Do you blame Tom for Sonny's death?

Your thoughts?

No. I blame Sonny for Sonny's death.

However, Michael blamed Tom for Sonny's death.

Michael is the ultimate hypocrite. He blames Tom - entirely unjustly - for Sonny's death. Yet he murdered Fredo.

This theory is often floated but nothing I see supports it

My take Sonny is the one solely responsible for his own death and I doubt anyone blamed anyone for Sonny's death
Whilst Carlo helped set the trap, it was indeed Sonny who made himself the easy target

After Connie's phone call, nobody could have stopped the enraged wild bull Sonny charging out not even Luca Brasi!

among others -

Godfather

• Sollozzo to Michael in the car taking Sollozo and McCluskey to their deaths!

I hope you're not a hothead like your brother Sonny You can't talk business with him

• Tom to Sonny just before Sonny's “Pop had Genco look what I got”

Yeah, well you're getting a great reputation! I hope you're enjoying it

• Vito to Tom in the Fish tank scene

Santino was a bad Don, rest in peace

Godfather II

• Sonny's daughter at Vito's surprise birthday party flashback scene

Mommy, Daddy's fighting again

Godfather III

• Michael muttering to himself about Vincent when discussing the trouble between Vincent and Joey Zasa

Temper like his father

I think that Vito would have told Michael that no one could tell Sonny what was good for him.

I think that any trouble between Michael and Tom would be that they're both intellectuals. This makes Tom somewhat redundant, but it also makes him a potential critic - and Michael can't abide that.

How you support your theory? No blaming

I see no blaming either

Of course Oli and everyone else here who took that position are right: Sonny's uncontrollable temper and poor judgment sealed his fate. The slam-dunk certainty that Sonny, after hearing that Carlo beat Connie again, would rush out to her, in the middle of a war, unprotected, was the basis of Barzini's plot against him. It couldn't miss.

That's the reason I think Tom had some culpability in Sonny's death--his background and training made him unprepared for that eventuality. As a lawyer and a non-Italian uninvolved in the muscle end of the business, he was an excellent Family front man for dealing with the largely Irish and Jewish judges and politicians Vito needed in NY, and the Mormon officials in Nevada. But, as Michael said, he was not a wartime consigliere. Lawyers are trained to conciliation and negotiation, not in waging bloody wars in the streets. And, law is logical, orderly and rational--Tom wasn't on the lookout for the irrational need--compulsion--for vengeance that is so much a part of traditional Sicilian male "honor. Whatever else Carlo was or wasn't, he was a Sicilian. I'm sure Barzini had no difficulty recruiting him to beat up Connie again by telling him that it was a surefire plan to redeem his "honor" after Sonny humiliated him in the street. Tom wouldn't have seen it coming.

Tom admitted it to himself, in the novel: After learning of Sonny's murder he concludes that he "was no fit wartime consigliere...old Genco would have smelled a rat." Of course he would have. Tom didn't.

I think you are being too harsh! on Tom

Sicilian Vito the most experienced, long reigning top Mafia Don “wasn't on the lookout for the irrational need--compulsion--for vengeance” by Sollozzo after Vito's refusal to help with Sollozzo's narcotics trade

As Vito said in the Garden scene Sicilian “Santino was going to have to go through all this” ie: Don in training didn't see it coming either

Then, what chance Tom “non-Italian uninvolved in the muscle end of the business” with his lawyer “background and training” and not a wartime consigliere have, to see it coming

So how “old Genco [this wonder! consigliere with all his heroics!] would have smelled a rat" and “Tom didn't”

I doubt “Michael blamed Tom for Sonny's death” even if “Tom had some culpability in Sonny's death” as unltimately and undoubtedly "Sonny's uncontrollable temper and poor judgment sealed his fate"

Tom “could tell Sonny what was good for him” and Sonny did listen to Tom, among others -
1. Sonny agreed to wait until Michael's We can't wait Killing Pop is the key for Sollozzo
2. Sonny didn't go after Tattaglia

As far as I can recall, the only time we saw the “critic” Tom was when Tom tried to discourage Michael from killing Roth which was “Difficult not impossible” and was a success indeed

Tom couldn't see that Roth would always have been dangerous threat to Michael - kill or be killed

Tom and Fredo
I believe "any trouble between Michael and Tom" was due to among others, the above

Both Vito and Michael knew Tom was not a wartime consigliere but I don't believe either blamed Tom for Sonny's death

After Sonny's gaffe at the drugs meeting, Vito called in Luca Brasi and told him: "I'm a little worried about this Solozzo fellow." What he was worried about was that Sol would make a move against him to force him pr Sonny to reverse his decision not to accept Sol's deal. That wasn't irrational, it was business. Where Vito slipped was in the next sentence: "Go to the Tattaglias, tell them you're not too happy with our family..." as if anyone would believe that Luca would abandon his Don--or that Vito would allow Luca to ply his deadly trade for another family.

After Sonny's gaffe at the drugs meeting, Vito called in Luca Brasi told him: "I'm a little worried about this Solozzo fellow." What he was worried about was that Sol would try to kill him to force Sonny to reverse his decision not to accept Sol's deal. That wasn't Sol being irrational, it was business. Where Vito slipped was in the next sentence: "Go to the Tattaglias, tell them you're not too happy with our family..." as if anyone would believe that Luca would abandon his Don--or that Vito would allow Luca to ply his deadly trade for another family.


I think Michael resented Tom's position in the family. Tom was Sonny's choice for a brother, not Michael's Tom was Vito's choice for consigliere, not Michael's. In the flashback scene at the end of II, after Michael reveals that he joined the Marines, Tom says, "Your father and I have talked many times about your future." Michael fixes him with the Dreaded Corleone Stare and says, "You...talked to my father...about my future?" So, when Sonny was killed, Michael was predisposed to blame Sonny's brother and Vito's consigliere for his death.
Tom knew it, too. Right after the Tahoe shooting, Michael says, "Tom, you're my brother." Tom practically breaks down weeping: "I always wanted to be regarded as a brother by you, Mike"--which tells me that he didn't think Michael regarded him as a brother.

Turnbull you think “Michael blamed Tom for Sonny's death”

Sorry I was not clear I was referring to Vito leaving himself wide open for his hit such an easy target with just “And Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well --” and buying fruit alone out in the open especially if it was a regular thing ie: easy tracking of Vito's movements - sitting duck! [Fredo waits in the car!]

Sure thing Turnbull trying to find out what Sollozzo's got under his fingernails was business [sending Luca to do so was irrational!]

Sollozzo's only “move against him [Vito] to force him[?] or Sonny to reverse his decision not to accept Sol's deal” would have to be the murder of Vito for which Vito was so ill-prepared, underestimating Sollozzo and never saw it coming

Whilst Michael may have resented Tom for the reasons you mentioned and “that he [Tom] didn't think Michael regarded him as a brother” I still doubt “Michael blamed Tom for Sonny's death”

Michael would have fixed anyone who dared! to map out his future “with the Dreaded Corleone Stare and said "You...talked to my father...about my future?"

If I am not misunderstanding your post, you are making a connection between the flashback scene and "Michael was predisposed to blame Sonny's brother and Vito's consigliere for his death"

I fail to see the connection?

Mr Turnbull could you, uh -- amplify your answer a bit? Thanks

Astute question, Lana.
I can't prove it--I'm inferring from the number of times we see Michael being abrupt and harsh with Tom, and his statement that "You're not a wartime consigliere," that he doubted Tom's competence. So, I believe it's possible that he might have been inclined to blame Sonny's death on Tom because Tom didn't see Carlo's treachery coming. It's also possible that Michael may have resented that he had to take the reins of the family following Sonny's death, and needed Tom as a scapegoat. Likely? No. Possible? Yes.

Nothing changes the fact that Sonny dug his own grave through his uncontrollable temper.

Also, TB, at the wedding reception Michael tells Kay that Tom is not a Sicilian. There's no need for him state that to Kay. She would not know of its significance. So, why does he say that to Kay? Well, he's expressing some degree of resentment. I also noted that Michael tells Kay "he's [Tom] been with us ever since." That's less than an affectionate expression. So, Michael is predisposed to find fault with Tom.

Sorry I didn't grasp your second post was different! from your first

It is even worse if Vito anticipated such a move from Sollozzo and still was so ill-prepared when the hit happened
This is totally unacceptable! slippin' from Sicilian Vito the most experienced, long reigning top Mafia Don I'd give Tom a pass!!

Whilst I still doubt “Michael blamed Tom for Sonny's death” or anyone blamed anyone for Sonny's death but going by your views because Turnbull is a good man! – Extracts:

I'd give Tom a pass!! because all things considered....

Sure thing Turnbull ultimately and undoubtedly “Nothing changes the fact that Sonny dug his own grave through his uncontrollable temper”

Thanks Turnbull

Tom was a good lawyer but not in the consiglieri league even in 'peace' time but there were no other contenders!

Tom's "competence" was poor indeed and though Michael's "You're not a wartime consigliere" was in conjunction with Vito, the way it was delivered by Michael was in stark contrast to Vito's “I never thought you were a bad consiglieri....

Then Michael's curt dismissive “You're out, Tom” to Tom's “Maybe I could help”

“the number of times we see Michael being abrupt and harsh with Tom” poor Tom even humiliating Tom in front of Ola, Neri and Rocco - using and abusing Tom the “only one Michael could completely trust” Go figure!

At Carlo and Connie's wedding -
[This is also introducing the various characters to us the audience as well]

• Tom and Michael embrace
• Michael makes the introduction “My brother, Tom Hagen This is Kay Adams”
• Michael only offers further information after Kay asked “If he's your brother, why does he have a different name?”
• Michael goes on “Oh, ah, that -- when my brother Sonny was a kid, he found Tom Hagen in the street and he had no home so my father took him in and he's been with us ever since”
  It came across to me as a feel-good story, showing Michael's family benevolent helping the less fortunate, homeless Street kid [not even a Sicilian!] without any strings attached
• Michael goes on “He's a good lawyer not a Sicilian but I think he's gonna be consiglieri”
• Then Michael explains further after Kay asked “What's that?” "That's like a counsellor an advisor very important to the family”
  seemed to me with pride that even though Tom is not a Sicilian he is family and very important member

Besides at this time, the Corleones were flying high
Vito had not been shot, Sonny was alive, Carlo had not shown his true colours Only Happiness and Peace

So among others even ifThese were events down the track so really had no bearing on the wedding talk

This is actually a very revealing bit of dialog because it reflects that Michael was not in the Family business at that time--even said (after the bandleader story), "That's my family, Kay, it's not me." "He's a good lawyer" is Michael's opinion of Tom's professional qualities--Michael, the former and about-to-be returning college student at that point. "Not a Sicilian, but I think he's gonna be consigliere" is Michael, the family outsider, reflecting on a decision his father will make that has nothing to do with him.

He was even more wretched to Tom in the penultimate boathouse scene with Rocco and Neri.

But, he was being logical and truthful after the machine gun attack. Tom really was the only person he could completely trust at that point because, as he said, Fredo wasn't up to running the family in his absence, and he couldn't rule out Rocco and/or Neri at that point. He was also at his most manipulative with his "You're my brother, Tom..." Even more manipulative when he visited Pentangeli and convinced him to stick his head into the lion's mouth to meet with the Rosatos. What a bastard!

• Tom

Actually! -

Fish tank scene, in fairness to Michael, Michael did try to soften Tom being removed as the Consiglieri
but Tom wouldn't let it go!

I believe Clemenza, Tessio and Carlo had already left before the "You're not a wartime Consigliere" “You're out, Tom” dialogue not sure about Neri and Rocco?

Ola's visit scene [Anthony's party] Ola would have been smug thinking Michael would never see the dawn of another day! bedroom shooting

The penultimate boathouse scene with Rocco and Neri
Neri smirking and Michael humiliating Tom with Tom's mistress scoop! However Tom having a mistress would not have sat well with Michael

• Pentangeli

Indeed Pentangeli was hung out to dry by Michael


Did they have to die? and the honour of Omertà


It's not personal, Turnbull It's strictly business!

It was interesting “very revealing bit of dialog” but I wouldn't say it was a scoop! though because whoelse? could be the Consiglieri There were no other contenders!

Michael also knew about the band leader story then again that was no scoop either even Woltz had heard that story!

TB, that's where I disagree with you. Michael's comment to Kay that Tom is not a Sicilian is not Michael's appraisal of his father's impending Consigliere choice; rather, it's evidence of some resentment Michael directs toward Tom. That resentment is further emphasized by Michael's statement to Kay that "he's been with us ever since." That's quite a non-affectionate, non-familial statement about Tom that may very well have its roots in Michael's perception of Tom as an interloper, someone who absorbed much of Sonny's and his father's attention, interaction, and affection.

Another thing: if Michael could distance himself from his father, should we be surprised that Michael could resent Tom. Also, as you pointed out, the flashback scene further demonstrates Michael's resentment of some one who would try to manipulate his future.

Excellent points, Oli--I hadn't thought of them until now.

He distanced himself from the family business not from his father

That's my family, Kay It's not me. was immediately after the band leader story which was the distinctive separation, he was pinpointing

He has been away and would hardly be in a position to ascertain the relationship between Vito, Sonny and Tom

I reckon taking non-Sicilian Tom in, no strings attached showed the family as benevolent

he's been with us ever since showed the family ties on both sides Tom didn't leave after establishing himself and the family didn't want him to either

They embraced at the wedding They hugged before the Sollozzo shooting
He would have resented anyone who dared! to map out his future

Whatever happened down the track had no bearing on the wedding talk

Excellent points, Lana about the scenes I hadn't thought of them until now but still could have handled better away from an audience
No doubt Pentangeli was hung out to dry by Michael but he should have had more faith in his Don irrespective.....

This is the business they've chosen!

Tom never learns! Tom keeps giving Michael opportunities for Michael to hurt him

Roth's murder had been sorted Then Tom asks in front of Neri and Rocco
Tom asked in front of an audience – Rocco and Neri - So Michael had to handle it in front of the audience

So that leaves Ola's visit scene [Anthony's party] the only [unwarranted!] scene Michael was "harsh" to Tom

Did Sonny? He told him That's easy for you to say, Tom, he's not your father

...and then Tom said, "I'm as much a son to him as you or Mike"--and Sonny acknowledged it with a shrug.
What's curious about that scene is that Tom didn't include Fredo in his retort. Michael was estranged from the family at the time, and Tom included him as Vito's son. The novel tells us Fredo was the dutiful son--and he wasn't included..

It could just be that Fredo's not there, but Mike and Sonny are.

Interesting little twist, though. In the book the line is, "I was as good a son to him as you or Mike, maybe better." So he might be acknowledging that Freddy was even more obedient ("good boy") than Tom.

In the movie, that's changed to: "I'm as much a son to him as you or Mike." Maybe it's something that I've been slow to pick up, but I've recently noticed the parallel between young Vito and Tom, each finding protection under the roof of a family not his own. So there could be some emotional connection there, beyond Vito just taking pity on someone Sonny brought home.

How did you get your hands on this! We'd forgotten this gem

Do we infer Sonny didn't regard Tom as a brother
Poor Tom so wanting to be “regarded as a brother”

Sonny also said
Whilst Sonny apologised it showed what was deep inside

Thanks Pete for the parallel tidbit between the orphans, young Vito and Tom

Poor Fredo didn't get included in anything!

What would Vito have done? If...

Vito was invulnerable having beefed up his security after “his decision not to accept Sol's deal” and Sollozzo couldn't get to Vito

Michael had gone back to college

Fredo was well Fredo....

Connie in her abusive marriage with Carlo and Vito's inaction to Connie's plight

Sonny, Don in training, gets killed same scenario

Maybe misunderstanding the question: pre-war, Sonny was perceived as the Tattaglias' ally in setting up the drugs operation. If he was assassinated, I think that you would have to assume that the Tattaglias/Sollozzo had targeted the entire Corleone hierarchy, and act accordingly.

I reckon no different
He would have uprooted Michael and made him Don in training, take over the Corleone crime empire

I too tend to believe Vito “would have uprooted” - the clean Michael, a war hero who's never been busted for the rackets – to “take over the Corleone crime empire”

Vito playing weak! would have still planned all the dirty work - killing of Moe Greene, the baptism murders - for Michael “I never wanted this for you” son to carry out or perhaps Vito carries out the murders himself

The Corleones were in full strength with Clemenza, Rocco, Neri, Cicci and even Tessio all on board but Vito would still need a heir

Vito's “goal” of 'legitimacy' thus placing the impossible, unrealistic burden of Michael's “obsession” to become 'legitimate'

I am not sure about Carlo though
Would the always 'nice guy' Vito make his daughter Connie a widow even though “You [Carlo] have to answer for Santino”

Mr mustachepete could you, uh -- amplify your answer a bit? Thanks

How “Sonny was perceived as the Tattaglias' ally in setting up the drugs operation”

The Tattaglias/Sollozzo thought that Sonny, like themselves, was in favor of setting up the drugs operation. Again, perhaps I'm misunderstanding the original question.

I doubt Vito would have "uprooted" Michael.

First of all, in this scenario, Vito hasn't been shot, so he presumably would have more energy to continue to function as Don, and his enemies would have been less likely to view him as "slippin'."

Like Michael, Vito's long-term plan for the Family was legitimacy ("Senator Corleone...Governor Corleone"). He would not have abandoned his life's work by bringing Michael back for anything but the most dire of situations. I don't think that Sonny's assassination would have qualified, especially if Vito were still healthy.

Also, don't forget that Michael was pretty determined to go his own way until the shooting/hospital incident. Without those, I don't see him allowing himself to be uprooted by Vito. The more Vito would have tried to pull Michael in, the more Michael would have resisted. Ultimately, Vito couldn't have forced Michael to become his apprentice.

While it may be true, as Vito says in the novel, that "every man has but one destiny," and Michael's may well have been to become Don, I don't see it happening at that point under that scenario.

Good analysis Woltz. I concur.

Woltz, I agree with everything you posted. I'd like to take it a step farther:

I think if Vito'd had his way, Michael would have finished college and gotten a law degree. Then Michael would run for Congress--probably from an address of convenience in Vito's old neighborhood in Little Italy, where the Corleone name was still magic. He'd win easily. From there, it'd be "Senator Corleone...Governor Corleone..." Then Michael, using Vito's money and influence, would work to legalize gambling at either the national or state level, thereby achieving the legitimacy that Vito wanted.

Of course, all this would be contingent on Michael accepting Vito's guidance--a big "if," for the reasons you point out. But, Michael might have mellowed toward Vito over time, especially if he saw himself as helping to legitimize the family instead of becoming a Mafioso. I base that in part on that whole rationale he gave Kay when he was wooing her in New Hampshire ("My father is no different than other powerful men with responsibility for others..."), and partly because I think he developed a strong affinity for power.

Where was Sonny in Vito's plan? I think Sonny would be the head of an ever-diminishing "olive oil business," and providing strong-arm for his brother when needed. This might have led to an interesting sub-plot: Sonny (like Fredo), resentful about his diminished role vis-a-vis his younger brother, leading to conflict and possible violence.

Sure thing Turnbull “if Vito'd had his way, Michael would have finished college and gotten a law degree”
So would Michael!

Murder of the Top Mafia Boss' son and Vito is now left without a heir due to Sonny's assassination....What are Vito's options?

Thanks Pete for your take Sonny was hot for Sollozzo's deal indeed

Can't trump! that Woltz

My only debating points -
Wouldn't “Sonny's assassination” qualify as “most dire of situations” ie: Murder of the Top Mafia Boss' son and Vito is now left without a heir

Sure thing Woltz whilst “Michael was pretty determined to go his own way” the assassination of a member of his family his own brother would have fired Michael up?


Whilst Vito could “continue to function as Don, and his enemies would have been less likely to view him as "slippin'."

1. What happens when Vito could no longer to do so?
2. What are Vito's options?

Would Vito hand over “his life's work” to Clemenza and Tessio?

Vito needs an “apprentice” Don in training to “take over the Corleone crime empire”
So Michael spending however many years at College and then coming back to learn the family business....

Besides Vito is not Roth! Vito never thought “he's gonna live forever”!

Carlo live until Vito died
legitimacy the biggest problem

Michael come back from Sicily become his apprentice Sonny died same

options? finished college and gotten a law degree become his apprentice No college same
if not Michael who “take over the Corleone crime empire”

If you walk this question back into the novel, Vito had already decided as of Connie's wedding that Sonny was not suited to lead the crime organization. He had already decided that he had to find a new successor. So, Vito was without an heir whether Sonny lived or not.

To add another nuance from that scene in the novel:
After Connie's wedding, Paulie and Clemenza drive Kay back to her hotel. "He [Michael] had led her to believe that he was an alian in his father's world. Now Clemenza was assuring her, in his wheezing gutteral voice that the 'old man' thought Michael was the best of his sons, the one who would surely inherit the family business."

Michael obviously didn't tell that to Clem, so Vito must have--already deciding on his heir.

There's never been any indication this was filmed, has there? It could have been a very funny scene, Clemenza poking his round face up from the back seat.

Don't know if it was never filmed (thousands of feet of film were left on the cutting room floor, including one where Michael kills Fabrizzio with a lupara in his pizza joint), but it would have made an amusing addition to the movie.

I reckon even after the killings, Michael still could have finished college and gotten a law degree Vito still could have used the Corleone magic in Little Italy for lawyer Michael to run for congress but he chose to drag him into Mafia

He could never hand over “his life's work” to Clemenza and Tessio even after promising them they could form their own family


No doubt legitimacy was the biggest problem
It was Vito's “goal” So how do you figure Michael's long-term plan was legitimacy?

Vito and Tom have talked many times about Michael's future He didn't know of Pop's plans for ("Senator Corleone...Governor Corleone") until the garden scene

He was pretty determined to go his own way, away from the family business That's my family, Kay It's not me until the attempt on Vito's life So I reckon he would do the same when Sonny lost his life
Vito may not have to uproot him He would have volunteered like he did to kill Sollozzo and McCluskey

He told Kay about the bandleader's story
If Clemenza knew that the 'old man' thought Michael was the best of his sons, the one who would surely inherit the family business." what good a law degree would be for Mafioso Michael especially when time is of the essence

If he knew, hothead Sonny could have too leading to conflict and possible violence (like Fredo), even before anything happened

Mr mustachepete you are contradicting....!

From what we saw in the movie, among others -

• Vito to Tom in the Fish tank scene

Santino was a bad Don, rest in peace

• Vito to Michael in the Garden scene

I knew that Santino was going to have to go through all this

It seems to me even though Vito had misgivings that “Sonny was not suited to lead the crime organization” if Sonny had not been killed Sonny would be Vito's heir and would have become the Don

I am confused!

So which was Vito's plans for Michael?
Don Michael Corleone or "Senator Corleone...Governor Corleone..."

Michael seemed to be totally in the dark about neither plan

He was pretty determined to go his own way, murder attempt or murder Different Michael

Congressman or Mafioso
But I never -- I never wanted this for you Yeah, right

Vito doesn't blame Tom. He tells him "I never thought you were a bad consigliere."

Vito to Tom in the Fish tank scene
Santino was a bad Don, rest in peace.