Vito's Grand plans

Lana's post in What did Michael want for Anthony? thread, begs the question What did Vito want for his children?

I reckon
1. he exploited their strengths
2. intolerant of their weaknesses
3. blind eye to their excesses
4. deaf ear to spousal abuse
5. and unless they conformed to his standards -- well -- was -- well --

He had Grand Plans but not quite workable

I think Vito's plans for his family were pretty straightforward,

Sonny would eventually become Boss of the illegal side of the business,

Mike would oversee the legitimate activities of the Corleone's,ideally under Tom's tutelage.
Public office would, of course, be one of the options that Vito would have supported.

Even though Hagen was not blood,Vito trusted him to serve as Mike's mentor,as we found out when Tom told Mike that he had discussed his future with Vito many times.

Tom would continue to serve as in-house Lawyer/ Consigliere

For Fredo, a low profile,nicely paying career, maybe small rackets (numbers,etc), Mickey Mouse nightclubs,and so forth.

For Connie,cooking, cleaning, and baby production.

Anything is possible,but I wonder how things would have turned out had Vito taken Tom and Sonny's advice on that "Solozzo business"

Sonny bad Don but still Boss

No legitimate activities for Mike until moved the family to Nevada
He angry when Tom told Mike that he had discussed his future with Vito many times.

There were no Mickey Mouse nightclubs, for Fredo
Capos have all the small rackets (numbers,etc)

Connie spousal abuse

Vito no mentor, fatherly love fatherly guidance fatherly responsibility unless they conformed to his standards

Michael's Public office would be at-odds with Sonny's illegal side of the business

Your point is well taken Evita. I've often wondered what Vito was thinking when it came to "Senator Corleone,Governor Corleone". for Mike.

At that level of public service,it would be virtually impossible for Michael to have any plausible deniability concerning the racket side of the Family. Perhaps the plan was to move Sonny into semi-legitimate ventures,i.e. unions,waste management,construction,etc,while letting the rank-and-file soldiers run the "blue collar" side,while collecting a piece without actually getting involved in the day to day operations.

Sonny would never have the intellect or temperament to rise above the basic leg-breaker level,so maybe Vito figured,"we'll just keep him as low profile and out of the spotlight as we can". However knowing Sonny,I think it would just be a matter of time before he sucker punched the Mayor.

At least,that is my two cents.
This is why I love this Board when it comes to the GF trilogy.
There are so many nuances,forks in the road,and even rabbit holes to keep us discussing,speculating,thrusting and parrying for another 50 years !

Exactly! Vito had all these grand plans seemingly “pretty straightforward” “but not quite workable” indeed

Sure thing Senator or Governor Corleone and Corleones' illegal side of the business, just cannot coexist!

Besides, in conjunction with
What did Michael want for Anthony?

Again, Vito had all these grand plans but no forward-thinking / planning including the family turmoil, it would cause

Vito was slippin'!

Senator or Governor Corleone in his position can't afford to be made to look ridiculous!

in conjunction with
What did Michael want for Anthony?

Michael advocating law enforcement or “legalized gambling” when

• his works to legalized gambling would “vastly enrich the [criminal] Corleones' [his family and his] coffers” Money laundering
• his family still has the “criminal side” [“deadly violence” possession, bookmaking, murder and a lot more!] and nefarious power
• the rich empire his father created through illegal gambling keeps operating and profiteering without any criminal justice

Sure thing Capri in the flashback scene at the end of Godfather II Michael rebuked Tom that Tom dared! to map out his future and said "You...talked to my father...about my future?"

I think it's selling Vito short to assume he didn't foresee a potential conflict between the Family business and his aspirations for Michael.

He gives us clues to his thinking in his comments to both Sollozzo and the Commission about how the traditional Mafia businesses are perceived ("harmless vice" "something most people want") vs. the way drugs are perceived. In fact, I believe his desire for a legitimate future for Michael was one of his main reasons in resisting the drug business.

Vito felt "Senator Corleone. Governor Corleone" was possible for Michael as long as the Family's criminal enterprises staying within the boundaries Vito had set.

I'm not sure I agree with him, but I believe that was his plan.

LW, it would have been possible, in the immediate postwar era, for Michael to have been elected to public office despite his name and his father. He could have established a residence of convenience in Vito's old Little Italy district, where the Corleone name was magic. The FBI wasn't on the Mob's case then, Vito didn't have an arrest record, and few Americans were aware of a "National Syndicate" of organized crime. TV was in its infancy, and "investigative journalism" was almost unknown. I think he'd be a shoo-in for Congress. Getting elected to statewide office (Senator or Governor) would have been more difficult for Michael, but with his father's money and labor muscle, Michael probably could have won. John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in '46, Senate in '52 and Presidency in '60 despite his father's high profile as a stock manipulator, Hitler-appeaser and (some said) having ties to OC.

Several of us have made a point that Vito's concept of legitimacy and all that accrues to it is different from most peoples. Yes, Vito's grand plan was to have Michael as a political powerbroker per that definition.

Don't know Turnbull the FBI was poking around, at his daughter's wedding, he was splashed across in the Newspapers as the Underworld Chief, Syndicate Big Shot

No doubt it would have been possible, with Vito's money, power, influence and the Little Italy district magic, initially, for Michael to have been elected to public office, a shoo-in for Congress.

However holding on and getting elected to statewide office (Senator or Governor) I too reckon would have been more difficult, perhaps not quite possible even with his father's money and labor muscle

Who didn't know his father is top Mob Boss with still operating and profiteering criminal enterprises

How can an elected official's family has criminal enterprises? They have to be without a blemish on their name and background!
I reckon, here lies the problem of a potential conflict between the Family business and his aspirations for Michael

"Senator Corleone. Governor Corleone" and Corleones' criminal enterprises, just cannot coexist! regardless of the boundaries Vito had set. Vito was slippin'!

I reckon Tom wasn't getting, how piqued Michael was as even after, he says Mikey, he has high hopes for you.

I can't see Tom as Mike's mentor, Mike under Tom's tutelage or Sonny as his kid brother's strong-arm protector
I reckon neither is workable

Now who's being naive, Evita?

all that comedy I am playing with this Sicilian thing!

Michael's no pezzavovante !!

Vito in his eagerness for Michael “to be the one to hold the strings” as a pezzonovante seemingly “didn't foresee a potential conflict between the Family business and his aspirations for Michael”

Vito's number crunching was off! but I also believe that was his "desire / plan"
ie: Vito's belief that Michael's "legitimate future" even "Public office" and "the Family's criminal enterprises" can coexist!

Well if Michael can say, under oath....!

Corruption, bribery of politicians not dissimilar to the ones, Vito carries in his pocket or “we'd done it before” brothel patron and "squeezing" Senator Geary is one thing but murderous "criminal enterprises" and nefarious power is not conducive to public figures!
In fact can be very harmful and destructive indeed

Sure thing Michael's initial public office “a shoo-in for Congress” thanks to the Corleone magic

Everybody undoubtedly knew who Michael was - “top Mob Boss'” son - and Michael's opponents are not going to sit back and let him have an easy, uneventful run of Congress-Senate-Presidency! without running an ignominious [successful] campaign to disgrace him

All the murderous, sordid history of Michael's family notoriety is out there for his opponents to shame him and to dishonour him
Easy pickings! indeed

Just for purposes of discussion,let's assume that Vito decides to end the Corleone's involvement in any criminal businesses in order to get Mike elected to a major political position.
Let us also assume that Sonny isn't killed.

My question is,what happens to Sonny and Fredo?
How do they make a living?

I can only guess that Vito,Mike.and Tom could manage to set up some legitimate businesses for them,so that they could have a legal income.
What about the rest of the Family associates?
We didn't really see them in the movies,but the Corleones must have had quite a few members.
It's quite possible that they could be absorbed into one of the other Families.,and continue in the rackets.

Any thoughts?

Vito could have easily ended the Corleones' involvement in all of their criminal businesses by handing over to Tessio and Clemenza and the rest of the Family associates to continue in the rackets.
I reckon this scenario could certainly be helpful to get Mike elected to a major political position

Fredo could have continued learning the casino business, banging cocktail waitresses two at a time!

I'm not sure what happens with Sonny and Carlo though

I reckon Michael could have had a "legitimate future" even after that "Solozzo business" but not "Public office" unless perhaps Vito decides to end the Corleone's involvement in any criminal businesses

No doubt initial election thanks to the Corleone magic however holding on and getting elected to a major political position, I reckon is not possible, with the murderous, criminal enterprises of Michael's family notoriety

Sure thing Lou if “Vito decides to end the Corleone's involvement in any criminal businesses” Difficult not Impossible “to get Mike – who has never been arrested or indicted for any crime whatsoever No proof linking him to any criminal conspiracy - elected to a major political position”

And if the Corleones ever need muscle they can always draw the water from Clemenza-Tessio-Family associates' well, discreetly!
Obviously their Family is not still called Corleone!

The Corleones already had their “legitimate business”! Their Genco Olive Oil Company as their Front
All Vito has to do is launder their blood money through Genco

Tom “as in-house Lawyer”

Carlo could be provided with something important ie: more than a living, in Genco
After all Carlo was gonna be Michael's right-hand man! in Nevada

As you stated “Sonny would never have the intellect or temperament to rise above the basic leg-breaker level” loose cannon indeed
Lemme think about it -- Oh, well, we'll see -- we'll see! Come on -- We can come up with something in it! for Sonny

I reckon Vito would have been laundering their criminal proceedings into Genco as and when, so that any Law enforcement IRS Tax audits would have found all the income, legal

I don't think this legitimacy was in the book Wonder why it was thrown in the movie
Everyone including Kay accepted Michael as Mob Boss

Sonny is the stone in the Corleone shoe

It was Kay who was chasing Michael in the book
Then again, we would have missed out on....!

Did Michael really love Kay?

She still marry him

So what happens with Sonny

Sonny doesn't have the brain -- uh -- for big deals except street things You're out! hothead Sonny

Vito's slipup
As regards that "Solozzo business" - It seems, Vito had kept both Sonny and Tom 'pretty much in the dark'

• Vito knew both Sonny and Tom were keen still doesn't excuse Sonny's out of turn blunder though
• not discussing his No decision with them prior to the meeting
• both were “totally in the dark” had no idea Vito had sent Luca to Tattaglias thus to Luca's death

No point having Underboss and Consigliere then keeping them in the dark

Vito knew that Santino was going to have to go through all this and be the leg-breaker Don
Just noticed, he never called Santino Sonny, always Santino

I think Mama also “never called Santino Sonny, always Santino”

Vito and Michael would have planned the Baptism murders together though the individual assassins would have come up with their own murder plans

• Neri for Barzini

Barzini could have got away!
Barzini ran up, almost to the top of the steps and could have managed to run inside the building if Neri's first shot with his pistol, had missed Barzini

• Clemenza for Strachi

Clemenza seemed spent! climbing up five flights of stairs
It seems Clemenza fired only twice into the elevator with his rifle so perhaps the elevator operator was spared if he did not die of fright

• Rocco for Tattaglia

Why the overkill for the elderly Tattaglia and his working girl, in bed
Two assassins with machine guns perhaps a throw back to Sonny's killing

• Cicci for Cuneo

What if Cuneo was not the last person exiting
It seems Cicci fired four times compared to Neri killing Barzini's bodyguard and the driver, with single shots

• ? for Greene

Where was Greene's bodyguard? There was enough time as the killer politely! waited until Greene puts on his spectacles

masseur also spared but not working girl

He didn't check Barzini was dead Vito survived five shots

Working girls were used, abused and treated like they never existed, their lives worthless
I think in the novel only Tattaglia was killed and there were no machine guns

Do you know who I am? I'm Moe Greene! is invulnerable

Driver had hands up in surrender Three not two single shots

It looks like the elevator operator quickly moved into the corner, out of Clemenza's firing range
Obviously that building Strachi was killed in, must be frequented by the mob!

That whole scene was filmed for dramatic effects, not for logic:
--Two gunmen armed with submachineguns to kill Tattaglia and the hooker he was in bed with?
--Neri takes out Barzini and company with a single .38 revolver?
--Fat Clemenza climbs all those stairs to intercept an elevator car? In that confined space, none of the three (including the operator) would have survived two shotgun blasts.

No doubt Turnbull dramatic effects, not for logic: like all the Dons and Greene were out and about at the same time, for the Corleones to synchronize their murders
If logical, what would we have to debate, half a century on!

like all the Dons and Greene were murdered leaving Don Michael Corleone only one

Want to know how many men he had killed with Carlo? Read the papers -- read the papers!

As regards "dramatic effects" Directorial licence, no logic – Nothing beats!
1. the abortion
2. Michael telling Fredo “Hyman Roth will never see the New Year”

3. Timelines

What was Vito's plans for Michael, on his return home?

Was he always going to get him to settle all Family business before embarking on his legitimate future life

Though it never says it explicitly in the movie: Vito wanted Michael home so he could turn over the reins of the family to him, I believe it was MIchael's initiative, not Vito's, to settle all family business before the move to Nevada. In a deleted part of the garden conference between Michael and Vito, MIchael says, "What about Sonny? What about Sicily?" Vito admits "It was a sign of weakness" that he didn't attempt vengeance. I infer that it meant he was leaving that to Michael. In the novel, Michael warns Vito that if he attempts to dissuade him from going ahead with the Great Massacre, Michael would go his own way.

Sure thing Turnbull Vito was leaving - settling all Family business - to Michael after Vito died Thanks! Pop

Vito, always the Nice guy! won't make his daughter a widow So leaves his dirty work for Michael, to make his sister a widow
Vito never thought about all the turmoil – killing Carlo, Fredo stepped over – would cause Michael -- Vito never gave a damn....