"This war ends now"

Vito was in no condition to provide any help or advice to Sonny and Tom while he was in the hospital. And, when he returned home, he was still too weak to assist (he was barely able to whisper, "Where's Michael?"). But, he seemed to have recovered some of his strength by the time Sonny was assassinated because he was able to go downstairs to his office to get the bad news from Tom, and to get dressed and walk into Bonasera's mortuary that night. And, he didn't seem feeble or compromised at the Commission meeting, which probably was held not long after that.

My question: Do you think Vito was counseling Sonny and Tom, and even calling the shots, at some time between his return home and Sonny's death? And, if so, what do you think he was advising?

TB, I've always figured that only several months at most elapsed between Vito's return to the Mall and the Don' meeting. Could Vito have been advising Sonny and Tom? Could be. However, I doubt it. Why? Because Vito would never have countenanced Sonny's continued attacks against the other families and I doubt that Sonny would have disobeyed Vito.

As many of us experience when we are faced with a crisis, Vito reached deep down inside himself to collect all of his strength to do what was necessary to save his family and Michael. However, that effort drained him.

As Sonny said to Tom “Pop can't do nothin' til he's better” Then necessity because of Sonny's death

Besides Vito upset and angry it was Michael who killed Sollozzo and McCluskey may have believed or wanting to believe that Sonny with Tom had the business [if Vito still cared!] under control as well as can be, at least on the surface because among others -

• Sollozzo and McCluskey were dead
• Newspapers printing McCluskey being linked with Sollozzo in the drug rackets
• No other killings after Bruno Tattaglia
• things are starting to loosen up
• Fredo going to Las Vegas to learn the casino business under the protection of Don Francesco

Hence I think under the circumstances there was really no need for Vito to be “counseling Sonny and Tom” even if Vito was up to it After all they managed when Vito was in hospital and pulled off Sollozzo and McCluskey's murders

However if Vito was “counseling Sonny and Tom” Vito probably would have advised the same or similar as Tom did to Sonny –

• business especially the Corleone business needs to continue more so than the others because of the Corleones' own overheads
• The Corleones can't afford a stalemate!
• not to go after old pimp Tattaglia
• Let the smoke clear until the Corleones are in a position to 'negotiate'

I think that a lot of detail got lost in the movie because the whole course of the war was messed up in the novel. With respect to this question, Vito insisted on the war council being done in his presence so that he could exercise his veto (HA!). Sonny then embarked on his Reign of Terror, and Tom didn't appeal to Vito because the strategy seemed to be working. Obviously, if Vito was included on any level he should have known that his people were shooting every target they could find, and both Sonny and Tom were actively concealing that information from him.

So, in the movie I think that Coppola's answer was to chuck all of that: Vito was brought up to date when he got home, at most was lightly advised of any developments, and rallied his strength only when he heard strange goings-on in the night.

He had to rally his strength when Sonny died

I believe that Vito would be inclined to negotiate a truce sooner rather than later--war gets in the way of business. But, he was in no position to negotiate from his hospital bed or sick room, and he couldn't trust Sonny with such a sensitive task. On the other hand, Sonny was an excellent tactical warrior (the novel says he had "a genius for urban guerilla warfare"). And, since Sonny had fought the other families to a "stalemate" (the novel again), Vito could afford to let Sonny have his way with the war while he recovered and planned the family's next strategic moves.

So, I'm guessing, Sonny and Vito had an unspoken arrangement: Sonny would brief Vito from time to time on the progress of the war, Vito would say nothing, or simply nod.

I missed what Pete pointed out above: the novel states that Vito frequently held a war council and exercised a veto over proposed actions. Thus, Vito must have been aware of what Sonny was doing. As the novel further states, Sonny's war of attrition seemed to be working. So, I can only figure Vito must have approved Sonny's war actions. However, as TB points out, all of that seems to contradict what we know of Vito: he only resorted to violence when he had to. Well, TB may be right that Vito was just biding his time until he was well enough to negotiate and that negotiation would be from a position of strength based on Sonny's war of attrition.

However, if all of that is true, then why did Vito not foresee the Five Families plan to murder Sonny? We tend to blame Tom, but if Vito was as involved in the war as we speculate, then Vito should have seen it coming.

I don't think we see Vito again “Pop can't do nothin' til he's better” until Sonny's death

No doubt the Dons face death every day but reckon nobody saw it coming from Carlo
Tom ran after Sonny and did try to stop him before sending the buttonmen after him

Would they known of the public beating

In fairness to Vito and perhaps even Tom? they may not have known? about Sonny's public beating of Carlo However

Top 10 frequently asked questions
If anybody is to be blamed for Sonny's death it is Mama! for passing Connie's phone call onto Sonny

It will come as no surprise if Tom didn't know about Sonny's public beating of Carlo However even if he did nobody could have seen it coming from Carlo

Sonny said he wants him to rest Fredo is the one who says I'm going to learn -- the -- casino business Then Sonny unconvincingly yeah....

No wonder he thought he was on vacation banging cocktail waitresses two at a time!

Fredo comes back to Vito's room, didn't even get a glance from Vito but Fredo stays with Vito anyway

Sadly, it also showed not the first nor the last time, among others -
1. how Fredo doesn't even get an acknowledgement
2. how Fredo was treated by Vito following on Sonny, Michael even Mama
3. “And Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well --”

I started a thread a long time ago with the point that Sonny, who seemed long on brawn, short on brains, made a couple of smart strategic moves with Fredo and Vegas. First, Fredo obviously had a nervous breakdown when Vito was shot. He was useless to the family as a warrior, and a big liability if he were captured and either killed or held for ransom. Sonny arranging for him to be far out of the action, and under the protection of another (neutral) Don was a very smart move.

Second, as we learn later, the Corleones made a big investment in Moe Greene's hotel as part of the deal for Fredo to be protected and to learn the casino business. That was a strategic flag planted in the legal gambling business. And, when the bill came due for Moe, it became the basis of Michael's legitimate fortune in the gaming industry. Well done, Sonny!

TB, I agree. However, I've never maligned Sonny's intelligence though. On the other hand, I recognize Sonny's emotions as his personal pariah. Remember the scene when Tom tells Sonny that if they go after McCloskey all hell would break loose. Just a minute before Sonny was hell bent to murder Sollozzo and McCloskey. However, Tom appeals to Sonny's sense of logic and Sonny concedes to Tom.

How many times do any of us make decisions based on emotion instead of intelligence? Sonny just seemed to have more emotion than many of us, so that emotion impaired his intelligent action.

The Godfather Notebook, containing Coppola's annotations to the novel, says on the front cover* that the three boys are supposed be defined by passion, a "sweet nature," and intelligence, respectively. I think a lot of us have long thought something along those lines. I suspect the novel's Fredo represented the physical man, and they swapped that out for "sweetness" in the movie because of the awkwardness of portraying someone who's characterized by the absence of an inner life.

*All I've read is the front cover.

I've never thought about Sonny's intelligence before. As Oli says, an emotional nature doesn't necessarily make one dumb. But...

When they talk about drugs, Tom has a well-reasoned analysis about the benefits to the Family. Sonny just says, "There's a lot of money in that white powder."

Vito surely groomed Sonny for years, and we still get the disastrous outburst in the Sollozzo meeting. And the desire to kill Sollozzo without much thought about any other consequences. And his apparent lack of interest in all the business being done during Connie's wedding.

TB is right that sending Fredo away was a good move, but how do we know that was Sonny and not Tom?

I don't know Sonny's IQ but, if he had brains, he didn't seem too inclined to push them to their limits.

I reckon Sonny's &/or Tom's very smart move was to get rid of the useless and big liability Fredo pack him off to Vegas away from them and it becoming the basis of Michael's legitimate fortune in the gaming industry was a lucky by-product

He completely ignored him

I don't think that Fredo is generally ignored by Vito. Yes, there's one shot when Vito is bed-ridden, healing up his five bullet holes. But I think that from what we see of the hit on Vito is that Vito keeps Fredo with him, and may spend more waking time with Fredo than with anyone else. To carry it back to the novel, this is what Vito did with the young Santino - used him as a general attendant and driver so Sonny could see things close up and learn. Fredo, unfortunately, lacks the forcefulness to advance beyond this puppy stage and so remains Vito's gofer at 30.

One interesting detail about Fredo's role in the Family is contained in Clemenza's conversation with Sonny after the assassination attempt:

Sonny asks about how often Paulie called off sick and Clemenza says, "I asked Freddy if he wants me to get a different bodyguard and he said no."

That's the only time we see a capo defer to Fredo or Fredo being given authority to make a decision. Fredo's authority to select Vito's driver/bodyguard must have come straight from the Don, with disastrous consequences. (The Don was slippin'.)

Maybe that's why Vito is so dismissive of Fredo after returning to the hospital.

Correct Woltz. It should also be noted that the novel tells us that Fredo carried a gun. Because of that I assume that Fredo also guarded Vito. Now, the novel also states that Luca carried a gun and his license to do so had been extremely expensive. So, if Luca had such an expensive gun license, Fredo also had one, right? Why spend so much money on securing a gun license for Fredo if Fredo was viewed as a rather ineffectual soldier, Capo, or whatever?

It's true that Vito speaks in a deprecating way about Fredo, but only after Fredo goes to Las Vegas. Again, in the novel, Tom asks Vito if he should call Fredo back from Vegas (I forget why), but the Don sarcastically retorts that his wife can still fix our meals. On the other hand, when talking to some of the other Dons' at the Dons meeting, the novel states that Fredo had a genius for running a hotel and the Don spoke of it it with some degree of pride because it was an unanticipated type of genius in one of his children.

Puzo's writing was indeed confusing sometimes.

As far as I can recall, the only time we saw Fredo treated as an equal was Fredo's attendance at Sollozo's meeting

Fredo sitting on the curb, fumbling with his gun, crying “I can't -- I can't -- Papa!! after Vito was shot unable to even go to the wounded and fallen Vito's assistance [even if Fredo assumed Vito was dead] showed Fredo could never be Mafia let alone....

Why would Fredo carry a gun? I don't think Sonny did otherwise Sonny would have shot Carlo not just beat Carlo up!

Poor Fredo copped it from every one – Vito, Carmela, Sonny, Michael, Greene, Deanna

Whilst Fredo was not of Corleone calibre Fredo did himself no favours either
1. drunk at Carlo and Connie's wedding
2. banging cocktail waitresses two at a time
3. getting slapped around in public by Greene
4. keep taking sides against the family
5. lying to Michael
6. withholding information from Michael during the Senate hearing

7. marrying Deanna

Why would Fredo carry a gun?

So, what's your answer gonna be, Turnbull?

Why would Fredo carry a gun?

Probably so that he could drop it in one scene, thereby revealing character.

Again, though, there's a sort of a bleed-out from the novel. The Freddy character there is a gangster. There's no reason to think him a screwup or an outsider until he falls apart upon seeing his father gunned down. So the Freddy novel guy would have a gun.

What Pete said.

Thanks both only Fredo carrying a gun to revealing his character in that scene

. Good Question. They make it seem like Vito was in no condition to even counsel them so I always felt it was just Tom at that point leading up to his death

From the novel: "Dr. Kennedy had forbade any discussion of business in front of the Don. This edict was completely disregarded. The Don insisted on the council of war being held in his room.... Don Corleone was too weak to speak much but he wished to listen and exercise veto powers."