Sonny and Carlo fight

Wouldn’t there have been serious repercussions within the family because Sonny put his hands on a made man? He ultimately met his demise later on but do you think there were people within the Corleone family who were against Sonny touching another made man in that manner? Sonny had other men with him like Willie Cicci who must have been loyal to him at that time. We know it’s a hypocritical rule in itself but there people have been killed or at least almost killed over putting their hands on made men before.

I don't believe that Carlo was anything above an associate at best. Vito even told Tom to "give him a living" and not to discuss Family business with him. Vito distrusted him because he wasn't full blooded Sicilian and he only consented to his marriage to Connie on the condition that they have a traditional Sicilian wedding. Nobody in the Family had any respect for him,and certainly could care less about Sonny beating his brains out. He ran a small gambling business for the Corleones and he even screwed that up.

Thank you for so much insight. I read that Carlo’s family was from northern Italy and that’s why Vito didn’t trust him. Sonny obviously did since he was the one who introduced Carlo to his sister Connie. Southern Italians really stuck together against the northern Italians at that time. Especially the southern 3rd of the country. Places like Sicily, the lower half of Calabria and Apulia. Naples too but some of their natives weren’t as close with some of the people from regions further south.

FYI, Sicily is a separate country. It is the island just off the "toe" of the boot of Italy. No Italian would refer to himself as Sicilian,and vice-versa. I'm Northern Italian and when I was growing up, my Grandmother would warm me about playing with the Sicilian kids in our neighborhood. She would tell me that if I had an argument with one of them,all of them would attack me,even kids who didn't know the guy I had the beef with. There is no love lost between the two countries.

Sicily is not a country. They still answer to the Italian government. If you're Sicilian, you're Italian. You can be Italian and not be Sicilian.

blueracing, I stand corrected. I think that because In my experience,if I asked a Sicilian if they're Italian they would emphatically say NO! and most "Italians" I know would speak negatively about Sicily,which many of them referred to as "La Terra Bruciata" (the scorched earth). Just goes to show that even at my age,(mid 60's), I can still learn something. That's the beauty of this board.

blueracing, I stand corrected. I think that because In my experience,if I asked a Sicilian if they're Italian they would emphatically say NO! and most "Italians" I know would speak negatively about Sicily,which many of them referred to as "La Terra Bruciata" (the scorched earth). Just goes to show that even at my age,(mid 60's), I can still learn something. That's the beauty of this board.

Sorry about the duplicate post.

Nowhere does it say that Carlo was a made man. And, even if he were, it would have been considered a family matter, not subject to some Mob BS rule that probably wasn't enforced anyway. Besides, Sonny was acting Don--and who was going to say boo to him?

I think I guessed that he was a made guy due to Michael moving him up once he became boss. He must have been made sometime between Sonny’s murder and Michael becoming don. Or as you said, it was a family matter and Carlo had no respect.

It’s ok just an honest mistake. I think that regional mindset rings true with a lot of Italians. Not just Sicilians. I don’t think the southern Italians that I interacted with growing up in and out of my family were that different from one another whether they were from Sicily or not. I think there might be some minor differences between say a Sicilian and a Neapolitan but there is little to no difference between a Sicilian and a Calabrese. Especially if the person from Calabria is from any town close to Sicily.

I can’t speak for people living in Sicily but I know here in America I’ve met plenty of people with Sicilian heritage who refer to themselves as Italians.

Michael said, "You're going to be my right hand man in Nevada." The novel says Carlo grew up in Nevada. Doesn't necessarily mean he was made--doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't made.

But, you raise an interesting point: Was anybody in the Corleone Family actually made? No depiction or mention of an actual "making" ceremony is shown or mentioned in the film or in the novel. Vito became a Don by killing Fanucci, taking over his local rackets, and expanding them via the "olive oil business." Clem and Tess were his trusted associates. Sonny, Fredo and Michael were sons. Granted, the Trilogy is fiction. But, I doubt Puzo and Coppola would have passed up an opportunity to show a "making" ceremony if they thought it was necessary or even relevant to the story. About the closest we see is Clem kissing Michael's hand at the very end and saying, "Don Corleone." Nice dramatic touch, period.

As I mentioned earlier, there's no ironclad rule that I know of that says everyone in every Mafia family has to be made--depends on what the Don wants to do. I think that was especially true in the era when GF takes place.

Any insights about Rocco's status change, as fleshed out in the book? He was only in the family a couple years, was running some sort of rationing coupon operation during the war years. Would he have been part of the family then, or an associate? It seems clear that after killing Paulie he's to be part of the family with some sort kfiving.

Michael saying Carlo grew up in Nevada and moving him up once he became boss was a ploy keeping the enemies close
He was going to be whacked, he had to answer for Santino

Rocco's status changed after killing Paulie He became part of the family He was eating dinner with them before Sollozzo and McCluskey killings

I think it is fleshed out in the book Clemenza said something like he would be looked after once all these problems were taken care of by the family

All true. I infer (from the novel) that Clem's promised reward to Rocco was that he would be made after all the dust settled. That's why I found it surprising that, right after killing Paulie, he's eating Chinese food with Sonny, Clem, Tess and Michael. Pretty quick rise, don't you think? The late P. Lawrence and I used to go round and round about that. He questioned that it really was Rocco at that table--we went over the DVD frame by frame in that scene and he still wasn't convinced.

I think your last sentence is the most important and sums it up. It is very much about eras. Who knows if Luciano and some of the early american gangsters went through any kind of ceremony? There’s a good chance that some from the era of the 1920s-1950s did not. That is the main reason why I think Michael Franzese seems to say certain scenes and plot points from The Godfather(such as Tom being consigliere) and the sopranos(such as Tony talking to a therapist) are unrealistic to him. Because he was not a part of the mafia in those eras. While he sees Goodfellas and Gotti to be realistic because those both depict his era.