Fredo's Life and Treatment

Fredo was treated poorly, throughout by everyone

What could have been done to make him a worthy Corleone

With Vito's connections I'm sure he could have set Fredo up in a legit business or two, union,trucking company,etc. Fredo wouldn't need much in the way of brains,just show up and get a check, and steer some business to the Family now and then. I think that Vito's (and to lesser degree Sonny's) biggest sin was in not grooming Fredo for a better position, Sonny could have mentored his younger brother, and even Tom could have helped Fredo in gaining a more lucrative and less volatile life.

In the book Fredo becomes more-or-less legitimate, focusing on the hotel side of Moe's operation. It seems reasonable to assume at the end of the novel that Fredo will run the five or so Corleone hotels, and that he'll end up a respectable part of the Las Vegas power structure. The first movie drifts away from that, but Fredo in the first film is still pretty dissonant with the sleazy gangster we see in GF2.

It's been awhile since I read the book How did Fredo react to being stepped over for Donship by his kid brother? Thanks Pete

Also "Fredo will run the five or so Corleone hotels" but under Boss Michael though

Fredo to Michael: in Havana

Papa dismissing Fredo “And Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well --”

Poor Fredo had no chance Nobody...no no no Corleone family nobody bothered Fredo's all alone
Sure thing Lou their "biggest [own family] sin was in not grooming Fredo for a better position" indeed even if just face saving

"biggest [own family] sin also spousal abuse
Fontane treated better than Fredo

Fredo v. Michael isn't really an issue in the book. "Freddy" seems contented in Vegas, running the hotel side of Moe's operation and chasing cocktail waitresses. There is the "don't take sides" confrontation, but that's more that Freddy is identifying with Moe than with Freddy asserting some kind of authority among the Corleones.



Well, sure, that's where the money's coming from. Same as the people who actually worked for the olive oil company.

He was given an opportunity but he was chasing cocktail waitresses instead of learning the casino business
Fredo was drunk at Connie's wedding

Fredo needed minder to make him a worthy Corleone
Too much drinking Too much womanizing instead of learning the business like Michael did from Vito

Many thanks Pete I only have an old paperback! somewhere....Fair enough

Godfather II - Therein lies the issue?
Fredo put up with whatever was dished out by his Father Vito, older Brother Sonny and being straightened out / slapped around in public by "we're good friends, right Moe" but couldn't handle the kid brother, Michael being the Boss because it should have been Fredo

Fredo is not going to be content "running the hotel side of [Michael's] operation" and Fredo's good friend Moe murdered and of course there will be no more cocktail waitresses! either

Fredo to Michael: during his boathouse outburst -
If my memory serves me right, the book ends with all living happily for a hundred years! and apart from Vito's early years Godfather II was brand new material So what you say makes sense

This maybe of interest
Moe Greene meeting question

They knew being straightened out / slapped around in public but do nothing about it
still had a week before shooting starts but Tom left same night to "settle this business for Johnny."

Freddy not contented him not being the Boss

I reckon their move was to get rid of the useless and big liability Fredo, pack him off to Vegas away from them and it becoming the basis of their future legal gambling was a lucky by-product

The Corleones were “pretending that they were "weak" and ready to be knocked over” and continued their strategy by doing nothing when Fredo was being straightened out / slapped around in public by Greene and It worked!

As Greene [and everyone] believed -

At Carlo and Connie's wedding -
How so?

He was a good godson because he showed the family respect by coming to the wedding. And by asking for Vito's help.

first words, whispered into Vito's ear were, he wants to talk to him Then whines and cries Woltz won't give him the part

Would Fontane have come “all the way from California“ to the wedding if he wasn't “in trouble again” and needed Vito to do a bandleader on Woltz?

In the novel, Tom says, "He's probably in trouble again and needs your help." To which Vito replies: "And who should he turn to, if not his godfather?"

And who should Fredo turn to, if not his own father?" And who should help Fredo if not his own father?"

He has a sentimental weakness for all his children and spoils them except Fredo He was left rudderless

This maybe of interest
Vito and Fredo

My answer gonna be No

So what could be the face saving something in it for Fredo that wouldn't cause any resentment of his stepped over grievance

forward-thinking / planning that does not cause any family turmoil

For starters treat Fredo as equal and don't!
Whilst it is a delicate balancing act at least not exclude Fredo eg: The Godfather II - deleted scene
Sonny's daughter Francesca and fiancé Gardener Shaw
Sadly, it showed how Fredo was not part of Family matters nor Family business nor....And Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well --

Perhaps let Fredo sit in, at meetings Fredo knows to keep his mouth shut! unlike Sonny
Make Fredo feel important – even if as a figurehead....

Deanna big mistake

Poor Fredo gets shot down every time
1. Vegas welcoming party
2. getting Michael to see Pentangeli
3. ignored when he came back to Vito's room
4. excluded from Family matters and Family business

Gardener family give their blessing for marrying Gangster daughter

They haven't found poor Fredo in a barrel... yet...

Scuba divers who spent a year cleaning up Lake Tahoe’s entire 72-mile (115-kilometer) shoreline have come away with what they hope will prove much more valuable...

https://apnews.com/article/science-lakes-california-nevada-7e74aa67d25e37b272a3781e1bdc1499

It was as if he never went fishing with Neri

I wish the GF movie would have fleshed out why Neri was so loyal to Michael...

What I don't get is how Michael and somewhat the great Don himself - Vito basically left Fredo behind and almost letting him know that he is worthless... Maybe not Vito but certainly Michael did by having him be some personal driver. At least Mike revealed to him in II who his enemy was.

Why didn't Vito set him up with a more important role? Maybe let him take part in the legitimate business in the olive oil company after Genco passed and even have him eventually fully incharge of the egit businesses. We don't even get to know enough about him in the first film to label him a moron as most seem to. Just because you're not cut out for the life and happen to drop a handgun on the ground on the first day driving the Don after work as bullets quite nearly striking yourself doesn't make you an idiot lol. Fredo was young still and can't have been a hopeless case.

Vito and Michael, leaders of the most powerful crime organisation but couldn't figure out or bother enough with the consequences to follow.

Michael always taken care of him

True Gudfadern Vito basically left Fredo behind and almost letting him know that he is worthless...having him be some personal driver.
1. Don for Sonny
2. Senator, Governor for Michael
3. And Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well --

In fairness, Fredo was given an opportunity in the legitimate casino business by Sonny and later Michael but he was banging cocktail waitresses two at a time! instead of learning the business

He may have been perceived as good-hearted, weak and stupid until his kid brother surpassed him

I too reckon he was not a moron nor idiot and no doubt dangerous and deadly because of his jealousy and resentment of his kid brother, Don Michael and I reckon knew he was setting him up to be murdered for the Donship

The Manager said “Freddie, good to see ya” like he hadn't seen Fredo for awhile when Fredo came over after the Geary set up

Was Fredo continuing his old tricks! leaving the Manager to run the casinos / hotels

Our ongoing re-vamp, re-visit 'revolving door'! [what's new?!] takes

I now believe any role how important, nothing but the Donship would have sufficed for Fredo as we saw during Fredo's boathouse outburst
Vito and Michael [who did?] didn't anticipate the consequences even after Fredo taking sides against the Family in Vegas with Greene
However in fairness, Fredo setting his own blood kid brother Michael up to be murdered for the Donship – nobody could have seen that coming indeed

Tom and Fredo

I made a slight error in my post about Michael letting Fredo be a personal driver - they both did, but you figured it out either way Evita. Fredo started out driving his father around, years later on still driving people around picking people up from the airport under his kid brother.

No Vito and Michael wouldn't have anticipated that Fredo one day were to have Michael set up to be killed, but certainly should have realized that Freddy would grow recentful, whether or not it would have a significance to the future of the family.
But yes Lana, that Donship probably was the only trophy that would have sufficed to Fredo.

Vito letting Fredo be a personal driver - this one time when Paulie sick

It occurred to me....Fredo “identifying” and siding with Greene because Greene said he did the Corleones a favour and took Fredo in when the Corleones were having a bad time

After all that Greene had done for the family and Fredo, Michael is now pushing Fredo's good friend Greene out

No wonder Fredo was so upset

a man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man – Vito take note!

Vegas and forgotten

If Michael had been killed in the car bomb, what would have happened to the Corleone son as their father’s successor

Fredo gets his chance! to show everyone that

Conundrum but as long as Corleone blood son, Sonny was to have been Don So I reckon same with Fredo

He was always the nice guy, left all the dilemma for Michael
1. stepping over Fredo
2. Baptism murders
3. making his daughter a widow
4. legitimacy burden

With Michael and Sonny both dead,and assuming that Don Corleone is wanting to retire,and hand over the reins of the Family, then Vito's options are limited.
No way,no how is Fredo going to be in charge,even as a token "front Boss".

That leaves Clemenza, Tessio, Neri,and Rocco.

Hagen, being German-Irish is totally out of the picture,but the smart move would be to keep him as the Corleone lawyer/advisor.

Neither Rocco or Neri have the experience,history with the Family,or enough respect from the other Families to be Boss,so that leaves Clem and Tess.

IMHO,Tessio has the experience,loyalty,and proven track record,as well as the ruthless streak that it would take to run things.

So Fredo still winds up getting stepped over,and maybe would have set Tess up,like he did Mike.

No matter the outcome,the thing to remember is that Barzini will be the biggest threat to the Corleone's so all decisions by Vito will be made with that in mind.

So here's my line up:

Tessio- Acting Boss until Vito's retirement or death,then Official Boss
Clemenza- Underboss
Rocco- Capo
Neri- Capo
Fredo- Capo,but limited to rackets and soldiers given to him by Vito
Hagen- legal advisor / couuselor.

Clem also has the experience,loyalty,and proven track record,as well as the ruthless streak that it would take to run things
can't see him underboss to Tess

Sonny still bad Don maybe Fredo token "front Boss" under Vito and Tom

I agree that Clem would also be a good fit as Boss. Both him and Tess go back to the beginning with Vito,and of course,Clem got Vito involved in his first illegal activity (the rug caper).
As far as Underboss, I actually don't think that either one of them would be content in that position under the other one,so there may be some interesting dynamics involved.
On the Fredo matter,I still have to believe that he would be the worst pick,even if it was only as a "front Boss".

Good scenarios Lou I agree, I also can't see him Underboss to Tess or vice versa

I reckon he wouldn't retire from a weak and defeated position as former Top Don

No doubt he would be the worst pick, even if it was only as a "front Boss" however knowing Santino was a bad Don, he still would have become The Don if he hadn't been killed Go figure!

We'd been debating some interesting dynamics, in Vito's vs Michael's caporegime thread, Clem and Tess' roles if there was no direct Corleone involvement

I think the big difference between Sonny and Fredo as far as being Don,is that Sonny turned out to be a bad pick in hindsight because of his temper and the emotionally driven decisions he made after taking the reins, but before that,he had the makings to be successful,and was a good choice.
Fredo,on the other hand,was already out of the running,because he was never seen as anything but weak and stupid.
Sonny had the potential to run the Fanily right,whereas Fredo had nothing from the get-go.

My take as well Evita “he [Vito] wouldn't retire from a weak and defeated position as former Top Don”
Note: Lou's was an assumption
I believe, it would have been of utmost importance - Vito's [Corleones] need, pride to re-establish the Corleones glory, standing, reputation etc. and to make the Corleones top Mafia family again

Fredo in charge, even as a token "front Boss" under the watchful eye of Tom and Vito
It could work....Fredo knows to keep his mouth shut! unlike Sonny

there's not gonna be no trouble from Fredo as long as Vito is alive Then send Fredo fishing with Neri!

Ironically I believe, Fredo would have had no problem as “Capo,but limited to rackets and soldiers" or taking care of some Mickey Mouse night club somewhere!

It was the stepped over for his kid brother that got Fredo mad and all fired up....

Had Michael been killed in Sicily, Vito, weakened by the shooting and devastated by the loss of two sons, still would have had Tess and Clem's loyalties, as well as their formidable regimes. He also would have retained his even more formidable police/political contacts, which the other families needed:
--He would have called the Commission meeting to halt the war.
--He would have agreed to provide political protection for drug trafficking in the East.
--In return, he would have asked for a formal peace, and a return to the pre-war status quo, meaning that he had gambling and unions, Tattaglia had nightclubs and brothels, etc.
--The other Dons would have agreed, since they were getting what they wanted all along. They wouldn't have needed to move against Vito immediately because it'd just rekindle a costly war that they had already won..

I think the other Dons had underestimated Michael as a possible existential threat to them as Don-in-training, which is why they agreed not to interfere with his return to the US. . They would think even less of Fredo. To them, Vito was a beaten man, but they needed his police/political protection. That would give Vito time to think, to plan, to remain the head of the family for several years, as we saw.. He might have attempted to tutor Fredo, in the hope that Fredo would rise to the occasion. More likely, he wouldn't want to expose Fredo to the same dangers that had cost Sonny and Michael their lives. As he approached his death, and with Barzini chiseling Corleone territories, I believe he would have counseled Tess and Clem to make their peace with Barzini and go with him, since he would be gone and Fredo couldn't lead them. They might not go for it, but that would be their problem.
.

Turnbull, I agree with all that you say about what would have taken place if Michael had been killed in Italy. But I also believe that some how, in some way, Don Vito would have avenged the killing of Michael and that both Barzini & Tattaglia would have been taken out.

DC, how great to see you again!

At that stage of the game,Vito knew he wasn't going to be around long,and Fredo was useless as far as keeping the Family active.
I agree with Turnbull that the best move was to let Clem and Tess go,either under Barzini or,on, a smaller scale,on their own.
At this point,Vito taking out Barz and Tatt would only serve to kindle a major war that the Corleones could never win,plus it would disrupt Vito's plans to gradually get out of the crime "business" and retire peacefully.
Vito had neither the incentive or firepower to kick the sleeping bears.

He may have had the firepower of Tess and Clem's loyalties, as well as their formidable regimes but I reckon probably not the stomach, weakened by the shooting and devastated by the loss of two sons

However if Barz and Tatt are taken out, I reckon they could win because what can small potatoes Cuneo and Stracci do?

Tess and Clem hate that goddamn Barzini! can't see them operating under Barzini's thumb
He also would have been suspicious it was a plot by Vito (a la Luca/Tattaglia) to suss out Barz's intentions

Again as we debated, in Vito's vs Michael's caporegime thread, They were already separate and independent of each other with their own separate territories and now become Don Clemenza and Don Tessio with their own separate Family

And the Corleone name lives on

I was playing comedy! with “so sweet and helpless” Fredo....

Vito's Rise and Rise
Maybe of interest

Fredo moments! in Havana

• Fredo and the Hotel porter

Fredo wrestling! the briefcase [That two million -- ] from the hotel porter

• $2 million

Fredo says out loud what was in the briefcase.... then whoop!

• Fredo's first lie

• Fredo's superman excitement

Fredo so taken up with Superman's....! [Cazale's superb acting – Fredo's face wow!]

ominous sign like the oranges, squeaking train and now the sirens, foreshadowing their deaths

John Cazale died in 1978 aged only 42 of cancer
I think he was in only five films all of which were acclaimed and won several awards though sadly he was not personally nominated, in spite of his stellar performances

Michael pressed his palm, dragged it down the misted glass then his thumb and index finger over his eyebrows, pained at having to have this distressing conversation

He was listening intently looking for ways out that Roth misled him -- and he didn't know they were planing to kill him until something in it for me -- on my own.

Then grief as the full realization of Fredo's betrayal hits him and the subtle nod at the stepped over! tirade and why he did what he did

Cazale has a unique distinction in the history of Motion Pictures.
Every movie he appeared in was nominated for the Academy Award for Best Picture.
They were :The Godfather, The Conversation, The Godfather Part II, Dog Day Afternoon, and The Deer Hunter,
He also lived with Meryl Streep for the last two years of his life until his death from lung cancer.
She was 27,and he was 41 when they met.
He was well respected by his peers,and in fact,when he was initially turned down for the Deer Hunter due to being uninsurable because of his health,DeNiro assumed the financial responsibility,because he wanted Cazale to be in it.

Sure thing Lou Cazale was superb indeed

I remember reading somewhere that Coppola wrote a bigger part for Cazale in the second Godfather after seeing Cazale's superb performance in the first in spite of not a lot of screen time

The Godfather at 50
The New York Times by Dave Itzkoff March 9, 2022

• Al Pacino on ‘The Godfather’: ‘It’s Taken Me a Lifetime to Accept It and Move On’

Who from the movie doesn’t get enough credit for their contribution?

• Michael enlisting in the Marines

The [first time] Fredo took sides against the family

Ola turning up at the Superman club "We never met" for Michael's benefit but making it awkward and uncomfortable for Fredo

True even after Pop had to pull a lot of strings to get him a deferment. Makes it five times Fredo took sides against the family
1. Moe Greene
2. Tahoe shooting
3. Senate hearing
4. withholding information though not vital

Sonny nearly broke his hand. Fredo rubbing it, trying to make sure it was not broken and then sends him off to get him a drink -- go on.

No wonder he was shouting that he was not dumb, smart and I want respect!

Cazale did Fredo like Pacino did Michael though sadly he was not personally nominated, in spite of his stellar performances no doubt doesn’t get enough credit

I couldn't understand why Ola turned up at the Superman club after assuring Fredo Your brother's not going to find out we talked.

The theme of homosexuality is obvious in even the most casual viewing of the film. Fredo's flamboyant clothing in Las Vegas. Fredo allows Moe to slap him. Could Don C. really be "doing the deed" with Mrs. C.? What a chore. I also have suspicions about Michael. Sonny seemed fine. So where could Fredo go in a world of more convincingly heterosexual men. Today it may not have been such an issue.

I think Fredo's sense of style reflected what a gavone he was,more than anything else. He probably thought that he was dressing in a style befitting a gangster of his (imagined) stature.
He dressed like a retiree in Miami trying to look young and "hip"
Also,the reason that Moe slapped him was for "bangin' cocktail waitresses 2 at a time".