Vito's Rise and Rise

Lana's post in Breaking the peace? thread
Down but not out - It's a long way to the top! if you wanna rock 'n' roll [Ref: AC/DC Australian Rock band] - in crime business

Immigrant orphan rising to be the top Mafia Don and staying there against all odds

Godfather yes Real life no

The combined forces and muscle of the other Families – Barzini, Tattaglia, Stracci, Cuneo – could hardly make a dent on Vito's rein let alone....You believed that story You believed that

and political/police contacts monopoly

They couldn't cajole anyone away in spite of, You see -- all these people are business men, their loyalty is based on money

Except the New York Police Captain!

Was the car bomb in Sicily before the Peace meeting, revenge for Michael's murder of Sollozzo without whom Barzini and the others would have lost their link / middleman to the drugs supply

It is fleshed out in the book if he had died, everyone even Vito would have thought the car bomb was for Don Tommasino and Michael was an unintended casualty

Michael's car

Good point Can't remember why they thought that

Vito and Carmela was a great team Granted times were different and Carmela was a traditional wife of that time

I do believe if not for Carmela, Vito's Rise and Rise may not have been perhaps as smooth or not to this extent, keeping in mind Vito became a crime boss after their marriage

We hardly see Vito being a family man It seems Vito took care of the crime family and Carmela the blood family without any conflicts

Carmela was culpable too Carmela knew what her husband’s business was knew her rich, privileged life was funded by tainted money from other people's murder, misery and blood but happily enjoyed the spoils of the blood money seemingly no qualms

• Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli by Mark Seal

It seems Puzo based Vito on his mother [page 16] a remarkable woman indeed

I recently got the book from the Library only up to 150 / 388 pages though as I find it is not one of those unputdownable! books for me not dissimilar to Godfather 3
It was an offer I could refuse! I find it disappointing so far, seemingly little to nothing really new even the 8 pages of photographs not a lot, I had not seen before

What remains unchanged, half a century on, is all the intense debates and disputes still raging on! - Leading up to, Making of the Godfather and the Movies itself like us!

Interested to hear of any members' review who may have read the book Thanks

Bet you glad you did not buy book

No doubt lucrative market as long as there is Godfather hungry, die-hard fans like us

Behind every great man there is a greater woman Duh! No doubt Carmela was culpable too

• Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli by Mark Seal

Say what?! Just one of the many glowing reviews on the back cover of the book

Carter needs to visit J Geoff's Forum then he will learn something new! and have a gloriously Homeric, entertaining and magical experience

What am I missing?! I for one had learnt little to nothing really new, in any of the 150 pages I had read so far....

No reviews posted So none of us are reading this yet another Epic! We knew better

• Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli by Mark Seal

I found on Page 304 - Luca Brasi murder
“It means Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes” Richard Castellano as Clemenza, says when the late enforcer's bulletproof vest is delivered to Sonny Corleone

I seem to remember there were debates as to who - Clemenza or Tessio – said this line According to this book it was Clemenza

Vito's modus operandi and shrewd strategy got him to be the top Mafia Don

among others -

• Vito having two separate Capo regime Clemenza and Tessio which on the surface looked like his muscle was half strength than it really was
• The other Dons mistakenly believing Vito was under muscled compared to them
• Vito had the foresight to cultivate political / Police contacts [though Sollozzo had the New York Police Captain in his pocket!]

How come the other Dons couldn't even wet their beak!

Yes, there have been debates, but Geoff's transcript says it was Clemenza.

Vito's great strength was focus: He focused on alliances with politicians who could protect him, and on two rackets--gambling and unions--that were highly profitable and were easy for his politicians to go along with. Gambling was a "harmless vice," and unions provided (at Vito's direction) money and other support for politicians' election campaigns. That focus worked so well that Vito apparently monopolized all the influential politicians and judges in NYC, according to Barzini at the Commission meeting.

I reckon what contributed to Vito's downfall was his sentimental weakness for his children and his complacency

I've posted earlier that Sol would have tried to kill Vito even if Sonny had kept his mouth shut, Vito's "no" put Sol's back against the wall--he either would have had to return to Sicily empty-handed, or else try to kill Vito and negotiate with a greatly weakened Corleone Family. Vito's big slip was to send Luca to the Tattaglias with the ridiculous story that Luca was "not too happy with our family"

Sonny bad Don but still Boss
Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well
Michael never wanted this for you
Connie spousal abuse

It's a smart move We always smarter

Prostitution – Tattaglia is a pimp
Drugs – dirty business

Vito's rackets -

• Gambling - the poor punters losing money they could ill-afford to, especially the odds stacked against them – No money to put food on the table for their family
• Unions – loan sharks? strong arm tactics including extortion

Tom to Woltz
I ain't no band leader! Yeah, I heard that story....

Vito's Rise and Rise - focus: his “alliances with politicians who could protect him”
You are right “--gambling and unions--that were “highly profitable and were easy for his politicians to go along with” and 'in their mind' "harmless vice,"

Narcotics money discussion with Vito and Sonny before the Sollozzo meeting

Sure thing Turnbull Sollozzo cannot allow another man to hold him back Vito's "no” and Vito is a dead man

Sollozzo's slip ups, among others -

• Sollozzo was smug he had the backing of Barzini and all the other families unbeknown to the Corleones
• mistakenly believing Vito's hothead son Sonny, the other two kids, Tessio and fat Clemenza, would still do business with Sollozzo even after Sollozzo tried to kill Vito - twice
• thinking because Sonny was hot for Sollozzo's deal, he could get Sonny on board not realising Sonny's very gaffe, tied Sonny's hands
• underestimating civilian Michael
• feeling invulnerable being guarded by the New York Police Captain

Vito was slippin' big time Ten years ago could Sollozzo have gotten to him?! Let alone....sending Luca to the Tattaglias with the ridiculous story that Luca was "not too happy with our family"

Vito not upping his security and letting Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well-- doubling up as his driver and bodyguard


If only he had focused half as much on his blood family

Vito's Rise and Rise in crime family Fall and Fall in blood family

He didn't factor in a traitor within the blood family

How do you solve a problem like Fredo?

Poor Fredo copped it from everyone - Vito, Carmela, Sonny, Michael, Greene, Deanna

Fredo was an unusual problem indeed and no real viable solution even face saving - Don or ?

Fredo was not Don material but then again neither was Sonny as bad a Don as Sonny was, Sonny interestingly still would have been Don if he was not killed

Wonder whether there are any older brother stepped over situation and if so how it panned out, in real life? Thanks

There is Michael Franzese similar to Michael Corleone, college dropout turned gangster but his life was colorful not legitimate!

I don't think there was any older brother stepped over situation in real life

let him banging cocktail waitresses two at a time!

You are not wrong! Capri the best option for Fredo, in hind sight, make a deal with Greene and let Fredo continue banging cocktail waitresses two at a time!

Whilst Vito could have guided, mentored, nurtured and embraced Fredo, Fredo still would have been a bad Don not dissimilar to Sonny for different reasons, nothing but the Donship would have sufficed for Fredo as we saw during Fredo's boathouse outburst

Perhaps some sort of consigliere role - an elder statesman - under the watchful eye of Tom....

This might, just might work Something important not just a living

a man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man – Vito take note!

Vito not foreseeing the problems that arose in giving “I could be doing a lot more for the Family” Carlo, a living, not something important

Vito had such contempt for Carlo yet let Carlo marry his only daughter?
Then treat Carlo like an outcast “Give him a living but never discuss the Family business with him”

Vito doing nothing when disgruntled Carlo was beating up Connie even when Connie was pregnant
Vito was instrumental in Sonny getting killed, rushing to Connie's aid due to Vito's inaction

What could Vito have done to steer his children away from a life of crime, for them to try and live as normal lives as possible instead of always having to kill or be killed

He could have handed over the business to Clemenza and Tessio with tribute kicked up to him
Still wealth beyond, with all the money laundered through Genco Olive Oil and stashed away, in addition to the tribute pouring in

Just my opinion,but as we know,Tessio is an ambitious snake.
So what's to stop Clemenza and Tessio ,after being given control of the Corleone Business from telling Vito "what tribute?"
Without his crew,which would now belong to 2 outsiders,Vito has no choice but to shut up and take it,especially since his kids have been steered away from the rackets.
He goes full time in the olive oil business and his legitimate investments for income.
Then a couple years goes by,and Tessio whacks his "good friend" Clemenza to gain sole control of the whole shebang.

True Lou but Tessio wouldn't dare try anything with Luca around

Well, Vito needs him He helps him get in and out of the car. Carry his briefcase

My take, for what it is worth!
Tessio was protecting his territories rather than being "an ambitious snake"

Tessio should have had more faith in his Don/s and trusted their judgement

I believe, Tessio only became a "snake" because Tessio felt Michael would be no good as Don even though Michael kept reassuring including -
always smarter! Tessio jumped what he thought was the Corleones' sinking ship

a la Michael / Pentangeli It could work....

• There is much we can learn from the Great man, Mr Roth [apart from the Pentangeli set up!]

"Something in it for me"
Sure thing Evita and Turnbull, getting rid of Michael was indeed Roth's overarching goal
However “and to blame it on Pentangeli” was Roth's Achilles heel


I believe Roth was not a greedy man but of course if the Corleones' business fell into Roth's lap, Roth will take it Bonus!

At Anthony's partyand the reason, nobody tried to machine gun Roth's bedroom!

Again,just speculation on my part,but once Clem and Tess decided to double cross Vito, Luca would have been the first to go.
They were both street smart and ruthless enough to understand that you always take out the strongest,most loyal bodyguard before you make a move on a Boss.

Valid point Lou if Luca is taken out, you are right, they're in a lot of trouble, believe you. A lot of trouble.

no time for family too busy with business

Whilst doing a Search for something, I stumbled across the below thread and Turnbull's post of 27 July 2006
Looks like nothing much has changed!

could some please like give me a list of characters to real life mobsters
No wonder Tessio was not impressed!

Interesting So only the Corleones had their son as father’s successor

I wonder where Puzo got this idea of father-son successor if "No son ever succeeded his father as Don" [Godfather] "much less surpassed his father" [Godfather Part 2 and perhaps 3] in real Life

I don't think it's a mafia novel at heart. With Stracci and Cuneo placed away from New York City and minimized to almost nothing, what you have are three warring kingdoms set against a mafia backdrop.

I agree that GF Trilogy and the novel are not about the Mafia per se. I put it a bit differently: GF is a saga about a family, with the Mafia as a defining milieu. To make an analogy: "Gone With the Wind" isn't a Civil War movie and novel per se, it's a saga about a family with the Civil War as a defining milieu.

according to Wikipedia
The Godfather is a crime novel by American author Mario Puzo. Originally published in 1969 by G. P. Putnam's Sons, the novel details the story of a fictional Mafia family in New York City (and Long Island), headed by Vito Corleone, the Godfather. The novel covers the years 1945 to 1955 and includes the back story of Vito Corleone from early childhood to adulthood.

The first in a series of novels, The Godfather is noteworthy for introducing Italian words like consigliere, caporegime, Cosa Nostra, and omertà to an English-speaking audience. It inspired a 1972 film of the same name. Two film sequels, including new contributions by Puzo himself, were made in 1974 and 1990.

The Corleone family, one of the Five Families of the New York Mafia, fights the other four families in a brutal war in the years after World War II.

Fredo's Life and Treatment
Exactly Lou Fredo was dismissed as amounting to nothing, all his life, pretty much by everyone indeed
"Fredo had nothing from the get-go" because poor Fredo was never given the chance Boy, oh, Boy didn't Fredo show us all?!

• What did Vito do, to guide, mentor, nurture and embrace his different sons?

Vito's fatherly views! of his sons – Thanks! Pop

Fish tank scene:

Garden scene:

When Michael survived and came back, he could have had a "legitimate future" but Vito dragged him into the criminal business

Vito could have retired, and handed over the reins of the Family then, cut their losses and walked away from Mafia, leaving Clemenza and Tessio in charge but he didn't because he wanted, needed the Corleone family reputation, standing, history etc. to be restored, leaving a murderous legacy for Michael even if it meant dragging his never wanted this for you son as Mob Boss

Fredo's Life and Treatment
Ref: Turnbull, Don Cardi, Lou_Para and Evita's 21 August 2022 posts Page 2

• If Michael had been killed in the car bomb in Sicily

Spot on! no matter what, settle all Family business

Whilst Vito would have been "weakened by the shooting and devastated by the loss of two sons" the Corleones' muscle even without Luca Brasi, still formidable with Clemenza and Tessio's crew full strength

My take, for what it is worth!
Vito retains control of the "Olive Oil Business" drinking wine and growing tomatoes
Don Clemenza and Don Tessio kick up monetary tribute

Whilst nothing happens to Carlo as long as Vito's alive because nice guy! Vito won't make his daughter a widow [leave his dirty work for others like he did for Michael to make his sister a widow] Carlo has to answer for Sonny

I think that it's a premise of both the book and at least the first movie that the sons' qualities are inborn. Michael is not just rational - he's representative of the rational man. He's both guided and bound by his intellect. Likewise, Sonny does his emotional things because he's emotional by nature.

I'll submit that Fredo represents the physical man in the novel. Feed him, sex him, and he's happy. Pointedly, he actually does pretty well for himself in the novel, as he's alive at the end and has a "legitimate" job. Coppola changes that Freddy into the first movie's Fredo, and endows him with his father's "sweet nature." Having assigned Fredo that role, Coppola seems to apply the rule of "nice guys finish last" to him, and just knocks him around for three hours.

True Pete Feed him, sex him, just don't step over for his kid brother and he's happy.

Would beaten and weakened Vito still retain his police/political contacts?
You see -- all these people are business men, their loyalty is based on that

If Michael had been killed in the car bomb, would Barzini still chisel Corleone territories?

Tess and Clem hate that goddamn Barzini! can't see them operating under Barzini's thumb
He also would have been suspicious it was a plot by Vito (a la Luca/Tattaglia) to suss out Barz's intentions


Don't know Lou He left the legitimacy burden for Michael
I work my whole life, I don't apologize, to take care of my family. And I refused -- to be a fool -- dancing on the string, held by all those -- bigshots. I don't apologize -- that's my life --

Murderous Vito "sweet nature." Murdering his brother Fredo "nice guy

One of the reasons that Vito accumulated great police and political power was that they regarded gambling as a "harmless vice," which made it easy for them to accept bribes to look the other way. Drugs, on the other hand, was "a dirty business,"
Vito also had the unions--a great source of votes and big contributions for politicians. As long as he tetained both rackets, he'd have his cops and politicians eating out of his hand.

Good point they regarded gambling as a "harmless vice,"
Wouldn't all that change when he agreed to provide political protection for "a dirty business,"

Why did Barzini try to kill Michael in Sicily? The killing wouldn't go unavenged

That's why Vito said no to Sol initially- that his "friends in politics wouldn't be friendly very long if they knew my business was drugs." The novel provides more detail: Sol said at the meeting that he'd use operatives with clean records "so it will be logical for judges to give light sentences." And, after the Commission meeting, Vito told Tom that if the families used "real snowbirds" (meaning guys with drugs arrests) "we'll throw up our hands and say there's nothing we can do" (or some words to that effect). IMO, both Sol and Vito were deluding themselves about drug operatives with "clean records" --greed trumps restraint and common sense every time.




Perhaps he tried to have Michael killed to prevent Michael from eventually avenging Sonny's murder. Then you might ask, why did Barzini agree not to interfere with Michael's return to the US? Because he and the other Dons were greedy for the drugs profits Vito's political protection would open up. They deluded themselves into believing that Michael--who had already shown his stuff by killing Sol and Mac--wouldn't be a threat to them. Greed trumps caution every time.

After getting what they wanted all along, why chisel Corleone territories?

Barzini, Tattaglia, Cuneo, Stracci, Greene killing did go unavenged

The agreement that Barzini and the other Dons made at the Commission meeting was limited: Vito agreed to provide political protection for drug trafficking in the East, Barzini and the other Dons agreed not to interfere with Michael's safe return to the US. Nothing else was covered. Why wouldn't Barzini chisel Corleone Territory, especially since Michael and Vito were feigning weakness? If they didn't like it, they could fight back.

Right again! Turnbull The Underestimating, Overestimating, Delusions, Greed trumping restraint, common sense and caution....

My only debating point - if I have not misunderstood - it didn't seem Vito was greedy for the narcotics money

It seems to me Vito was restrained and exercised common sense and said no to Sollozzo initially because among others -

• Vito may have felt he didn't need "a dirty business," money - too much hassle
• concern of his "friends in politics wouldn't be friendly very long if they knew my business was drugs."

Vito, later, backed into a corner, having to bring Michael back to US safely was forced to 'barter' and reverse his original no, provided his “police/political protection” for the drugs trade

Movie - after the Commission meeting

Barzini probably thought, they could take Michael out, down the track, in the Corleones 'weakened' state, once the drug operation was up and running

No, he certainly wasn't greedy for drugs money,. What I meant to say was that Vito was deluding himself if he thought that the other Dons would assure that they'd use operatives without arrest records---and that he'd be able to refuse to help a "snowbird" get off with a light sentence.

I reckon the other factor to consider is complacency which resulted in these people slippin'

Vito was sitting pretty having made loads of money, with influence and power as Top Don
I agree he didn't need the hassle of "a dirty business," money

The slippin' Vito failed to see, Tattaglia and Sollozzo still climbing up the pecking order ladder, hungry for money and power, wouldn't just walk away from millions, $10M estimated, in just the first year alone

He suspected there was more to what Sollozzo was telling him, yet never occurred to him the possibility of a hit
Ten years ago could they have gotten to him?