Corleones destiny

What could the Corleones have done differently that may have changed the way things turned out

The starting point is the flash back scene
1. Sonny had just introduced Carlo to Connie
2. Michael had enlisted in the Marines

Scenes following
1. Their wedding
2. Sollozzo's meeting

• Vito and Carlo

If Vito had such contempt for Carlo why allow the marriage in the first place? the trigger that changed the course of events

Carlo had high hopes!

Sonny was forced to get involved in Carlo beating up Connie because of Vito's inaction resulting in Sonny's death and.....

Start right near the beginning, after Vito was shot:

Tom said it would be impossible to gun down a police captain. And, when Michael volunteered to kill Mac and Sol, Tom scoffed. But Michael replied:
"I'm talking about a cop -- that's mixed up in drugs. I'm talking about a dishonest cop -- a crooked cop who got mixed up in the rackets and got what was
coming to him. That's a terrific story. And we have newspaper people on the payroll, don't
we, Tom? And they might like a story like that."

Michael should have followed his own advice because he was right: the newspapers had already played up Vito's shooting. So, instead of Michael killing Mac, he and Tom could have leaked Mac's involvement with Sol the drug dealer and Vito's shooting to the reporters on the Corleones' payroll. They'd have given it a tremendous sendoff. The Police Commissioner, embarrassed, would have had to suspend or transfer Mac, and assign police protection to Vito in hospital to prevent further embarrassment. The entire police force would have been ordered to hunt down Sol and kill him, "attempting to escape," to prevent him from squealing on his relationship with Mac. Michael, his hands clean, could have married Kay and gone back to college. And we wouldn't have had a Godfather Trilogy.

Vito three down
1. allowing their marriage
2. Vito's inaction
3. getting shot

I reckon, Michael was talking about dead McCluskey that the newspaper people on their payroll might like a story like that after the dishonest, crooked Police Captain was killed

Will they publish he is mixed up in the rackets as terrific story as it is, when he was still alive? What happens until all this is arranged?
What if McCluskey finds a way to let Sollozzo have another fatal attempt in spite of the armed private detectives protecting Vito

Evita, Michael was saying that the reporters on the Corleones' payroll would love a story about how a dead, crooked Mac (killed by Michael) got what was coming to him. I'm saying that they'd love even more to have the opportunity to expose a live, crooked cop mixed up with drugs and murder because, when the Police Commissioner fired, suspended or transferred Mac, they could brag that they did a "civic duty" by "exposing corruption."

Another one on Vito: his continued keeping of Fredo on his "shit list" and promotion of Michael to Don.

This only festered and led to Fredo being easy prey for 'friendly' lips. This turned out to be catastrophic for Michael's family. Small f.

But Sollozzo was the problem, not McCluskey, McCluskey was just collateral damage.

Michael's whole point was that they can't wait, because Sollozzo was going to kill Vito ("That's the key for him.")

How long would it take to get McCluskey fired, transferred or suspended? Days? Weeks? Months? Even once he was dead, it seemed to take a while for the newspapers to get enough out on McCluskey to allow things to loosen up. It surely would take longer if McCluskey was still alive.

And getting McCluskey out of the picture doesn't mean that Sollozzo is no longer a threat to Vito. It just makes Sollozzo a bit easier to kill.

Don't know Woltz Sonny had a hundred button men on the street 24 hours a day looking for Sollozzo but that Turk didn't show one hair on his ass!

Vito has to answer for his failings which changed the course of, caused all these unfortunate but avoidable events including Sonny's and Fredo's deaths, Michael's misery, Connie's widowhood

'Cause a man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man Go figure

The more we discuss Vito, the more I am baffled how Vito is fêted as the family man
Vito was instrumental, contributed and caused the misery of every one of his children to their gloom and doom including the violent deaths of Santino and Fredo Thanks! Pop

Michael still “could have married Kay and gone back to college” even after killing McCluskey and Sollozzo, on his return from Sicily if Vito hadn't dragged Michael into the Corleone crime organization deeper

among others -

• Sonny

1. Sonny letting Sollozzo know, Sonny was hot for Sollozzo's narcotics deal
2. Sonny was a hothead, can't talk business with him yet Vito would have made Sonny Don if Sonny had not been killed
3. Sonny also taking the risk visiting his goumar Lucy's apartment during the gangland warfare

• Tom and Vito

Tom not digging deep enough to unearth the Barzini connection with Sollozzo's narcotics trade deal
Tom obviously stopped when Tom unearthed the Tattaglia connection and looked pretty pleased with his handiwork when Sollozzo said “My compliments”

Then Vito would have upped his personal protection and been ready for Barzini too

• Tom and Michael

Tom letting his one and only client, Michael commit perjury because Tom had no idea Pentangeli had survived and was the secret weapon being prepared in custody, to corroborate Michael's murderous, nefarious power as the head of the Corleone crime family

Tom also had no idea Roth was returning to America after being refused refuge in various other countries

oh, well! Tom was not a wartime Consiglieri

among others -

• Michael

Michael having got hit by thunderbolt Appollonia, blowing his cover, tells Appollonia's father Vitelli in front of his bodyguards – tempting Fabrizio to turn traitor

Michael [and Vito too] did nothing to nurture Fredo unless we count Sonny packing Fredo off to learn the casino business
Poor Fredo copped it from everyone - Vito, Carmela, Sonny, Michael, Greene, Deanna

Michael went away soon after the Tahoe bedroom shooting, then was away for Christmas, New Year comes home and doesn't even offer comfort and support to his wife Kay who had just had a miscarriage

Then goes and talks to Carmela, his mother about losing their family instead of Kay, his wife Go figure!
How did Mama know Kay had lost their baby?!

When the said Police Captain is found dead right next to a man named Virgil Sollozzo whose business was narcotics.....

Truce until Sollozzo finds another way! this time fatal for Vito

It seems McCluskey was taking bribes left, right and centre even openly dining with narcotics man Sollozzo
Wasn't the Corleones paying McCluskey?!

The novel says they were. Tom told Sonny that "he's greedy and untrustworthy to do business with."

others paying him more

oh, well! Tom was not a wartime Consiglieri Vito slippin' Michael blowing his cover
women and children can be careless, but not men.

Characters have to be credited with free will, or there's no story to tell. Vito's woes could be blamed on his father, who could blame his father, etc. There's certainly no evidence that Vito forced Connie to marry Carlo. What we see is that Vito disliked and distrusted Carlo. It's reasonable to assume that he discouraged the wedding. It can't be Vito's fault that Connie insisted on the wrong man, or there's no narrative. We know from the book that Vito tried to keep Sonny out of the rackets, and that Sonny ended up a teen holdup man. We know that Vito was comatose when Michael crossed the threshold and took part in the war planning. The best-laid plans of even the most-powerful are easily defeated by the whims of the next generation. That's life.

Well said Pete.

I also reckon Michael still could have had a life away from Mafia if not for Vito no doubt

True Pete Characters have to be credited with free will, or there's no story to tell.

There is no indication from what was seen in the movie that he discouraged the wedding
If Vito disliked and distrusted Carlo why let him into the family, to marry his only daughter?

As we debated in Vito and Fredo thread:
I reckon it is not complaining or blaming their parents It is not interfering, it is parental guidance

Sonny's philandering, Connie's bad choice of husband, Carlo's wife beating, Fredo's sexual excess, Moe slapping him around all went undisciplined Fredo was left rudderless

Vito's action, inaction and slip ups adversely affected every one of his children and his son-in-law including violent deaths

No doubt that was painful to watch

How did Mama know? Tom wouldn't have told her Kay unlikely So how?

It makes sense McCluskey would be taking bribes and kickbacks from every criminal big and small

However McCluskey pulling the “guinea hoods” guarding Vito in the hospital off so that Sollozzo can finish Vito off, would get around and as “greedy and untrustworthy” as McCluskey is, wouldn't it make all the others paying McCluskey off, jittery, causing problems

Sure thing Pete “Characters have to be credited with free will” to mess up! “or there's no story to tell”

• What did Vito do, to guide, mentor, nurture and embrace his different sons?

Fredo
especially the son who seemingly was not cut out for Mafia life
Vito's dismissal of Fredo “And Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well --” Thanks! Pop

Fredo feeling inadequate that Fredo was a failure because of the pressure Fredo was under that he was not more like Pop
Then adding insult to injury Fredo was stepped over without making any face-saving provision for him

Sonny
If Sonny had not been killed rushing to Connie's aid [due to Vito's inaction] Sonny getting killed as a bad Don was just a matter of time

Michael
Michael was cleared of all these 'false' charges of killing McCluskey and Sollozzo
So why didn't Vito let Michael try “a life away from Mafia” on his return from Sicily instead of dragging Michael deeper into criminal life

Maybe the Corleones were not paying him because setting Vito up for Sollozzo to finish him off is not the act of a friend

Tom and Sonny talk about McCluskey as a brand new development?

It seems to me McCluskey was not on the Corleones payroll? and from what we saw in the movie – McCluskey “setting Vito up for Sollozzo to finish him off” - sort of makes sense now....

They no need for Captain McCluskey politicians in Vito's pocket still “setting Vito up for Sollozzo to finish him off” fanciful

How did Mama know Kay had lost their baby?!

Maybe I'm misunderstanding: I believe that Mama lived as part of their household, so would know whenever Kay was not healthy.

So she would know Fredo betrayal What she thought would happen to him

Mama would have known of Fredo's betrayal and that he was banished from the compound but would have never thought he would be killed

It is fleshed out in the book McCluskey was peeved he has to return the money because Sollozzo's men couldn't get to Vito
He was also under the impression Michael would surrender after killing Sollozzo It never occurred to him he was his next victim

Connie knew too

Michael and Tom at the Desert Inn - Extracts:
Why would Michael think, expect Tom to know the whereabouts of Fredo and how to contact Fredo

Wasn't Tom in charge of the family at that time? It was international news what happened in Cuba, so Tom probably had everyone trying to figure out what happened to Mike and Fredo. That's all I have for you.

I started a thread that touches on this subject a long while ago:


http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=472494&Searchpage=1&Main=16944&Words=%2BFredo+%2BRoth+%2Bconspiracy&Search=true#Post472494

Short answer: Fredo told Tom everything and Michael guessed it. Don Cardi, one of our esteemed members, even created a plausible dialog between Tom and Fredo.

Fredo/Roth conspiracy
Thanks Turnbull I remember this thread from the old days!

Michael & Roth's casinos
As we discussed, we are none the wiser as to how Fredo, last sighted walking in a daze amongst the rebel uprising chaos, got out of Havana let alone how Fredo would know that Roth had a stroke, was brought out of Havana on a private boat and is in a Miami hospital

Thanks blueracing347 Oops! missed it....

Tom either panic mode or elation - Don Hagen!

Let's go through this step by step:
1. Fredo's fatal gaffe at the Superman show told Michael that Fredo was the traitor, in cahoots with Roth and Ola.
2. Michael, from his car, shouted at Fredo, stumbling through the street, "It's [his plane] the only way out of here tonight." But, we see a bunch of gringos running for their boats at the marina.
3. When Tom meets with Michael in Vegas, he tells Michael that Roth had a stroke, recovered, got out in a boat, bodyguard's dead. Michael asks about Fredo, Tom says he's in NY.
4. How did Tom know that Fredo was in NY? Fredo called him--and told him about Roth and the bodyguard. How did Fredo know about Roth and the bodyguard--and how did he get out of Havana and then to NY? Because he was on the boat with Roth.
5. Michael figures that out right away. That's why he tells Tom, "Get word to Fredo, tell him I know Roth misled him..."

No doubt Tom's wealth of information came from Fredo

How would Fredo, last sighted walking in a daze amongst the rebel uprising chaos even connect with Roth's people
1. If he did come with them how did they find him in all that chaos?
2. Who would know their relationship Roth in a coma was in no position to tell anyone anything
3. Why would they even bother looking for him, needle in a haystack scenario, their priority would have been sick Roth and getting out

Gotta give the director some license, Evita.

Maybe so We all know Coppola's fanatical attention to details that he would leave out and not even give an indication of how he was on the boat with Roth is not in accordance

What does that tell you? We can win!

Nobody bothered because everyone know he was with Michael and expect the brothers to get out together

I think Geary is a candidate for getting Fredo out. We see him entering the embassy. Americans without their own passage would head to the embassy. At that point, Geary would think that he was doing Michael a favor by helping Fredo.

Don't know Pete Fredo had already left before Batista's resignation and Geary would not have known Michael had figured out he was the traitor So why would he think that he was doing Michael a favor by helping Fredo even if he found him amongst the rebel uprising chaos

Geary and the other big shots were rushing to the US Embassy, trying to pass through the gate, everyone for himself

Perhaps as Vito said! “Every man has but one destiny"

The below were before the above Yet....Michael identified himself thus cementing his bullseye target
Women are indeed more dangerous than shotguns!