Michael's choices

Some on these boards believe Michael is a tragic figure. They're not wrong. But, nearly all the tragedy was self-inflicted. Michael had free choice at every turn, and he freely chose the Mob life, with disastrous results:

First: He was right to think Sollozzo would try to kill his father after the failed hospital attempt. He was wrong to believe that only he could save his father by killing Sollozzo and McCluskey. Ironically, an idea that Michael himself had suggested could have been modified to solve the problem bloodlessly. The Corleones could have fed the newspapermen on their payroll the story about McCluskey being a dishonest cop mixed up in drugs and murder before, not after, the trigger was pulled. McCluskey was on the take all his life, and the Corleones had all the details because they paid him. The newspapers would have given that story such headlines that the Police Commissioner would have been shamed into providing Vito with an army to protect him, to save further embarrassment. McCluskey and Sollozzo would have been neutralized without any bloodshed. At minimum, McCluskey would have been transferred or suspended pending investigation. With pressure from the Corleone judges, he’d have been indicted for taking bribes. Police would have hunted down Sollozzo and killed him "while trying to escape," to prevent him from testifying against Mac. With Mac alive, the cops would have had no reason to crack down on all Mob activities. There would have been no Five Families War of 1946, leaving the Corleones free to exact vengeance on Tattaglia. Michael could have married Kay and gone back to college.

Instead, Michael chose to kill Sol and Mac, setting in motion his abandonment of Kay, his Sicilian exile, the Five Families War, Carlo’s betrayal, Sonny’s murder, Apollonia’s murder.

Second: He could have resumed the legitimate life after returning from Sicily. He could have said to Vito: “Pop, I was wrong to distance myself from you. But I atoned: I saved your life. And I paid a heavy price: two murders, abandoned my beloved fiancée, lost months out of my life in Sicily, lost my beloved bride to a bomb intended for me. We’re quits. Oh, not feeling well enough to take the reins? Fredo not equal to the task? Sorry, Pop, that’s not my problem. Besides, you always said you didn’t want this for me—you wanted me to be a pezzanovante. Well, I can’t be Senator Corleone or Governor Corleone if I’m Don Corleone. Why don't you retire and give the family over to Tessio and Clemenza."

Instead, Michael chose to be the new Don, setting in motion Tessio’s betrayal, the Great Massacre of 1955, Connie’s widowhood and breakdown, and the beginning of Kay’s disillusionment with him.

Third: After moving to Tahoe, Michael could have retired behind the walls of his compound and invested his wealth legitimately—even putting money up-front in the legal casinos of Nevada.

Instead, he chose to hide his ownership or controlling interest in three hotels; muscle Klingman out of his interest in a fourth hotel; dominate the New York mob scene through Frankie Pentangeli; undercut Pentangeli through his support of the Rosato Brothers and their drug-dealing; and plan for a huge international expansion of his gambling empire through his deal with Roth. Results: Fredo’s betrayal; the machinegun attack that nearly killed Kay in her bed; Kay’s estrangement, abortion and divorce; Anthony’s estrangement; Fredo’s murder (and a host of other killings).

Fourth: he was “legitimate” in GFIII—but was he? He whines, “Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.” But he was never out. He was still a member of the Commission and influential enough to keep Zasa from rising (so Vincent tells us). He laundered his Mob cronies’ money through his “legitimate” businesses (maybe through his foundations) and cut Zasa out of his share.

Result: the machinegun attack in Atlantic City that killed all his pals and precipitated his diabetic stroke. It wasn’t enough that he became a Papal Knight: he had to dominate International Immobiliare by bribing crooked-as-a-corkscrew Archbishop Gilday, setting in motion Altobello’s betrayal and putting him against Don Lucchese, who was far more powerful in Europe. And, in an act of supreme irresponsibility and egotism: told that Sicily’s top assassin—“a man who never fails”—has targeted him, Michael gathers his entire family around him in Sicily, making them all sitting ducks. Surprise, surprise: his beloved Mary gets killed and his budding reconciliation with Kay is nipped in the bud, leading to his own, lonely death, attended by a little dog.

Michael succeeded--in turning everything he touched into death, including his own.

He had to appease Sonny as well as resolve the issue in that particular instance. He still had to choose to insinuate himself into the plan, however, so your point still stands. I don't think Sonny would have accepted a bloodless plan. Perhaps Michael wouldn't have either, but at that point he may have been more willing to listen to Tom Hagen.

But yes, Michael sowed the seeds of his own destruction, and as the saying goes, pride comes before the fall. He thought he was too smart, too clever, too rich, too powerful to be have anyone out fox him.

I basically agree with this. One area I'm doubtful is on the Sollozzo-McCluskey hit. I think it would be much more risky to release information implicating Sollozzo while he was still alive and had allies, but the allies wouldn't care so much after he was dead.



I was flipping pages of the book recently, and came upon Michael thinking at Vito's funeral, "...if I can die saying, 'Life is so beautiful,' then nothing else is important." I was wondering if maybe that line inspired the shot that ends the Trilogy.

I also agree basically; any Mafioso makes a decision to embroil himself in that life. As TB points out, Michael made that decision several times.

Pete, I think you're onto something. Vito did his best ("his", in that life he chose) to take care of his family while Michael destroyed it.

Like mustachepete, my biggest opposition to your theory is in regards to your first instance - the McClusky/Sollozzo hit.

I don't see the police commish being shamed into helping Vito. Not to say no action would be taken against McCluskey but that would not turn Vito into a sympathetic figure. He was a criminal, and that was that in the black-and-white world of law enforcement. There was nothing that could be done that would allow the Corleones to benefit from the police.

As to your other main point, while McCluskey could be disciplined/shamed into becoming a non-factor, Sollozzo would have merely found another time and manner in which to strike, one that would likely be effective, as he was both intelligent and driven. He would not have been deterred by anything other than death.

I do think your other openings are more plausible, but by then, Michael had not only become a killer but witnesses the killing of the true love of his life, which hardened him to the point of no return, hence the choices he made from that point forward.

This discussion raises a broader question: Why did Michael make the choices that he did?

In the novel, Vito says, "A man has but one destiny." Was Michael destined to be a criminal? You can argue that Michael's decision to kill Sol and Mac was motivated by saving his father's life, not the beginning of a plan for Michael to succeed Vito. But then there's his statement at Vito's bedside: "I'm with you now, Pop," which many here interpret as a commitment by Michael to be part of the family criminal enterprise.

I think the key to Michael's attitude is found in the scene where he's wooing Kay in New Hampshire. He says his father "is no different than any other powerful man with responsibility for others"; and when Kay replies that senators and governors don't have people killed, he answers: "Now who's being naïve?" He not only wants to be the top crime boss, he wants to consider himself "legitimate," and in the same league as senators, governors and other "legitimate" people simply because he thinks he isn't doing anything different from what they do. He thinks he's entitled to be considered legitimate.

There's the difference between Vito and Michael. Vito, who saw his father, brother and mother killed with impunity by a more powerful man, wanted power to keep himself secure, and to be strong enough not to be "a puppet on a string pulled by the pezzanovanti." His idea of legitimacy was to run his world as he saw fit, and to dispense "justice" and "order" to his suppliants. He never deluded himself by thinking he could be considered "legitimate" like the politicians he controlled--he simply used them toward his own ends. He aspired for Michael to be "legitimate" by becoming one of them--a senator or governor.

Michael never understood that he could never achieve real legitimacy as a crime boss while posing as a respectable businessman. He never saw that the "legitimate" people he associated with would never consider him one of them because their "legitimacy" would be tarnished by his overt criminality. He was clever, resourceful, at times brilliant, in pursuing his goal. But he never got it--he constantly won battles and lost wars because he never understood that he couldn't be a top Mafia boss and a "legitimate" businessman at the same time. That's the real tragedy in Michael's life.

I think that Michael was destined to be a leader. That's a very perilous position in this story, because he's so close to this crime family that's inherently unstable - anything that knocks it out of balance potentially will suck him in and move him to the top. I think that what Vito's trying to do is combine Sonny and Tom into a team that would provide that leadership that otherwise could only be provided by Michael alone.



Yes. And if we extend into the book, there are also several places where Michael draws comparisons between the mob war and his military experiences. It could be that enlisting in the Marines, far from being a rejection of the Family, was just an alternative form of leadership training.

Good point Pete. As the novel states, Michael was pretty smart although not as smart as his father. His military service was good evidence of his leadership skills.

Destiny is simply hind-sight;it's after the fact. To me, Michael was placed in a leadership position by Vito and felt comfortable with it. What followed is what one could expect in that kind of business.

Sort of like in the Sopranos when Tony tries to golf with a couple civilians only to find out that they only brought him along as a sort of novelty, a flirtation with the dangerous life of a mobster.

TB, Michael's desired legitimacy would be much more than tarnished by his criminality. Who didn't know he was a criminal, a Mafia don at that? I don't see how he could ever entertain the fantasy of achieving legitimacy. Joe Colombo tried it a version of it, but who was buying it really?

But, of course, we've opined on this Board about Michael's (and Vito's) concept of legitimacy and how it differed from what most of us conceive of as legitimacy.

I think that the press would have been wary of publishing anything about McCluskey while he was still alive.

Great OP Turnbull.

I have often wanted to write such a piece to bring Michael to account for his actions.

Let me first say that you could argue that Michael's eventual descent into mob life could be blamed on either Sonny or Vito

Vito for being too pig-headed to enter into Narcotics with Sollozzo, and Sonny for directly contradicting his father in the meeting giving Sollozzo the impetus to assasinate Vito and get Sonny go into business with him (which was a ludicrous idea knowing how devoted Sonny is to his father)..but these two events set the wheels in motion for ALL that follows.

But if you take it from the point when Mike decides to kill Sollozzo and McCluskey then some great points are raised here, though I do have to defend him on a couple of points

Michael did have to kill Sollozzo, as was said earlier in the film, he was considered a 'civilian' and not a danger to anyone, so Sollozzo had seemingly nothing to fear from Michael meaning he'd come out of hiding and sit down in a public place to meet him. No-one else could achieve that, plus the fact that Sollozzo requested Michael personally, no-one else could have been sent in his place, and had he not gone to this meeting, an insulted Sollozzo may have tried to hit Vito again.

Now whether Mike needed to kill McCluskey is another matter, if Mike just shot Sollozzo and then fled, they could have fed the story that McCluskey was on the take, and presumably, eyewitnesses would testify to McCluskey having dinner with a known criminal and crime-boss' son. That would be enough to see McCluskey done for corruption and a spell behind bars...but one snag, McCluskey broke Mike's jaw...that's the sole reason he killed McCluskey in my view.

I'll come onto some more points later - back to work for me.

In the novel, Sonny flat-out admits that "I shot my mouth off," and thus takes responsibility for Vito's shooting. But that's where Solozzo made a big mistake:

Sol, seeing that Sonny was hot for the deal at the meeting, figured that Sonny would still go for it with Vito either dead or incapacitated. But, Sonny could never have made the deal precisely because he showed himself hot for the deal. If he had gone for the deal, Clem, Tess and probably a lot of the men under them would have thought Sonny was a traitor to his father, and that he might even have welcomed Sol's getting his father out of the way. (N.B.: The novel says Sonny was anxious "to get out from under his father's thumb," and saw the drugs business as a way to get his own action.) Sonny could never have functioned as acting Don, or permanent Don, with that cloud over his head.

Mmm,true. In the book and the film, Sonny takes his father's shooting personally, he'd have never dealt with Sollozzo and would have sooner died first. That's not to say he wouldn't have gotten involved in the drugs business as the incumbent Don, just not with Sollozzo

Maybe, maybe not.

Sollozzo was not unaware of Sonny's situation. He was counting on Tom to both calm Sonny down and convince the others that the Sollozzo deal was "the right thing to do."

Really, the deal made a lot of sense. I think it's plausible that the Corleone Family would have gone along with it eventually. Maybe Sonny would have been deposed or there would have been some turmoil for a while, but that really didn't matter to Sollozzo.

Stretching the topic a little, did Vito's prediction about drugs come true? Well, obviously, the Mafia is still up and running. However, has its involvement in drugs injured it in America?

IMO, the long term trend in American Mafia has been the transition from Cosa Nostra to Cosa Mia. A big part of it is drugs: defiance by guys on the street of the Dons' "ban" on drug-dealing, and their selling out of higher ups when caught in return for shorter sentences. I don't think drugs, by themselves, have been the ruination of the Mob as Vito predicted. But they did contribute strongly to the Mob's decline.

Do you think the real life Don's banned drugs because Vito told them to?

Mafia has been dealing drugs since Day One. But, heavy penalties for drug dealers presents a dilemma for real Dons. On the one hand, a Mob guy caught dealing drugs and sentenced to double-digits is tempted to rat out higher-ups (per Solozzo to Vito). On the other hand, Mafia is a pyramid scheme, with a portion of each associate's or made-man's earnings kicked upstairs. If the Dons really enforced a ban on drugs, they'd be driving the traffic (and the profits) underground.

So they reacted with typical Mafia hypocrisy: They decreed death for anyone in the Borgata caught dealing drugs. If you were caught, they'd turn heaven and earth to kill you before you could testify against them. If you weren't caught, and kicked good money upstairs, well...what the Dons didn't know wouldn't hurt them.

But the whole "going legitimate" plan was one that Michael and Vito cooked up. It wasn't just Michael coming up with plans after Vito's death, the last conversation they have before Vito dies is about planning for how things are going to go down after Vito's death.

At the end of the conversation Vito does express some regret at dragging Michael into the business, but then I'm mindful of the birthday party scene in Part II, where Michael announces he's joined the army, and where Tom tells Michael that Vito and Tom have been talking about Michael's future. I think it's pretty clear that Vito's original plan, before Michael joined the Army and the whole Sollozzo mess and Sonny's assassination, was for Michael to take a legitimate course that would end up with him in a high political office (Senator Corleone... Governor Corleone), but as Vito himself says "There wasn't enough time".

I imagine Vito's original plan was for Sonny and Tom to run the "business", while Michael would split off and become the legitimate side of the Corleones (with a lot of quiet support from Vito and his political and union contacts).

It's largely what Michael was trying to do by Part 3; where Mary is essentially in the same position he was as a young man, destined to legitimize the Corleones, while Vincent, like his father before him, was supposed to take charge of the business.

I believe that if Vito had had his way, Michael would have finished law school and run for Congress in Vito's old Little Italy neighborhood, where the Corleone name was still magic. Vito would have channeled his labor support to Michael, who could have shared it with Congressmen who'd support him. Then, "Senator Corleone, Governor Corleone." He'd work to legalize gambling--if not nationwide, than in New York. The Corleone gaming interests would be used to dominate legal gaming. Sonny would be in charge of a decreasingly important traditional Corleone "olive oil business."

If that's how it would have turned out, it would have made an interesting subplot: rivalry between Michael and Sonny for the entire Corleone interest--legit and non-legit--perhaps leading to violence.

Pretty good prognostication TB. However, I don't think Vito would have supported gaming legalization. As we both have posted before, Vito's perception of legitimate is different from ours, so he would have used Michael's political position to advance his criminal empire.

Toad Brother, Turnbull and others, all very good points. I know that we are talking the movie version here. However I would like to add to this by bringing up the point that in the novel there is a part which indicates that Vito realizes that;

1) Sonny is too much of a hot head to run the family business.
2)Fredo, well you know, is not 'smaaaht' enough to do so.
3)Tom being a lawyer and a non Sicilian could not be given that role.

Which he realizes leaves only Michael to be the most likely and qualified heir to the throne. In realizing this Vito probably did not want Michael to lead the illegitimate life that Vito was basically forced to choose, so he began to plan to have Michael go to law school and peruse a career in politics so that, as you correctly said Turnbull, he could legitimize the Corleone empire.

But it was Sonny's small outburst that caused everything to change for Vito and his plan for Michael to take the legitimate path on behalf of the Corleone family.

My take, for what it is worth!

I believe Michael had little or no choice in taking over the business because it seems the Corleones needed to re-establish their glory, standing, reputation etc. that they are smart not weak and crumbling like everyone says, that's ain't the way they wanted it! especially Vito?

Pretty much Tiger by the tail for Michael

Among others,

1. Vito survived two attempts on his life
2. Sonny has been brutally massacred
3. Apollonia car bombed, meant for Michael
4. The Corleones were being trampled by the other families
5. Fredo Corleone was being slapped and straightened out in public by Moe Greene
6. Greene openly insulted Michael that the Corleones were being run out of New York and he'd been talking to Barzini
7. Barzini's people were chiselling into Tessio's territory and pretty soon there won't be one place in Brooklyn, Tessio can hang his hat!
8. Vito always playing the nice guy He even tells Carlo, Vito was happy for him [right hand man to Michael] knowing Carlo was going to be murdered
9. Vito's “And Fredo....well, Fredo was....well” not giving Fredo at least a face saving role in the family
10. Neither Vito nor Michael had any inkling what a time bomb Fredo was
11. Vito could have cut their losses and handed the business over to Clemenza and Tessio thus giving Michael a second chance for a non criminal life
12. Vito though never wanted the criminal life for Michael indeed left a murderous legacy
13. Vito and Michael's unrealistic expectation that their criminal business could be made legitimate let alone in five years
14. Neither Vito nor Michael realised how extremely difficult and elusive the legitimacy would be
15. Michael as a powerful man was responsible for other people – his capos etc.
16. I suppose Michel had to keep his caporegime going Otherwise he'd be just another casino owner and could be moved out like the Corleones did with Klingman

How was it that Kay was happy to enjoy the spoils of the unholy and evil Sicilian thing for five years, the time frame for legitimacy

In fairness to Kay,
1. The bedroom shooting would have spooked and unnerved anyone
2. At the senate hearing, judging from Kay's reaction in the background, she probably figured out – made the connection when Michael suddenly disappeared - that Michael was personally responsible for the murder of McCluskey and Sollozzo

It seems Michael and Kay's marriage was already in trouble as evident from Michael's talk with Mama Corleone about losing the family

It was surreal when Michael returned home from Cuba, Kay was at the sewing machine but knew Michael was back, had nothing to say to each other especially after such traumatic events

The way Michael protected Kay during the bedroom shooting was indeed incredible

Perhaps Michael could [should] have handled differently

1. Killing his own brother Fredo
2. Michael not comforting his wife who just had a miscarriage
3. Perhaps if Michael had the same “losing the family” talk with Kay......second chance at their marriage
4. The treatment of Tom the only person Michael could trust even though Tom was not the most competent consigliere!
5. Hanging Frankie Pentangeli out to dry
6. Not taking care of the 'dead' capo Frankie's family

I don't think that Kay is just a passive party here - she likes that Michael is the alpha male and that she's the one sleeping he's sleeping with. You always have to go back to the bandleader story - she likes that excitement.



As the novel implies, Kay had made the connection herself (or had it made by the police), and then let Michael talk her out of it. I think any reaction in the hearing is more "...they're going back to that?" than "I can't believe that was him."

Fair enough! I thought Kay was shocked......

Then, wonder
1. why does Michael's world suddenly become unholy and evil?
2. why wouldn't Kay bring another one of Michael's sons into this [unholy and evil] world?
3. Why was Kay leaving Michael?
4. what is the real reason?

I'm just speculating: one thing that's happened for Kay is that she's been publicly exposed as part of this thing. We speculate sometimes that one of Roth's motives is to claw at Michael's public image, and reduce his support in the legitimate world. Kay just received a big dose of that herself by sitting behind Michael on TV, and inside she may be absolutely furious that she can't go to Tahoe social functions anymore without people laughing at her.

It wasn't sudden. Kay had been stewing about Michael's lies for a long time. When they danced at Anthony's party she reminded him that he'd said that the Corleone Family would be completely legitimate in five years--"That was seven years ago." AFter the Tahoe shooting, when she was clutching Mary, she gave him a look that said she was finished with his way of life. And, when he returned from Havana, she didn't even look up from her sewing machine.

Exactly TB. As you state, I reiterate: there was nothing sudden about her decision. Of course, the novel's final pages are more explicit as is the last deleted scene of her in church about her evolving feelings and realization about her husband.

If the movies are played near you, I recommend going to see. Both 1 and 2 are playing near me next week and I plan on going - again. On a movie screen you can see the slit throat on one of the Tahoe shooters, Will have to look again at the 2nd one.
I can't see how Rocco would have camouflaged his gun standing that close to the cops and feds when they heard the shot right next, in front of or beside them, he's lucky he got as far as he did hopping away on his bad knee.
Neri probably still had some favors owed him from his former job and got info from them. He was gotten out of jail on a murder rap by the family, of course he's gonna be loyal. If you look as his face when Mike gives him the order about Fredo on the boathouse, he's upset. I think despite everything else he likes Fredo and at the funeral scene, when Mike is " forgiving" Fredo, Mike looks up at Neri and Neri has a very somber look on his face and gives a very subtle nod. Almost as if so say ' I don't want to do this, but, I have to do this.'
Also when Fredo first walks into the funeral scene, he walks up to Neri and says " Hi, Al." it looks like Neri says something to him, but it's edited out, Neri has a look like, Sorry you came Fredo. Neri then walks up to the casket and I take it as him apologizing to Momma for having to whack Fredo.

Hmmm...interesting. I'll have to take another look at that scene.

“If you look as Neri's face when Mike gives him the order about Fredo on the boathouse, he's upset.
I think despite everything else he likes Fredo and at the funeral scene, when Mike is " forgiving" Fredo, Mike looks up at Neri and Neri has a very somber look on his face and gives a very subtle nod. Almost as if so say ' I don't want to do this, but, I have to do this”

So true It broke Michael's heart too And left a chain of broken hearts
“I killed....I ordered the death of my brother. He injured me. I killed my mother’s son. I killed my father's son”

“Also when Fredo first walks into the funeral scene, he walks up to Neri and says " Hi, Al."
it looks like Neri says something to him, but it's edited out, Neri has a look like, Sorry you came Fredo”

If my memory serves me right,
Neri gives a stricken look knowing Fredo's time was up [sorry Mama died] but I don't seem to recall Neri saying anything to Fredo? Definitely warrants another look at that scene!

“Neri then walks up to the casket and I take it as him apologizing to Momma for having to whack Fredo”

This is very astute observation Something new to look for, at next watch!

Rocco could have camouflaged his gun, say, perhaps in his pocket and even shot Roth through the pocket or something considering Rocco was so close to Roth? Anything but the way Roth's killing was done!

And thanks Guiseppe Petri

“Kay may be absolutely furious that she can't go to Tahoe social functions anymore without people laughing at her”

No kidding! Pete, Are you pulling my leg?!

Michael's public image was not tarnished
In fact he was exonerated, without a blemish, no proof linking him to any criminal conspiracy
Michael's lawyer, Tom was even demanding an apology from the senate committee!

Kay's that look was indeed looking daggers at Michael Well their bedroom had just been machine gun sprayed......

Michael and Kay, when they were dancing at Anthony's party, seemed quite loving in spite of Kay's legitimacy gripe and Michael's reassurance that he was trying
They spoke lovingly about the baby feeling like a boy
Kay was already in bed. Michael sees the drawing Anthony left for him on his pillow, reaches over and strokes Kay's cheek

Whilst Kay didn't even look up from her sewing machine when Michael returned from Havana [was Kay aware Michael was actually home?] Michael also didn't even bother to enter the room to comfort his wife who just had a miscarriage? That was troubling indeed

And Kay did attend the senate hearing every time like a dutiful wife, sitting by Michael's side and the next scene Kay is leaving Michael?

Kay not bringing another one of Michael's sons into this world, changes little or nothing regarding "this must all end" as they already had a son

“Kay was finished with Michael's way of life” but still leaves her children behind in that way of life

You are right! Neri does walk up to the casket and spends a few seconds 'looking' at Mama

Just when we thought we were out of new things, you pull us back in, with this gem!

Just enough time to "say" something like' momma, I'm sorry, but, I have to whck freddy, you know I like him, but I have to do it'.

I don't know about that. Just because you aren't proven guilty doesn't mean that your public image is not tarnished. Ask OJ Simpson about that.

Michael has been very publicly linked to organized crime, and only got off after the star witness against him recanted sworn testimony after Michael brings his brother to the hearing.

I'm sure Michael looked guilty in the court of public opinion.



Kay couldn't do anything about the existing son. But, if you listen to the argument they have in the hotel room, it's largely over concerns about how Anthony is turning out. This is foreshadowed in a deleted scene from the party, when a concerned Kay sees Anthony hanging out with some of the buttonmen.



But it is revealed in GFIII that she did successfully extricate her children from "that way of life." It's not like she got out and never looked back. Clearly, she continued to work on behalf of the children and saved Anthony, even if she couldn't quite save Mary.

Thanks Woltz. Some interpretations are hugely inaccurate. For one, Kay did not leave the kids with Michael. As you point out Woltz, in the hotel scene Michael very clearly and aggressively tells Kay "Do you expect me to let you take my children from me? Don't you know me? Don't you know that that's an impossibility -- that that could never happen."

In III, Michael's reputation is clearly impugned. Reporters ask "What about Mr. Corleone’s connections with Las Vegas gambling?" "What about his involvements with the underworld?"

I posted a thread about Kay getting the kids here:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...=true#Post36402

Went to see g1 & g 2 last night at the novies, we're back to back. In g2, the 2 Tahoe shooters that were in the ditch, when Rocco says " It looks like they were hired out of New York" they show the 2 shooters, if you pause it right there, you can see the garrot marks on the guy on the right, but the guy on the left is out of position.
The Geary scene in the brothel, you can see the "dead" hooker breathing in the bed when they show Tom saying " she has no family".

Maybe so!

“The Pope...the Holy Father himself…. has this very day blessed Michael Corleone and you think you know better than the Pope?!!”

pulling your leg! aside,
I reckon, Michael was pretty much “very publicly linked to organized crime" and 'looked' guilty” in the “court of public opinion” long before the senate hearing, out of which, Michael “got off” in my opinion, 'looking' better than before the hearing!

1. all of the below and some! were “put in the record” by the senate chairman
2. Michael having never been arrested or indicted for any crime whatsoever
3. Michael issuing a challenge to the senate committee to produce any witness or evidence against or
4. to clear Michael's name with the same publicity with which they have now besmirched it

Exactly! Woltz
If Kay had concerns about how the existing son 'not' fine Anthony is turning out, in my opinion, as a mother, Kay could [should] have stayed on and nurtured her children as best as she could, not leave them behind in Michael's way of life especially during their most formative, helpless, impressionable, vulnerable years

Ref: How did Kay get the kids? [Thanks Turnbull for the link]
Wow! so many threads! There isn't enough time!

Whilst it is somewhat unclear, exactly how long [perhaps up to University age?] Anthony and Mary were with Michael, looking at them in Godfather III they seem to have turned out pretty good and I believe credit should be given to both the parents

Anthony and Mary's foundation would have been laid, when they were with Michael?
Also Kay tells Michael “Only if you let Tony go free, to have his own life. Away from you” Does this mean Michael was still somehow involved in their children's lives?

It seems, Michael's way of life was finishing! or trying to finish!! [Immobiliare?] by Godfather III [it never ends!]
And Michael did end up remorseful for his sins

Michael still had the drawing Anthony left for him on his pillow, all those years ago
Anthony said to Michael, he will always be Michael's son but will never have anything to do with the business. Fair enough!

If my memory serves me right,
As regards Mary, Michael surrounded by his family, was parading himself and his family in public, so out in the open even at the steps of the Opera house in Sicily, in the night, in full view of anyone lurking knowing Mosca, the assassin who had never failed thus far, was contracted to murder him and that Mosca had already murdered Don Tommasino Go figure!

Michael was slipping not smart Opera

In fairness, I believe it was Vito who sowed the seeds, leaving a murderous legacy and set Michael up for his own destruction

Vito could have cut their losses and walked away from Mafia but he didn't because he wanted, needed the Corleone family reputation, standing, history etc. to be restored, leaving a murderous legacy for Michael

Vito planned all the baptism murders including making his daughter a widow for Michael to carry out after Vito's death

Once Michael took over, it was not easy just to walk away He was a powerful man with responsibility for others

I agree the whole "going legitimate" plan was one that Michael and Vito cooked up as Nevada move was work in progress when Vito was still alive

Michael had the added burden of trying to make decades old Mafia business legitimate
Michael and Kay were unrealistic that such a feat, near impossibility could be accomplished let alone in five years

If Kay hadn't become Michael's horror perhaps they could have salvaged the situation as best as possible
Perhaps Anthony would have become a lawyer which means they would not have been at the Opera and Mary would not have got killed

Even if Kay had been stewing and it never ends, Tahoe shooting, senate hearing public revelations, evasive legitimacy, she never realised how difficult and unrealistic to legitimize the Corleone empire

She never understood nor supportive that he was a top Mafia boss, trying to become a "legitimate" businessman

I also believe Kay did not know that Michael had personally murdered until the senate hearing Perhaps that was the final straw
When talking about sick Vito, she said "But you're not like him" let alone personally murder

The elusive legitimacy.....the answerability and accountability of the funds for the casinos unless Michael's "I own stock in some of the hotels there but very little" at the senate hearing shows how the casinos are "fronted' legally by reputed people with no besmirches

However Geary stated to Michael "You own or you control, two major hotels in Vegas, one in Reno"

1. The Olive oil business so profitable?! bookkeeping faultless?!
2. Corleone's money laundering so successful that it left no trail
3. Didn't the law enforcement question and investigate, where the money came from, for the casinos

Well I agree the roots came from Vito. HOWEVER its not fair to totally excuse Mike. I mean nobody matched the coldness and ruthlessness that mike had. Also mike certainly could of gotten out after killing all the five families. Yes Roth was pissed about Moe but it was mostly because Mike was still heavily involved even though he had moved from New York. I know Mike is the main character so many will try to excuse the choices he made but at the end of the day HE caused the downfall

Interesting No secret, money was crime proceeds

Also legitimacy in Nevada but Pentangeli's crime operation in New York is still called Corleone Go figure!

Does anyone know what Brand of Cigarettes Michael indulged in?

Lucky Strike.

I knew it was a unfiltered smoke.

If i ever purchase a package of Cigarettes ever again it will be that.





I knew it was an unfiltered smoke.

If i ever purchase a package of Cigarettes ever again it will be that.

The car bomb Fabrizzio, Michael and Apollonia thread got me wondering whether Michael on hearing of Sonny's death, resigned himself to his 'destiny' that Michael has to step up and become the Don

Good question.

Many people on this board think Michael "signed on" when he visited Vito in the hospital after the bodyguards were pulled. When he said, "I'm with you now, Pop," Michael meant more than just being physically present with Vito--he was through distancing himself from his family and their business. He could have envisioned, in that moment, that he would eventually be the Don. He certainly knew that, after he killed Sol and Mac, he would never be a "civilian" again. And after the war broke out, Michael might have envisioned that Sonny could be killed, and he'd have to step in. But, the reality didn't set in until Sonny actually was killed, so, Lana, you're probably right.

As we saw in a deleted scene after Connie's wedding, Vito approved of Michael returning to college, which implies that he didn't want Michael to be the eventual Don. That's reinforced near the end, when Vito says to Michael, "I never wanted this for you, Michael...Senator Corleone...Governor Corleone..." On the other hand: In the novel, Clemenza and Paulie drive Kay to her hotel after Connie's wedding. Clemenza tells her that "the old man thought that Michael was the best of his three sons, the one who would surely inherit the family business."

TB, I believe Michael's words at that moment in the hospital were not a commitment to the family business or anything close to that. Michael was simply stating that his estrangement from his father was over.

As far as Michael committing to the family business after hearing of Sonny's Death, in the novel (after Apollonia is murdered) he tells Tommasino to tell his father that he wishes to be his son. Maybe that's a commitment to the family business.

True the reality didn't set in until Sonny actually was killed

I understand Michael “distancing himself from his family [crime] business” but why from his family?

It was strange indeed Michael in his Marines uniform, with his 'American' girlfriend in tow, turns up late for his sister's wedding, then goes and sits away from everybody and everything

Michael didn't go to see his father, mother and siblings, doesn't congratulate Carlo and Connie, the bridal couple

“He certainly knew that, after he killed Sol and Mac, he would never be a "civilian" again” though Vito's speech at the peace meeting 'cleared' Michael of all these false charges!

I believe Michael's involvement and killing of McCluskey and Sollozzo, was solely and all about protecting Vito, at that stage

In fact with the war, everyone would be expected to take extra precautions If not for Carlo...
The Corleones couldn't locate Sollozzo even with a hundred buttonmen on the street, twenty four hours a day! looking for Sollozzo

Michael only distanced himself from his father's guidance, not from his family.
Michael did not turn up late for his sister's wedding since the wedding is not portrayed in the film.
No member of the Corleone family is portrayed in the film congratulating Carlo and Connie
None of the Corleone family members is portrayed in the film as going to see each other except Tom and Fredo when they visited Michael and Kay at their table at the reception.

I note that you put "cleared" in quotes--right! Yes, Vito said, "My oldest son, forced to flee because of this Solozzo business." He didn't outright say Michael killed him...didn't outright say he didn't kill him. Nice bit of legal circumlocution. Tom taught him well.

I will have to watch the film again but as I remember, we do not see his father's guidance portrayed in the film until Michael became the Don

The presence of the guests, wedding reception in full swing, bridal couple sitting at the head table, music, dancing, family gathering for a family portrait indicate and I reckon enough is portrayed in the film, to surmise that the ceremony has been concluded and the wedding has been going, for sometime

All these tell me Michael turned up late and it would be the late arrival that goes to see them especially the bridal couple

Also other members of the Corleone family were already at the wedding so would have already congratulated Carlo and Connie

even FBI there before Michael
his father's guidance not portrayed in the film until Michael became the Don

Vito's surprise birthday flash back scene “family outsider” Michael didn't join his family singing “For he's a jolly good fellow” and remained seated all alone, away from everything

Good pick up! Turnbull “legal circumlocution” nicely done indeed

Sollozzo was stalling for time until Sollozzo could make another, this time successful, attempt on Vito's life

Sollozzo could have had the meeting with Consiglieri Tom whom Sollozzo himself acknowledged Tom is not in the muscle-end of the family, by request! without having to ambush / kidnap Tom again
Sollozzo's proposition was, for Tom to make peace between Sollozzo and Sonny, persuade Sonny to make the narcotics deal, believing Vito was dead

Why did Sollozzo want the meeting with 'civilian' Michael to hear and pass on to Sonny, Sollozzo's revised proposition, the deal so good the Corleones can't refuse – insincere truce request!

Whilst Michel undoubtedly would want to help / protect his father and family as the Police officer told McCluskey “The kid's clean Captain He [Michael] is a war hero. He's never been busted for the rackets”

• Did Sollozzo think 'messenger' Michael wouldn't wise up to Sollozzo's tricks
• What did Sollozzo hope to achieve with Michael that Sollozzo couldn't with Consiglieri Tom
• Tom too would have had to do the same – pass on the truce request to Sonny

In the book, Sonny says that Michael can get to Sollozzo because, "Most important they got him down as faggy...." Where they think Tom might be part of something cute, they think Michael's no threat.

I think the reason is that Sol knew Tom favored the deal even before the shooting, and said he'd "try" to persuade Sonny and the capos after Sol kidnapped him and let him go. But obviously Tom was not successful in getting Sonny to come around. Why try Tom a second time? Perhaps Sol thought that Michael, as a "real" son to Vito and a "real" brother to Sonny, could be more persuasive.

"Personal, not business."

well michael showed them

When Sollozzo made his [first] proposition - make peace between Sollozzo and Sonny, persuade Sonny to make the narcotics deal - to kidnapped Consiglieri Tom, Sollozzo believed Vito was dead

I think Sollozzo realised, with Vito alive, Sonny won't / can't make the deal even if “Sonny was hot for his deal”

Sollozzo's “Well that's bad luck for me and bad luck for you if you don't make that deal!” was a knee-jerk reaction out of frustration and trepidation, having to explain his failure to kill Vito, to Tattaglia [Barzini] and start all over again

I believe that's why Sollozzo requested the meeting for his [second] proposition, buying time until Sollozzo could make another, this time successful, attempt on Vito's life

Sollozzo didn't know that the Corleones had a man in McCluskey's precinct and would find out the 'secret' meeting place
Sollozzo was smug, secure and invulnerable being guarded by the Police captain

In my view, whatever Sollozzo hoped to achieve with 'civilian' Michael which I believe was to pass on to Sonny, Sollozzo's revised second proposition - his insincere truce request, Sollozzo could have, with Consiglieri Tom as either was just the 'messenger'
And if it was Tom! Sollozzo would have lived!!

My understanding is, Sollozzo wanted the Corleones to interfere no longer until Vito has recovered to start discussing the narcotics deal again or similar - his insincere truce request – not because “Perhaps Sol thought Michael, as a "real" son to Vito and a "real" brother to Sonny, could be more persuasive” to go for the narcotics deal?

Besides in fairness to Tom, he didn't get the opportunity “in getting Sonny to come around” because Vito was not dead

whatever Sollozzo hoped to achieve with 'civilian' Michael he could have, with Consiglieri Tom
He was buying time to make another, successful, attempt on Vito's life

I reckon he knew no way Sonny would make the deal, Vito dead or alive

What was the significance of not joining the family for Pop's birthday

Michael was making a statement about going his own way by joining the Marines. He knew Vito would be just as upset as was Sonny, but he declared his independence. He reinforced it with Tom: "You...talked to my father...about my future?"

I understand the "statement Michael was making about going his own way" but personal family Pop's birthday? unless Michael knew! Vito [Marlon Brando] was a no-show

why was Michael “distancing himself from his family

I don't think that Michael thought that the Mafia was evil so much as it was backward and unproductive. I think that he probably thought similarly about the other trappings of being a Corleones, such as Catholicism and Italian culture, and also family (with a small f). It was Michael's bad luck that Vito got shot when he did: Michael was a grown man, yet hadn't really established other ties yet, so he had to get involved. If Vito had gotten shot five years later, Michael would have been established in his own suburban or college town life, with a couple of Protestant children, and he wouldn't have been expected to make any kind of contribution to the ensuing fight.

That's my family Kay It's not me after telling her the true story Luca holding a gun to the band leader head because he thought Mafia was evil

he was not expected they laughed when he offered He got involved