"It was between the brothers, Kay."

Something that's been on my mind for quite awhile here; not a question about a plot twist or the meaning of a scene. Just an observation:

For some reason, it really bugs me to view the scenes where Michael lies to Kay, insults her intelligence, takes her love and her loyalty for granted. The "courtship" scene in New Hampshire after Michael returns from Sicily was cringe-inducing enough. The scene at the end of GF1 where Michael looks Kay right in the eye and lies to her face was downright disturbing.

For me though, the last straw is the scene in the DC hotel room, soon after Michael beats the rap at the Senate committee hearing by playing the Vincenzo Pentangeli card. Kay questions him about it, and Michael has the audacity to tell her, "It was between the brothers, Kay. I had nothing to do with it".

This is a woman who has now been married to Michael for several years. She had also known him for quite some time prior to their marriage. She has observed throughout all that time the changes in Michael's demeanor and behavior. Though she had never been involved in the family business, she surely had seen enough to have a good idea of what Michael and his associates were up to at any given time, at least in very general terms. She's not stupid. She can read between the lines. It's not hard to figure out.

Yet by this time, Michael lies to Kay as automatically and effortlessly as most people say "Good morning" or "How are you doing?" Part of this is undoubtedly due to the widespread chauvinism that still prevailed during the Forties, the Fifties and the early Sixties. But another part of it is undoubtedly due to Michael's basic lack of respect for Kay, his unwillingness or inability to treat her as his soulmate and intimate partner. And then there is the ever-present influence of the family business - and Michael's unresolved ambivalence about how to reconcile its demands with the requirements of a healthy, happy marriage and family life.

Viewed in its totality, it's easy to see from the clues in GF1 that Kay and Michael's marriage was headed for disaster, years before it ever happened. Almost like a slow-motion train wreck: perhaps a long time in coming, but ultimately inevitable. And heartbreaking when it actually happens.

~ Q

Even look back at the wedding in GF1, where he tells the Luca Brasi/Johnny Fontaine story as nonchalantly as someone talking about their trip to the store. Kay has a horrified look on her face, then Michael tells her that he's different (yeah...more ruthless).

I think that it is also indicative of something in Michael's character that he would tell that story to Kay. Michael could have simply told Kay that Vito used his rajunah and influence with the movie unions to get Johnny the contract release. Perhaps what he did tell Kay was a bit of hubris born of his affinity for using the threat of violence ("... backed up by murder") to get his way despite his protest to the contrary.

Point well taken, Q. Michael admits it in his confession to Cardinal Lamberto: "I betrayed my wife..." Since he (apparently) wasn't a philanderer, we can assume he meant all the lies and disappointments he inflicted on her.

While we're on the subject: I think Kay's moment of truth came right after the Tahoe shooting, while she's clutching Mary. If looks could kill...

That look was unmistakable. Any husband who's had the misfortune to be on the receiving end of that look knows it means a major showdown is coming.

~ Q

I definitely concur.

All the romantic love Michael had was drained from him when Appolonia died in the car explosion. His reunitiing with Kay was purely a matter of convenience. He'd been backk in the U.S. "a year, maybe more" before he even bothered to reach out to her. I think for both of them the marriage was really an arrangement. Their "courtship" on the street in New Hampshire was really more of a negotiation. Both of them were getting older (especially for those times) and both of them wanted families .. albeit for very different reasons.

From the beginning of GFII Kay seems to be trying to find a way out. Before the attempted hit, she reminds him that he had broken his promise to make the Corleone family completely legitimate within five years. everyone agrees what that look on her face after the hit meant. Then there is the scene where she wants to eave the Tahoe compound and Hagen basically tells he she is a prisoner.

Getting divorced in the 1950's was no easy or socially acceptable thing. For Kay, to take on Michael was literally a matter of life or death, so she had to be very careful. Even after she left him, he took the kids from her and wouldn't even allow visitation.

I think the romance aspect of the Kay/Michael relationship fizzled after Vito was shot. There's a couple of scenes pre-shooting where they're a couple in love -- the Christmas shopping scene immediately before Michael comes across the newspaper announcing Vito's shooting, and a deleted scene where they're having a romp in Kay's hotel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV5HIWK2Lxc).

Contrast that to after Vito's shooting - Michael is much more withdrawn. He has that thousand-yard stare while eating dinner at Kay's hotel room (just before he gets punched by McCluskey) and when she later calls, he can't even bring himself to tell Kay he loves her, for which Clemenza gives him a good-natured chiding.

Exactly. Vito's shooting transformed Michael. He observed the family gearing up for a full scale war, and deep down he knew that Sonny did not have what it took to be a good Don. He planned the break-up with Kay, and when he left her at the dinner table in the hotel room (nice touch FFC) and went to the hospital, all his fears were confirmed. Had he not arrived in time his father owuld have been killed and the corleone's would be finished. The next day when he coldly announced his plan to kill Sol and McCluskey, he really meant it when he told Sonny it wasn't personal it was purely business. The idea of the life he wanted with Kay was gone forever.

Precisely, and great insight. That line "just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in" was perhaps two films too late.

Up until Vito's shooting, Michael was a bit more cavalier about the family and would have been more content to be an American -- going to Dartmouth, enlisting in the Marine Corps, having the WASP girlfriend, et al. He even skipped Connie's wedding ceremony. And to Vito and others, they were content to keep him out of things and keep him on the "legitimate" side of things.

Vito was shot, and you're right - Michael had to save the Corleone family. It was for the noblest of reasons - family preservation - but Michael's metamorphosis had begun. The Corleones were saved, but Michael went from a good-natured, quiet kid to ruthless and evil. And even when he was trying to do good, he came off looking worse (his veneer of legitimacy and his donations and whatnot between GF2 and GF3). And in the end, he ended up losing everything - his life with Kay, his dreams of legitimacy and in the end, even his daughter.

You could argue that Michael was drawn into the Mafia life by circumstance--in his case, Vito's shooting and Sonny's subsequent assassination. But, in the novel, Vito says more than once, "A man has but one destiny." Was Michael destined to be a criminal mastermind?

I could see that being the destiny. After all, I find people tend to gravitate to what they're suited for, despite veneers and appearances.

An existential question worthy of its own thread. At least.

~ Q

I think that what Michael was destined for was to be a leader. I think that one of Puzo's themes is that the specific field isn't so important, because there's not so much difference between a Mafia don and a 'senator or a president."

No, I don't believe in destiny anymore than I believe in the religious concept or predestination. I also don't believe in momentum except as a result. Destiny and momentum are results, not causal variables.

The novel and film illustrate the variables affecting Michael's path. Why did he murder Sollozzo? He stated so: it was to keep Sollozzo from murdering his father. If Vito had recovered from his wounds earlier than he did, he probably would have been able to preclude Sonny's murder. Having done that, he would have not had to incorporate Michael into his criminal empire. Thus, Michael would not have taken command of the Corleone empire. Under those circumstances, if Vito had worked his magic and eliminated any threat to Michael once Michael returned from Sicily, there's nothing to indicate that Michael would have been part of the Corleone empire.

I think the message of The Godfather film trilogy is not so much Vito's wishful thinking about destiny, but rather the fact that every individual is the sum of his or her own choices in life, and once decisions are made there is no going back. Michael chose to be what he became just as his son chose a very different path.

Precisely Counselor!

I agree that the scene in the hotel room was pivotal.

It shows that Michael knows that he is being dragged into the Family business. This is reinforced by when he saves Vito from the second assassination attempt and realizes how calmly and easily he handles the situation (as noted by him looking at his steady hands while Enzo trembles besides him).

But it also shows that Kay is aware that Michael's life - and her life with him - has also irrevocably changed. Her repeated question of "When will I see you again?" shows that she is not unaware of what Michael is getting into and also demonstrates that she is not going to be willing to accept Michael's false promises unquestioningly (a quality that was dormant for a while but resurfaces later in their lives).

When Michael moves Vito in the hospital, you can see tears streaming down Vito's face when Michael reassures him that he's being protected.

That probably can be interpreted a couple of ways - Vito was grateful that his family was watching over him in his time of need, or that he was sad that his hopes for Michael living an American life were gone. I think it's the latter - when Vito returned home from the hospital, he was visibly upset that Michael killed McCluskey and Sollozo, and in the scene preceding his death, Vito tells Michael he never wanted this life for him.

At the hospital, Vito's tears were of joy because his estranged son was estranged no longer; at home, they were because Michael's murder of Sollozzo destroyed any of Vito's hopes that Michael would one day hold the strings of legitimate power.

Michaels biggest mistake was getting involved. Protecting vito at the hospital was one thing but once he committed murder he crossed over to the dark side. All his morals were gone and he basically became evil and paranoid. In regards to kay i feel bad for her because she tried to continue to love mike even when he changed. I found it funny how he continued to lie to her even though she knew he was full of shit