Godfather

TRY TO SETTLE A 25 YEAR ARGUMENT, I NEED SUBSTANTIATION OR JUST YOUR OPINION ! AFTER BAPTISM ROCCO PULLS UP AND WHISPERS IN MICHEALS EAR, MICHEAL WHISPERS BACK AND GIVES A DEATH STARE AT CARLO.

WIFE SEZ ROCCO INFORMED MICHEAL ALL THE 5 FAMILIES DEAD
I SAY THAT ROCCO JUST TOLD MICHEAL THAT CARLO SET UP SONNY

WHAT DO YOU THINK OR GIVE ME A PLACE TO LOOK

Mike knew a long time before this that Carlo set Sonny up. He may not have been 100% certain of it (and that's why he needed to hear Carlo admit it) but it was Rocco telling Mike that all the Corleone enemies were effectively dealt with in that scene on the church steps.

Welcome to the boards, johnny! (One request - please don't type in all caps).

Any evidence on this ? Or is this what you think, I think the stare was the end for Carlo and was why Mike wanted to know was it Barrzinni or Tattalia, thanks for input

No real hard evidence of this. I'm pretty sure Vito and Mike both knew it but wouldn't or couldn't act on getting revenge. Mike's "death stare" at Carlo was the look that he now had to act on it. He was hesitant to do so because it meant killing his sister's husband (something Vito couldn't bring himself to do). Mike HAD to hear Carlo confess it before ordering Carlo be killed. He HAD to be sure beyond any doubt. (Mike had to wait until Vito died so Vito couldn't be responsible for any of it).

Again, there is no definite proof of all this; just my own beliefs after watching the movie a few hundred times.

SC, thanks again for your input, probably no one has the correct answer and I'm with you, saw GF 1 & 2 couple hundred times, never thought too much of 3. One scene I visited Calvary Cemetery on near Flushing, you can see the Kusisko Bridge and two gigantic fuel storage tanks in background. My grandparents are there and brought videos of Don Vito's Funeral to find filming scene

Those tanks are gone now (torn down about ten years ago).

Interesting funeral scene. It's been discussed a lot here on the boards and it seems like Fredo didn't attend the funeral, but if you look REAL closely you can see him getting out of one of the cars as they first pulled up to the gravesite. (The other scenes of him there were evidently edited out).

SC thanks for that update, never missed Fredo at Cemetery, next viewing I'll check out the Limo's pulling into Calvary. I have not been in LI for years, thanks for the storage tanks updates.

I agree that's it's all conjecture,but given what we know about Mike,I have to believe that he already knew it was Carlo who set up Sonny. I liked the way he let Carlo believe that all he wanted was for Carlo to tell him if it was was Tatt or Barz. Of course, the answer wouldn't matter since they were both dead by then. The supposed purpose was to get a witnessed confession. (I've always had an issue with mike's "need" to get Carlo to admit what he had done. IMHO,Carlo was a dead man no matter what he said).

Carlo was really naive thinking that his only punishment was being "out of the Family business".

I have tried to make out what he says as well. I'm not sure what he says at the very beginning but I always thought it looked like the last thing Rocco says is we got them all.

Thanks for all replies they are all valid but that look and stare Micheal gave Carlo after the whisper reply will always make me believe He just found out about Carlo. Just a question to all. Why and what hard evidence does anyone know that makes you think that Micheal already knew Carlo set up Sonny ? I cannot think of anything I seen or heard that Micheal knew Carlo set up Sonny.

That "need" to hear Carlo confess comes from Mario Puzo himself. It was in the novel.

Read the novel. As I recall (it's been awhile since I last read it) there is no EXACT statement saying that Mike and Vito knew of Carlo's complicity but it is definitely alluded to.

Welcome to the boards, Johnny.

If you're here looking for "hard evidence," you won't have much luck. A lot of what we discuss is speculation, some clearly supported by evidence from the book and movies, some more fanciful. But that's the brilliance of the movies- that there is so much subtext that we can speculate as to what it means 40 years later.

As to your question, I believe that Rocco was just reporting on the result of the hits.

For one thing, Michael himself tells Carlo that he was never fooled by the charade of the fight with Connie. I see no reason to disbelieve him.

But, more compellingly, accepting the idea that Michael only just found out about Carlo at the funeral leads to some logical stretches:

1. That Rocco was not providing Michael with the vital information on the hit. How else would Michael know whether they were successful?

2. That, while overseeing a major string of assassinations, Rocco somehow came into possession of important information that had eluded the Family for months.

3. That Michael would immediately murder a family member based solely on a whispered conversation on a sidewalk with no further follow up or investigation.

4. That Michael would be able to plan Carlo's assassination, gather the people together, buy plane tickets, etc. in a matter of minutes or hours. Plus, if he didn't know about Carlo before that day, would he really have so many people on site for the killing? What if one of them was in cahoots with Carlo? He had no time to investigate that.

As far as evidence I just feel Mike had an idea all along but was confirmed by Rocco. As far as setting up Carlo for the kill I think Carlo was going to die anyway despite getting the tickets,luggage and Clemenza sitting in back seat, whether Rocco said it's over or fingering Carlo, Carlo was going to die either way. Thanks for all the replies that's what Hollywood is all about. Just like "Going with the Wind" did Rhett ever go back with Scarlett ?

Exactly W. Some of the speculation expressed on this Board is way out in left field.

Another question, in car after the meeting of the 5 families when Tom said you mean Tatalia. Godfather ans with Tatalia's a pimp it was Barzinni all along. How did He know it was Barzzini ?

We get the hints about Barzini because he sits at the head of the table, and jumps the gun on the agreement ("then it is agreed--the traffic in drugs will be allowed, and Don Corleone will provide protection in the East") before Vito officially says he'll protect it. (And he's the only Don smoking a cigarette--the others are smoking cigars--showing that Barzini isn't a "moustache Pete.").

I'm surprised that Vito took that long to figure out that it was Barzini all along.

There is also Connie's curious line after the killing when she says Michael blamed Carlo for Santino...."everyne did."

Looking at this thread, and also re-reading the material in the book leading up to Sonny's death, I have a couple of observations:

First, Carlo's confession is pretty meaningless. Michael more or less tells him that if he fingers Barzini or Tattaglia he's going to Vegas, but if Carlo "insults his intelligence" Michael is more ambiguous, except that he'll be very angry. Of course Carlo confessed, anyone would.

Second, I'm not really sure if Carlo's beating of Connie makes more sense if Carlo was arranging things or if Carlo was being set up. The sequence makes sense to me if the girl who called Carlo was actually beholden to, say, Tattaglia the pimp. She calls, starts a huge fight in the house, Carlo has bragged about roughing Connie up, [edit: and he does it again], and Sonny comes to the rescue. I'm just starting to re-think this, so there could be material out there that clarifies all this, but I'm not sure that it makes much sense for Carlo to get this girl to call the apartment and set all of this in motion.

Pete, I've posted elsewhere that Michael's extraction of a confession from Carlo was simply the shark circling his prey, nothing more. As the novel states, there was more than one time that Michael felt that cold chill of excitement over concealing his real feelings in anticipation of a later moment of revenge. His tete a tete with Carlo was another one of those times.

Carlo didn't arrange anything; it was Barzini.