Tom and Fredo

It seems to me that Tom may have had a soft spot for Fredo--Michael uses Tom to contact Fredo after Havana, Tom tells Michael that "Fredo says he knows nothing, and I believe him." I also think that, with Sonny dead and Michael freezing Tom out, Tom might have bonded with Fredo as his "brother"---even as a fellow "outcast" from Michael.

Do you think Tom would have tried to stop Michael from having Fredo killed if he'd known that Michael had set it up with Neri to happen after Mama died? Or, would Tom have figured out that Michael would never have given Fredo a pass--and that he'd just have to accept it?

Tom knew Fredo was harmless and was basically set up by Roth. Plus Fredo was basically a brother to him. However by the end of the film Tom realized how psychotic mike had become so im sure he was careful not to say anything that might trigger him. Also Tom probably didnt think mike would actually stoop to that level

I've written for years in these Forums that Michael blamed Tom for the decline of the Corleones and Sonny's murder. He removed Tom as Consigliere and relegated him to just certain parts of the family business and to being simply his lawyer ... until he really needed him. Then he lied to him. He also accused Tom of trying to leave the family and of not supporting him.

So, Tom could have realized that Michael thought he was disposable. Nevertheless, he might have tried to convince Michael to leave Fredo alone. I don't know. That's a tough call.

My two cents worth!

Tom and Fredo, sentiments aside....

No doubt tough call

Tom is the intermediary So Michael uses Tom to contact Fredo after Havana does not seem to me that Tom may have had a soft spot for Fredo, definitely not after fully realising how dangerous Fredo was

Michael [and Vito] underestimated Fredo
Nobody not Michael, not even Vito had any inclination how detrimental Fredo would be, arguably even setting Michael up to be murdered, for the Donship

Tom may have preferred Fredo was spared but he was not above the Corleone ruthlessness himself including no qualms about the drug trade, Khartoum beheading, Tessio and Carlo murders

I doubt he might have tried to convince Michael to leave Fredo alone because I reckon Fredo will always be a threat and liability
No doubt Fredo's actions were continuously treacherous, his sort of deep resentment never goes away, always simmering underneath
Who wants to take on that sort of responsibility for someone like Fredo?

Anyway, I reckon Tom may have accepted, it was justified and continued to go along

He was not a wartime consigliere but even in what seemed routine matters, he was still no good, like licence for Tropigala, Geary's meeting should have been just a formality
Saying he always thought it would be Clemenza not Tessio, at Vito's funeral

Fredo made Tom look even more incompetent in not knowing about Pentangeli's survival, senate lawyer Questadt belongs to Roth resulting in Michael's perjury

Tom tells Michael "He says he doesn't know anything I believe him" Then Michael finds out from Fredo, who knew plenty including senate lawyer Questadt belongs to Roth

Tom craved, yearned to be thought of as Michael's real brother

It is difficult with Tom and Fredo as there is little interaction between them

Very insightful post, Evita. I agree with what you said. Especially how Fredo was underestimated. He was such an ineffectual dunce in GF that his betrayal of Michael in II had strong impact--we probably never would have guessed he had it in him...and what else he might have tried if Michael had given him a pass. Guilt and gratitude are the most fleeting of emotions.

In addition to Tom saying that "He [Fredo] says he knows nothing, and I believe him" when in fact Fredo knew that Quesdadt belonged to Roth: Tom didn't know that Pentangeli had survived and was being held by the FBI as a witness against Michael. Tom says: "Our people with the New York detectives say he was half dead, scared, talking out loud about how you betrayed him." If "our people" knew about Pentangeli, why didn't Tom know about him? Duh-h-h, Tom!

I also agree with Oli that Michael blamed Tom for Sonny's death. He says as much in the novel after learning about Sonny's death: "He knew now that he was no wartime consigliere. Old Genco would have smelled a rat."

Back to my original question: I don't believe Michael would have told Tom about his plan to have Fredo killed because it was between Michael and Neri. Telling Tom would have made him a potential witness against Michael at a time when Michael suspected Tom might leave the family. And, Tom had spent enough time around Michael to know that he'd never give Fredo a pass. Trying to intervene would have been futile, and would have worsened his relationship with Michael.

My take, for what it is worth!

Whilst Tom may or may not [tough call indeed] “have tried to stop Michael from having Fredo killed” my belief, it seemed to me, everyone believed Fredo had gotten a pass, no one figured out, with Mama Corleone's death his time was up

If anyone had any doubts it certainly looked like Michael had forgiven Fredo, the brothers hugging each other, at Mama's funeral

I too "reckon Tom may have accepted, it was justified and continued to go along" and "Trying to intervene would have been futile"

It did not seem to me “Michael blamed Tom for the decline of the Corleones and Sonny's murder”
Michael removed Tom as Consigliere as Vito himself said because of Vito's advice

Both Vito and Michael conceded, Tom was not a wartime Consigliere the reasons given when Tom was removed as Consigliere and “to being simply his lawyer”

• Things may get rough with the move the Corleones were trying
• There are reasons why Tom must have no part in what is going to happen

I reckon Michael's treatment of Tom may have stemmed from Michael having to do Don, Consigliere and other parts of family business that were not relegated to Tom... until he really needed him"

Michael was exasperated, frustrated having to spell everything out to Tom "even in what seemed routine matters, Tom was still no good" trying to get straight answers from him and informing Tom of things that Tom should have known [should be the other way around] eg: Roth seeking refuge in various countries

Tom seemed clueless "Duh-h-h, Tom!"


How Vito and Micheal still underestimated Fredo even after Fredo taking sides with Moe Greene against the family?

Surely Michael would have told Vito of Las Vegas Greene incident
Also adding insult to injury Fredo was blindsided - clueless "Don is semi-retired and Mike is in charge of the Family business now"

Thank you Turnbull

For clarity!

Michael would never have told Tom about his plan to have Fredo killed, it was strictly between Michael and Neri
He would have been chuffed and triumphant he was the chosen one for the job

Tom had spent enough time around Michael to know that he'd never give Fredo a pass - Not quite?
I believe Fredo was going to be spared until his boathouse outburst

Tom who did not see Fredo's boathouse outburst, I reckon believed Fredo had gotten a pass, as did everyone

Tom may have accepted, it was justified and continued to go along after the killing Nobody outside Michael and Neri, knew

I don't believe “Michael blamed Tom for the decline of the Corleones and Sonny's murder”

Michael's comment to Kay at Connie's wedding "He's a good lawyer. Not a Sicilian but I think he's gonna be consiglieri" was long before Vito getting shot, Sonny's murder

If not for Michael, Vito would have been killed by Sollozzo, with Police Captain McCluskey "definitely on Sollozzo's payroll and for big money as his bodyguard" letting it happen

Tom seemed clueless It was his sheer incompetence "Duh-h-h, Tom!"

Fredo so dangerous and detrimental, no doubt never would have guessed he had it in him not even well-versed Godfather scholars of this board!

Mike was a ruthless SOB so I doubt he was gonna give fredo or anyone a pass no matter what. Also Tom wasnt incompetent, he saved mikes ass quite a few times

Very insightful posts, Evita


and Geary compromise Pentangeli suicide


and Roth's murder "Mike that's impossible"


"Fredo, come with me - Fredo -- you're still my brother Fredo, Fredo" Says it all


"Pop had Genco -- look what I got!"

I should have been doing my posts with Quote boxes, sorry, to clearly show whose comments I am referencing and responding to
It would be good for the board!

Michael was Tom's one and only client Duh-h-h, Tom!

When Tom was walking towards the Boathouse after the brothers hugging at Mama's funeral, Tom looks at Fredo who was showing his Hail Mary fishing techniques to Anthony, Tom must have been thinking, Fredo, you lucky duck! getting a pass or Don't go fishing with Neri!

I think with that shot, Coppola is telling the audience that Fredo is the real subject of the conversation that follows. When Michael says he has to wipe out his enemies, he's talking about Fredo. When he talks about "these things I have to do," he's talking about killing Fredo. Unlike in the first movie, Michael fidgets with his cigarette lighter, so it's not just "business" this time. He maneuvers Tom into pledging loyalty, and Tom obliviously asks, "Now what is it that you want me to do?" The next shot is of Fredo.

Pete, I think you're right. I never thought of "these things" in that way. Thus, Michael anonymizes his intention to murder Fredo in order to remove the appalling sting of fratricide from his mind.

The brothers hugging and everyone believed Michael had forgiven him Connie took Anthony off the boat not suspecting it was Fredo's last fishing trip even with Neri on board

I will have to watch that scene again but as I remember, he was eating an orange He was not smoking and I don't remember Michael fidgeting with his cigarette lighter but possible

I reckon what Michael wanted Tom to do was Pentangeli's suicide

Good points Pete the “wipe out his enemies” scene was indeed sandwiched immediately before and after shots of Fredo's fishing lessons to Anthony

My take, for what it is worth!

As regards Tom's loyalty, my view, Michael never has to “maneuver Tom into pledging [his] loyalty” at all
Tom's loyalty was a given, beyond reproach irrespective of what Michael did or didn't do and which Michael certainly took for granted too

If I had not misunderstood! your analysis....
I am confused! Why? “Coppola [needed to tell] the audience that Fredo is the real subject of the conversation” whether “Tom was oblivious” or not
Besides Tom, undoubtedly has no say whatsoever in Fredo's fate

We, the audience already know Fredo's time was up with Mama's death, Fredo's fate already sealed, having witnessed the following -

Michael to Fredo
Michael to Neri
Michael's chilling kill order look at Neri and Neri's subtle nod, at Mama's funeral

I always thought that Neri,while a loyal soldier who didn't question orders,was disappointed in Mike when he gave the nod.
It looks like Neri's thinking,"I wish I didn't have to do this,but it's not my call".
My take is that he thought maybe Mike had mellowed a little and decided to forgive Fredo,only to find quite the opposite.
Also,I think Neri genuinely liked Fredo,and knew he was "dumb,like everyone says" and that Mike killing him was petty and vindictive.

Lou, I also noticed what I thought was a look of regret on Neri's face when Michael, after Fredo's boadhouse outburst, said, "I don't want anything to happen to him while my mother is alive."

TB, I agree about Neri's look. However, the insidious of Michael's actions is highlighted by what was probably an appreciable period of between Michael's words to Neri and Fredo's murder. It's insidious because Michael had plenty of time to reconsider his proposed action. Still, he murdered Fredo. Perhaps Kay's words to him about a divorce, etc. solidified his belief that he was besieged and needed to act resolutely.

Neri feel twinge but he is a cold killer Boss say push a button he push a button He killed the prostitute for Geary compromise gunned down Barzini and his people