty much common knowledge that -

Fish tank scene [private]

Moe Greene meeting [public]

The longer Barzini waited as Tattaglia said at the Commission meeting “as time goes by and his [Vito's] position becomes stronger....

Barzini and Tessio were slippin' and certainly underestimated Michael indeed - “weak” civilian Michael, killed Sollozzo and McCluskey single handed when “nobody has ever gunned down a New York police captain Never”!

As you always say [or similar] Trilogy theme – underestimating / overestimating Their Achilles heel

another fascinating question Why not get Vito?

People. The word is "counsel"

How to lure him out of the mall?

Evita, you know you surprise me -- if anything in this life is certain -- if history has taught us anything -- it's that you can kill anybody

Underestimating / Overestimating Trilogy theme

If Tessio had succeeded

Whilst Carlo is not in the muscle-end of the family....

Smug Carlo could have run to Barzini gloating that the Corleones have no idea it was Carlo who helped Barzini, set up Sonny's murder
The Corleones are fleeing to Nevada and Carlo's gonna be Michael's right-hand man The inside man, for Barzini

Barzini might, he just might....buy Carlo-Tessio-Barzini deal / Barzini-Michael meeting

The only Don material Sicilian member of the family Don Carlo!

Barzini wanted only one thing from Carlo: Set up Sonny to be killed. He wouldn't need Carlo after that.

Carlo was smirking and thanked Papa, truly believing he has fooled the Corleones

Nothing like having a right-hand man spy, who Set up Sonny to be killed, feeding Barzini all the inside information

(At Connie's wedding):

TOM


Now your new son-in-law; give him something important?

VITO CORLEONE

Never. Give him a living, but never discuss the Family business with him.

Could you expand on your answer --

"Yeah, the family had a lotta buffiz,"

The "living" that Vito gave Carlo was a dinky-ass storefront betting parlor. Even when Carlo said, at the dinner table, that he could be more helpful, Sonny shut him right down ("We don't discuss business at the table"--this after telling Clemenza to take care of the freelance Harlem numbers dealers),

Carlo knew nothing of value to Barzini. Even if he'd run To Barzini after Michael told him he'd be his "right hand man" in Nevada, Barzini wouldn't have taken him seriously. And anyway, Barzini probably was planning to kill Michael before he moved to Nevada.

Mr Turnbull you may find this very amusing but I promise you, the members of this Board....do! as well Good one

Money for jam! for Barzini to find out what the Corleones' got under their fingernails, ya' know
Barzini might, he just might “have taken him [Carlo] seriously” believing the 'weak' Corleones were slippin' even further

Don Barzini after all, did think Michael would fall for the Tessio brokered Barzini-Michael meeting, the transparently ill-conceived charade

Trilogy theme
1. Underestimating / Overestimating
2. greed and lust for vengeance blind the perps to the obvious

Their Achilles heel Time and again

Underestimating / Overestimating

"Something in it for me"

Turnbull
We see in the Trilogy how greed and lust for vengeance blind the perps to the obvious
Extracts:

• Could Paulie seriously think he wouldn't be the prime suspect in setting up Vito?
• Did Carlo have any right to believe he could get away with setting up Sonny by beating up Connie for a second time?

Underestimating / Overestimating

Did anyone else notice that .......

The Last Woltz
I think one of the themes of the Trilogy (and GFII in particular) is people lying to themselves
They were all wrong and they were all doomed to suffer a violent death or the violent death of those closest to them

• Michael believes he can become legitimate while running the nation's top Mafia Family
• Kay tells herself that the Family will be legitimate within 5 years
• Roth thinks he can rule his empire forever
• And Fredo tells himself that he can take sides against the Family and somehow end up more powerful and respected

Lana
A few more, not quite in the same league! as yours though -

• Vito believes his no to Sollozzo drug deal and then sending Luca over to Tattaglias will find what they have under their fingernails
• Vito believes after the Baptism, Moe Greene, Carlo murders Michael can live a 'legitimate' life
• Woltz acts he is bigger than the Corleones and wakes up with his prized horse Khartoum's head
• Greene thinks he can slap a Corleone around, insult another Corleone and somehow keep the hotel
• Carlo thinks he can lure Sonny to his murder and somehow end up as Michael's right hand man in Nevada
• Turncoat Tessio believes he can set his Don up to be murdered and another Don will embrace him into their family

Kay thinks she can abort their unborn son and somehow he'd let her take the children from him

It is fleshed out in the book Tessio arranged the meeting over the phone

Hope this is the relevant emoji My first use of one!

• Connie thinks she can see her children on weekends, fly around the world with men who don't even care about her and use her like a whore! and Michael somehow would fund her junket on The Queen with her latest husband to be....

• Merle thinks his 'future' brother-in-law Michael would fund Merle's freeloading extravagant Lifestyle with his sister

It concerns me, too. Is it okay, Mike, if I stay? his passage on The Queen

Why kill Michael before he moved to Nevada. they are fleeing

Good question, Capri! And--miraculously--one that hasn't been asked before.
I think the answer is in this bit of dialog from the fishtank scene:
MICHAEL (seated on a chair)

After we make the move to Nevada -- you can break off from the Corleone Family and go

on your own. After we make the move to Nevada.

CLEMENZA

How long with that be?

MICHAEL

Six months.

TESSIO (to Don Vito)

Forgive me, Godfather, but with you gone -- me and Pete'll come under Barzini's thumb

sooner or later...

Sure. Vito, old, in declining health, didn't have long to live, Michael, in Nevada, would be preoccupied with building his "legitimate" businesses; and Tessio underestimated him, If Tess and Clem really did form their own "family" out of the Corleones, they'd either split. it in half, or fight each other for sole possession--either way weakening the entire enterprise. They'd be sitting ducks for Barzini.

I believe Barzini didn't want to move against Michael while Vito was alive because he still feared Vito's cunning and political influence--killing Michael would rally him and his still loyal legions. Barz might have won that war, but it was easier just to wait for Vito to die. With Vito gone, Barzini figured he had a green light to kill Michael. Why? Doing so, right after Vito's death, would deal a body blow to Tess and Clem, improving his negotiating position and inevitably causing one or both to come to terms with him, Barz may have been making plans to move in on Nevada gambling. The Corleones were the big power in gambling and already had a toehold in Vegas through their investment in Moe Greene's hotel. By eliminating Michael, he'd have a freer hand to move on Nevada gambling.

True Turnbull same as Michael killing all the other Family Heads

My two cents worth!
Tess and Clem already had their own separate operation
So I reckon, they would just rebrand as their own "family" and continue as before, independent but a la Michael/Clemenza/Tessio

I was under the impression, any Sonny's business was absorbed into their operation and there was no other business out of the Corleones for them to split it in half, or fight each other for sole possession

We'd discussed in Vito's vs Michael's caporegime thread Barzini can't afford “to wait until Vito died [not knowing when?!]
The longer Barzini waited as Tattaglia said at the Commission meeting “as time goes by and his [Vito's] position becomes stronger....

As regards Nevada gambling, I reckon it was Barzini who thought he already had a toehold in Vegas through Moe Greene's hotel with whom he'd already made a deal

Eh gosh -- imagine the nerve of the gigolo Also wanting a drink

I started a thread a long time ago that Tessio's treason was a stroke of good luck for Michael. He'd never have let them "form their own family"--there has never been a co-Donship for reasons I cited above. Also, he needed to hold onto New York as muscle to deter gangsters from threatening his Nevada interests; for monetary tribute paid to him; and synergy--NYC's high rollers as fodder for junkets to his legal Nevada casinos. Clemenza would have gone along with it, but not Tess.


That was Tattaglia's fear, not Barzini's. Vito successfully played weak after the Commission meeting, and never let on that he knew "It was Barzini all along."


That was Moe Greene's fantasy--"I tolk to Barzini. I can [emphasis added]make a deal with him and still keep my hotel." There's no evidence he made a deal with Barzini. I doubt he "tolked" to Barzini--he may have been bluffing Michael.

For all Barzini knew, Vito, could have been dying of the same five shots for twenty years!

My take, it is not quite “co-Donship”
Both Clemenza and Tessio upgrade, their own already separate caporegime to “their own "family" and continue separate as before but independent and a la Michael / Pentangeli

If Tessio had succeeded
Extracts:
Tattaglia was right!

Barzini wait for Vito to die fatal mistake He was sitting duck for Michael

Why wouldn't Tess have gone along with upgrade, to “their own "family"

Both Tess and Clem wanted to form their own family or families. But since there's no such thing as a co-Donship, they'd either have had to split up the "Olive Oil Busness" between them, or fought it out with only one survivor. Either scenario would have made Barzini stronger.

As we saw, Michael wanted to continue to ,NYC, and Clemenza went along with it. Tessio never would have. The fishtank scene showed that he had no confidence in Michael. That's why he betrayed Michael. Also, the novel tells us that Vito kept Tess on a long leash--unlike Clemenza, he didn't live at The Mall, and Vito liked it that some outside the family thought Tessio was an independent operator--the better to hide Vito's true strength. No way was Tess going to accept being under Michael's long-distance thumb from Neada.

I too reckon it is not quite “co-Donship”
They were already separate and independent of each other with their own separate territories
They would just continue the same but now as Don Clemenza and Don Tessio with their own separate Family


I reckon Tessio would have gone along with it Just go along, everything will be alright, Sally

While his lack of confidence in Michael only because Barzini's people chisel his territory and he did nothing about it, not up to the job, he still should have been a friend to Michael, and did as he said
No doubt Disloyalty no excuse irrespective that he had no confidence in Michael. Tessio's fatal mistake

1. Isn't the "Olive Oil Busness" just a front to launder their money?
2. Did Clemenza live at The Mall? I thought he lived away with his wife in their own house

Don't know Turnbull Moe Greene made his bones when Michael was going out with cheerleaders!

He knew what was going on here, having done his homework, some not so secret
1. First of all, you're all done.
2. The Corleone Family don't even have that kind of muscle anymore.
3. The Godfather's sick, right?
4. You're getting chased out of New York by Barzini and the other Families
5. You think you can come to my hotel and take over? --
6. I talked to Barzini -- I can make a deal with him, and still keep my hotel!

The head-strong, talking loud, saying stupid things Greene, may have been bluffing Michael but on the surface, he can make a deal with Barzini and still keep my hotel! -- not impossible.

Barzini thinking he was in the catbird seat, was talking to any one and everyone He talked to Carlo, Tessio, why not Greene?

I don't think so. Per the book, Genco had a house on the Mall.

Thank you Pete So Mall is only for the consiglieres Genco and later Tom not the caporegimes!

Clemenza's wife telling Clemenza “Don't forget the cannoli”! as Paulie was driving off from Clemenza's house, to his own murder

I, of course will never break omertà! nor betray my Don!!

Sure thing “Tessio's treason” is untenable under any circumstances and there is no excuse whatsoever for what Tessio did – setting his Don up to be murdered

Vito's Rise and Rise

Tessio was stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place, seemingly -

• getting no help nor support from the Corleones
• Michael jetting off to Nevada
• abandoning Tessio [and Clemenza] with nothing to build on

Fish tank sceneWas the above Vito's empty promise carrot same as Roth's Donship to Fredo?

Don Clemenza, Don Tessio, separate and independent of each other and a la Michael / Pentangeli for monetary tribute and muscle

Besides it makes sense to me! I believe, Michael would have retained control of the "Olive Oil Business" the front to launder his nefarious stuff [if any!] which both Clemenza and Tessio need to launder their criminal proceeds It could work because they need each other

I, of course will never break omertà! nor betray my Don!! Me too

Did Sonny and Michael chide! non-Sicilian Tom that he was not a wartime consiglieri….

Tom may not be a Corleone by blood or name but Tom was indeed among others - callous, cunning, ruthless, not averse to murder etc. – when required just as much Mafia as the Corleones themselves

• Geary set up - Tom to Geary:

and Pentangeli suicide