If Michael and Kay already married

Michael and Kay were already married and living the civilian life when Vito was shot

How would he's gonna kill Pop. That's the key for him. Gotta get Sollozzo play out?

As we saw, Michael was keeping his family at a distance at Connies wedding. If he'd been married at that time, he'd have been even more aloof from his family,
But, as a dutiful son, he went to visit his father at the hospital. There's no reason for me to think he wouldn't have visited Vito if he'd been married.

The key event in the Trilogy is Michael finding no guards on Vito at the hospital, and Mac slugging him. Those events set him on an irrevocable path--it awoke the dormant Corleone in him. I'm guessing that, even if he were married, he'd have wanted to kill Sol and Mac--to protect Vito and for vengeance.

No they weren't!

What a dilemma! only civilian Michael could get near Sollozzo to carry out the killings of Sollozzo and McCluskey

Sure thing Turnbull - Extracts:
"There's no reason for me to think he wouldn't have visited Vito if he'd been married" and “even if he were married, he'd have wanted to kill Sol and Mac--to protect Vito and for vengeance”

However...

• what about Kay? and their children?
• I can't see Kay and the kids hiding out! in the Sicilian countryside, with Michael which would be even more dangerous as well
• and the WASP! drawing even more attention
• would Michael just disappear leaving his wife and kids not knowing when he would be back?
• would Sonny be able to “square it” with Kay after Michael's AWOL same as with Mama Corleone
• I doubt Kay gonna come along with Michael in these things he has to do -- or what and more likely takes the children and moves them all to New Hampshire!

Good points Lana, my fellow Aussie. Perhaps the Sollozzo hit would have played out differently? What we see in the movie, and than after Michael is driven away, a cleaner goes in and kills everybody in the restaurant. Noone left to possibly identify Michael. Messy, sure, but the exile option is not viable with Kay, as you point out.

All of this is speculative, Lana, which is what makes your original question so interesting.

All I can say is that, IMO, the hospital drama unlocked the inner Corleone in Michael, meaning (to me) that the Sicilian Mafia fixation on "honor" and "vengeance" dwelled within Michael, and it doesn't necessarily follow a logical path. Although Michael wasn't married to Kay at that point, and had no children, he clearly loved Kay and was planning to marry her (according to the novel) soon, But, he abandoned her to protect his father and for vengeance.

In the novel, Vito says (several times) that 'A man has but one destiny:" I believe Michael's destiny was to be a criminal--successor to Vito. I can't justify my viewpoint beond that.

car bomb kill Kay He come back with Apollonia and they live happily ever after

I think the book fleshes out that Sonny was ruled out because he has a wife and kids unlike Michael then but now if he is in the same boat No doubt dilemma!

Sollozzo only wants civilian Michael to proposition but really to buy time until he can finish Vito off
If he did kill Sol and Mac, would he need to go into hiding? exile option is not viable with Kay

Who is going to identify the son of the top Mafia Don

In the novel, Sonny says (of killing Sol and Mac), "I could do it." Tom dismisses this immediately. "Solozzo wouldn't let you near him if he had 10 police captains. Besides, as the acting head of the family, you can't be risked."

Yeah, right! imagine the nerve of the sonofabitch Turk propositioning hot headed Sonny for truce
oh, well at least Sonny's last meal! the best veal in the city

Sure thing Turnbull “All of this is speculative” which keeps the Board fire still burning!

We have pretty much exhausted all possible avenues, half a century on and now resorting to – not “necessarily follow a logical path” what ifs – which are still riveting! for us die-hard fans to engage in and enjoy....

I [believe along with other participating members] am just grateful someone keeps coming up with “original question so interesting” including this thread by Evita

The sequence of events starting with Michael learning of Vito's shooting, undoubtedly “unlocked the inner Corleone in Michael” including

It seems once Michael learnt of Vito's shooting, Michael's girlfriend, Kay was on the outer, shut out “he abandoned her to protect his father and for vengeance” but different scenario if Michael was married to Kay at that point and/or had children

If the Corleones can't get Sollozzo, Sollozzo will get Vito and the only one who could get to Sollozzo was civilian Michael
catch-22 no-brainer! indeed

I always appreciate your view point whether justified or not! [as mine! can be as well] and enjoy our enthralling! debates
If everything is justified, what is there to debate?!

My take, for what it is worth!
I believe Michael still had the “destiny” of a life away from Mafia on his return from Sicily as Michael was cleared of all these 'false' charges of killing McCluskey and Sollozzo if Vito hadn't dragged Michael deeper into criminal life

not the waiter!
He was nervous and struggling to open the bottle of wine even before anything happened We can see Sollozzo's annoyance too

That poor waiter sprayed with blood and brains all over his nice white uniform, let alone....

• Another interesting twist

The killer of Sol and Mac, perhaps need not go into exile after all and Kay never knows that it was Michael all along!

Certainly Michael had choices not to be a criminal at each stage of his life.I started a thread on that subject:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=872539&Searchpage=1&Main=34326&Words=%2BSorry%2C+%2BPop&Search=true#Post872539

But, he chose the criminal path each time. His destiny? Maybe...

I don't think Michael went to Sicily to avoid criminal prosecution. He was trying to escape a retaliatory hit.

While Vito talks at the meeting of the need to clear Michael of "all these false charges" the real message - and motivation for making peace - was to make it safe for Michael to come back without being assassinated.

It doesn't seem like any officials know of Michael's involvement until Cicci rats Michael out to the Senate committee.

Getting back to the original question, the Mafia code of the day probably meant that a wife and kids would not be targeted. So it's definitely possible that Michael still would have gone through with the hit, viewing the time away from his family as a necessary sacrifice to keep his father safe.

I remember my Catechism. Seems like Predestination to me.

Insightful evaluation Woltz as always

No doubt it's definitely possible that Michael still would have gone through with the hit because If the Corleones can't get Sollozzo, Sollozzo will get Vito and the only one who could get to Sollozzo was civilian Michael

While Michael viewing the time away from his family as a necessary sacrifice to keep his father safe but what about his wife Kay and/or any children?

I reckon it is unlikely she would be told beforehand and before or after I doubt Kay gonna come along with Michael in these things he has to do -- or what

It was Vito who chose the criminal path for him, with the added burden of trying to make decades old Mafia business legitimate

Vito could have cut their losses and walked away from Mafia, leaving Clemenza and Tessio in charge but he didn't because he wanted, needed the Corleone family reputation, standing, history etc. to be restored, leaving a murderous legacy for Michael

Once Michael took over, it was not easy just to walk away Kill or be Killed
No one is going to give him a pass and let him off because at some stage, he chose not to employ criminal tactics, for protection from the horrors of their Dog-eat-Dog world, no longer

What choices he had not to be a criminal at any stage of his life?

It seems to me it was both “criminal prosecution” and “retaliatory hit”
Michael is a dead man either way by whoever gets to him first

If Tattaglia who is a pimp and Barzini the puppeteer hiding behind Tattaglia [presumably both would have known about Sollozzo-McCluskey-Michael meeting] still had the stomach! to take on the Corleones who had just gunned down a New York police captain, which has never been done before....

If Michael is identified as the Cop killer "Police Hunt Cop Killer" "City Cracks Down" No surprise - killed resisting arrest / trying to escape

I agree Woltz “the real message - and motivation for making peace - was to make it safe for Michael to come back without being assassinated”

Vito made the drug protection concessions from perceived weak position and things have also loosened up, all of which lulling other Dons into a false sense of security
1. no Sonny
2. Vito was sick
3. and Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well
4. Michael was not considered Mafia Don material nor threat

“Once Michael took over” it was “Dog-eat-Dog” and “Kill or be Killed” even more so than Vito's times Tiger by the tail indeed

Besides Michael needed his muscle [Pentangeli] otherwise Michael becomes just another casino operator, easy pickings for anyone

only stage his return from Sicily then no choices he had not to be a criminal at any stage
Michael is a dead man if no muscle

If he did kill Sol and Mac, would he need to go into hiding?

I reckon he need not have gone into hiding and could have weathered the storm

As regards investing his wealth legitimately, could he have got licenses in his name for legal casinos in Nevada from the Gaming Commission with his nefarious history?

Nailed it

Maybe so but it would have been brutal....Pretty goddamn bad with all the other Families lining up against the Corleones even with Michael in exile let alone....and Vito still in the hospital

Did Michael have licences in his name / ownership, prior and only later forced to hide his controlling interests

Roth was the same The retired investor on a pension, hiding behind their registered owners

Why did Michael seek out Kay?

Michael's been back longer than a year from Sicily and Michael knew he was going to be Mafia Don
Surely the family could have found Michael a nice Italian origin bride, suitable Mob Boss wife!

I believe Michael really loved Kay at the beginning--before Vito was shot. You see him actually being playful with Kay in their hotel room in a deleted scene. But, after he killed Sol and Mac, and Sicily, and Apollonia was killed, Michael was a changed man. There's no romance in the scene where he woos Kay in New Hampshire--it was a business negotiation, Kay was another step in his obsessive quest for "legitimacy"--a WASP wife to bear his children and bolster his "legitimate" front. Whatever remaining feelings he had for Kay were subordinate to his selfish personal plans.

scene mechanical He need nice Italian origin bride, suitable Mob Boss wife! understanding and support until "legitimacy" not whiny WASP horror wife

I think Michael married Kay as a reaction against where he saw his life was inevitably headed. She was a bridge back to the last time he was both free and happy, with particular emphasis on free.

Maybe so I reckon he had embraced his no different to any other powerful man, Mafia Don confidently and proudly telling Vito I'll handle it. I told you I can handle it, I'll handle it.

I reckon he was surprisingly honest The real shock was Kay marrying him

Surely the family could have found Michael a nice Italian origin bride, suitable Mob Boss wife! to bear his children

WASP wife didn't bolster his "legitimate" front. Geary didn't hold back with his insulting and disparaging slurs of him and his family

He was honest She knew the exact situation

Was this honest?


Kay, my father's way of doing things is over -- it's finished. Even he knows that. I mean in

five years, the Corleone Family is going to be completely legitimate.

Maybe Kay deluded herself, but it's not like Michael was exactly forthright with her.

I reckon he truly believed in what he was saying that he could settle all Family business by murdering just his enemies then live a “legitimate” life as if his criminal past never existed

Maybe Michael deluded himself too What did Kay think happens during those five years?

Michael told Kay he'd been back from Sicily for a year. That would have given him plenty of time to discuss his, and the Family's, future with his father. I doubt that Vito would have planned to wipe out the heads of the other Families at that point, though Michael may have seen it as inevitable. So, I think he was, at best, deluding himself (as you said) when he told Kay that the Family would be completely legitimate in five years. More likely, he was lying to her to get her to marry him.

There's a big anomaly in that scene:

It's set in 1947: the wood paneled car in the background is a '47 Ford wagon, and the limo that follows them is a '47 Cadillac. Also, Michael says, "My father is sick, very sick," an exaggeration but an indication that he was still recovering from the December '45 shooting. BUT the day when he "settles all family business" is set in 1955--again by the cars shown. That's eight years later--too many years for the Corleones to be pretending that they were "weak" and ready to be knocked over. In reality, the pact that Vito made with the other Dons at the Commission meeting only covered his agreement to protect drug trafficking in the East, and the other Dons' agreement not to interfere with Michael's return to the US. It didn't cover their encroaching on Corleone territories, as Tession bitterly complained in the fish tank scene, No way would Michael and Vito have been around eight years later (in 1955), BTW: The novel gives no date for the day when Michael settled all family business.

My take, for what it is worth!
Both Michael and Kay deluded themselves

“when he told Kay that the Family would be completely legitimate in five years” as Evita posted “he truly believed” that would be so

Why would Michael need to lie to Kay to get her to marry him?
Michael had no qualms marrying Apollonia and surely could have married a nice Italian origin bride, suitable Mob Boss wife! instead of seeking Kay out

Coppola and Puzo messing with us! these anomaly things....

Kay was going to live her rich and privileged life funded by tainted money from other people's murder, misery and blood during those five years whilst her husband was laundering his unholy and evil, blood money clean

Michael's get out of jail free card! “Trust me That's all I can tell you about my business”

Sure thing Turnbull we could see the changes occurring in Michael among others, from the moment Michael reading about Vito's murder attempt in the Newspaper, his dinner with Kay in the hotel just before Michael visited Vito at the hospital and the subsequent sequence of events

Michael seemed to sense he cannot continue to distance himself “That's my family, It's not me” and needed to step up

It seems the WASP is our doing! As far as I can recall there was no such mention in the movie?
Besides WASP Kay was already Michael's girlfriend, long before Michael having to become the Don and the quest for "legitimacy"

Maybe I'm missing some meaning: it was "nearly ten years" from Connie's wedding party to Vito's wake, and the assassinations just a few days later.

Let's tackle the timeline once more, For Ol' Times' sake!

1. Connie's wedding and Vito's shooting in '45
2. Michael flees to Sicily in '46

If we timeline Michael wooing Kay in New Hampshire as '47 it leaves no time for Sicily during which there were Gangland war, Apollonia, Sonny is killed, getting Michael back and more

If he "settles all family business" in 1955 working back and rounding off to 'six' years, Michael's return to the US is perhaps '49 still --too many years for the Corleones to be pretending that they were "weak" and ready to be knocked over. let alone eight

1. Michael's been back longer than a year
2. New Hampshire 1951?
3. Anthony born 1952?
4. He was 3 years old in the Garden scene presumably 1955 Vito's death and the assassinations

(as you said)

I too reckon WASP is our doing!
Besides WASP Kay was already Michael's girlfriend, long before Michael having to become the Don and the quest for "legitimacy"

Maybe both deluded themselves but he didn't lie to Kay to get her to marry him There was no need
As Michael had no qualms marrying Apollonia, there was nothing stopping him from marrying a nice Italian origin bride, suitable Mob Boss wife! instead of seeking Kay out

Kay too had no qualms and was going to live her rich and privileged life as Mob Boss' wife for those five years

He started I'm working for my father now and finish my business”

'six' years plus three previous '46 '47 '48 Nine altogether
encroaching on Corleone territories but no attempts after Sonny is killed, to knock them over

[/i]

Originally Posted by Capri

Originally Posted by Evita

If we timeline Michael wooing Kay in New Hampshire as '47 it leaves no time for Sicily during which there were Gangland war, Apollonia, Sonny is killed, getting Michael back and more

If he "settles all family business" in 1955 working back and rounding off to 'six' years, Michael's return to the US is perhaps '49 still --too many years for the Corleones to be pretending that they were "weak" and ready to be knocked over. let alone eight

1. Michael's been back longer than a year
2. New Hampshire 1951?
3. Anthony born 1952?
4. He was 3 years old in the Garden scene presumably 1955 Vito's death and the assassinations

'six' years plus three previous '46 '47 '48 Nine altogether
encroaching on Corleone territories but no attempts after Sonny is killed, to knock them over

Here is a timeline I put together for Michael's sojourn in Sicily [i]based on the novel. Trying to put together a coherent timeline for anything in the movies is impossible.
http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=580389&Searchpage=1&Main=20650&Words=%2BMichael+%2Bin+%2BSicily&Search=true#Post580389

Going by Michael's own words “I've been back a year. Longer than that, I think.” pregnancy and Anthony being three years old, point to, around six odd years wait for the assassinations

There was no price on his head until Michael's own There are people who'd pay a lot of money for who he was, information
Thunderbolt clouded his reason and affected his judgment!

Such an extensive, well researched, informative thread indeed Turnbull you'd outdone yourself!

It seems the only dates clear and consistent as could be, are -

• the Killing of Sollozzo and McCluskey and Michael fleeing to Sicily was in January 1946
• Anthony was born in 1952
• Baptism murders were in 1955
• Anthony's communion party was in 1958 which makes Michael wooing Kay in New Hampshire 1951 due to Kay telling Michael:

So Michael's Sicilian exile was around three years? and Michael returned to America in 1949?
Going by Michael's own words “I've been back a year. Longer than that, I think.” Then again, what is longer than a year....?!

It seems with Sonny's killing, things loosened up and the Corleones were successful “pretending that they were "weak" and ready to be knocked over” - by doing nothing when Barzini's people tested the Corleones by chiselling Tessio's territory - until the Baptism murders!
ie: 1946 to 1955 nine years!!

I emphasized (by italics) that my timeline was based on the novel, not the movies. GFII makes it impossible to construct even a tentative timeline for Michael's Sicilian sojourn because nothing in II (except for some of Vito's young years) is in the novel.

Is Sicilian exile three years too long

Maybe I am misunderstanding? For clarity please I understood yours is *based on the novel Mine the movies Tongue-in-cheek!
eg: among others my No kidding! - that's [coherent timeline in the movies] an impossibility....