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Did anyone else notice that .......

Posted By: Frankie_Five_Angels

Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/26/14 06:29 AM

..... in the scene with Hagen and Geary at Fredo's brothel, right after Tom says "It will be as though she never existed"... the camera shows the girl on the bed full of blood, and she is clearly BREATHING ???

Isn't she suppossed to already be dead? I was shocked to just catch that mistake now after all these years...

...was wondering if this is a commonly known screw up that I had just never heard about before, or not...
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/26/14 09:54 AM

I don't see it.
Posted By: Frankie_Five_Angels

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/26/14 11:16 PM

.... after Tom says "it will be as though she never existed" it cuts to her and Geary. Just before it cuts back to Tom... She clearly is inhaling from her chest and stomach.
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/27/14 01:53 PM

I will look for it.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/18/14 01:23 PM

Watched it last night. There's no movement in her body.
Posted By: dixiemafia

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/18/14 01:48 PM

The only movement I seen is when Geary was moving her hands. Other than that I didn't see her breathing either.
Posted By: Lou_Para

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/19/14 07:48 PM

If you search the IMDB (Internet Movie Database)you can find tons of trivia and goofs for the GF movies (or any movies you want,for that matter).
It's a great page to add to your bookmarks.
Posted By: Mr. Blonde

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/21/14 04:33 PM

I also did not see it.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/06/14 01:49 PM

To add to the "notice":

During the wedding reception scene, Michael introduces Tom to Kay as Tom Hagen. I suppose that's to also introduce Tom as a step-sibling for the audience that didn't read the novel. But Tom follows up by telling Michael that "your father" has been asking for you. Then in the meeting after Vito is shot, Tom uses the phrase again by telling Sonny If "your father dies ...". In both scenes, why does Tom not say "Pop" or use some similar synonym?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/06/14 02:45 PM

Oli, the nominal reason is found in the novel: Vito insisted that Tom honor his father's memory by never forgetting who he was, even though his father was an abusive drunk.

BUT: we can read a lot more into it--did Tom really think he wasn't accepted as a full-fledged family member? (after the Tahoe attack, he practically bawls with gratitude when he tells Michael, "I always wanted to be regarded as a brother by you"). Or did Vito, ever calculating, want his future consigliere to retain his non-Italian name--the better to be accepted by the largely Irish and Jewish politicians and judges Vito needed?
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/06/14 02:59 PM

To TB's point, I think Vito used that story about Tom keeping his name to make Tom feel good. Vito never adopted him cause he was not the same blood...it was that "SSSSSicilian thing thats been going on for 2,000 years."
Posted By: DE NIRO

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/10/14 04:00 PM

I don't see it either..
Posted By: BigEarner

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/10/14 08:06 PM

I just noticed it lol
Posted By: slumpy

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/21/14 12:44 PM



You don't adopt children of your own familial bloodline, so that answer doesn't really make sense to me. Perhaps by not giving tom the Corleone name it's more of a way to keep him outside the "line of succession" as it were since leadership in the GF universe seems to pass through hereditary lines. Maybe it was seen as legitimizing tom and thus making his German/Irish ethnicity less important. The Corleone name is a "big deal" and invokes a response from all those concerned.

I know this is a bit of a stretch, just letting my mind wander wink
Posted By: don illuminati

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/29/14 06:03 AM

Don't forget that Tom was the one who Vito showed parental compassion to when Tom told Vito that sonny was dead.
Posted By: Louren_Lampone

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/18/14 09:22 AM

Originally Posted By: olivant
To add to the "notice":

During the wedding reception scene, Michael introduces Tom to Kay as Tom Hagen. I suppose that's to also introduce Tom as a step-sibling for the audience that didn't read the novel. But Tom follows up by telling Michael that "your father" has been asking for you. Then in the meeting after Vito is shot, Tom uses the phrase again by telling Sonny If "your father dies ...". In both scenes, why does Tom not say "Pop" or use some similar synonym?


I also noticed that Oli...doesn't seem he would use that phrase if he grew up as Sonny's "brother."
Posted By: Lou_Para

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/18/14 12:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Louren_Lampone
Originally Posted By: olivant
To add to the "notice":

During the wedding reception scene, Michael introduces Tom to Kay as Tom Hagen. I suppose that's to also introduce Tom as a step-sibling for the audience that didn't read the novel. But Tom follows up by telling Michael that "your father" has been asking for you. Then in the meeting after Vito is shot, Tom uses the phrase again by telling Sonny If "your father dies ...". In both scenes, why does Tom not say "Pop" or use some similar synonym?


I also noticed that Oli...doesn't seem he would use that phrase if he grew up as Sonny's "brother."

Two thoughts:
1) According to the novel, Vito never intended to legally adopt Tom because to do do would show disrespect to Tom's birth father. Maybe by referring to Tom as "Hagen",they were merely respecting Vito's decision.
2) When Tom uses the phrase "your father",to Mike and Sonny,I believe he is acting as a typical lawyer,since Vito is legally not Tom's father. Always the Consigliere, he immediately switches into battle mode after Vito's shooting. In his mind,he is acting as the adviser to the Corleone Family,and since it is "business,not personal",his obligation is to be accurate,logical,and calm. The blood relationship between Vito and his son's would have no more bearing on his advice to Sonny than the blood relationships of the Tattaglia's or the Barzini's.

When he says to Sonny "I'm as much of a son to him as you or Mike", he means that he loves and is loved by Vito just as much as the brothers,but that the issue is the survival of the Corleone Family and their businesses
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/18/14 12:53 PM

Also notice that in the film and the novel, Tom never refers to Vito as "Pop," "Godfather" or "Don Corleone." In fact, he never uses any form of address.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/18/14 06:46 PM

Right TB, It's not until II's flashback scene that he refers to him as Pop.

Also, to add tot he above, Sonny tells Tom "... he's not your father." Considering the bond between Sonny and Tom, that's quite a cold thing to say. At the least, it's unexpected.
Posted By: Gudfadern

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/19/14 10:30 AM

Originally Posted By: olivant
Right TB, It's not until II's flashback scene that he refers to him as Pop.

Also, to add tot he above, Sonny tells Tom "... he's not your father." Considering the bond between Sonny and Tom, that's quite a cold thing to say. At the least, it's unexpected.

And why is that? I'm really curious about that matter in case anyone wonders.

I definitely agree on that. It is quite a cold thing to say.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/19/14 01:32 PM

If you're asking why Sonny said, "He's not your father," well, Vito wasn't Tom's father. But more to the point: Sonny wasn't very sensitive (later he hurls at Tom, "Pop had Genco, look what I got"). He may also have been expressing resentment toward Tom for advocating negotiation rather than shooting. Sonny also may have been feeling guilty because he knew that his gaffe at the Solozzo meeting triggered the attack on his father. Sonny would feel less guilty if he killed Sol rather than negotiate with him.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/19/14 01:43 PM

Good assessment TB. Also, Sonny was not the epitome of a sensitive person. His liberal mouthings matched his intemperate behavior. He recognized such when he immediately apologized to Tom for the Genco remark.
Posted By: Gudfadern

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/24/14 05:37 AM

I know that. But imagine for Tom, he must have been feeling quite hurt and constantly left out. I think he wanted to be a real full blooded family member and like he says to Michael in the second film, "I always wanted to be thought of as a brother by you". But what I meant was why they didn't have him refer to him as Pop until Part II's flashback scene.
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/24/14 02:26 PM

Tom does refer to Vito as "the old man," which isn't uncommon to refer to a father.
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/04/14 04:43 PM

I will repeat what I have said elsewhere. Michael and Santino both resented and were a bit jealous of Tom's relationship with Vito. In many ways Vito understood that Sonny was nothing without Tom, and that if Michael was to have a "legitimate" careed, only Tom could be the intermediary.

The result was all the mean spirited things both Sonny and Michael constantly said to Tom.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/04/14 04:55 PM

DT, I agree with you about Michael, but definitely not about Sonny.

Michael betrayed his antipathy(?) for Tom when he told Kay about his possibly becoming Consigliere: "... not a Sicilian..." On the other hand Sonny's mean words to Tom were just manifestations of Sonny's anger born out of the tremendous stress he was feeling.

By the way, where have you been?
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/19/15 10:08 PM

Another did you notice ...

You can watch the GF 100 times, but some things just slip by. That's the case when Tom visits Woltz at the studio. Why did Tom take his briefcase?

Then there's Luca's murder. It's December; it gets dark about 6PM. Vito's about to go to his car to be driven home. However, simultaneously, Luca is visitng Sollozzo at either the Tattaglia club or a hotel bar (which it looks like). The windows to the club or bar are on a hallway through which any number of people could pass and view a murder. Doesn't make sense.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/19/15 11:30 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
Another did you notice ...

You can watch the GF 100 times, but some things just slip by. That's the case when Tom visits Woltz at the studio. Why did Tom take his briefcase?

Adding personal gravitas, I guess. When is a lawyer not a lawyer? When he's not toting his briefcase.

Quote:
Then there's Luca's murder. It's December; it gets dark about 6PM. Vito's about to go to his car to be driven home. However, simultaneously, Luca is visitng Sollozzo at either the Tattaglia club or a hotel bar (which it looks like). The windows to the club or bar are on a hallway through which any number of people could pass and view a murder. Doesn't make sense.


That's true logically, Oli. And, any bar owner would want passersby to see the bar. Perhaps it was a restaurant or a club where the bar was not the focus of attention. Plenty of restaurants and clubs don't have the bar visible from the street or corridor. But: FFC probably did it because that fish design in the window made a nice visual.
Posted By: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/19/15 11:46 PM

In FFC's defense, he made GF1 with Robert Evans trying to fire him every 15 minutes. That would screw up anyone's attention to detail.
Posted By: The Last Woltz

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/20/15 10:01 AM

I noticed something new while watching GF1 last night.

In the scene where Michael is asked by Kay in the car to be Godfather to Connie's baby, Michael hands Anthony out to Neri, who is tenderly bouncing him in the background while Kay and Michael talk.

That affectionate moment foreshadows the "Anthony's friends are your buttonmen" fight in GF2.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/20/15 12:11 PM

You're right Woltz. It does.

Another thing. This is kind of amusing: why in the world would Vito not have the mall driveway paved; why the gravel?
Posted By: SC

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/20/15 12:25 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
Then there's Luca's murder. It's December; it gets dark about 6PM. Vito's about to go to his car to be driven home. However, simultaneously, Luca is visitng Sollozzo at either the Tattaglia club or a hotel bar (which it looks like). The windows to the club or bar are on a hallway through which any number of people could pass and view a murder. Doesn't make sense.


Actually, it gets dark in NYC about 4:30 p.m. at that time of year.

I was under the impression that Luca met with Sollozzo the night before the attempt on Vito. Late at night.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/20/15 01:44 PM

Originally Posted By: SC

Actually, it gets dark in NYC about 4:30 p.m. at that time of year.

I was under the impression that Luca met with Sollozzo the night before the attempt on Vito. Late at night.


The novel lays it out that way. However, in the film, the scenes are interwoven and Fredo getting the car and Vito getting shot bookend Luca's murder.

My comment about it getting dark was meant to emphasize that a club or bar would be getting busy about that time.
Posted By: SC

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/20/15 01:50 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
The novel lays it out that way. However, in the film, the scenes are interwoven and Fredo getting the car and Vito getting shot bookend Luca's murder.


Doesn't mean that it happened at the same time. Part II had (flashback) scenes interwoven with those of what was supposed to be current.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/20/15 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By: SC


Doesn't mean that it happened at the same time. Part II had (flashback) scenes interwoven with those of what was supposed to be current.


The flashback scene in II was intended to be a flashback scene and to be recognized by viewers as a flashback scene.
Posted By: SC

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/20/15 07:20 PM

Can't have it both ways, oli. Those scenes are simply not chronological. They jump back and forth in time. Otherwise, according to your time idea, Tom Hagen was picked up by Sollozzo before Vito was shot.

Luca was killed long before the other scenes took place.
Posted By: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/20/15 08:48 PM

Okay....here's one to watch, and you can tell your significant other that it's research.

In the post-wedding scene -- when Apollonia strips down, notice how she has bikini tan lines.

Given how old-fashioned her father was, I'm guessing that's the last thing he's permit her to wear.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/20/15 09:49 PM

...I was too busy watching other parts of her anatomy...
Posted By: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/20/15 10:07 PM

That's where the tan lines are...
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/20/15 10:57 PM

How do you know what part of her anatomy I was looking at? wink
Posted By: DonJon

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/27/15 01:29 PM

Anyone notice that the a red spot like a bullet hole appears on McCluskey'd head before Michael shoots?
Posted By: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/27/15 05:39 PM

Sure enough. That was a squib under makeup attached to a fishing line. When Michael fires, a stagehand off camera yanks the line and the squib goes off.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/27/15 09:38 PM

For that matter: notice how the bullet hole in Mac's head appears first, while he's shot in the throat?
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/29/15 02:31 PM

Yes, just like I always notice how Woltz magically keeps Hagen's wine glass filled.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/29/15 03:06 PM

Originally Posted By: dontomasso
Yes, just like I always notice how Woltz magically keeps Hagen's wine glass filled.


... and how Manolo kept Vito's hedges trimmed.
Posted By: Frankie_Five_Angels

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/10/15 01:27 AM

...also just realized that Willi Cicci is one of Sonny's bodyguards when he beats up Carlo... (I thought he was originally with Clemenza???)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OEhiTHJ0EA

...and Genco (Frank Sivero)is a bystander in the same scene. lol
Posted By: Frankie_Five_Angels

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/10/15 01:35 AM

... scene where I believe the dead hooker is still breathing... at about 17-18.5 seconds. If you can't notice it here, I don't know what to tell you...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSxXiHRZTOY
Posted By: Gudfadern

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/10/15 06:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Frankie_Five_Angels
... scene where I believe the dead hooker is still breathing... at about 17-18.5 seconds. If you can't notice it here, I don't know what to tell you...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSxXiHRZTOY

I don't see it.

Just kidding!
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/23/15 04:44 PM

No matter how many times I watch The Trilogy, there are things I notice for the first time. One of them is in the scene where Michael returns from Sicily and sees Kay for the first time. Unless I'm mistaken, he never smiles in that scene. I wonder if Kay noticed.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/23/15 10:55 PM

That scene was more like a business negotiation than a wooing of Kay. Not only didn't Michael smile (even after he told Kay he loved her--perhaps he was going to offer an affidavit to that effect), but that limo following them, and his homburg hat and black suit (looking like a pint-sized banker) made it even more businesslike.
Posted By: Frankie_Five_Angels

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/26/15 03:02 PM

FFC was definitely letting you know that Michael had been changed after Apollonias death. Even when he tells Kay he loves her... he's says it matter of factly..
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/26/15 04:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Frankie_Five_Angels
FFC was definitely letting you know that Michael had been changed after Apollonias death. Even when he tells Kay he loves her... he's says it matter of factly..


Exactly. That's why I think that many Board members have it wrong when they cite Michael's "I'm with you now" statement to Vito when he was in the hospital. That statement represented Michael's renouncing his estrangement from his father (such estrangement is explained in the novel and somewhat also in one of the Saga's scenes). It was not meant by Michael to represent his commitment to his father's crime family and its machinations. As you appear to point out, such commitment was, in large part, a function of Appolonia's murder and Fabrizio's betrayal.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/26/15 11:33 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
Exactly. That's why I think that many Board members have it wrong when they cite Michael's "I'm with you now" statement to Vito when he was in the hospital. That statement represented Michael's renouncing his estrangement from his father (such estrangement is explained in the novel and somewhat also in one of the Saga's scenes). It was not meant by Michael to represent his commitment to his father's crime family and its machinations. As you appear to point out, such commitment was, in large part, a function of Appolonia's murder and Fabrizio's betrayal.

I agree with your analysis, Oli. I don't think Michael could have envisioned himself as being an integral part of the family enterprise when he said, "I'm with you now, Pop." And in any event, Sonny was still in charge. Even his decision to whack Sol and Mac was made to protect his father against another attempt on his life (and perhaps in revenge for Mac breaking his jaw, but let's not go there now).

By the time of Appolonia's murder, Michael was no longer a "civilian" because of his murder of Mac and Sol, and was a hunted man. And, Sonny had been killed. Arguably, his decision to become the Don-in-waiting was taken because there were few if any other options available to him after that point.
Posted By: DonJon

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/27/15 02:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Frankie_Five_Angels
... scene where I believe the dead hooker is still breathing... at about 17-18.5 seconds. If you can't notice it here, I don't know what to tell you...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSxXiHRZTOY


Yep, totally saw it.
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/31/15 03:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: olivant
Exactly. That's why I think that many Board members have it wrong when they cite Michael's "I'm with you now" statement to Vito when he was in the hospital. That statement represented Michael's renouncing his estrangement from his father (such estrangement is explained in the novel and somewhat also in one of the Saga's scenes). It was not meant by Michael to represent his commitment to his father's crime family and its machinations. As you appear to point out, such commitment was, in large part, a function of Appolonia's murder and Fabrizio's betrayal.

I agree with your analysis, Oli. I don't think Michael could have envisioned himself as being an integral part of the family enterprise when he said, "I'm with you now, Pop." And in any event, Sonny was still in charge. Even his decision to whack Sol and Mac was made to protect his father against another attempt on his life (and perhaps in revenge for Mac breaking his jaw, but let's not go there now).

By the time of Appolonia's murder, Michael was no longer a "civilian" because of his murder of Mac and Sol, and was a hunted man. And, Sonny had been killed. Arguably, his decision to become the Don-in-waiting was taken because there were few if any other options available to him after that point.


I'm not so sure. Michael saw that Sonny was not a good Don when he sat in on the meeting when they brought the dead fish. He planned the break up with Kay, and when he got to the hospital to find no guards there, it confirmed his belief that he was better equiped to take care of Vito than Sonny was. When he tells Vito "I'm with you now" he means it more than metaphorically. I do believe that Michael thought he could be a part of the family business and remain legitimate , a self-delusion that followed him to his death, and I agree the killing of Apollonia cemented his resolve, but after Michael told Vito he was with him, the next things he did were telling. He got Enzo to pretend he was a hit man, he provoked McCluskey, and then he took over the meeting the next day when he literally vetoed Sonny and Tom's plan to "wait."
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/31/15 04:26 PM

Originally Posted By: dontomasso
but after Michael told Vito he was with him, the next things he did were telling. He got Enzo to pretend he was a hit man, he provoked McCluskey, and then he took over the meeting the next day when he literally vetoed Sonny and Tom's plan to "wait."


Oh DT, you are soooooo wrong. You are probably more wrong than any Board member has ever been. Ten years ago, would you have been this wrong? With all due respect, you're slippin'.

The actions that Michael took regarding Enzo, McCluskey, and the next day's meeting were all to protect Vito; they were not a commitment to the Mafia life.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/31/15 09:27 PM

Originally Posted By: dontomasso
He planned the break up with Kay,

??? confused
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/30/15 12:58 AM

Anybody ever notice in the scene outside the barber shop n GF2 when young Vito is talking to Signer Roberto the sign in the window says; "Black Eye Specialist"?



Here's the explanation...

http://newscentral.exsees.com/item/36a6f73f1f57979db58f442c3a5b52d2-9c72adbb34ee1f528910df1ab9e3615a
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/30/15 01:45 AM

Good catch!
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/30/15 03:16 PM

In the novel, Michael tells Sonny that his Sicilian is rusty, but that he and Sollozzo won't talk long. At the meeting, he is forced to switch to English to make his point. However, in GFII, he converses quite fluently with his mother and with Pentangeli.
Posted By: Mr. Blonde

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/30/15 03:33 PM

I just gathered that Michael had made an effort to make himself fluent for the sake of business and succeeded. Evidence of the power of Michael's intellect.
Posted By: helenwheels

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/30/15 04:27 PM

His Sicilian would naturally have gotten better while living in Sicily after he kills Solazzo.
Posted By: Mr. Blonde

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/30/15 05:07 PM

Originally Posted By: helenwheels
His Sicilian would naturally have gotten better while living in Sicily after he kills Solazzo.


It was still unrefined then, at least at the point where he needed Fabrizio to translate to Appolonia's father. He wasn't shown as fluent until Part II.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/01/15 01:01 AM

Anybody else notice that Mama Corleone (Morgana King) does not appear in the Vito birthday flashback scene at the end of GF2?

How about the Corleone Family Chart that appears at the Senate Hearings sans Vito & Clamenza pics?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/01/15 01:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Mr. Blonde
Originally Posted By: helenwheels
His Sicilian would naturally have gotten better while living in Sicily after he kills Solazzo.


It was still unrefined then, at least at the point where he needed Fabrizio to translate to Appolonia's father. He wasn't shown as fluent until Part II.

I think that might have been a clever power play on Michael's part. He orders Fab to translate, but obviously shows that he understands what Sr. Vitelli is saying in reply. Could be Michael showing Sr. V. that he's in charge--and that he knows enough Sicilian not to be fooled.
Posted By: Mr. Blonde

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/02/15 03:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: Mr. Blonde
Originally Posted By: helenwheels
His Sicilian would naturally have gotten better while living in Sicily after he kills Solazzo.


It was still unrefined then, at least at the point where he needed Fabrizio to translate to Appolonia's father. He wasn't shown as fluent until Part II.

I think that might have been a clever power play on Michael's part. He orders Fab to translate, but obviously shows that he understands what Sr. Vitelli is saying in reply. Could be Michael showing Sr. V. that he's in charge--and that he knows enough Sicilian not to be fooled.


Interesting theory. It does show his superior position over Fabrizio. I'll have to rewatch the scene to see how much understanding Michael demonstrates.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/04/15 04:11 PM

So, Michael finds Kay at her school escorting a group of 1st graders across the street I guess on a nature walk. The next scene has her walking with Michael. Where are the kids? Did she abandon them? Are they still standing in the street? And what about the kid who comes riding toward them on his bicycle as his dog follows? Why isn't he in school?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/04/15 05:54 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
So, Michael finds Kay at her school escorting a group of 1st graders across the street I guess on a nature walk. The next scene has her walking with Michael. Where are the kids? Did she abandon them? Are they still standing in the street? And what about the kid who comes riding toward them on his bicycle as his dog follows? Why isn't he in school?

Well, Oli, the answer might be found in an experience from my long-ago youth:

I was in junior high and was home sick. A classmate dropped by to visit with me at about 1 p.m. My dad was home, and he asked by friend why he wasn't in school. Without batting an eye, my friend replied, "It's Grover Cleveland's birthday--we get a half-day off." lol
Posted By: Professor_M

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/05/15 03:13 AM

Originally Posted By: olivant
So, Michael finds Kay at her school escorting a group of 1st graders across the street I guess on a nature walk. The next scene has her walking with Michael. Where are the kids? Did she abandon them? Are they still standing in the street? And what about the kid who comes riding toward them on his bicycle as his dog follows? Why isn't he in school?


Maybe there was another chaperone/escort to keep the kids in line.

A Catholic school might have a few different holidays than did the surrounding Rifraff schools. wink
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/05/15 03:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
A classmate dropped by to visit with me at about 1 p.m. My dad was home, and he asked by friend why he wasn't in school. Without batting an eye, my friend replied, "It's Grover Cleveland's birthday--we get a half-day off." lol


I wonder how many Board members get the Grover Cleveland joke.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/09/15 10:28 PM

I've always noticed the poignant act of Senator Geary turning the cannon around on Michael's desk so it pointed directly back at Michael while they are speaking. The look on Michael's face is priceless. Anybody else see the major significance of this? I think it was a powerful statement from the senator as a warning for "Corlee-oney and his whole f%@&#+g family"...
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/10/15 01:20 AM

Very nice touch. That whole scene was very powerful. And realistic:

Prominent Nevadans of that period, who could trace their ancestry in the state back three or more generations, believed they were entitled to play by their own rules and dictate terms to "outsiders" like Michael. You saw another view of the same attitude in "Casino," when County Commissioner Webb confronts Ace Rothstein about getting his worthless brother in law reinstated in a juiced-in job. I believe Oli posted that Texans have the same attitude.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/10/15 03:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Very nice touch. That whole scene was very powerful. And realistic:

Prominent Nevadans of that period, who could trace their ancestry in the state back three or more generations, believed they were entitled to play by their own rules and dictate terms to "outsiders" like Michael. You saw another view of the same attitude in "Casino," when County Commissioner Webb confronts Ace Rothstein about getting his worthless brother in law reinstated in a juiced-in job. I believe Oli posted that Texans have the same attitude.


Indeed they do TB. However, given my multiple decades of residence in Texas, I guess I'm describing myself.
Posted By: The Last Woltz

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/10/15 12:56 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Very nice touch. That whole scene was very powerful. And realistic:

Prominent Nevadans of that period, who could trace their ancestry in the state back three or more generations, believed they were entitled to play by their own rules and dictate terms to "outsiders" like Michael. You saw another view of the same attitude in "Casino," when County Commissioner Webb confronts Ace Rothstein about getting his worthless brother in law reinstated in a juiced-in job. I believe Oli posted that Texans have the same attitude.


Indeed they do TB. However, given my multiple decades of residence in Texas, I guess I'm describing myself.


Once a yinzer, always a yinzer, Oli. wink
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/11/15 04:09 AM

Originally Posted By: The Last Woltz
Originally Posted By: olivant
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Very nice touch. That whole scene was very powerful. And realistic:

Prominent Nevadans of that period, who could trace their ancestry in the state back three or more generations, believed they were entitled to play by their own rules and dictate terms to "outsiders" like Michael. You saw another view of the same attitude in "Casino," when County Commissioner Webb confronts Ace Rothstein about getting his worthless brother in law reinstated in a juiced-in job. I believe Oli posted that Texans have the same attitude.


Indeed they do TB. However, given my multiple decades of residence in Texas, I guess I'm describing myself.


Once a yinzer, always a yinzer, Oli. wink


Absolutely!
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/12/15 06:35 PM

While watching the GF last night I noticed (again) that Vito's driveways are covered in what looks like gravel. Of course, he could well afford to have a paved driveway. Maybe it it was a production decision. It just seemed out of place.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/15/15 11:58 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
While watching the GF last night I noticed (again) that Vito's driveways are covered in what looks like gravel. Of course, he could well afford to have a paved driveway. Maybe it it was a production decision. It just seemed out of place.

I can't imagine how different the movie would have been if not for the crunching sound that Al Pacino's size five feet made when Michael walked on that gravel towards the end of the film.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/16/15 01:48 AM

I was at an auction at Christie's in NYC a few years ago. One of the items was one of Pacino's suits from III. The guy who could fit into that definitely would wear size 5 shoes.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/16/15 03:21 AM

Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: olivant
While watching the GF last night I noticed (again) that Vito's driveways are covered in what looks like gravel. Of course, he could well afford to have a paved driveway. Maybe it it was a production decision. It just seemed out of place.

I can't imagine how different the movie would have been if not for the crunching sound that Al Pacino's size five feet made when Michael walked on that gravel towards the end of the film.


The gravel was probably a security measure. As Vito told Tom the night Sonny was murdered: "I hear cars coming to the house."
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/24/15 03:26 PM

I waS WATCHING GFII LAST NIGHT, THE SCENE WHERE vITO TAKES THE GUNS FROM cLEMENZA. His wife is looking at him and then he closes the door. It reminded me of Neri closing the door at the end of GFI. In both cases, it seems to symbolize Vito and Michael shutting their wives out of part of their lives.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/27/15 06:22 PM

In GF II, Why did Michael speak to his mother in Italian? She was fluent in English.

Remember that 15 years or so earlier he had to switch to English to get his point across to Sollozzo. So, his Italian wasn't that good.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/28/15 04:43 PM

Oli, I'm guessing that this was an intimate moment twixt son and mother, and he was asking a question whose meaning could only be expressed to his mother in Italian, as would be her answer.
Posted By: Gudfadern

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/03/16 07:16 AM

Probably something already discovered by this boards veterans and never even mentioned, nonetheless, but I just have a comic little something that I liked to share and wanted it to get its attention - and of course it comes from Fredo himself. I read a topic in the Godfather novel forum about things that were comic about the book and got me thinking about something from the beloved flashback scene in II. The moment Michael breaks the news for everyone that he enlisted in the Marines. It's when he says "I did, I enlisted in the Marines", immediately after the sentence is told Fredo cracks a nut open and there is a silent pause until Duvall's line comes. I thought that was a bit of a comic and nice touch. smile
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/24/16 06:22 PM

Been watching the Epic this past week. Probably like many of you, I notice new stuff every time.

So, how did Clemenza figure he could trust Vito when he threw him the guns? He didn't know him.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/24/16 06:28 PM

I'm thinking it was less a matter of trust and more a matter of desperation and proximity. Vito's window was probably the only one near enough for Clem to pass guns, and it seemed like the cops were knocking at his door.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/24/16 10:38 PM

Listen closely to Luca Brasi's footsteps while entering the hotel bar to meet Bruno Tattaglia and Sollozzo.

In between the click and clack of his shoe's sole and heel, you can actually hear the leather stretching under the stress of such a big man.

Just another small thing you notice when watching this great picture again and again and again... smile
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/24/16 11:31 PM

Did anyone else notice that...

After Fredo fails to protect his father from the assassination attempt, he is not seen again until the day Vito returns home from the hospital via ambulance?

Also...

Fabrizio, Calo and Michael are talking about New York/America and Michael only confirms that he is the son of a big shot. At this point, we assume Fabrizio and Calo do not know Michael's last name?

However, when Fabrizio is translating for Michael, he doesn't bat an eye when Michael tells him to tell Vitelli that he is Michael Corleone hiding in Sicily. Wouldn't everybody know exactly who him and his father were as soon as they heard the name? One would think so?

When Vito returned to Sicily and killed Don Ciccio, there was a large can of Genco Olive Oil on the table next to his dead body.
Posted By: CleanBandit

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/25/16 08:20 AM

Mark @ last one, that can be explained due to the nature of the visit. Vito was there asking Don Ciccio for his permission to start the relationship between America and Sicily regarding the company, so he probably brought him a gift.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/25/16 02:48 PM

Originally Posted By: CleanBandit
Mark @ last one, that can be explained due to the nature of the visit. Vito was there asking Don Ciccio for his permission to start the relationship between America and Sicily regarding the company, so he probably brought him a gift.

Thanks, CB. I may not have been clear in my previous post - apologies.

I'm aware of the reason Tomassino & Vito went to talk to Don Ciccio. My point is that the powerful leader of the Corleonesi is assasinated and the "calling card" of a Genco Olive Oil can is found nearby. Maybe it was planned that way - maybe not?

Don Ciccio was in power for decades and it wouldn't take long before everybody in Sicily is familiar with Vito Corleone. Thus my observation that Fabrizio didn't flinch at the name; "Micheli Corleone".

Seems very peculiar that he did not do a double take when translating Michael's conversation with Vitelli.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/25/16 03:49 PM

I'm not seeing what you're seeing. Don Tomassino brought the can with him. He gave it to Ciccio.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/25/16 04:22 PM

Think along the same lines of Vito's killing of Fanucci...
After that, everybody knew who Vito was in the neighborhoods and eventually NYC. He was well on his way to his future empire.

In Sicily, Vito kills the powerful Corleonesi Don Ciccio thus cementing his reputation, power and station. The last people to see Ciccio and his bandits alive were olive oil importers from America. Right next to Ciccio's body is a Genco can. So, his muderer isn't known or even suspected?

Fabrizio acted like the "Corleone" name was Smith or Jones when translating. Wouldn't the entire island of Sicily know the name of the man who killed Ciccio years ago?
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/26/16 06:12 PM

Why did it take so long for Fabrizio to come to the United States after he sold out Michael and killed Appolonia?

I know he was sponsored by Barzini but why? Why wouldn't Barzini just kill Fabrizio after Appolonia was killed?

Simply put, he botched the assasination attempt of Michael... why reward him and bring him to America?

Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/26/16 06:27 PM

In the Godfather Epic, Vito never refers to Santino as "Sonny".

He calls him Santino every time.
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/26/16 06:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark


Simply put, he botched the assasination attempt of Michael... why reward him and bring him to America?



Did he botch it, or was it just bad luck?
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/05/16 10:24 PM

Originally Posted By: mustachepete
Originally Posted By: Mark


Simply put, he botched the assasination attempt of Michael... why reward him and bring him to America?



Did he botch it, or was it just bad luck?

Toemaytoe, toemahtoe. He failed - period. Why didn't Barzini just kill him instead of sponsoring his immigration to the US?

Anyway, did anybody else notice how quickly McCluskey got his plate of veal at the restaurant?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/06/16 03:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark
Anyway, did anybody else notice how quickly McCluskey got his plate of veal at the restaurant?

Zagat's says Louis Restaurant in the Bronx is "famous for quick service."
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/07/16 05:18 AM

TB, didn't you find it curious that it was Tessio who knew about Louis's and not Clemenza? Afterall, the Bronx was Clemenza's turf.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/07/16 03:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: Mark
Anyway, did anybody else notice how quickly McCluskey got his plate of veal at the restaurant?

Zagat's says Louis Restaurant in the Bronx is "famous for quick service."

Of course, how could I forget? It's noted right after the wonderful antique bathroom fixtures and the clientele's propensity to mind one's own business. wink
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/07/16 10:59 PM

Did anyone else notice that...

The last innocent and genuine smile from Michael was when he and Kay are exiting the movie theater. He is forever changed after Kay spots the newspaper featuring Vito's shooting.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/11/16 12:06 AM

In the beginning of the Baptism Scene, they show quick cutaway shots of the assassins preparing for their tasks.

Clemenza is shown leaving his house with the box that contains the gun used to kill the men in the elevator. Before Clemenza gets into his car, he quickly polishes a spot on the car with his handkerchief.

The car finally got the real chrome bumpers from Detroit. The wooden bumpers are gone.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/12/16 01:15 AM

Another nice one:
In the nightclub in Havana, Geary, with one of his most lascivious grins, says, "I'll have one of those red-headed Yolandas." If you look very closely, Michael rolls his eyes as if to say, "There he goes again--thinking with his dick."
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/12/16 01:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Another nice one:
In the nightclub in Havana, Geary, with one of his most lascivious grins, says, "I'll have one of those red-headed Yolandas." If you look very closely, Michael rolls his eyes as if to say, "There he goes again--thinking with his dick."

I just watched that scene, TB. If you notice later at the New Year's Eve party, Geary is happily in the company of an attractive, tall redhead wearing a red dress.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/12/16 03:05 AM

Yes. I believe that was Yolanda. Looks like Fredo delivered ("That you got, con mucho gusto you got it.")

The entire Cuban sequence is a marvel of authenticity. I'm sure the floorshow at the Capri (with Yolanda) was an exact replica of a real Havana hotel show of the era. So, too, was the Superman show. I'm sure you noticed the people attacking parking meters. That really happened. Batista installed parking meters and claimed that the proceeds would go to support a children's hospital. The proceeds found their way into the pockets of Batista's brother in law. Everybody knew it, which was why they attacked the meters.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/12/16 06:03 PM

I am struck by the avariciousness of Vito's mother when she defended Vito against Ciccio by putting a knife to his throat. I wonder if Vito's capacity to murder comes mainly from his mother or father.

As the novel states, his father was murdered because he failed to accommodate a Mafioso, thus evidence of courage and/or stubborness (which the novel states helped shape Vito's demeanor when faced with adversity). On the other hand, his mother tried reason to placate Ciccio, but resorted to violence when reasoning was unproductive.
Posted By: The Last Woltz

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/12/16 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
I am struck by the avariciousness of Vito's mother when she defended Vito against Ciccio by putting a knife to his throat. I wonder if Vito's capacity to murder comes mainly from his mother or father.

As the novel states, his father was murdered because he failed to accommodate a Mafioso, thus evidence of courage and/or stubborness (which the novel states helped shape Vito's demeanor when faced with adversity). On the other hand, his mother tried reason to placate Ciccio, but resorted to violence when reasoning was unproductive.


Well, maybe that's an indication Vito got his violent streak from his mother.

But where did he get his brains? Because that plan of holding a knife to Don Ciccio's throat while surrounded by his buttonmen wasn't too intelligent, to say the least.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/13/16 12:01 AM

Why wasn't Mama Corleone in the surprise party for Vito flashback scene?
Posted By: SC

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/13/16 01:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark
Why wasn't Mama Corleone in the surprise party for Vito flashback scene?


She was out shopping for a nice pear to give Vito for his birthday.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/14/16 06:09 PM

Originally Posted By: SC
Originally Posted By: Mark
Why wasn't Mama Corleone in the surprise party for Vito flashback scene?


She was out shopping for a nice pear to give Vito for his birthday.

lol
Posted By: kingoflittlenewyork

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/14/16 10:23 PM

Where did he gets his brains? Because he had no other choice, he had to make his own way.
My all time favorite scene is when he comes home with nothing to eat but that pear. "What a nice pear", now that a wife!
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/31/16 10:16 PM

When Michael returns to snowy Tahoe and his big black car passes through the gate, the guard closes the gate with a big ADT Home Security logo visible.

lol

Were The Corleone's also using Pinkerton Security Guards?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 04/01/16 06:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark
When Michael returns to snowy Tahoe and his big black car passes through the gate, the guard closes the gate with a big ADT Home Security logo visible.


The big black car is a real rarity: a '58 Chrysler Imperial Crown Ghia limo, one of <25 built by Ghia of Turin and, at ~$14k, the most expensive American car of that year. Anyone could have found a Cadillac limo of that era--trust FFC to use this rarity for six seconds in GFII.

BTW: If you look closely at the windshield of the red and black '58 Ford Custom 500 that Michael drives to his meeting with Roth in Miami, you'll see a Florida vehicle inspection sticker from the Seventies. lol
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 04/01/16 11:22 PM

That car is absolutely beautiful. I would love to have that vehicle. Is it still around?
Posted By: hoodlum

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 04/02/16 06:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: Mark
Anyway, did anybody else notice how quickly McCluskey got his plate of veal at the restaurant?

Zagat's says Louis Restaurant in the Bronx is "famous for quick service."
lol
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 04/02/16 08:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark
That car is absolutely beautiful. I would love to have that vehicle. Is it still around?

Not likely you'll easily find one of the Ghia limos, given that so few were built. Try www.hemmings.com. I saw a few regular (non-Ghia) Imperials of that era for sale. They're very elegant. Some ragtops, too.
Posted By: Professor_M

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 04/03/16 02:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: Mark
Anyway, did anybody else notice how quickly McCluskey got his plate of veal at the restaurant?

Zagat's says Louis Restaurant in the Bronx is "famous for quick service."


That same maitre-d' later went to serve Cardinal Lamberto in Rome. Remember how quickly Michael got the orange juice and candy?
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/08/16 10:56 PM

In the Epic there's a scene that takes place during the communion celebration. It's sandwiched between the Geary meeting and Kay running after Tony.

Rocco and some of the guys are standing between two cars and Rocco appears to be balling out another wiseguy about something. Rocco appears rather animated. It's an odd scene because it has no explanation and doesn't fit in with any other scene. Any ideas?
Posted By: The Last Woltz

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/09/16 12:58 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
In the Epic there's a scene that takes place during the communion celebration. It's sandwiched between the Geary meeting and Kay running after Tony.

Rocco and some of the guys are standing between two cars and Rocco appears to be balling out another wiseguy about something. Rocco appears rather animated. It's an odd scene because it has no explanation and doesn't fit in with any other scene. Any ideas?


Oli:

If it's the scene I'm thinking of, Anthony is with Rocco and the other guys, and the camera cuts to Kay watching them.

I think the point is to foreshadow Kay's concern about the environment in which Anthony is being raised and, in particular, her "Anthony's friends are your buttonmen!" comment to Michael during their argument in DC.
Posted By: The Last Woltz

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/09/16 01:01 PM

We often say that every time we watch the Trilogy we see something we never noticed before.

I have one from watching the Epic the other day:

When Connie's wedding cake is being carried through the crowd, Nazorine is walking in front of it making "hey, look how awesome I am" gestures.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/09/16 01:25 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
In the Epic there's a scene that takes place during the communion celebration. It's sandwiched between the Geary meeting and Kay running after Tony.

Rocco and some of the guys are standing between two cars and Rocco appears to be balling out another wiseguy about something. Rocco appears rather animated. It's an odd scene because it has no explanation and doesn't fit in with any other scene. Any ideas?

I remember that scene well, oli. It seems that anyone in charge of a group of people is eventually going to have to kick some butt. The underling most likely screwed something up (dinged a VIP's auto, was rude to a member of law enforcement, etc?) resulting in reprimand.

As discussed in many threads, there were obvious differences between the opening celebrations of GF1 & GF2. In the first movie, the FBI at the wedding were spit at, cursed at and treated poorly. At the communion party, the lawmen appeared to be treated like guests. The Troopers were served drinks and sandwiches even appearing to be another level of Michael's security.

Interesting how Sonny was biting at the Feds in GF1 and Rocco was biting at his guys in GF2. That's what I took away from that Rocco chewing out scene.

Of course, it's difficult not to offer some sarcastic scenarios...

One of the underlings accidently groped Deana during her & Fredo's arrival. Deana begged Rocco for the man's phone number?

Rocco was chewing out the guy who was driving the car that picked Connie up at the airport - a week ago. Hey, there was no Uber back then. Maybe he got lost?

Rocco was chewing out the guy because he forgot to pick up the over-sized check at Staples for the photo op with Senator Geary and Michael Car-lee-on.
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/12/16 05:11 PM

In GF2, when they get to Florida and Michael drives while his bodyguard occupies the back seat, is that some Mafia technique or are they emphasizing that the bodyguard is an old country guy who couldn't cope with modern traffic? Or something else?
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/13/16 12:50 AM

Originally Posted By: mustachepete
In GF2, when they get to Florida and Michael drives while his bodyguard occupies the back seat, is that some Mafia technique or are they emphasizing that the bodyguard is an old country guy who couldn't cope with modern traffic? Or something else?


It's just a strategy to protect Michael.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/13/16 01:36 AM

Originally Posted By: olivant
Originally Posted By: mustachepete
In GF2, when they get to Florida and Michael drives while his bodyguard occupies the back seat, is that some Mafia technique or are they emphasizing that the bodyguard is an old country guy who couldn't cope with modern traffic? Or something else?


It's just a strategy to protect Michael.

Yes. Notice that the bodyguard is looking around while Michael is driving--he's doing his job.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/13/16 01:40 PM

Fanucci jumps into the truck Vito is driving with the balance of the dresses they stolen.

They discuss the terms of Fanucci's end of the score.

Fanucci grabs the dresses for his daughters and reminds Vito that they all three owe him $200 a piece.

When doing so, Fanucci puts up his hand in the form of a peace sign to indicate the $200.

In Italy, Sicily and Sardinia, the correct way to indicate 1 is a thumb. Wouldn't the 2 be a thumb and index finger... and not a index finger and middle finger?
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/13/16 10:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark
In Italy, Sicily and Sardinia, the correct way to indicate 1 is a thumb. Wouldn't the 2 be a thumb and index finger... and not a index finger and middle finger?


Even though Fanucci is a Sicilian in the novel, in the film's screenplay he is a Neapolitan. Perhaps therein lies the answer?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/19/16 01:58 AM

When Sonny goes charging out to confront the FBI guys parked outside Connie's wedding, Paulie follows him at a safe distance. After Sonny spits on the FBI guy's I.D., and turns to go back inside, Paulie, still at a safe distance, makes the sine of the "cornudo" (two fingers) at the FBI guy. Coward!
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/19/16 12:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
When Sonny goes charging out to confront the FBI guys parked outside Connie's wedding, Paulie follows him at a safe distance. After Sonny spits on the FBI guy's I.D., and turns to go back inside, Paulie, still at a safe distance, makes the sine of the "cornudo" (two fingers) at the FBI guy. Coward!

lol Yes, I noticed that, TB. Also, in that same scene, Paulie has his hand half way under his jacket appearing ready to draw a weapon. Really? You're gonna pull a weapon on the FBI at The Corleone Mall on the day of Connie's wedding? lol
Posted By: johnny ola

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/28/16 09:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Very nice touch. That whole scene was very powerful. And realistic:

Prominent Nevadans of that period, who could trace their ancestry in the state back three or more generations, believed they were entitled to play by their own rules and dictate terms to "outsiders" like Michael. You saw another view of the same attitude in "Casino," when County Commissioner Webb confronts Ace Rothstein about getting his worthless brother in law reinstated in a juiced-in job. I believe Oli posted that Texans have the same attitude.



Great scene in Casino.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L5Zx34mjUU

"your people will never understand how things work out here"
Posted By: johnny ola

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/28/16 09:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: Mark
When Michael returns to snowy Tahoe and his big black car passes through the gate, the guard closes the gate with a big ADT Home Security logo visible.


The big black car is a real rarity: a '58 Chrysler Imperial Crown Ghia limo, one of <25 built by Ghia of Turin and, at ~$14k, the most expensive American car of that year. Anyone could have found a Cadillac limo of that era--trust FFC to use this rarity for six seconds in GFII.

BTW: If you look closely at the windshield of the red and black '58 Ford Custom 500 that Michael drives to his meeting with Roth in Miami, you'll see a Florida vehicle inspection sticker from the Seventies. lol



Just one of the non stereotypical cars Mike rode around in. Seems the only time he rode in a black Cadillac, is when he came back from Italy, and found Kay. The first limo we see him in post Cadillac was the Packard. Great job on describing what the car was It really is a rarity. Took me a while to understand the difference between a Chrysler, Chrysler Imperial and Imperial. This car is different from all three.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/29/16 01:39 AM

Originally Posted By: johnny ola
The first limo we see him in post Cadillac was the Packard.

If I'm not mistaken, the next limo we see Michael in after the New Hampshire Cad ['47?], was a '54 Imperial as he was pulling up to Moe Greene's hotel.
Posted By: johnny ola

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/30/16 01:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: johnny ola
The first limo we see him in post Cadillac was the Packard.

If I'm not mistaken, the next limo we see Michael in after the New Hampshire Cad ['47?], was a '54 Imperial as he was pulling up to Moe Greene's hotel.



Good eye.....but did we actually see him in the car? LOL Look closely at the pic. It looks like Fredo in the front seat looking toward the back seat. I would guess that Mike was in the back seat.

Was this Mikes car, or was it Moe Greenes? [img]http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_8442-Chrysler-Crown-Imperial-C-66-1954.html[/img]

Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/30/16 09:35 PM

May have been the Hotel's "VIP" limo. For that matter, the '58 Ghia Imperial may have been a de luxe airport limo for Michael, not his own ride. He may have had more modest tastes. For example: The car that Kay tries to go shopping in, and was stopped at the gate to the Tahoe compound, was a '57 Buick Special wagon (note the plain-Jane interior), a far cry from the higher end Roadmaster wagon. The rental car that Michael drove to Roth's house was a low-end '58 Ford Custom 500.

For this car buff, GFII is paradise for Fifties classics.
Posted By: Guiseppe Petri

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/01/16 02:30 AM

Yeah, tough guy Paulie with his hand on a gun in front of the fbi.

Also noticed today after watching g2 for the 1000th time - noticed the look on johnny fontaines face when Mike presents the " offer " to appear in Vegas and for some of johnnys' friends to do so also - the look is almost like " I knew there would be huge favors asked ".

When barzini is walking through that building prior to bring shot by neri, he is all alone, no bodyguard, no witnesses. That would have been the perfect time to take him out. They could have had 2 or 3 guys in there with knives, stab him to death, walk out and nobody would have known what happened.
Posted By: johnny ola

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/01/16 03:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
May have been the Hotel's "VIP" limo. For that matter, the '58 Ghia Imperial may have been a de luxe airport limo for Michael, not his own ride. He may have had more modest tastes. For example: The car that Kay tries to go shopping in, and was stopped at the gate to the Tahoe compound, was a '57 Buick Special wagon (note the plain-Jane interior), a far cry from the higher end Roadmaster wagon. The rental car that Michael drove to Roth's house was a low-end '58 Ford Custom 500.

For this car buff, GFII is paradise for Fifties classics.


Yes it is. The only other Cadillac limo we see,that might be connected with Mike, could be the 56 Cadillac limo parked outside of the Washington Hotel. With its custom rear window, it appear to be a Derham custom.

It does appear with Mike's modest taste in cars, he wanted to keep a low profile. [img]http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_697863.html[/img]
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/01/16 04:51 PM

To continue this pleasant automotive hair-splitting:
That Derham Cad was a real find. But, the Checker cab alongside it is a post-Fifties model. What looks like a '56 Buick is waiting at the intersection ahead of the hotel. But the bus beyond it is a Sixties-model GM.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/01/16 04:53 PM

Another nice touch: In Havana, after Roth finishes his soliloquey and goes to take a nap, notice the patronizing look on Johnny Ola's face as he stares at Michael. It's as if he's saying, "You may think you're a bigshot, Michael, but you're a bush-leaguer compared to Mr. Roth."
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/01/16 05:56 PM

TB, I interpreted Ola's look as an uncomfortable one, but nothing more. Although Ola apparently worked for Roth, he was Mafioso as Michael was. I never understood how he rationalized his allegiance to Roth instead of to other Mafiosi.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/02/16 08:09 PM

Oli, as I'm sure you know, Johnny Ola is based on a real-life character: Vincent (Jimmy Blue Eyes) Alo (name is an anagram), long-time associate and friend of Meyer Lansky. Alo was a captain-level Mafioso who basically ran interference for Lansky with the Mob. He was not subservient as Johnny Ola is portrayed. Why'd FFC portray Ola that way? Made for a more interesting character is my guess.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/03/16 01:08 AM

I think this has been discussed before on the Board, but I can't remember for sure.

Why wasn't Fredo at his father's funeral?

Also can you car guys tell me what was the make and model of the black and silver car that led Vito's ambulance from the hospital?
Posted By: SC

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/03/16 02:00 AM

Originally Posted By: olivant
I think this has been discussed before on the Board, but I can't remember for sure.

Why wasn't Fredo at his father's funeral?



Fredo WAS there at the funeral. For whatever reason, he wasn't shown in most of the scenes (especially any close-up shots). But you can see him getting out of one of the cars as the funeral procession first arrived at the cemetery.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/03/16 02:13 AM

Originally Posted By: SC
Originally Posted By: olivant
I think this has been discussed before on the Board, but I can't remember for sure.

Why wasn't Fredo at his father's funeral?



Fredo WAS there at the funeral. For whatever reason, he wasn't shown in most of the scenes (especially any close-up shots). But you can see him getting out of one of the cars as the funeral procession first arrived at the cemetery.




Okay, I'll look for that in the Epic. But I wonder why FFC didn't group Fredo, Connie, Michael , and Tom in one of the funeral scenes.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/03/16 03:18 AM

Originally Posted By: olivant
Also can you car guys tell me what was the make and model of the black and silver car that led Vito's ambulance from the hospital?

It's a '46 Cadillac Series 62. The two-tone paint is an anomaly--it wasn't a factory option. You see Clemenza getting into the passenger side, but it's not the same '46 Cad that was in his garage in a deleted scene.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/03/16 03:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: olivant
Also can you car guys tell me what was the make and model of the black and silver car that led Vito's ambulance from the hospital?

It's a '46 Cadillac Series 62. The two-tone paint is an anomaly--it wasn't a factory option. You see Clemenza getting into the passenger side, but it's not the same '46 Cad that was in his garage in a deleted scene.


Thanks TB. Also, to SC: on Youtube I watched the funeral scene and saw Mama being escorted by Tom followed by Fredo.
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/06/16 01:19 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant


Okay, I'll look for that in the Epic. But I wonder why FFC didn't group Fredo, Connie, Michael , and Tom in one of the funeral scenes.


This is pure guesswork: there's a lingering shot of Clemenza at the casket, and Michael watching him like a hawk, just before Tessio closes on Barzini just for a second and then comes to Michael. So my guess is that there could some footage of Michael watching Fredo closely, which would require that Fredo be at a distance.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/06/16 02:40 PM

Pete, since I posted my question, I looked at the funeral scene several times based on what SC posted about it. Here's what I
saw.

There's a closeup of the line of limos at the funeral as Dons exit them. Once that finishes, at the distant end of the limo line, you'll see a women in black exit a limo. She's wearing a headdress (just like Mama wears in the shot of seated Corleones). Yes, in both scenes it's Mama. In that distant shot, you can make out Tom escorting her and right behind them is Fredo.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/08/16 11:58 PM

When Michael asks Johnny Ola what he wanted to drink, Ola replies, "Anisette" in a way that made you think he just invented the liquor. lol
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/31/16 02:49 PM

When watching the Epic, I have to ask when did Vito acquire his rowing skills. Remember the scene when he goes after Strollo in the rowboat? He not only rows out to him, but stands up while doing it. Quite a feat.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/31/16 06:58 PM

Perhaps he rowed his way to America after narrowly escaping Don Ciccio's clutches. lol
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/01/16 12:33 AM

Also, Batista is telling the party attendees in Spanish that the rebels are closing in. About halfway through his speech, Michael turns to leave the party. Why? Michael doesn't understand Spanish and there's no translator in evidence.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/01/16 03:22 AM

Also, notice Questadt, the Senate lawyer, sitting behind Roth in that scene.
Posted By: Guiseppe Petri

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/01/16 04:16 PM

In the saga version, when fabrizo is leaving his pizza shop, he walks around to get into his car, he unlocks the door and the drivers side window is down. I'm sure ffc did it for effect, but he could have just pulled the door knob up and unlocked it.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/13/16 03:12 AM

Well, speaking of car windows:
When Michael is being driven around Cuba in a '57 Mercury Montclair, the bodyguard rolls up the window when little kids approach the car trying to sell newspapers. But later, when the police stop the car to arrest a guerilla, you see power window controls on the driver's side door.

FFC was a fanatic about details, and that car is an example of perfection: It's in relatively good shape, and has the original cream and turquoise factory paint, but the bumper is kind of lopsided, indicating hard use. It also has a tinny, European sounding horn--exactly what a Latino driver of that era would have added to an American car.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/27/16 09:26 PM

During the II flashback scene, Tessio states that 30,000 men signed up (presumably for the Army) this morning. What morning? As Sonny states, the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor on Pop's birthday - December 7. By my reckoning, it would have been 2PM on Sunday in New York. Again, what morning? Even if the morning in question was that Sunday, what recruiting office woul dbe open?
Posted By: Mark

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/28/16 01:57 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
During the II flashback scene, Tessio states that 30,000 men signed up (presumably for the Army) this morning. What morning? As Sonny states, the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor on Pop's birthday - December 7. By my reckoning, it would have been 2PM on Sunday in New York. Again, what morning? Even if the morning in question was that Sunday, what recruiting office woul dbe open?

That whole scene fascinates me. I understand that Brando was suppose to be in it but pulled a "no-show"? The script was hastily rewritten to accommodate his absence so some details were fuzzy? Also, why wasn't Morgana King in the flashback scene? That scene could have been so much greater... not that it wasn't good as is.
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/28/16 02:14 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
During the II flashback scene, Tessio states that 30,000 men signed up (presumably for the Army) this morning. What morning? As Sonny states, the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor on Pop's birthday - December 7. By my reckoning, it would have been 2PM on Sunday in New York. Again, what morning? Even if the morning in question was that Sunday, what recruiting office woul dbe open?


I did a quick search, found a website that said the New Orleans office opened on December 7, but of course that would have been afternoon, too, and it also said only 15 guys signed up that day. Maybe he heard that 30,000 Japanese enlisted?
Posted By: The Last Woltz

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/29/16 12:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark
Originally Posted By: olivant
During the II flashback scene, Tessio states that 30,000 men signed up (presumably for the Army) this morning. What morning? As Sonny states, the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor on Pop's birthday - December 7. By my reckoning, it would have been 2PM on Sunday in New York. Again, what morning? Even if the morning in question was that Sunday, what recruiting office woul dbe open?

That whole scene fascinates me. I understand that Brando was suppose to be in it but pulled a "no-show"? The script was hastily rewritten to accommodate his absence so some details were fuzzy? Also, why wasn't Morgana King in the flashback scene? That scene could have been so much greater... not that it wasn't good as is.


Vito's influence on all the men in the scene was powerful and, ultimately, destructive. Having him as an invisible spectre really emphasizes how his legacy is still impactful years later. It also shows how he was the central force holding a very disparate group of people together - something nobody else could manage.

I think having Vito actually there would have made the scene less powerful.
Posted By: blueracing347

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/29/16 02:34 PM

Don't we hear Vito's voice as they (the family) start singing: for he's a jolly good fellow? Was that Brando?
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/31/16 05:01 PM

Don't you think that Sonny uses Tessio more as an errand boy? He orders Tessio to recruit men after Vito is shot; he sends Tessio to see what was delivered at the gate; he orders Tessio to escort Mike to Louie's. Clemenza appears to be used by Sonny for more important matters such as training Michael and explaining to Michael the strategy for the Sollozzo meeting.
Posted By: dixiemafia

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/31/16 08:34 PM

Well I'd say Tessio was pretty important in picking up Michael after the double hit.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/31/16 11:28 PM

Originally Posted By: dixiemafia
Well I'd say Tessio was pretty important in picking up Michael after the double hit.


That is a job that any competent soldier could have done.
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/31/16 11:56 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
Don't you think that Sonny uses Tessio more as an errand boy? He orders Tessio to recruit men after Vito is shot; he sends Tessio to see what was delivered at the gate; he orders Tessio to escort Mike to Louie's. Clemenza appears to be used by Sonny for more important matters such as training Michael and explaining to Michael the strategy for the Sollozzo meeting.


This could be a remnant of what's in the book. Tessio's at much more of a distance from the main family at the start of the book (as I've written before, he's not even mentioned at the wedding), so it could be that in bulking up the character for the movie Puzo and Coppola gave Tessio a lot of the little transactional stuff that has to be assigned to some character when you have a limited cast.
Posted By: SC

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/01/16 12:27 AM

Originally Posted By: olivant
Don't you think that Sonny uses Tessio more as an errand boy? He orders Tessio to recruit men after Vito is shot; he sends Tessio to see what was delivered at the gate; he orders Tessio to escort Mike to Louie's. Clemenza appears to be used by Sonny for more important matters such as training Michael and explaining to Michael the strategy for the Sollozzo meeting.


A lot of Clemenza's "importance" came from the fact that Richard Castellano was the biggest star (besides Brando) in the cast at that time. His role in the movie was beefed up because of that. The novel tended to show Tessio as being smarter. Tessio's role was somewhat lessened in the movie.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/15/16 12:33 AM

At the funeral, Tom asks Mike "Do you know how their gonna come at you?"

After "You're out Tom", how is it that Tom seems to be in the know now?
Posted By: dixiemafia

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/15/16 12:57 AM

I think even though "Tom was out" he was still in the know in most family matters and would know how the family traitor would come at Michael. It seems Tom was one of the most trusted "sons" of Vito in my opinion.

Just like how they are seated at the funeral, I know it was for the movie sake, but that would also show Tom was thought of as a son in all matters.

Kind of like how even though Michael had nothing to do in the family matters, after Vito was shot he was there in the meeting figuring how who needed to be killed even though he was not in the family yet per se. (the 1st meeting I mean, where Sonny said Paulie had to be killed)
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/15/16 07:28 AM

Oli, Michael was The Great Manipulator. He used Tom whenever he needed him (i.e., after Vito died, and Michael needed Tom as consigliere; after the Tahoe shooting, when Michael needed Tom because he was the only one he could trust). At other times, Tom was just "my lawyer."
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/25/16 07:24 PM

Ya'll probably have noticed this and I'd like to get your opinions.

When Michael meets with Geary and he discloses that he knows about the intended move against the Tropagala, Mike looks over at Tom with a "how the hell did he find out" kind of look. In response, Tom looks a little sheepish as if it was his fault. Mike looks at Tom that same way as Geary is leaving and Tom looks back in the same sheepish way.

Do ya'll think that the looks indicate that Mike is blaming Tom and that To, in return, feels guilty?
Posted By: SinatraClub

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/12/16 04:07 AM

This is the first time I noticed this, but during the Connie's wedding, when Barzini arrives, a young Carmine Lupartazzi is right behind him smoking a cigar. Also at Connie's wedding, when Sonny is sitting at the table and picks up the cigarette, he drops ash on his tux. And when Michael murders McClusky, he shoots him the neck first, and the camera pans out, yet you can clearly see the bullet hole to his head, with a little trickle of blood in this shot, prior to the camera cutting back to the close up, the bullet hole not being there now, Michael shoots him again and it comes back.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/12/16 08:26 PM

Yes, that was poor film cutting. Another example: when Sonny is killed, you see bullet holes appear on his '41 Lincoln Connie, then disappear, then appear again.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/16/16 06:22 PM

True TB. But, did you notice that when Michael talks to Johnny about the casinos, Johnny's commitment is to Vito, not Michael or the Corleones. Also, Michael says that the favor he's asking of Johnny is for Vito, not him. Revealing.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/16/16 06:46 PM

Yes. "You know I'd do anything for my godfather."
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/20/16 06:34 PM

A few things:

When they all meet after Vito is shot:

Sonny tells Michael to call Luca. Michael goes right to the phone and starts to dial. How does he know the phone number? He's been away for years and even if he wasn't, how would he know?

Also, Tom says to Sonny "If your father dies ..." Why "your"? Why not "If Pop dies ...."?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/21/16 03:24 AM

Originally Posted By: olivant
A few things:

When they all meet after Vito is shot:

Sonny tells Michael to call Luca. Michael goes right to the phone and starts to dial. How does he know the phone number? He's been away for years and even if he wasn't, how would he know?

Luca had a vanity telephone number: 1-800-MURDER. lol

Quote:
Also, Tom says to Sonny "If your father dies ..." Why "your"? Why not "If Pop dies ...."?

Tom was punctilious about not being overly familiar with or about Vito--partly because he was acting in his official capacity as consigliere. Also, the novel tells us that Vito told Tom never to forget his own father, so I assume Vito thought it would be disrespectful of Tom's father if Tom called Vito "Pop."
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/23/16 06:13 PM

When Michael and Kay pass the newsstand and then return to it, it appears to be unmanned - no vendor. Thus, it appears that Michael steals the newspaper.

Was it a self-serve newspaper stand?
Posted By: dixiemafia

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/23/16 07:26 PM

Yea I always wondered that too. Nobody was even there....lol
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/25/16 05:41 AM

Also, at the end of II, Michael is wearing a wedding ring.
Posted By: Lou_Para

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/26/16 04:23 AM

I believe that Sonny says to Mike "try Luca again" implying that Mike had already called Luca and so would know the number.
My favorite part of this scene is when they open the package and Tessio says "it's a Sicilian message. It means Luca Brazzi sleeps with the fishes", the way Mike just hangs up the phone is great.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/26/16 03:12 PM

Clemenza said that, not Tessio.
Posted By: Lou_Para

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/26/16 04:50 PM

Good catch. It's funny,as many times as I've watched that scene,I never really listened to the voice. I assumed that it was Tessio because he handed Sonny the package. They don't show anyone's face while the line is delivered.
I swear up until now,I would have bet that it was Tessio. That's why I love this board.As many times as I've seen the movies and the Epic,there's still stuff I learn from the posters here.
Posted By: SC

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/26/16 05:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Lou_Para

I swear up until now,I would have bet that it was Tessio. That's why I love this board.As many times as I've seen the movies and the Epic,there's still stuff I learn from the posters here.



There was a long debate over this point some years ago here on the GBB. Many assumed it was Tessio who spoke that line simply because he was the one holding the vest. And it is amazing how many members noticed small details that most others may not have picked up on.
Posted By: Lou_Para

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/26/16 05:37 PM

Originally Posted By: SC
Originally Posted By: Lou_Para

I swear up until now,I would have bet that it was Tessio. That's why I love this board.As many times as I've seen the movies and the Epic,there's still stuff I learn from the posters here.



There was a long debate over this point some years ago here on the GBB. Many assumed it was Tessio who spoke that line simply because he was the one holding the vest. And it is amazing how many members noticed small details that most others may not have picked up on.

You got that right. When I re-watched the scene,and listened to the voice,it couldn't have been more clear that it was Clemenza. I guess when the package is shown,our attention is drawn more to the visual impact.
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/26/16 06:05 PM

Hagen has the biggest part of the line in the book. I never would have guessed that, though I've read it uncountable times.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/26/16 06:17 PM

Originally Posted By: mustachepete
Hagen has the biggest part of the line in the book. I never would have guessed that, though I've read it uncountable times.


True Pete. It's interesting decision by Puzo to have that line spoken by Tom and to change it in the film to "the fishes."
Posted By: dixiemafia

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/26/16 06:46 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
Clemenza said that, not Tessio.


Yep you are correct. There was some trivia deal about The Godfather online and folks were raising hell in the comment section that Tessio said it. Even after I copied and pasted the damn script where it clearly says Clemenza said it, they still want to try and say it was Tessio lol
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/01/17 06:17 PM

Michael learns of Vito's injuries and returns to the mall. Upon entering the house, he asks Teresa if anyone has heard from Tom. Why? How does Michael know about Tom's kidnapping? If he doesn't know, why does he ask anything about Tom?

Also, why is it bad luck for you (Tom) as Sollozzo tells Tom if you don't make that deal?
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/04/17 04:22 AM

After Kay tells Michael that Connie wants Michael to be the Godfather of their baby, Michael and Kay get out of the car and it seems Michael is the one who puts his arm around Anthony and walks with him whilst Kay just walls on

Also the way Kay was holding Carlo and Connie's baby during the baptism, the baby's head was rolling, the neck and head were not supported like Kay had never held a baby before!

Michael and Kay nearly blinded the baby when they were untying the bonnet!

When the Gold phone was being passed around the table in Havana, Michael and Roth glared at the other contemptuously when each had the phone

At the superman club in Havana just after Michael realises Fredo is the traitor in the family, he was gutted, distraught etc. and seemed sort of disorientated
The woman on Michael's left looks bewildered and couldn't take her eyes off him

At the senate hearing when Geary says during his spiel, extolling the virtues of Italian Americans “some of my very best friends are Italian Americans” the man smoking a pipe, who was sitting left of Geary sort of sniggers
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/04/17 10:02 PM

At the New Year's Even show at the Capri in Havana, when Geary says, "I'll try one of those red-headed Yolandas," Michael rolls his eyes, as if to say, "There he goes again."
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/07/17 03:39 AM

When Connie was asking for money from Michael, towards the end Michael says to Connie
“If you don't listen to me......and marry this man.......you'll disappoint me”

Only Michael Corleone can make even a simple “you'll disappoint me” sound threatening!

Anyway it seems Connie ended up not marrying this man! [Merle Johnson]

Just before Clemenza throwing his guns to young Vito through the window scene, presumably Little Italy buzzing with market stalls, traders, shoppers etc.
A woman had her basket over her elbow and was looking through some items in the stall A man casually steals an item from her basket and walks off


When Michael was visiting Roth in Miami, Michael seemed amazed and peeved to see how Roth was living a 'normal' suburban life, his neighbours unaware / nobody [including Roth's wife Marcia [who addressed Michael as Mr Paul in Havana] knowing Roth was Mafioso

Roth's house was unassuming in an unassuming street. Garage open even the front door not locked
[Then again Johnny Ola who went in just before Michael might have left the door open!] but seemed Ola just walked in too

Even inside, the house was modest, sparsely furnished and tuna sandwich for lunch!

What does Roth who always makes money for his partners [and for himself] do with all that money?!

Whereas Michael was living in a fortress with sentry, armed guards, dogs etc. and yet assassins were able to spray his bedroom with bullets!

And Michael's sheepish embarrassment when Roth said "heard you had some trouble”
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/07/17 03:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Lana

What does Roth who always makes money for his partners [and for himself] do with all that money?!



He uses it to make other money. That's what money's for.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/07/17 06:15 PM

Originally Posted By: mustachepete
Originally Posted By: Lana

What does Roth who always makes money for his partners [and for himself] do with all that money?!



He uses it to make other money. That's what money's for.

The real-life Meyer Lansky, on whom Roth is based, also lived modestly--as did many Mob higher-ups--the better not to call attention to himself and his wealth. Income tax evasion has put more Mob higher-ups in prison than RICO.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/23/17 04:02 AM

It's been posted here before by me and others about the flashback scene and the 30,000 enlistments. However, I was watching an AHC Pearl Harbor documentary which prompts me to post again.

In New York, it was about 2:30 PM on December 7 when the Japanese attacked Pearl (and Vito's birthday). So, how is it that anyone enlisted "this morning" as Tessio states in the flashback scene in response to the attack? Also, I attributed Michael's enlistment in the Marines as a response to the Pearl Harbor attack, an enlistment which took place before the attack.

Like so many other things, I guess we'll know the answers when we get to Heaven. That being the case, some of us will never know the answers.
Posted By: SC

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/23/17 06:47 AM

Originally Posted By: olivant
In New York, it was about 2:30 PM on December 7 when the Japanese attacked Pearl (and Vito's birthday). So, how is it that anyone enlisted "this morning" as Tessio states in the flashback scene in response to the attack? Also, I attributed Michael's enlistment in the Marines as a response to the Pearl Harbor attack, an enlistment which took place before the attack.


You're off by one hour, oli, but your argument is correct. It was 1:00 in the afternoon NYC time when the attack on Pearl Harbor took place. And since it was a Sunday the local enlistment offices would probably have been closed.

To add to the error in film detail, it was still light out when that scene took place (you can see daylight in the window behind the dining room). Sunset in NY in early December is at 4:30 in the afternoon - only three hours after the attack took place.

You REALLY wanna split hairs? That day was unseasonably warm in NYC. My mother used to tell the story that because it was so warm she put my sister in the baby carriage (my sister was six months old then) and took her outside to get some sunshine and fresh air in the afternoon. As my mom was pushing the carriage down the block she was singing to my sister. One of the neighbors yelled at my mother for singing on such a day. My mom had no idea what she meant and she asked the neighbor why she was yelling. The neighbor told her that it had been on the radio for 30 minutes already that the base in Hawaii had been attacked. Anyway, it's doubtful Tessio would have been wearing a heavy overcoat then. (OK, OK, that's dumping on details).
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/23/17 04:34 PM

SC, I forgot about Tessio's overcoat. It is an important inconsistency given the warmth of the day as is picking up a specialty cake (from Nazorine, no doubt) on a Sunday.

I wonder why FFC worked Pearl Harbor into the script anyway. Michael's enlistment could have been introduced through any number of scenarios.
Posted By: SC

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/23/17 06:01 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
SC, I forgot about Tessio's overcoat. It is an important inconsistency given the warmth of the day as is picking up a specialty cake (from Nazorine, no doubt) on a Sunday.

I wonder why FFC worked Pearl Harbor into the script anyway. Michael's enlistment could have been introduced through any number of scenarios.


I think the weather of that day is such a trivial thing that hardly anyone would know is really not worthy of discussion here. The only reason I know of it is that it figured big in my mother's recollection of that day (although one could look it up online on some internet site). As far as the cake goes, I suspect that Nazorine would have felt honored to show his respect for Vito on Vito's 50th birthday by baking a special goodie.

FFC may have used the Pearl Harbor story as the catalyst for Mike to enlist to further his showing that Mike was more "American" (i.e. more "modern") than the rest of the family. That obviously changed after Vito was almost killed by the shooting outside his office.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/23/17 08:22 PM

Well, if we really want to get into inconsistencies on that date:
Vito's birthdate, accoding to his tombstone in GF, was April 29, 1887. How'd it get moved to Dec. 7 in the flashback scene? Probably so FFC and Puzo could write a comic line for Fredo: "Japs didn't know it was Pop's birthday."
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/23/17 08:57 PM

The Pearl Harbor timing issue goes away if the party is held after Vito's birthday, right? I realize that raises other questions, as the little girls appear to have been dressed for church.
Posted By: SC

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/23/17 10:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Well, if we really want to get into inconsistencies on that date:
Vito's birthdate, accoding to his tombstone in GF, was April 29, 1887. How'd it get moved to Dec. 7 in the flashback scene?


Clearly Part 1 and Part 2 had different timelines. Part 2 had Vito's age as nine when he came to America in 1901; that just doesn't agree with his tombstone in Part 1.

FFC usually is pretty good with details like these but I guess even he couldn't imagine the scrutiny these things would be getting so many years after the movies were made.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/23/17 11:42 PM

Originally Posted By: mustachepete
The Pearl Harbor timing issue goes away if the party is held after Vito's birthday, right? I realize that raises other questions, as the little girls appear to have been dressed for church.


Exactly Pete. Why didn't FFC have Vito's birthday on Monday. That would solve the 30,000 men enlisted chronological problem as well as Michael's enlistment.

By the way, why did Pop have to pull strings to get Michael a deferment? During the early part of the War, college students were exempt.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/24/17 02:00 AM

Originally Posted By: olivant

By the way, why did Pop have to pull strings to get Michael a deferment? During the early part of the War, college students were exempt.

US instituted a draft lottery in September 1940. A student deferment was available, but I'm guessing that Michael didn't apply for one. Another guess: Vito (through Tom) automatically got deferments for everyone he valued, including button men. The novel says Paulie Gatto had a deferment (mental issues, "shock treatments") courtesy of Vito.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/25/17 02:59 AM

Cicci murders Cuneo(?) in the revolving door. Now, what if Cuneo was not the last one to enter the revolving door? He might have been trailed by a bodyguard, an acquaintance, or a family member which would have made Cuneo's murder significantly more challenging or precluded it completely.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/25/17 06:58 AM

Maybe Cuneo was slippin' wink
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/26/17 05:39 AM

In III, Michael states that Zasa owns what used to be the Corleone family. However, we never hear the name of Zasa's family. I guess we should assume that it is called the Zasa family. But I just thought that was a curious thing to leave to guessing.
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/26/17 05:47 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
Cicci murders Cuneo(?) in the revolving door. Now, what if Cuneo was not the last one to enter the revolving door? He might have been trailed by a bodyguard, an acquaintance, or a family member which would have made Cuneo's murder significantly more challenging or precluded it completely.


To pull this off, especially in the movie version, it seems like there has to be some cooperation from inside the other families, so perhaps Cuneo was led to slaughter?
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/27/17 07:13 PM

While watching the flashback scene this weekend, I noticed something else. I've posted before that Michael sits on the right side of the table while everyone else is on the left side except Sonny who sits at the head. Thus, FFC illustrates Michael's estrangement (to an extent) from his family. However, I noticed how Sonny dismisses some of the family. He tells Connie to, essentially, shut up; he orders Fredo to get him a drink. He insinuates that Tom is a Jap-lover. Of course, he physically assaults Michael and demeans him.

So, coming at the end of the movie, it's a cogent summation of what we just viewed during the previous 6-7 hours during I and II. Sonny lives by the sword and dies by it; Tom's loyalty to Vito is almost slavish and earns Michael's enmity; Fredo is doomed; Connie is of no account; Michael will always pursue his own objectives.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/28/17 03:30 AM

Originally Posted By: mustachepete
Originally Posted By: olivant
Cicci murders Cuneo(?) in the revolving door. Now, what if Cuneo was not the last one to enter the revolving door? He might have been trailed by a bodyguard, an acquaintance, or a family member which would have made Cuneo's murder significantly more challenging or precluded it completely.


To pull this off, especially in the movie version, it seems like there has to be some cooperation from inside the other families, so perhaps Cuneo was led to slaughter?

Yes. To whack the heads of the families and get away with it, Michael would have needed near-impossible timing, since even a delay of a a few hours between one rival Don's murder and another might have tipped the survivors off. Michael had to have had cooperation from inside the families.
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/28/17 08:20 AM

“whacking the heads of the families” simultaneously, was so secret [until needed to know] even Tom was not told, neither Clemenza nor Tessio....

“cooperation from inside the families” would have been quite an operation – one little whiff and catastrophe

Among others,

1. who would have been the go-between
2. whom to approach and sound out
3. whom to trust not to go squealing to their boss
4. what happened to these people who cooperated Rewarded or got whacked themselves!
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/28/17 05:42 PM

I'm watching the GF right now.

Why does Tom carry his briefcase onto the studio lot? What would he have in the briefcase that he would need for his first meeting that day at that time?

Also, when Johnny tells Vito Woltz'a name he says only Woltz twice ... not Jack Woltz, at least the 2nd time.

Then, after Vito's shooting, Michael offers some advice to the assembled family members and Sonny admonishes Michael to stay out of the conversation. Less than a minute later Sonny tells Michael to give Luca a call then seeks to involve Michael by telling him to take a couple of men and go check on Luca. Makes no sense.
Posted By: dixiemafia

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/28/17 08:27 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
I'm watching the GF right now.

Why does Tom carry his briefcase onto the studio lot? What would he have in the briefcase that he would need for his first meeting that day at that time?


I'd imagine he would have Johnny's contract in there.

Quote:
Also, when Johnny tells Vito Woltz'a name he says only Woltz twice ... not Jack Woltz, at least the 2nd time.


He would know his full name as Woltz seemed to be a big producer then plus like Woltz said Johnny was involved with what Woltz thought was "his girl" and star (he was at least banging her)

Quote:
Then, after Vito's shooting, Michael offers some advice to the assembled family members and Sonny admonishes Michael to stay out of the conversation. Less than a minute later Sonny tells Michael to give Luca a call then seeks to involve Michael by telling him to take a couple of men and go check on Luca. Makes no sense.


Thing was Michael knew Luca, if you remember in the opening scene he tells Kay all about Luca. Granted they were not close enough for him to know the number as he picked up the phone like he knew the number by heart though so you do have a point there..
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/28/17 08:58 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant


Why does Tom carry his briefcase onto the studio lot? What would he have in the briefcase that he would need for his first meeting that day at that time?



When I have a briefcase, whatever else is in there there's usually an orange, too.* Quick energy, refreshing, smells good. Given the film, Tom probably carries a whole bag of oranges.

*Sometimes a tangerine,
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/28/17 11:01 PM

Originally Posted By: mustachepete
Originally Posted By: olivant


Why does Tom carry his briefcase onto the studio lot? What would he have in the briefcase that he would need for his first meeting that day at that time?



When I have a briefcase, whatever else is in there there's usually an orange, too.* Quick energy, refreshing, smells good. Given the film, Tom probably carries a whole bag of oranges.

*Sometimes a tangerine,


In a deleted scene, Tom tells Woltz "You have a star who just graduated from tangerines to oranges."
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/30/17 08:14 PM

In another "did you notice"...
After Roth delivers his soliloquy to Michael in his Havana hotel room, Johnny Ola gives Michael a pitying look, as if to say, "Did you think you could get the better of Hyman Roth?"
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/23/17 03:17 PM

In another Forum I posted that Vito could certainly afford to pave the mall's driveways, but instead opted for gravel.

In the scene following Carlo's murder, Michael and several others walk across the mall and one can clearly and loudly hear their shoes crunching on the gravel as they walk. I always thought that was, at the least, hilarious. I'll bet that post-production added in the crunching emphasis. But why?
Posted By: Mr. Blonde

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/23/17 04:56 PM

I remember someone here posting that gravel was seen as higher-class than pavement in the 1940's. Don't remember who said that or in which thread.

I found the post - it's on the second page of the Top 10 Questions thread. http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...true#Post886361
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/23/17 05:31 PM

I remember that post. Find it hard to believe. In any case, maybe the gravel reminded Vito of Sicily and the crunchiness of his grinding his enemies under foot.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/28/17 03:11 AM

Another subtlety: Watch the look of disgust on Tom's face when Moe Green bursts into Michael's hotel room in Vegas.
Posted By: Guiseppe Petri

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/01/17 12:34 PM

Dont know if this was addressed or not, in the beginning of g1, when tom is talking to vito during the wedding scenes about carlo, vito says to never discuss family business in front of him. But near the end of g1 during the big mmeeting in vitos office about the move to vegas, carlo is sitting in. Why is this, this is what i would consider a high level meeting and carlo could / would go running right to barzini and blab.
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/01/17 01:43 PM

Vito basically creates an alibi for the later murder of Carlo by bringing him to the center of the family and trusting him with important information. It keeps Carlo nearby, so that they can get at him. It also gives the appearance that the Corleones don't suspect Carlo.

Also, the meetings Carlo attends are partially a sham, even though Tessio and Clemenza are present. The real planning is being done between Michael and Vito, and then one or both of them will meet with Tom, Neri, or Rocco as needed. The circle including Carlo, Tessio, and Clemenza gets only the information that Vito and Michael want them to have.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/01/17 08:23 PM

"Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/02/17 02:16 AM

Originally Posted By: mustachepete
Vito basically creates an alibi for the later murder of Carlo by bringing him to the center of the family and trusting him with important information. It keeps Carlo nearby, so that they can get at him. It also gives the appearance that the Corleones don't suspect Carlo.



True enough Pete. But why does Vito show Carlo such affection as he is leaving the meeting and telling him that he's happy for him? That was unnecessary to sustain any fiction of inclusion.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/02/17 07:26 AM

I've been watching the spliced-together, deleted-scenes-included version of the Trilogy that ran on HBO recently:

--There's a seamless transition from the end of GF to Anthony's party in II. At the end of GF, when Kay asks Michael if Connie's accusations are true, and he denies it, Kay embraces him and gives him a guileless, trusting, accepting look. But, as soon as Clemenza kisses Michael's hand and Neri closes the door to his office, Kay has an awful, doubting look as if to say, "Oh, oh.." She follows it at Anthony's party: After Michael blesses Francesca's marriage to Gardner Shaw, Francesca tells Kay: "Uncle Michael is the most wonderful person in the world." Watch the look on Kay's face--"nope." Finally, after the Tahoe shooting, she's clutching Mary and shoots Michael an "if looks could kill" look, and Michael gives her several guilty looks.
--In the Francesca/Gardner Shaw scene, Michael, telling Gardner that he should take a course in business administration, shoots him two cheesy-smile-toothsome looks--very uncharacteristic for him.
--In the beginning of that same scene, you see a hulking youth in the background, wearing a plaid sports coat. In this version, the scene ends with Michael telling Tom, "Make sure her dowry is big: these people think Italian brides go barefoot." But, in the "Saga" version seen endlessly on US cable TV years ago, there's a 10-second extension of that scene: The hulking youth comes to Michael, and Michael says: "How's the football, Santino?" The youth replies, "Fine, Uncle Michael." The youth is Sonny's second son, Santino. We saw Sonny's first son, Frank, in GF, when he gives Vito a get-well card after Vito returns home from the hospital.
--When Connie brings her gigolo, Merle, to Michael in the boathouse, Michael denounces her and Merle ("You go with men who treat you like a whore...This Merle, I don't know what he lives on..."). But Connie speaks up bravely: "I need money." Watch how the camera shifts to Merle, who gives a patented whipped-dog look, confirming what Michael said about "...what he lives on."

No fan ever ceases seeing great stuff in the Trilogy. clap
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/02/17 04:30 PM

Even at your advanced age TB, your cognition is laudable.

Yes, I noticed those same performances, especially Kay's look while clutching Mary. Quite poignant and foretelling.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/03/17 01:40 AM

One thing I forgot to mention, and it's interesting:

In the theatrical release of II, Michael's scene with Anthony just before he leaves Tahoe appears after the shooting. In the "Epic" and "Saga" versions, the scene appears before the shooting. Michael tells Anthony he's leaving for business. After the shooting, Michael tells Tom, "If what I think has happened, has happened, I leave tonight." So, since he told Anthony he was going away, the bedroom scene logically should have occurred after the shooting, not before.

????
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/03/17 11:23 PM

TB, are you sure? He does tell Anthony he's leaving before the shooting and he tells him that he'll help him one day. But he tells Anthony that he's leaving early in the morning. THEN, after the shooting, he speaks with Tom.

The fact that he was able to leave for Florida so quickly tells me that the trip was arranged well in advance and had nothing to do with the shooting.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/04/17 03:17 PM

Well, that's why I put question marks at the end. Logically, Michael would have arranged the trip well in advance. And going by train isn't consistent with "if what I think has happened, I leave tonite." That's why I'm baffled by the different positioning in both versions.
Posted By: dixiemafia

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/04/17 07:41 PM

Yes I think Michael had that meeting in Florida no matter what, I think it's possible he was going to kill Roth anyways or at the least play along to get what Roth would leave behind if he died like was promised in Havana.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/04/17 09:43 PM

I'll have to watch both versions again to see the swapping of the scenes.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/24/17 01:31 PM

At the roadblock when the rebels' arrest takes place, Michael's driver tells them in english what's happening. Then, Michael (apparently)asks Johnny what's happening and Johnny tells him in Italian. Why? The driver just explained what's happening.
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 09/02/17 04:08 AM

Originally Posted By: olivant
True enough Pete. But why does Vito show Carlo such affection as he is leaving the meeting and telling him that he's happy for him? That was unnecessary to sustain any fiction of inclusion.
Vito always the nice guy! even knowing Carlo would be answering for Santino and Michael would probably be copping widow Connie's fury
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 09/02/17 08:21 PM

Vito wanted Carlo relaxed, confident that he wasn't being blamed for Sonny's death--"keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."
Posted By: Capri

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 09/04/17 01:53 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
At the roadblock when the rebels' arrest takes place, Michael's driver tells them in english what's happening. Then, Michael (apparently)asks Johnny what's happening and Johnny tells him in Italian. Why? The driver just explained what's happening.

Same but different!
Driver: Police is making an arrest Would let the car through once the arrest is made
Michael: Johnny?
Ola: Police are cleaning the lousy bandits up It is nothing
Posted By: Capri

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 09/04/17 01:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Vito wanted Carlo relaxed, confident that he wasn't being blamed for Sonny's death--"keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."

Wasn't Carlo relaxed, confident, smirking in triumph gonna be Michael's right hand in Nevada
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 09/04/17 06:49 PM

One of the nice things about III is the large number of little details from GF and II that FFC threw in to keep fans like us alert--such as Neri keeping Zasa "waiting in the lobby," or Connie telling Michael (after Vincent killed two of Zasa's assassins), "Now they'll fear you," or the same song Yolanda sang in the nightclub in Cuba being played by the band at Michael's party...

I spotted another subtle one last night:After Michael is helicoptered to the hotel in Atlantic City for the Commission meeting, the music playing is the same that played when Michael was coming to meet with Fredo and Moe Green at their Vegas hotel.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 09/04/17 07:56 PM

TB, I always wondered why FFC use that Yolanda song also at the Commendatore party. It's a grand song, but seemed out of place.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 09/05/17 02:56 AM

He did it to so people like us would recognize the song--a kind of bonding experience with his fans, I guess.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/07/17 09:58 PM

I think I recall some discussion of this in another thread, but here goes.

Anthony's communion is in May (yes, that's the traditional month). Michael goes to Miami to meet with Roth and then goes to New York to see Frankie. There's an abundance of snow in New York. Why? It's May.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/08/17 05:41 PM

Yes, Oli, it was mentioned years ago, and I believe you were the mentioner.

The explanation is simple: Michael made a huge donation to the Church,.and they gave him a dispensation to have Anthony's First Communion in December. It paved the way for him to become a Knight of St. Sebastian at the beginning of III. wink
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/08/17 07:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Yes, Oli, it was mentioned years ago, and I believe you were the mentioner.

The explanation is simple: Michael made a huge donation to the Church,.and they gave him a dispensation to have Anthony's First Communion in December. It paved the way for him to become a Knight of St. Sebastian at the beginning of III. wink


I think you're right TB. In a deleted scene, although it's sunny and warm in Nevada even in December, you see at the compound a truck filled with Christmas decorations being unloaded by some men. I think that maybe a couple of them were the assassins.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/16/18 04:35 PM

Last night I watched the melancholy scene in which Michael returns to Tahoe after his travels to NY, Miami and Havana. As he enters his home, Kay is working at her sewing machine. She doesn't even look up when he arrives, even though he's been gone for (probably) weeks. Michael looks in on her, then turns away, bows his head, and puts his hand in front of his face. It's exactly the same gesture he made when it sank in on him, at the Superman show, that Fredo was the traitor. I think it was then that Michael realized he'd lost Kay.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/16/18 06:49 PM

TB, you're absolutely right. However, I believe that he also didn't care. She was of no more use to him just as Fredo was of no further use to him once Fredo's betrayal was confirmed.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/17/18 03:05 AM

That's a dodgy issue, Oli. On the one hand, Michael definitely used Kay--to help with his legitimization with her WASP background, and to bear his children. You might argue that the miscarriage ended her usefulness to him. On the other hand, I think he did care for her, in his way. In the next scene after the one I cited, he sits with Mama and asks if it's possible to "lose your family."
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/17/18 07:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
That's a dodgy issue, Oli. On the one hand, Michael definitely used Kay--to help with his legitimization with her WASP background, and to bear his children. You might argue that the miscarriage ended her usefulness to him. On the other hand, I think he did care for her, in his way. In the next scene after the one I cited, he sits with Mama and asks if it's possible to "lose your family."


True enough TB. But I wonder if his conversation with his mother was to furnish him with sufficient information to justify his disposal of Kay. When his mother said that one never loses one's family I think he interpreted that as a green light to continue his nefarious ways as well as Kay's continued usefulness to him at no risk to him.
Posted By: dixiemafia

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/17/18 10:07 PM

Yea I definitely think he used her too. Wonder how much differently his life would have been had he brought Apollonia home and had kids?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/18/18 03:05 AM

Originally Posted By: olivant

True enough TB. But I wonder if his conversation with his mother was to furnish him with sufficient information to justify his disposal of Kay. When his mother said that one never loses one's family I think he interpreted that as a green light to continue his nefarious ways as well as Kay's continued usefulness to him at no risk to him.

Reprehensible character that he was, it's entirely possible that Michael ultimately interpreted what Mama said as a green light. But, for the moment, I think he was upset about losing Kay.
Posted By: The Last Woltz

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/18/18 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: olivant

True enough TB. But I wonder if his conversation with his mother was to furnish him with sufficient information to justify his disposal of Kay. When his mother said that one never loses one's family I think he interpreted that as a green light to continue his nefarious ways as well as Kay's continued usefulness to him at no risk to him.

Reprehensible character that he was, it's entirely possible that Michael ultimately interpreted what Mama said as a green light. But, for the moment, I think he was upset about losing Kay.


I agree with TB on this one.

I don't see any indication that Michael is anything but upset about how his family life has turned out. If he had some ulterior motive, why would he question what his father thought "deep in his heart?"

As to him using Mama's comments as an endorsement of his actions without consequence to him, Michael himself refutes this with his "tempi cambi" comment.

He is saying to Mama that times change, and one can lose his family these days. Which is exactly what Michael realized was happening.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/18/18 09:35 PM

As far as realizations go Woltz, he could be thinking that HIS times are changing, that he had changed. When he said in III "I spent my life protecting my family" and "What choice did I have?", he was rationalizing his conduct. Remember, at the end of I he outright lied to Kay and in II, he excused his failure to leave criminality behind with "I'm trying."
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/19/18 01:50 AM

Originally Posted By: olivant
he said in III "I spent my life protecting my family"

...like pulling Kay down during the Tahoe shooting. tongue Kay had the last word: "But you became my horror."
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/22/18 05:13 AM

What a nice board! Thanks J Geoff and Gizmo!

I tend to believe that Michael was talking about his blood family
Michael could see that Kay and his marriage was falling apart and I believe Michael was seeking advice from his mother

From memory, the women were never involved in the Mafia, so, I believe it is unlikely Michael was talking about the Mafia family to his mother

Besides at that stage the Mafia family, run by Frankie Pentangeli, even though had the Corleone name, was small potatoes!
And Michael had been distancing himself from Mafia, trying to become legitimate

It was surreal when Michael returned home, Kay was at the sewing machine, knew Michael was back from Cuba, may not have realised Michael was actually home

Michael not approaching Kay, having nothing to say to her, especially after such traumatic events – Tahoe shooting
  • Michael not comforting his wife who just had a 'miscarriage'
  • Michael talking to his mother not his wife
  • If Michael had the same “losing the family” talk with Kay......second chance at their marriage
  • If Michael had said half the 'reassurances' of Hotel Washington, to Kay, the marriage may have been saved

The way Michael protected Kay during the bedroom shooting was indeed incredible
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/28/18 01:35 AM

I watched the GF this morning and noticed something in the opening scene with Bonasera. Bonasera asks Vito to murder the boys who assaulted his daughter. Vito declines. Why? Well, Vito later explains that justice would not be served through murder since Bonasera's daughter is still alive. After Bonasera leaves, Vito tells Tom that we are not murderers. Curious.

Vito has his own morality and justice standards. There's no surprise there. But it seems that Vito needs to rationalize his behavior, so he sets up his own standard. As long as he adheres to it, he figures that he's not a murderer. Is Vito's approach a foreshadowing of Michael's rational about how he spent his life protecting his family even if it involved murder?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/28/18 03:18 AM

Originally Posted by olivant
I watched the GF this morning and noticed something in the opening scene with Bonasera. Bonasera asks Vito to murder the boys who assaulted his daughter. Vito declines. Why? Well, Vito later explains that justice would not be served through murder since Bonasera's daughter is still alive. After Bonasera leaves, Vito tells Tom that we are not murderers. Curious.

Vito had his own morality and justice standards. There's no surprise there. But it seems that Vito needs to rationalize his behavior, so he sets up his own standard. As long as he adheres to it, he figures that he's not a murderer. Is Vito's approach a foreshadowing of Michael's rational about how he spent his life protecting his family even if it involved murder?

Yes, Vito had his own standards for "morality" and "justice." When he told Bonasera, "that is not justice, your daughter is still alive," he was really objecting to "doing murder for money," which would have made him no better than a hired killer, at Bonasera's beck and call. When he said to Tom, "we're not murderers," he meant, "murderers for hire." The novel tells us he had no objection to killing competitors of the Genco Pura Olive Oil Company, but that was not murder for hire, it was murder for the money his competitors were costing him.

Excellent point about Michael, Oli. Michael was the Great Rationalizer, starting when he told Kay, in New Hampshire, "my father is no different than other powerful men..." If "Governors and Senators have people killed, why not Vito and Michael? When he gave Kay that BS about "protecting my family from the horrors of this world," he should have appended, "horrors like the Tahoe shooting that I brought on you and the kids through my criminal life." Kay brought him up short when she replied, "but you became my horror."

Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/06/18 04:21 AM

I watched GFII tonight. have watched this scene a million times, but just noticed.

When Michael returns from Cuba and tells Rocco and Neri to wait outside, Rocco leaves, but Neri turns his back to Michael, waits, then finally leaves. However, he exits, then closes the sliding door, but waits there for many seconds looking inside. I took that as his demonstrating his dissatisfaction with being excluded. Did any of you see that and interpret it such?

Also, at the nightclub when Geary et al are hosted by Fredo, I wonder if Michael wondered why Fredo already knew about the local drinks since he had only been in Cuba for a day and supposedly had never been to Cuba before.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/06/18 04:48 PM

Oli, I'll have to look at that Neri scene again, but what I recall is he follows Rocco to the sliding door, stops, turns around, and grabs a cigar from a box on the coffee table. Your point about his possibly not wanting to be excluded would fit with my long-standing theory that he was trying to edge out Tom to be #2.

I didn't conclude that Fredo had never been to Cuba before. As he told Michael, "Havana's my kind of town." It'd be logical that Fredo, involved with gambling and whoring in Nevada, would want to visit Cuba.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/07/18 03:31 AM

TB, Neri does exit the motel room, closes the sliding door, and then stands there for many seconds peering inside at Michael and Tom. Then he turns away. Since there's a curtain on the sliding door, I can't see the expression on his face.
Posted By: Evita

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/10/18 03:36 AM

I cannot even imagine! anyone “demonstrating their dissatisfaction” to Michael about anything he said or did

Havana's great It's Fredo's kinda town!
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/13/18 08:22 PM

Yet another couple of details:
In the scene in GF where Sonny confronts the FBI guys writing down license plate numbers at Connie's wedding, Paulie trails Sonny. He's got his hand inside his jacket, as if he's about to pull out a gun. After Sonny spits on the FBI guy's I.D. and turns away, Paulie slips the FBI guy a cornudo--the index-finger-and-pinkie gesture that means "cuckold" among Italians.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/14/18 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
Yet another couple of details:
In the scene in GF where Sonny confronts the FBI guys writing down license plate numbers at Connie's wedding, Paulie trails Sonny. He's got his hand inside his jacket, as if he's about to pull out a gun. After Sonny spits on the FBI guy's I.D. and turns away, Paulie slips the FBI guy a cornudo--the index-finger-and-pinkie gesture that means "cuckold" among Italians.


TB, that's one illustration of how FFC dramatized some scenes. In the novel, there are only two FBI who never leave their vehicle, are across the street. Of course, the most elaborate hype in the film was Sonny's murder.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/14/18 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by olivant
. Of course, the most elaborate hype in the film was Sonny's murder.

...FFC's tribute to Arthur Penn's "Bonnie and Clyde."
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/25/18 09:44 PM

Does anyone have an idea about how much time elapsed between Vito's return to the mall and Michael's trip to Las Vegas?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/25/18 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by olivant
Does anyone have an idea about how much time elapsed between Vito's return to the mall and Michael's trip to Las Vegas?

Short answer: I don't know.
Longer answer: Vito returned to the Mall some time in 1946, probably spring or summer. Michael was still in Sicily. The next we see of Michael in America is when he woos Kay in New Hampshire, and he tells her, "I've been back a year." The next we see of Michael after that is the trip to Vegas. How much time elapsed overall is uncertain--more than a year, probably less than five years.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/04/18 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
Originally Posted by olivant
Does anyone have an idea about how much time elapsed between Vito's return to the mall and Michael's trip to Las Vegas?

Short answer: I don't know.
Longer answer: Vito returned to the Mall some time in 1946, probably spring or summer. Michael was still in Sicily. The next we see of Michael in America is when he woos Kay in New Hampshire, and he tells her, "I've been back a year." The next we see of Michael after that is the trip to Vegas. How much time elapsed overall is uncertain--more than a year, probably less than five years.



TB, the novel states that Sonny moved Vito to the mall in February. The Don's meeting was probably in the Spring or Summer of '46. When Michael surprises Kay there are leaves on the ground and they're wearing winter clothes and a year probably places Michael's return in late '47. The timeline is so messed up.
Posted By: SC

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/04/18 02:56 AM

Originally Posted by olivant
The timeline is so messed up.



*ding*ding*ding*

There's the definitive answer. Due to messed up differences between the novel and the movies and just plain sloppy facts one will never be able to fully answer questions like this.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/04/18 02:56 AM

Originally Posted by olivant

The timeline is so messed up.

That may be the understatement of the year, Oli. Figuring out timelines is one of the most intriguing--and frustrating--activities on this board.

Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/04/18 03:24 AM

In the scene where Michael and Fredo are having their drink in Havana, Michael tells Fredo that he'll be assassinated. "Who?" Fredo asks. Michael grunts out "Roth," in a way that suggests to me disgust and regret--as if he's saying, "Why did I ever believe I could do a deal with him."
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/05/18 05:12 PM

TB, it's astounding that Michael could ever think he could negotiate with Roth. Of course, what concerns me even more is that he's admitting that while in the mouth of the lion. Isn't that something one concludes while ensconced in the safety of his Tahoe compound?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/05/18 09:59 PM

You'd think so, Oli. But, the Michael/Roth relationship from the beginning was defined by greed: Michael's for Roth's Cuban gaming empire, Roth's for getting rid of Michael while getting him to pay $2 million for his own demise. Nothing rational about greed.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/01/18 03:42 PM

In II, the Rosatos attempt to garrote Frankie. In an AHC episode about the Mafia, the Gallo brothers attempt to garrote someone (I forget who). I wonder if it was FFC copying real life Mafia events or simply the TV production co-opting real life events. Of course some of that is part of the Trilogy, but I just wonder how valid are the AHC accounts.
Posted By: SC

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/01/18 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by olivant
In II, the Rosatos attempt to garrote Frankie. In an AHC episode about the Mafia, the Gallo brothers attempt to garrote someone (I forget who). I wonder if it was FFC copying real life Mafia events or simply the TV production co-opting real life events. Of course some of that is part of the Trilogy, but I just wonder how valid are the AHC accounts.



oli, I think you're referring to the real life incident in which Larry Gallo (Crazy Joe's brother) was almost strangled to death by members of the Profaci Family in a bar in Brooklyn. Gallo was close to death when a cop walked in and interrupted the strangling.

I have some personal memories of this. It was the summer of 1961 and I was ten years old. That was the year that Mantle and Maris were trying to break Babe Ruth's home run record for a single season. My dad was in the jukebox business and one of his stops was the Sahara Lounge. Since it was the summer my mom didn't want me hanging out on the streets all summer so a few times I went to work with my dad. My job consisted of handing him tools while he fixed jukeboxes and pinball machines or help him empty the coinboxes and separate the nickels, dimes and quarters while he rolled the coins and split the take with the bar owner. Well, this one day in the middle of the summer the bar hadn't opened yet and my dad went to collect his money. I sat at the bar with him and did my coin sorting (which was a great job for me.... I collected old coins and that was when there were still lots of them in circulation). Anyway, I remember talking to the bar owner about the home run chase and as luck would have it the Yankees game was on television then so he turned it on so I could watch it. One of the M boys (Mantle or Maris) hit a home run (I can't remember who) but I was excited by seeing that. OK, a few weeks passed and my dad came home after work with one of the local newspapers and showed it to me. The front page had a big photo of Larry Gallo with a big red mark around his throat (from the strangling attempt). I didn't know why my dad was showing this picture to me but then he explained it all happened at the bar where I watched the home run being hit just a few weeks before.

BTW - It was actor Danny Aiello who strangled Frank Pentangeli in that scene in Part II. And Aiello ad-libbed the line, "Michael Corleone sends his regards". FFC decided to keep the line in the movie (which added a little confusion to the storyline).
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/01/18 06:17 PM

Supposedly one of the Profaci members in on the Larry Gallo attempted murder was Carmine (the Snake) Persico. You can search Gooogle to see the garrote line on Larry's throat. It was Page One in the Daily News at the time.

The "Michael Corleone says hello" line "adding a little confusion to the storyline") LOL! For a long time, that was the source of the number one question on this board: Did Roth plan Pentangeli's rescue?

Another throwback to the Gallos: When Pentangeli complains to Michael that the Rosatos "recruit n---ers, they recruit s--cs," FFC and Puzo are referring to Crazy Joe Gallo having recruited same while he was in prison for extortion, and using them in his post-prison rackets.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/01/18 08:13 PM

Great story SC. However, that series on AHC still propagates alot of OC myths such as Siegal naming the Flamingo after Virginia Hill. So, it's a challenge to trust their "facts".

TB, that's apparently true about Gallo getting close to blacks while he was in prison.
Posted By: Goldy

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/01/18 09:18 PM

Supposedly, Tony Sirico (Paulie from The Sopranos) is in this scene in the bar with the attempted strangulation. He could certainly be one of the other guys, it's awfully dark and hard to make out their faces. Another Sopranos alum is "Carmine Sr." seen in the beginning wedding scene a couple times, looking not all that much different although he's not wearing glasses.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/02/18 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by olivant
Great story SC. However, that series on AHC still propagates alot of OC myths such as Siegal naming the Flamingo after Virginia Hill. So, it's a challenge to trust their "facts".



Yes. The partially completed hotel was already named Flamingo when Bugsy Siegel bought it from Billy Wilkerson, a degenerate gambler whose debts left him without the means to finish it.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/02/18 09:36 PM

While we're on the subject of those AHC episodes about OC, there's one where they maintain that a Massino capo went after two FBI agents and murdered one and injured another. I've never heard of anything like that happening. Anyone have any info on that?
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/24/18 05:04 PM

I didn't know where else to post this and I didn't want to start a thread. In GFII, Vito comes to the US legally it appears. However, what about all of the Mafiosi who came to the US such as Costello, Gambino, Mangano, etc? The only Mafioso that I've read of who didn't was Carlos Marcello who Robert Kennedy ordered deported.

Do any Board members have any information regarding this?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/24/18 05:52 PM

Oli, until 1924, any white person who could get to Ellis Island on his/her own, and could pass a rudimentary health check, could stay in the US legally--didn't even have to become a naturalized citizen. Quite a few Mafiosi came here without going through Ellis Island for one reason or another. Some, like Carlos Marcello, came here from Tunis, which had a large Sicilian population a century ago.

The government tried to deport Marcello, but he had plenty of legal talent to prevent deportation. All he had to do was to show up at the INS office in New Orleans quarterly. But, at his first visit in 1961, after the Kennedy Administration took over, he was met by federal marshals who found that he had a fake Guatemalan passport. They accused him of entering the US illegally from that country and immediately flew him to Guatemala City. The authorities, tipped off by INS, declared him persona non grata and dumped him in a jungle over the border in Honduras, expecting him to die there. He made his way back to the US, where he was indicted for entering the country illegally and for evading taxes. That was the source of a grudge he had against the Kennedys, which some believe resulted in the JFK assassination.
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/05/18 04:24 AM

When Michael is walking to Mama's house in the snow for his “losing the family” talk there are all the children's play equipment like swings, seesaw, slide etc and a snowman

When Michael goes to talk to Fredo in the boathouse, Fredo puts both his hands over his face Could be defensive, defence, defiance "I haven't got a lot to say Mike"
Posted By: jace

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/06/18 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
Oli, until 1924, any white person who could get to Ellis Island on his/her own, and could pass a rudimentary health check, could stay in the US legally--didn't even have to become a naturalized citizen. Quite a few Mafiosi came here without going through Ellis Island for one reason or another. Some, like Carlos Marcello, came here from Tunis, which had a large Sicilian population a century ago.

The government tried to deport Marcello, but he had plenty of legal talent to prevent deportation. All he had to do was to show up at the INS office in New Orleans quarterly. But, at his first visit in 1961, after the Kennedy Administration took over, he was met by federal marshals who found that he had a fake Guatemalan passport. They accused him of entering the US illegally from that country and immediately flew him to Guatemala City. The authorities, tipped off by INS, declared him persona non grata and dumped him in a jungle over the border in Honduras, expecting him to die there. He made his way back to the US, where he was indicted for entering the country illegally and for evading taxes. That was the source of a grudge he had against the Kennedys, which some believe resulted in the JFK assassination.



I thought they needed a sponsor who would guarantee that they would not go on welfare? They also had to show proof of a residence that would take them, and pass a physical.
Posted By: jace

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/06/18 02:08 AM

From the bureau of parks on immigrating before 1921:

Arrivals were asked 29 questions including name, occupation, and the amount of money carried. It was important to the American government the new arrivals could support themselves and have money to get started. The average the government wanted the immigrants to have was between 18 and 25 dollars ($600 in 2015 adjusted for inflation). Those with visible health problems or diseases were sent home or held in the island's hospital facilities for long periods of time. More than 3,000 would-be immigrants died on Ellis Island while being held in the hospital facilities. Some unskilled workers were rejected because they were considered "likely to become a public charge." About 2% were denied admission to the U.S. and sent back to their countries of origin for reasons such as having a chronic contagious disease, criminal background, or insanity


Then in 1921 a stricter quota was put in place, followed by a ban in 1926 on most immigration form Europe.
Posted By: Quiet_Doms

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/18/18 08:09 AM

[quote=olivant]I watched GFII tonight. have watched this scene a million times, but just noticed.

When Michael returns from Cuba and tells Rocco and Neri to wait outside, Rocco leaves, but Neri turns his back to Michael, waits, then finally leaves. However, he exits, then closes the sliding door, but waits there for many seconds looking inside. I took that as his demonstrating his dissatisfaction with being excluded. Did any of you see that and interpret it such?

For years I’ve noticed that glance. Neri is kneeling right outside of the sliding doors smoking a cigarette. Very creepy! I always wondered what that was about. But his main role was being a bodyguard, the confidant came second. So why be upset with Tom?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/20/18 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by Quiet_Doms

When Michael returns from Cuba and tells Rocco and Neri to wait outside, Rocco leaves, but Neri turns his back to Michael, waits, then finally leaves. However, he exits, then closes the sliding door, but waits there for many seconds looking inside. I took that as his demonstrating his dissatisfaction with being excluded. Did any of you see that and interpret it such?

That's a peculiar scene. Looks to me that Neri was about to follow Rocco out, but turns, snatches a smoke (maybe a cigar) from the coffee table, then lights it up outside the sliding door.

Quote
But his main role was being a bodyguard, the confidant came second. So why be upset with Tom?

Are you referring to the boathouse scene near the end of II when Michael asks Tom if he's going to quit and join the "House and Hotels" as vice president? As Michael is nailing Tom, Neri leans back in his chair with a smug look on his face--as if he was the source of that potentially damaging info. Though I can't prove it, I've always inferred that Neri, by that time, was trying to shove aside Rocco and Neri, and stand alone as Michael's No. 2. Watch how he conducts himself in that scene--he's a full member of the discussion about Roth, even though he barely said ten words earlier in the Trilogy (except for a deleted scene).

This raises a broader question: what was the relationship among Rocco, Neri and Tom? Rocco and Neri couldn't have had much respect for Tom because Tom never made his bones, was not in the muscle end of the business, was not Michael's choice for consigliere, and had been demoted by Michael and humiliated by him more than once. Michael put Tom in charge while he was away after the shooting, but as soon as he returned, he was shouting at Tom ("Can't you give me a straight answer anymore?") within earshot of the others. The boathouse scene was really humiliating.

Rocco was Clemenza's choice,, Neri was Michael's choice. We don't see them exchanging any words during GF and II. I don't believe they could have been close in any way. One of the Mafia's prime rules: Never have friends in the family--you might have to kill them one day.
Posted By: Michael_Giovanni

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/20/18 06:43 PM

When Luca goes to meet Solozzo and BrunoTattaglia at the bar has anyone else noticed there are fish on the window by the entrance? The camera looks through the window as Luca walks in. Foreshadowing to Luca sleeping with the fishes. Never noticed that until last night when I was watching the GF epic.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/20/18 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Michael_Giovanni
When Luca goes to meet Solozzo and BrunoTattaglia at the bar has anyone else noticed there are fish on the window by the entrance? The camera looks through the window as Luca walks in. Foreshadowing to Luca sleeping with the fishes. Never noticed that until last night when I was watching the GF epic.


I always noticed the fishes, but never made the connection.

Figata!
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/27/18 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
Supposedly one of the Profaci members in on the Larry Gallo attempted murder was Carmine (the Snake) Persico. You can search Gooogle to see the garrote line on Larry's throat. It was Page One in the Daily News at the time.

The "Michael Corleone says hello" line "adding a little confusion to the storyline") LOL! For a long time, that was the source of the number one question on this board: Did Roth plan Pentangeli's rescue?




I watched II this weekend and, as often is the case, noticed something. In the scene in the boathouse after they learn that Pentangeli is alive, Tom says "...he was half dead, scared stiff, and calling out loud that you'd turned on him."

Could the garroting scene have played out just as FFC intended? In other words, Aiello's "regards" statement was not ad libbed; it was in the script. If so, the reasoning would be that Roth wanted Frankie to turn on Michael. However, to accomplish that, Frankie would have to be left alive. How did FFC rationalize to the audience Frankie being left alive when it was quite clear that Aiello's character could have finished murdering Frankie? Well, FFC decided that he'd copy the Gallo attempted strangulation murder and have a policeman show up to save Frankie's. Thus, Frankie is left alive and thinks Michael turned on him.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/27/18 10:02 PM

I've often speculated that FFC left in "Michael Corleone says hello" because it was intended for Richie, the bartender, to hear. He was a civilian, and would be a prime candidate for police grilling after Pentangeli turned up dead, as planned. He obviously would never rat out the Rosato brothers, so they threw him something to tell the cops: "I dunno the guys who done it, but one of 'em said, 'Michael Corleone says hello.'" That would have set the cops on Michael. Too bad for Roth and the Rosatos that the cop showed up and thwarted their plan to kill Pentangeli.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/28/18 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
I've often speculated that FFC left in "Michael Corleone says hello" because it was intended for Richie, the bartender, to hear. He was a civilian, and would be a prime candidate for police grilling after Pentangeli turned up dead, as planned. He obviously would never rat out the Rosato brothers, so they threw him something to tell the cops: "I dunno the guys who done it, but one of 'em said, 'Michael Corleone says hello.'" That would have set the cops on Michael. Too bad for Roth and the Rosatos that the cop showed up and thwarted their plan to kill Pentangeli.


But that's just it TB: I don't think it was an ad lib or intended for Richie. If the policeman doesn't show up and the Rosatos murder Frankie, then what purpose of Roth's does a dead Frankie serve?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/28/18 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by olivant
what purpose of Roth's does a dead Frankie serve?

Roth was certain that he could have Michael killed in Havana. His purpose in having Pentangeli killed was for his allies, the Rosatos, to take over the Corleone operation in NYC so that Michael's successors in Nevada would be deprived of their muscle.
Posted By: Guiseppe Petri

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/28/18 07:20 PM

Here it is right from the horse's mouthes.

Aiello

https://youtu.be/Q_QVt_JCS54

Duvall

https://youtu.be/4kFpSMLPl58
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 09/30/18 05:18 PM

In a deleted scene from II, Neri is dispatched to the Tropigala casino to oust Klingman, who flees to a room where chorus girls are rehearsing. Klingman gives in. The girls stop rehearsing. Neri sits down and says, "Keep it going" in a very proprietary and commanding manner. I wonder if Michael promised him a piece of the Tropigala.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/01/18 04:56 PM

TB, I think Neri's words were partly a function of hubris. Like Michael's confronting Carlo, he was a shark circling his prey and feeling unassailable, and master of his domain.

As Johnny Ola told Michael, if you move Klingman out, our friend in Miami will go along. It was Michael's play with Neri chosen to execute it. Providing Neri with a piece of the Tropigala is something I might expect since Michael was in a position to grant it. However, as the novel states, Neri was paid a salary and did not have his own revenue-generating operation. Maybe that changed, but revenue from the Tropigala could be viewed as passive income.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/02/18 03:16 AM

Perhaps FFC wanted to five Richard Bright a few speaking lines. He had none in GF and very few in II until the end.

To your point about salary:
SPOILER:


Novel states that, after Neri whacked Moe Green, Michael rewarded him with a rich living from an Upper East Side (NYC) book. But, he didn't have a regime, unlike Rocco, who, we learned from Tom, was building a regime under Clemenza for the Day When Michael Settled All Family Affairs.
Posted By: OakAsFan

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/03/18 05:21 PM

lol. The "Tropigala".

This is like when COPS shows everything but the actual numbers on the license plate. Anyone who knows the person knows its him.

I'm guessing in this instance, Neri is John Rosselli, and Klingman is Gus Greenbaum.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 10/03/18 05:22 PM

TB, I think we are referring to a rose by any other name. Neri's income was all passive. Without a regime, he was without personnel except as needed to carry out Michael's instructions.
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/04/18 05:08 AM

I hope! this thread is the most suited

Sugar high! How US chocolate exporter smuggled cocaine to Australia
The Sydney Morning Herald by Peter Mitchell 3 November 2018

Extracts:
Owen Hanson, the good-looking former University of Southern California athlete turned cocaine kingpin and leader of violent criminal enterprise ODOG, teamed up with Los Angeles-based fine chocolate importer/exporters Nathan and Andrew Dulley.

At Hanson's sentencing last year prosecutor Andrew Young described how Hanson fashioned himself as a mob boss.
He used the handle "Don Corleone" on his encrypted Blackberry and insisted a restaurant he was a partner in had a "Wise Guy Room" adorned with mob photos.
Posted By: Guiseppe Petri

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/04/18 02:20 PM

Turnbull -Rocco was Clemenza's choice,, Neri was Michael's choice. We don't see them exchanging any words during GF and II. I don't believe they could have been close in any way. One of the Mafia's prime rules: Never have friends in the family--you might have to kill them one day.

That's why I think that Neri looked so " troubled " about having to whack Fredo. From the boathouse scene where he is given the order to mama's funeral when Fredo says hi to him, going up to mamas casket - he was there from the start, why is he shown now going up to pay his respects - as I have posted before, he is apologizing, to the final fishing scene.

Neri throughout the g 1 and g 2 is shown as a distanced and cold character except when it comes to Fredo, he has sympathy or a friendship with him.
Posted By: J Geoff

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/05/18 06:27 PM

[Just getting rid of "BabyRoo" from the "Last Post" column because the links broke when I deleted all his posts]
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/22/18 09:25 PM

Watching on AMC: I guess the dumbest move in the all of GF2 is when the Senator tells Michael that on Monday he's going to produce a witness who can impeach Michael's testimony. It seems like an off-the-cuff remark in response to Michael's challenge to produce a witness against him. The lawyer Questadt doesn't look happy while the Senator's talking.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/22/18 09:32 PM

At the beginning of Roth's birthday party scene in Havana, Michael's bodyguard is leaning against the balcony railing, suddenly looks up, takes off his hat and brushes it. A bird shit on it.
Posted By: Michael_Giovanni

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/22/18 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
At the beginning of Roth's birthday party scene in Havana, Michael's bodyguard is leaning against the balcony railing, suddenly looks up, takes off his hat and brushes it. A bird shit on it.

lol I never noticed that. I'm going to look for it next time.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/23/18 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Michael_Giovanni
Originally Posted by Turnbull
At the beginning of Roth's birthday party scene in Havana, Michael's bodyguard is leaning against the balcony railing, suddenly looks up, takes off his hat and brushes it. A bird shit on it.

lol I never noticed that. I'm going to look for it next time.


I seldom disagree with TB, but I will do so most assuredly this time.

As you watch the scene, the camera follows the cake until Buscetta comes into view. Seconds later you see him touch the brim of his hat and then take it off. He does nothing with his hat except look into its interior. He then looks up ... at what? The blazing Cuban sun!. Looking back down, he moves his hat from around his waste area where he is holding it and then places it on his head. He then briefly touches its brim and applies pressure to the top of the hat near the forward part of the hat. Several seconds later, he looks back up at the sun, then removes his coat. No wonder. He's wearing all black and standing in direct sunlight. There is no brushing of the hat and Buscetta never looks at the top of the hat, only its interior.
Posted By: Michael_Giovanni

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/23/18 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by olivant
Originally Posted by Michael_Giovanni
Originally Posted by Turnbull
At the beginning of Roth's birthday party scene in Havana, Michael's bodyguard is leaning against the balcony railing, suddenly looks up, takes off his hat and brushes it. A bird shit on it.

lol I never noticed that. I'm going to look for it next time.


I seldom disagree with TB, but I will do so most assuredly this time.

As you watch the scene, the camera follows the cake until Buscetta comes into view. Seconds later you see him touch the brim of his hat and then take it off. He does nothing with his hat except look into its interior. He then looks up ... at what? The blazing Cuban sun!. Looking back down, he moves his hat from around his waste area where he is holding it and then places it on his head. He then briefly touches its brim and applies pressure to the top of the hat near the forward part of the hat. Several seconds later, he looks back up at the sun, then removes his coat. No wonder. He's wearing all black and standing in direct sunlight. There is no brushing of the hat and Buscetta never looks at the top of the hat, only its interior.




I just rewatched the scene and I have to agree with Olivant on this one.
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/24/18 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by mustachepete
Watching on AMC: I guess the dumbest move in the all of GF2 is when the Senator tells Michael that on Monday he's going to produce a witness who can impeach Michael's testimony. It seems like an off-the-cuff remark in response to Michael's challenge to produce a witness against him. The lawyer Questadt doesn't look happy while the Senator's talking.
Also Questadt's reaction when the chairman agreed for Michael to read his statement
Posted By: Bussetta

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/26/18 05:42 PM

First post so I'm not sure if this has been covered yet, but I recently went to the opera (my GF's work gave us free tickets, I don't normally live that lifestyle) and we saw "La Traviata." One of the songs from the show was stuck in my head for days and I couldn't figure out where I knew it from then I realized it was from the Italian wedding scene in GFI.

It briefly plays when Appolonia is passing out the marshmallows (?) to the people at the wedding. Also if anyone has more insight on the Italian wedding rituals it'd be interesting to know exactly what she was passing out.

Anyway here's the song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZvgmpiQCcI

BTW this website is amazing and I'm happy to be in the company of fellow fanatics : )
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/26/18 07:40 PM

Marshmallows? Madonne!

I can't tell for sure, but it's probably some version of a cream cake of which there are a number of varieties. maybe Cassotta.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/27/18 03:23 AM

Welcome, Bussetta, hope to see many more thoughtful posts by you.

Coppola liked opera. lThe brindisi (drinking song) from Traviata is one of the most famous and recognizable opera choruses. A trio from Rigoletto appears at Anthony's party in GFII. A little, white-suited band (similar to the one that played at Michael and Apollonia's wedding in GF) plays a chorus from Nabucco when Michael . in Bagheria in GFIII. Nice that he surrounded the conclusion of III with Cavalleria Rusticana, and closed with the famous Intermezzo from that opera.
Posted By: Bussetta

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/27/18 05:07 PM

That makes sense, TB. Makes me now want to almost go back to GFIII, which I haven't seen in years . . .

But seriously it's always great to find out something new about any of the films. I watched it on AMC last week (as I'm sure everyone else did) and in GFII just now noticed Rocco sitting on the other side of Kay during the Pentangeli hearing, which I assumed to mean that Neri was back in Nevada "guarding" Fredo?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/27/18 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Bussetta

But seriously it's always great to find out something new about any of the films. I watched it on AMC last week (as I'm sure everyone else did) and in GFII just now noticed Rocco sitting on the other side of Kay during the Pentangeli hearing, which I assumed to mean that Neri was back in Nevada "guarding" Fredo?

You can watch the movies a thousand times and still find something you didn't spot before--like Rocco sitting next to Kay. That may have been a blooper--Rocco was identified as a caporegime in the FBI chart shown in the first part of the hearing, when Michael testified. Not really a swift move having a caporegime sitting next to Kay with Michael denying he's a Mob boss.
Posted By: Michael_Giovanni

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/28/18 03:01 AM

Watching it tonight I noticed that when Vito was shot he’s struggling to get on his feet then he falls over unconscious lying on his back. After they show Fredo crying there is a wider shot and suddenly Vito is lying on his left side. Bit of a goof there.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 11/28/18 06:49 PM

FFC had trouble with continuity in the scenes with shootings. When Michael whacks McCluskey in the restaurant, his first shot hits Mac in the throat, but you see the red splotch for his second shot to the head even as he's clutching his throat. When Sonny is massacred at the toll booth, some bullet holes in his car appear, disappear and appear again.
Posted By: Evita

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/02/18 02:32 AM

Just before Fredo's boathouse outburst, when Michael, Tom and Neri are discussing how Pentangeli is alive, I reckon Tom says gleefully! payback time!!

“No way we can get to him. If we don't it's up to five counts of perjury”
"Fredo says he doesn't know anything I believe him"
“Roth played this one beautifully”

I reckon he is thinking I am gonna take over! I am gonna be the Don!!
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/02/18 06:40 PM

When Michael and Fredo are having their little tete-a-tete in Havana, Michael says to Fredo,"Senator Geary is flying in from Washington tomorrow night with some people -- some government people. I want you to show them a good time in Havana." Fredo seems to smirk, resignedly, and says, "My specialty, right?" as if that's all Michael ever expected of him. It adds to the force of Fredo's outburst in the boathouse later, when he shouts, "Send Fredo to do this, send Fredo to do that...send Fredo to run some Mickey Mouse nightclub somewhere."
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/02/18 06:47 PM

I agree TB. However, I think that his words were also the result of his frustration with himself, his realization that he did not have the force that Sonny had nor Michael's intelligence.

On the other hand, should Michael have detected in Fredo the potential for betrayal? Also, why was Havana Fredo's "kind of town" if he had never been there before? Did he know it by reputation perhaps? How did he come to so quickly know about the local drinks as he suggested at the New Year's eve party?
Posted By: JCrusher

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/02/18 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
When Michael and Fredo are having their little tete-a-tete in Havana, Michael says to Fredo,"Senator Geary is flying in from Washington tomorrow night with some people -- some government people. I want you to show them a good time in Havana." Fredo seems to smirk, resignedly, and says, "My specialty, right?" as if that's all Michael ever expected of him. It adds to the force of Fredo's outburst in the boathouse later, when he shouts, "Send Fredo to do this, send Fredo to do that...send Fredo to run some Mickey Mouse nightclub somewhere."

Despie that Fredo still wanted to help Mike. I still feel like there are people who feel like Fredo was cold blooded traitor because of the boathouse outburst. Yes he had those feeling BUT he was never gonna actually turn on his brother. Even mike admits Roth misled him and lied to him
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/03/18 05:32 AM

And the Corleone look Michael gave Tom

My take, for what it is worth!

Fredo seemed pleased that he was being included and proud of his speciality, showing people a good time

I didn't read too much into Fredo's "Havana's great, it's my kinda town" as anyone visiting a 'new' city could have made that same or similar comment, impressed with what he saw from the airport to the hotel
Also Michael knew a place the brothers can spend some time together

Besides Fredo would have to quickly 'research' the local drinks, local entertainment even perhaps 'sampled' the superman club! that night since Fredo was going to show Geary and some government people a good time the next day Fredo's speciality
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/03/18 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by olivant

On the other hand, should Michael have detected in Fredo the potential for betrayal? Also, why was Havana Fredo's "kind of town" if he had never been there before? Did he know it by reputation perhaps? How did he come to so quickly know about the local drinks as he suggested at the New Year's eve party?

Good questions, Oli. It didn't take genius for Michael figure that Fredo was too weak and stupid to run the family in his absence. But he didn't figure that his constant sidelining of Fredo into "Mickey Mouse" jobs (and his put down of Fredo in Vegas after the Moe Green meeting) would cause enough resentment to turn his brother into a traitor. Fredo might have come to Havana on his own and known how to show people a good time. But, I thought it was suspicious that Johnny Ola said, "We never met." If Ola remembered Hagen from the old days, he surely must have met Fredo as well. Why didn't Michael pick up on that? For that matter, Sonny should have picked up that Carlo would be filled with enough hatred of him after his public beating and humiliation that he'd turn traitor and set Sonny up.
As Vito said in GF: "Women and children can afford to be careless. But not men."
Posted By: JCrusher

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/03/18 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
Originally Posted by olivant

On the other hand, should Michael have detected in Fredo the potential for betrayal? Also, why was Havana Fredo's "kind of town" if he had never been there before? Did he know it by reputation perhaps? How did he come to so quickly know about the local drinks as he suggested at the New Year's eve party?

Good questions, Oli. It didn't take genius for Michael figure that Fredo was too weak and stupid to run the family in his absence. But he didn't figure that his constant sidelining of Fredo into "Mickey Mouse" jobs (and his put down of Fredo in Vegas after the Moe Green meeting) would cause enough resentment to turn his brother into a traitor. Fredo might have come to Havana on his own and known how to show people a good time. But, I thought it was suspicious that Johnny Ola said, "We never met." If Ola remembered Hagen from the old days, he surely must have met Fredo as well. Why didn't Michael pick up on that? For that matter, Sonny should have picked up that Carlo would be filled with enough hatred of him after his public beating and humiliation that he'd turn traitor and set Sonny up.
As Vito said in GF: "Women and children can afford to be careless. But not men."

Again it is important how you characterize a traitor. In my eyes a traitor is someone who consciously sides with another family to get your boss/superior killed. For Example Carlo was a traitor because he wanted Sonny dead after the beating AND he thought with sonny gone he would finally move up in the family. Tessio even though he was loyal to Vito and did like Mike he set up Mike to be killed to start his own family. Fredo on the other hand was different. Its clear he was misled and used. Was he weak,stupid,resentful? Absolutely. But it clear his goal in his mind was that he was doing something on his own but helping the family.....he didnt want mike harmed, he didnt even want him out as boss.
Posted By: The Last Woltz

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/03/18 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by olivant
Also, why was Havana Fredo's "kind of town" if he had never been there before? Did he know it by reputation perhaps? How did he come to so quickly know about the local drinks as he suggested at the New Year's eve party?


Where is it said that Fredo had never visited Havana before?

I know he claims not to have met Roth or Ola but I don't recall him saying anything about being unfamiliar with Havana.
Posted By: The Last Woltz

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/03/18 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by JCrusher
Again it is important how you characterize a traitor. In my eyes a traitor is someone who consciously sides with another family to get your boss/superior killed. For Example Carlo was a traitor because he wanted Sonny dead after the beating AND he thought with sonny gone he would finally move up in the family. Tessio even though he was loyal to Vito and did like Mike he set up Mike to be killed to start his own family. Fredo on the other hand was different. Its clear he was misled and used. Was he weak,stupid,resentful? Absolutely. But it clear his goal in his mind was that he was doing something on his own but helping the family.....he didnt want mike harmed, he didnt even want him out as boss.


This brings up an interesting point: What did Fredo really believe and want? Did he really think that no harm would befall Michael when he told Roth the layout of the house? Did he think that, if he helped close the deal with Roth, that Michael and the rest of the Family would be pleased and give him a more substantial role? Maybe make him the boss, to rectify the mistake of him getting passed over.

I think one of the themes of the Trilogy (and GFII in particular) is people lying to themselves.

Michael believes he can become legitimate while running the nation's top Mafia Family.

Kay tells herself that the Family will be legitimate within 5 years.

Roth thinks he can rule his empire forever.

And Fredo tells himself that he can take sides against the Family and somehow end up more powerful and respected.

They were all wrong and they were all doomed to suffer a violent death or the violent death of those closest to them.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/03/18 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by The Last Woltz
Originally Posted by olivant
Also, why was Havana Fredo's "kind of town" if he had never been there before? Did he know it by reputation perhaps? How did he come to so quickly know about the local drinks as he suggested at the New Year's eve party?


Where is it said that Fredo had never visited Havana before?

I know he claims not to have met Roth or Ola but I don't recall him saying anything about being unfamiliar with Havana.


Well, that's the point. If Cuba was Fredo's kind of town and if Fredo was familiar with Cuba's local drinks, then that should have indicated to Michael that Fredo had been to Cuba before.If Fredo had been to Cuba before, then Michael's suspicions should have been aroused.
Posted By: Evita

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/04/18 01:04 AM

My two cents worth! All sentiments aside...

No alarm bells for me either regarding "Havana's great, it's my kinda town" and later knowing the local drinks, local entertainment does not necessarily mean to me that Fredo had been to Cuba before

How else is he going to show people a good time without local knowledge?
Besides one call to the hotel concierge and he would have had all these information

Vito, Michael, Tom, everyone even well-versed Godfather scholars of this board! underestimated Fredo that he was so dangerous and detrimental because he was stepped over, for his kid brother

Nobody not Michael, not even Vito had any inclination how detrimental Fredo would be, arguably even setting Michael up to be murdered, for the Donship
Nobody detected in Fredo the potential for betrayal but in all fairness how and why anyone would ever even suspect blood family ever

Turnbull put it beautifully!
Originally Posted by Turnbull
He was such an ineffectual dunce in GF that his betrayal of Michael in II had strong impact--we probably never would have guessed he had it in him...and what else he might have tried if Michael had given him a pass. Guilt and gratitude are the most fleeting of emotions

It could be that Fredo had already been sent to Vegas before the old days Ola mentioned and "We never met." at the hotel or anywhere
He said “Johnny Ola bumped into me in Beverly Hills”

Fredo was constantly sidelined by Vito and Sonny, long before Michael took over but of course he would have never done what he did to his kid brother, to his father or older brother

Vito also figured that Fredo was too weak and stupid to run the family but also didn't figure being stepped over, for his kid brother would cause enough resentment to turn him into a traitor

I reckon Vito is the one who was most careless, destructive in not picking up on disastrous stuff out of the three even slipping regards Sollozzo who was not family unlike blood Fredo and Carlo who was also Sonny's friend prior to marrying Connie

Roth and Moe Greene connection had only just surfaced and I reckon Michael seemed pensive perhaps even suspicious when Fredo / Ola introduction was made, may have started to put the treacherous puzzle together but still in denial?

Brothers! Fredo arguably setting Michael up to be murdered, for the Donship Michael the Don actually murders Fredo
Posted By: JCrusher

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/04/18 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by The Last Woltz
Originally Posted by JCrusher
Again it is important how you characterize a traitor. In my eyes a traitor is someone who consciously sides with another family to get your boss/superior killed. For Example Carlo was a traitor because he wanted Sonny dead after the beating AND he thought with sonny gone he would finally move up in the family. Tessio even though he was loyal to Vito and did like Mike he set up Mike to be killed to start his own family. Fredo on the other hand was different. Its clear he was misled and used. Was he weak,stupid,resentful? Absolutely. But it clear his goal in his mind was that he was doing something on his own but helping the family.....he didnt want mike harmed, he didnt even want him out as boss.


This brings up an interesting point: What did Fredo really believe and want? Did he really think that no harm would befall Michael when he told Roth the layout of the house? Did he think that, if he helped close the deal with Roth, that Michael and the rest of the Family would be pleased and give him a more substantial role? Maybe make him the boss, to rectify the mistake of him getting passed over.

I think one of the themes of the Trilogy (and GFII in particular) is people lying to themselves.

Michael believes he can become legitimate while running the nation's top Mafia Family.

Kay tells herself that the Family will be legitimate within 5 years.

Roth thinks he can rule his empire forever.

And Fredo tells himself that he can take sides against the Family and somehow end up more powerful and respected.

They were all wrong and they were all doomed to suffer a violent death or the violent death of those closest to them.

There really no evidence that Fredos goal is to be the boss despite what he said about being passed over. Its pretty clear all he wanted was some respect as a mobster. He was well liked but mostly out of pity. I think some are still trying to convince us that Fredo was vindictive and treacherous like carlo and tessio. The film makes it clear that its not the case. Part 3 is about how the choice to kill Fredo was evil and senseless
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/06/18 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by The Last Woltz
This brings up an interesting point:
What did Fredo really believe and want? Did he really think that no harm would befall Michael when he told Roth the layout of the house? Did he think that, if he helped close the deal with Roth, that Michael and the rest of the Family would be pleased and give him a more substantial role? Maybe make him the boss, to rectify the mistake of him getting passed over.
My take, for what it is worth!

I believe the key to all these perhaps lie in Fredo's boathouse outburst
Michael certainly believed until Fredo's outburst, Roth mislead Fredo and he didn't know they were planing to kill Michael

My view and I hope no sleeping with the fishes for me! among others,
  • Fredo undoubtedly wanted to be Don Absolutely no question about that
  • However 'ostrich' Fredo may have closed his mind as to how he is getting the Donship obviously unless Michael, the current Don is dead
  • After the Tahoe shooting no more self-deluded beguile excuse as to how Fredo was getting the Donship
  • Fredo arguably opened the window drapes thus 'identifying' Michael's bedroom and knew it was gonna be a hit
  • Fredo tells Michael “I didn't know it was gonna be a hit Mike I swear to god I didn't know it was going to be a hit” but Fredo is never going to admit that he set his kid brother up to be murdered
  • Fredo's “You lied to me” to Ola could mean that they promised Michael would have been dead and Fredo would have been the new Don by now, the something in it for Fredo
  • Even Fredo would have known there was no way he could operate outside the Corleone business, something on his own
  • Ola's “Your brother's not going to find out we talked” could be a veiled threat, or else
  • Fredo's “I don't know what you're talking about” could be, leave me alone “you got me in deep enough already”
  • We are none the wiser as to what exactly was the little help Fredo gave Ola but whatever it was it was undoubtedly instrumental in the Tahoe shooting and nothing to do with closing the deal fast! .
  • If Fredo did not want to harm Michael why did Fredo still withhold information from Michael like "The Senate lawyer Questadt belongs to Roth"
  • Fredo's continued silence was because Fredo still wanted to harm Michael and try to send him to Prison for Don Fredo
  • How hard it was, like pulling teeth, for Michael to extract the information from Fredo in the boathouse

The thorn! in my theory is why did Ola phone Fredo about Pentangeli's meeting with the Rosato brothers?
Roth and Ola would have known, always knew that Fredo has no involvement in the family business and would know nothing about the meeting

So, what was the significance of Ola's late night phone call to Fredo?
The only reason I can think of for the phone call scene is to convey the information to the prospective audience that Fredo was the traitor
Originally Posted by Evita
Brothers! Fredo arguably setting Michael up to be murdered, for the Donship Michael the Don actually murders Fredo
Amen to that!
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/06/18 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by The Last Woltz
I think one of the themes of the Trilogy (and GFII in particular) is people lying to themselves.

Michael believes he can become legitimate while running the nation's top Mafia Family.

Kay tells herself that the Family will be legitimate within 5 years.

Roth thinks he can rule his empire forever.

And Fredo tells himself that he can take sides against the Family and somehow end up more powerful and respected.

They were all wrong and they were all doomed to suffer a violent death or the violent death of those closest to them
A few more, not quite in the same league! as yours though -

Vito believes his no to Sollozzo drug deal and then sending Luca over to Tattaglias will find what they have under their fingernails

Vito believes after the Baptism, Moe Greene, Carlo murders Michael can live a 'legitimate' life

Woltz acts he is bigger than the Corleones and wakes up with his prized horse Khartoum's head

Greene thinks he can slap a Corleone around, insult another Corleone and somehow keep the hotel

Carlo thinks he can lure Sonny to his murder and somehow end up as Michael's right hand man in Nevada

Turncoat Tessio believes he can set his Don up to be murdered and another Don will embrace him into their family
Posted By: Capri

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/14/18 12:20 PM

Nice take, Lana

Originally Posted by Lana
  • Ola's “Your brother's not going to find out we talked” could be a veiled threat, or else

So, what was the significance of Ola's late night phone call to Fredo?
The only reason I can think of for the phone call scene is to convey the information to the prospective audience that Fredo was the traitor

and “Your brother's not going to find out we talked” so don't blow our cover don't go squealing to your brother
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/29/18 07:50 PM

How about this: the scene is Michael entering Roth's home in Miami. Roth's wife tells Michael that it's okay and asks him if he wants a tuna sandwich. Michael says no and then starts walking toward Roth's tv room. As he does, look at Michael's left hand which would be on your right. Michael folds his two inner fingers into or near his palm while holding his two outer fingers relatively straight toward the floor.

Is Michael a Texas Longhorns fan? Is he an Illuminati? Is he giving the Italian Coma?

I seem to remember his employing that sign in another scene.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 12/29/18 08:01 PM

To that point: watch how Paulie gives the FBI guys the cornudo after Sonny spits on the FBI guy's credentials and roughs up the press photographer at Connie's weddinng.
Posted By: Guiseppe Petri

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/02/19 06:20 AM

Barzini would have kept tessio around long enough to get vital information, bring over his men then killed him
and make it look like the corleones did it for him leaving.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/27/19 11:13 PM

".. and the other two kids."

Sollozzo says that to Tom. What other two kids? Well, Fredo and Michael. What about Connie?

Of course, Connie would have been valueless in the business. However, it might also be a comment on the general perception of women during that era.
Posted By: DuesPaid

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/28/19 01:23 AM

Love the way Rocco looks at Moe Green in the meeting at the Casino.

Its like he is saying with his eyes, are you f n kidding me... this guy is Dead.


https://youtu.be/9DZNDEqcSi0
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/28/19 01:41 AM

In the same scene, look how disgusted Tom seems when Moe comes in.
Posted By: DuesPaid

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/28/19 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
In the same scene, look how disgusted Tom seems when Moe comes in.


Yes. I see that also.
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 01/30/19 05:45 AM

When Questadt asks Willie Cicci, at the Senate hearing, “You kill people at the -- uh -- at the behest of your superiors?” “Cicci's lawyer nods, gestures for Cicci to say yes....

I bet the lawyer belongs to Roth!
Posted By: Evita

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/05/19 11:20 PM

After Fredo's wife's drunken bahaviour, I reckon he is thinking I am gonna take over! I am gonna be the Don!! after tonight a real man

He played the weak and stupid but with a good heart, to the hilt

He might have perhaps felt a twinge of guilt that it was the last time he would see Michael alive
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/10/19 07:48 PM

Watching GF II today and the scene where Roth tells the mini-history of Moe Greene and Las Vegas. He states that Las Vegas was a stop-over for GIs on their way to the West coast. Of course, it may have been, but there's no evidence that it was.

This topic has received a huge amount attention on this Board. I guess it is a bit of my curiosity (and frustration) about how these urban myths get started and perpetuated especially when it comes to Las Vegas and Siegel,
Posted By: Evita

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/15/19 01:40 AM

At the superman club, just before Fredo's slipup that he was the traitor, the woman in the orange dress with Geary, keeps lifting the glass trying to get Fredo to drink more alcohol and he takes a sip

When he screams he was stepped over, in the boathouse outburst his right hand is like a piston like he was beating his chest
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/15/19 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by olivant
Watching GF II today and the scene where Roth tells the mini-history of Moe Greene and Las Vegas. He states that Las Vegas was a stop-over for GIs on their way to the West coast. Of course, it may have been, but there's no evidence that it was.

This topic has received a huge amount attention on this Board. I guess it is a bit of my curiosity (and frustration) about how these urban myths get started and perpetuated especially when it comes to Las Vegas and Siegel,
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/15/19 03:45 AM

Originally Posted by olivant
Watching GF II today and the scene where Roth tells the mini-history of Moe Greene and Las Vegas. He states that Las Vegas was a stop-over for GIs on their way to the West coast. Of course, it may have been, but there's no evidence that it was.

This topic has received a huge amount attention on this Board. I guess it is a bit of my curiosity (and frustration) about how these urban myths get started and perpetuated especially when it comes to Las Vegas and Siegel,

You're right, Oli:
Vegas was Nevada's fourth largest city with 5,000 (count 'em, 5,000) souls until 1931. That's when work began on the Hoover Dam. The state legislature knew the project would bring ~10,000 workers to a site only 20 miles from Vegas. They were going to gamble (illegally) anyway, so the legislature legalized gambling in order to bring revenue to Nevada and to tax the profits. At that point, Vegas became a boom town.

It pleases a lot of people to think Bugsy Siegel (aka Moe Greene in the movie) "built" Las Vegas. Fact is, it was a thriving city by the time he opened the Flamingo in '46. The real builder of modern Vegas was Moe Dalitz.
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/15/19 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by Evita
At the superman club, just before Fredo's slipup that he was the traitor, the woman in the orange dress with Geary, keeps lifting the glass trying to get Fredo to drink more alcohol and he takes a sip

When he screams he was stepped over, in the boathouse outburst his right hand is like a piston like he was beating his chest
Orange dress! she is a dead woman

Roth's speech about Moe Greene to stoic Michael - Ola is looking smug that Michael has no idea Pentangeli is alive
Posted By: Capri

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/16/19 12:39 PM

Why did Johnny Ola turn up at Michael table in the Superman club
It clearly made Fredo uncomfortable
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/16/19 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
Originally Posted by olivant
Watching GF II today and the scene where Roth tells the mini-history of Moe Greene and Las Vegas. He states that Las Vegas was a stop-over for GIs on their way to the West coast. Of course, it may have been, but there's no evidence that it was.

This topic has received a huge amount attention on this Board. I guess it is a bit of my curiosity (and frustration) about how these urban myths get started and perpetuated especially when it comes to Las Vegas and Siegel,

You're right, Oli:
Vegas was Nevada's fourth largest city with 5,000 (count 'em, 5,000) souls until 1931. That's when work began on the Hoover Dam. The state legislature knew the project would bring ~10,000 workers to a site only 20 miles from Vegas. They were going to gamble (illegally) anyway, so the legislature legalized gambling in order to bring revenue to Nevada and to tax the profits. At that point, Vegas became a boom town.

It pleases a lot of people to think Bugsy Siegel (aka Moe Greene in the movie) "built" Las Vegas. Fact is, it was a thriving city by the time he opened the Flamingo in '46. The real builder of modern Vegas was Moe Dalitz.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/16/19 06:45 PM

Finally, I watched a Mafia documentary last night about Las Vegas that told the truth: the Flamingo was the brainchild of Billy Wilkerson, not Siegal.

I was also surprised to learn that there were three people in the house on the night that Siegel was murdered: one was a companion of his and the other two were Virginia's brother and his girlfriend.
Posted By: Evita

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/16/19 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by Capri
Why did Johnny Ola turn up at Michael table in the Superman club
It clearly made Fredo uncomfortable

Perhaps Ola was trying to back up Fredo's earlier “No I never met them” with his “we never met” which means to me they were in contact in Havana

I reckon it is a reasonable assumption he would have known that Roth and Ola were in Havana
Then why did he ask Michael anybody I know in Havana? I reckon that was his pre-emptive bid of his treacherous role He is smart not dumb
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/19/19 05:47 AM

Did Al Pacino really slap Diane Keaton

When Michael slapped Kay in Hotel Washington after Kay's abortion / unholy and evil denouncement, Kay's reaction to the slap was either very good acting or Kay had no idea the slap was coming....

Kay gasped, jerked and staggered, falling back on the couch, in a heap [left handed slap from right handed Michael who was still holding the cigarette in his right hand!]

The above perhaps is not dissimilar to the below

I seem to recall,
Marlon Brando improvised slapping Al Martino to “act like a man”
Johnny Fontane's confused reaction was real as the slapping was not in the script

John Marley was not aware that a real horse head had been substituted for the prop used during rehearsals
Jack Woltz's screams were real when he saw the severed head of the horse which was obtained from a dog food factory
Posted By: Evita

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/22/19 01:27 AM

I hope he did! for what she did!!
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/22/19 03:17 AM

Well, that scene raises a couple of points:

First, Kay shouts with vehemence: "And it was a boy, Michael!" Kay was in her first trimester (when Michael asked Tom, after he got back from Havana, if it was a boy, Tom replied, "Michael, after three months?"). Amneocentisis was unknown in the US in 1959. Kay couldn't have known for sure if it was a boy. She spit that out at Michael to hurt him.

Second, how did Kay get the abortion? Although abortion was illegal in the US before Roe v. Wade (1973), any woman or girl with a few hundred bucks could have gotten one from a real doctor, in a medical office or clinic. But, Kay was a virtual prisoner at the Tahoe estate while Michael was away. Kay might have told Tom that "something wasn't right" with the pregnancy. He would either have arranged for her Dr. to see her at Tahoe, or had her taken under guard to a hospital. Either way, the Dr.'s identity would be known, and he would have had to certify that she had a "miscarriage." Think Michael would have let him get away with that? For that matter, do you think that any Dr. in his right mind, knowing who Kay's husband was, would have stuck his neck out?
Posted By: The Last Woltz

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/22/19 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
Well, that scene raises a couple of points:

First, Kay shouts with vehemence: "And it was a boy, Michael!" Kay was in her first trimester (when Michael asked Tom, after he got back from Havana, if it was a boy, Tom replied, "Michael, after three months?"). Amneocentisis was unknown in the US in 1959. Kay couldn't have known for sure if it was a boy. She spit that out at Michael to hurt him.


Yeah, there's no way Kay could have known that. It was either directorial license or Kay just saying it to hurt Michael as much as possible.
Originally Posted by Turnbull

Second, how did Kay get the abortion? Although abortion was illegal in the US before Roe v. Wade (1973), any woman or girl with a few hundred bucks could have gotten one from a real doctor, in a medical office or clinic. But, Kay was a virtual prisoner at the Tahoe estate while Michael was away. Kay might have told Tom that "something wasn't right" with the pregnancy. He would either have arranged for her Dr. to see her at Tahoe, or had her taken under guard to a hospital. Either way, the Dr.'s identity would be known, and he would have had to certify that she had a "miscarriage." Think Michael would have let him get away with that? For that matter, do you think that any Dr. in his right mind, knowing who Kay's husband was, would have stuck his neck out?



There's a draft version of the GFII script floating around the internet in which Kay escapes to her parents' house in New Hampshire while Michael is in Cuba. I assume that is when she got the abortion. It probably wouldn't have been too hard to find a doctor there who either didn't know who Kay's husband was or would have been close enough to Kay's old-money family that he would take the risk.

Whether Michael would let the doctor get away with it is an interesting question. One the one hand, it certainly would be in character for him to hunt down the doctor. On the other, the abortion was so painful and humiliating for Michael that I can see him just wanting to sweep the whole thing under the rug rather than getting other people involved with making inquiries, pushing a button on the doctor, etc.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/22/19 07:25 PM

Can we be sure that she had an abortion? Maybe it was a miscarriage.

If it was an abortion and Michael did murder the abortionist, that would certainly emerge during the divorce/child custody hearing. Given the investigatory/legal attention that Michael was receiving, would he add to it with a murder suspicion/charge?
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/24/19 06:05 AM

Kay's abortion Following on similar thread

My take, for what it is worth!

I too believe, it was a miscarriage [caused by the bedroom shooting trauma]

If it was an abortion [unconvincing indeed] Neri undoubtedly could / would have made discreet inquiries “to hunt down the doctor” who dared to abort Michael Corleone's child and the doctor would be sleeping with the fishes

From what we saw in the movie -
1. Kay told Michael, when they were dancing at Anthony's party [they seemed happy and Kay sounded genuine] the baby felt like a boy
2. Kay was a virtual prisoner at the Tahoe estate while Michael was away

If Kay wanted / needed to see her Obstetrician / Gynaecologist, agree, Tom would either have arranged a home visit to Tahoe or Kay would have been escorted to the medical clinic and escorted straight back to Tahoe, after the consultation

No doctor especially the family doctor would dare perform an abortion on Michael Corleone's wife
They would “realize what will happen as a result” of aborting Michael Corleone's child – sleeping with the fishes

I doubt there would have been any divorce/child custody hearing [Kay didn't seem to have any visitation rights even] as Michael would “use all his power to keep something like that from happening”
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/24/19 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by Lana


I doubt there would have been any divorce/child custody hearing [Kay didn't seem to have any visitation rights even] as Michael would “use all his power to keep something like that from happening”

See this for a discussion of the possible divorce process and the aftermath:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=36402&Searchpage=1&Main=2074&Words=%2BHow+%2Bdid+%2BKay+%2Bget+%2Bthe+%2Bkids&Search=true#Post36402
Posted By: SC

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/24/19 08:54 AM

..
Posted By: Capri

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/24/19 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Lana
Roth's speech about Moe Greene to stoic Michael - Ola is looking smug that Michael has no idea Pentangeli is alive


and Michael will never see the New Year
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 02/25/19 05:21 AM

Ref: How did Kay get the kids? [Thanks Turnbull for the link]
Wow! so many threads! There isn't enough time!

I still doubt there would have been any divorce/child custody hearing [Kay didn't seem to have any visitation rights even] in Godfather 2

I concede the children “did end up with Kay eventually” as we found out in Godfather 3

However...
We are none the wiser when Kay got the children....“We don't know when the epiphany started”
Posted By: Revis_Island

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/01/19 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by dontomasso
I will repeat what I have said elsewhere. Michael and Santino both resented and were a bit jealous of Tom's relationship with Vito. In many ways Vito understood that Sonny was nothing without Tom, and that if Michael was to have a "legitimate" careed, only Tom could be the intermediary.

The result was all the mean spirited things both Sonny and Michael constantly said to Tom.


Never thought of it like this before. Why do you think that they resented him at times? I think michael and sonny both loved Tom. But there could have been some jealousy there. I’m sure Tom did refer to Vito as his dad but in the scenes we saw he didn’t.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/01/19 04:33 PM

I think Sonny did regard Tom as his brother, but he said two stupid things that may have shown resentment: When Tom advised him to make the deal with Sol if Vito died, Sonny said, "It's easy for you to say, he's not your father." Later, before dinner, Sonny shouted at him, "Pop had Genco, look what I got." But Tom was Sonny's choice for brother, not Michael's. Despite his introducing Tom to Kay at the wedding as "My brother Tom Hagen," and calling him brother after the Tahoe shooting, I don't think Michael ever loved him as a brother the way Sonny did, and he probably did resent Tom--certainly he did in that flashback scene at the end of II.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/01/19 05:14 PM

TB, you're right about Sonny for the most part. But Sonny's mean words said to Tom were the product of Sonny's temper, nor disaffection.

On the other hand, I've maintained for years in these threads that Michael blamed Tom for the Corleone's misfortunes (so have some Board members). Following Michael's introduction of Tom to Kay as his brother, Michael states that although Tom might become Consigliere, he's not a Sicilian. After the hospital thing, it's Tom who advocates waiting and it's Michael who opines "We can't wait." which cements Michael's negative opinion of Tom.
Posted By: Revis_Island

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/01/19 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by olivant
TB, you're right about Sonny for the most part. But Sonny's mean words said to Tom were the product of Sonny's temper, nor disaffection.

On the other hand, I've maintained for years in these threads that Michael blamed Tom for the Corleone's misfortunes (so have some Board members). Following Michael's introduction of Tom to Kay as his brother, Michael states that although Tom might become Consigliere, he's not a Sicilian. After the hospital thing, it's Tom who advocates waiting and it's Michael who opines "We can't wait." which cements Michael's negative opinion of Tom.


What misfortunes was Tom responsible for? Also, would Tom have made a good boss? Or do you think that he wasn’t ruthless enough like Michael?
Posted By: Revis_Island

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/01/19 06:47 PM

I think it’s clear that Michael did think of him as a brother as he dearly missed him in Godfather 3.
Posted By: Revis_Island

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/01/19 11:27 PM

Michael Franzese said that The Godfather wasn’t realistic because Tom would never be consigliere. He clearly didn’t know that Vito knew that his decision would not come without gripes from the other families. But he knew Tom was best suited for it and he could be trusted as he was a son to him since he was a young child.
Posted By: OakAsFan

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/01/19 11:54 PM

Leave it to Franzese to start taking on The Godfather now.
Posted By: Revis_Island

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/02/19 03:50 AM

Originally Posted by OakAsFan
Leave it to Franzese to start taking on The Godfather now.


He said that a while ago but you hit the nail on the head lol. Sammy the Bull said the opposite. Many mobsters have said that it actually mirrored the Italian American mafia life and inner workings. Plus, The Godfather was based largely in the 40s and 50s. Franzese was not exactly in his mafia heyday yet at that time.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/02/19 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by Revis_Island


What misfortunes was Tom responsible for? Also, would Tom have made a good boss? Or do you think that he wasn’t ruthless enough like Michael?

Tom wasn't Sicilian, so he didn't fully understand a Sicilian's overarching need for honor and vengeance against all logic. And, as a lawyer, he was oriented toward conciliation and negotiation, not toward force.

Those two traits combined in Tom's failure to anticipate that Carlo would beat up Connie a second time to provoke Sonny losing his temper and falling into his fatal trap. In the novel, Tom, after learning of Sonny's murder, tells himself that he's "no wartime consiglieri; old Genco would have smelled a rat." I'm guessing that Tom's original sin against Michael was in that failure, which resulted in Sonny's death and Michael's having to step into the Donship in Sonny's stead. What was more, Tom failed to learn that Pentangeli had survived, and that the Senate lawyer, Questadt, belonged to Roth. He said to Michael, "Our people with the NY detectives said Pentangeli was half dead, scared, talking out loud about how you betrayed him." Duuh, Tom--how come you didn't check in with "our people with the NY detectives" before you let your one and only client perjured himself five times?
Posted By: Revis_Island

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/02/19 03:48 PM

Michael and Sonny were also American so maybe that’s why certain things go by them as well. But Vito should have seen retaliation from Sollozzo coming
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/02/19 04:23 PM

TB, good analysis. I would add the scenes in II when Michael introduced Tom simply as his lawyer and when he told Ola that Tom only handled certain family business. In addition, I always thought that Michael blamed Tom for Geary's knowledge of Michael's intention to move against the Tropigala.
Posted By: Revis_Island

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/02/19 07:23 PM

Tom also clearly does not like the direction that the corleone family is taking at the end of 2. He remarks to Pentangeli that “it was” in reply to his comment saying “Corleone family was like the Roman Empire”. I have never read the novel at all, but does it say Tom’s reaction upon finding out about Fredo’s murder?
Posted By: Evita

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/03/19 01:21 AM

My two cents worth!

Brothers, all sentiments aside....

I reckon the brothers loved each other but it is the business they had chosen

I don't believe Michael blamed Tom for the Corleone's misfortunes

Michael's comment to Kay at Connie's wedding "He's a good lawyer. Not a Sicilian but I think he's gonna be consiglieri" was long before Vito getting shot, Sonny's murder

I agree if not for Michael, Vito would have been killed by Sollozzo, with Police Captain McCluskey letting it happen

Sonny agreed to Tom's advocacy to waiting and it appeared so did the most experienced Clemenza and Tessio too
It doesn't constitute to me, negative opinion of Tom as I reckon it was all about Michael being the better strategist

I reckon Michael would have resented anyone mapping out his future, in that flashback scene at the end of II

No doubt Turnbull
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Tom wasn't Sicilian, so he didn't fully understand a Sicilian's overarching need for honor and vengeance against all logic. And, as a lawyer, he was oriented toward conciliation and negotiation, not toward force

Vito was slipping If anybody is to be blamed, first and foremost, it is Vito for appointing Tom as consiglieri
Michael's concern was justified and in times, detrimental too

Tom seemed clueless It was his sheer incompetence "Duh-h-h, Tom!"
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/03/19 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by Revis_Island
Tom also clearly does not like the direction that the corleone family is taking at the end of 2. He remarks to Pentangeli that “it was” in reply to his comment saying “Corleone family was like the Roman Empire”. I have never read the novel at all, but does it say Tom’s reaction upon finding out about Fredo’s murder?

The novel ends where GF ends--with Connie watching as Clemenza kisses Michael's hand and says, "Don Corleone."
You would definitely benefit from reading the novel.
Posted By: DuesPaid

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/03/19 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
Originally Posted by Revis_Island
Tom also clearly does not like the direction that the corleone family is taking at the end of 2. He remarks to Pentangeli that “it was” in reply to his comment saying “Corleone family was like the Roman Empire”. I have never read the novel at all, but does it say Tom’s reaction upon finding out about Fredo’s murder?

The novel ends where GF ends--with Connie watching as Clemenza kisses Michael's hand and says, "Don Corleone."
You would definitely benefit from reading the novel.



I started it and put it down after reading several chapters.

I need to pick it back up.
Want to finish it, it seamed to have started to loose me with the Sonny parts and girlfriend.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/03/19 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by DuesPaid


I started it and put it down after reading several chapters.

I need to pick it back up.
Want to finish it, it seamed to have started to loose me with the Sonny parts and girlfriend.



Read it! Read it! Read it!

By the way, it's Kay, not Connie and it ends with Kay saying a prayer for the Michael's soul. It's portrayed in one of the broadcasts, but I haven't seen it in many years. I wish they'd make it part of any GF broadcast.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/03/19 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by olivant
it ends with Kay saying a prayer for the Michael's soul. It's portrayed in one of the broadcasts, but I haven't seen it in many years. I wish they'd make it part of any GF broadcast.

Oli, I think what you're referring to is a VHS "Special Edition" (one of a zillion "Special Editions") that had additional material at the beginning of each movie. The beginning of GF had Puzo telling an interesting story: He had heard that Danny Thomas(!) was planning to buy Paramount so he could star in GF. "I was disturbed by that" (understatement of the decade). So, said Puzo, he contacted Brando about playing Vito and Brando said he'd be interested. At the beginning of the GFII VHS in this edition, we see a scene of Kay lighting candles in church and wearing a mantilla. And, you're right: the novel ends with Kay taking vows in the Catholic Church and going with Mama daily to say prayers for their husbands' souls.
Posted By: OakAsFan

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/03/19 05:44 PM

The movie is better than the book. Once Coppola edited out the 500 or so pages of Puzo's hard-on for Sinatra, there was quite a good story here.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/03/19 06:26 PM

I like the novel a lot. But, I agree about Johnny Fontaine. His character was useful in the beginning in order to set up a display of Vito's power and his willingness to go the distance for his godson. After that, Fontaine was there just to let Puzo show off his Hollywood BS. Puzo spent a lot of time in Hollywood, and he couldn't resist showing it off through Fontaine and Nino. His Hollywood BS just about ruined "The Last Don."
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/03/19 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
I like the novel a lot. But, I agree about Johnny Fontaine. His character was useful in the beginning in order to set up a display of Vito's power and his willingness to go the distance for his godson. After that, Fontaine was there just to let Puzo show off his Hollywood BS. Puzo spent a lot of time in Hollywood, and he couldn't resist showing it off through Fontaine and Nino. His Hollywood BS just about ruined "The Last Don."


TB, did Puzo ever explain why he included so much of the Fontaine/Lucy thread in his novel?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/04/19 03:17 AM

Oli, I've never seen a direct quote from Puzo on Johnny Fontaine/Frank Sinatra. But, it's a good guess that since he borrowed and adapted real-life Mafia characters and events to the novel, Puzo was repeating old stories about how feared NJ caporegime Willie Moretti coerced studio chief Harry Cohn to give Sinatra the part in "From Here to Eternity" that resurrected his career. That story isn't true: Cohn gave the part to Sinatra because his original choice, Eli Wallach, "wasn't skinny enough." It was also rumored that Sinatra sang at Moretti's daughter's wedding.

As for Jules/Lucy (one of the most boring and unnecessary parts of the novel, IMO): I've long believed that he included it so he could describe her gynecological operation in detail. I'm betting that one of Puzo's female relatives/friends had the operation. It fascinated him, and he couldn't resist putting it in the novel, in detail--just as he included all that Hollywood BS in detail.
Posted By: OakAsFan

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/04/19 05:03 AM

Turnbull did you post that article about Sinatra and Puzo's clash at a restaurant? Anyhow, Puzo says he didn't even want to meet Sinatra, but his agent or something insisted on it and said Frank wanted to meet him. So Puzo approaches Frank as Frank's eating, and introduces himself. Sinatra ignores him and keeps eating. Puzo talked about how weird it was being snubbed by someone he had no intention of impressing in the first place. This reminds me of the Sopranos scene where John Sack tells Ralphie that everything is okay between him and Tony, that he should go see him etc. and when he does Tony ignores him...while eating. Wonder if the Puzo-Sinatra story is where they got that idea.
Posted By: The Last Woltz

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/04/19 03:54 PM

I think most everyone would agree that the Jules/Lucy subplot was the novel's low point.

What I loved best about it was the background it gives on some smaller characters of the film - Luca Brasi, Neri, "the negotiator," etc.
Posted By: Revis_Island

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/05/19 05:21 AM

Does anyone think Vinny would’ve been a good boss? Was always interested in them making a movie about him. Maybe with the de-aging technology, they can still do it. But they won’t.
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/05/19 06:51 AM

Probably not! Vincent is too hot-headed, like his father Santino, to make a good boss
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/05/19 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by Evita
My two cents worth!

Brothers, all sentiments aside....

I reckon the brothers loved each other but it is the business they had chosen

I don't believe Michael blamed Tom for the Corleone's misfortunes

Michael's comment to Kay at Connie's wedding "He's a good lawyer. Not a Sicilian but I think he's gonna be consiglieri" was long before Vito getting shot, Sonny's murder

I agree if not for Michael, Vito would have been killed by Sollozzo, with Police Captain McCluskey letting it happen

Sonny agreed to Tom's advocacy to waiting and it appeared so did the most experienced Clemenza and Tessio too
It doesn't constitute to me, negative opinion of Tom as I reckon it was all about Michael being the better strategist

I reckon Michael would have resented anyone mapping out his future, in that flashback scene at the end of II

No doubt Turnbull
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Tom wasn't Sicilian, so he didn't fully understand a Sicilian's overarching need for honor and vengeance against all logic. And, as a lawyer, he was oriented toward conciliation and negotiation, not toward force

Vito was slipping If anybody is to be blamed, first and foremost, it is Vito for appointing Tom as consiglieri
Michael's concern was justified and in times, detrimental too

Tom seemed clueless It was his sheer incompetence "Duh-h-h, Tom!"
My take, for what it is worth!

It did not seem to me either “Michael blamed Tom for the Corleone's misfortunes”

Sure thing "the brothers loved each other but it is the business they had chosen"

Michael told blood brother Fredo off for taking sides against the family in the Las Vegas Greene incident ie: makes no difference blood or step brother
[Michael introduced Tom to Kay as “my brother”]

Vito knew Tom was not a wartime consiglieri yet Vito made Tom, good lawyer, not a Sicilian, the consiglieri albeit in 'peace' time
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/05/19 06:51 AM

Ref: thread Tom and Fredo may be of interest regarding Tom's shortcomings

Than again, Michael had his own shortcomings and failings as well among others,

  • [also Don Tommasino] underestimating Fabrizio
  • falling for 'spin doctor' Ola's 'propaganda' about Tropigala that Michael can move Klingman out and their friend [Roth] in Miami will go along [in spte of Ola bringing an orange! from Miami]
  • underestimating Roth
  • [also Vito] underestimating Fredo
  • underestimating the Rosato brothers that they would “settle these troubles” with Pentangeli
  • underestimating Kay [Kay overestimating Michael and self-deceiving, unrealistic legitimacy, let alone in five years]
  • underestimating Anthony
  • overestimating Vincent

Perhaps Michael could [should?] have handled differently
  • [also Vito] giving Fredo at least a face saving role in the family to show that Fredo is valued in his own right
  • Michael not comforting his wife, Kay who just had a 'miscarriage'
  • Perhaps if Michael had the same “losing the family” talk with Kay......second chance at their marriage
  • The treatment of Tom the only person Michael could trust even though Tom was not the most competent! consigliere
  • Hanging Frankie Pentangeli out to dry
  • Not taking care of the 'dead' capo Frankie's family
  • Killing his own blood brother Fredo
  • handed Mary on a platter to Mosca Another woman dying in place of Michael
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/05/19 07:04 AM

Oak, I didn't post the story about Puzo meeting Sinatra, but I read it elsewhere.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/05/19 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by The Last Woltz
I think most everyone would agree that the Jules/Lucy subplot was the novel's low point.

What I loved best about it was the background it gives on some smaller characters of the film - Luca Brasi, Neri, "the negotiator," etc.

Agreed. The best stories were how they found Neri, the Bocchiccios, Sonny and the boiler repairmen, Vito and his war with "Maranzalla" and Luca and the Capone gunmen.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/05/19 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by Revis_Island
Does anyone think Vinny would’ve been a good boss? Was always interested in them making fmovie about him. Maybe with the de-aging technology, they can still do it. But they won’t.

Vincent showed some maturity toward the end. But, when Michael told him, "Nephew, call yourself Vincent Corleone" toward the end, I think he was using him in two ways: 1) get him away from Mary; 2) put him in charge of the remaining muscle end of the family and maybe the "Olive Oil Business, but mostly as Michael's protector. Saying, "Call yourself Vincent Corleone" was a great way to cement his undying loyalty by finally accepting him as a real member of the family. But, I don't think Michael ever had him in mind as a successor to his legitimate business interests.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/07/19 04:40 AM

When you think about it TB, why did Michael take Vincent on after Vincent murdered the two assassins that Zasa sent? As Michael's protector? Did Michael anticipate troubles? That's a curious scene.

Regardless, Vincent was a pale imitation of Michael as Don. I think Vincent represents the new breed of Mafiosi who just don't have the acumen, the substance that previous Mafiosi (apparently) had. To me, they seem like just muscle.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/07/19 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by olivant
When you think about it TB, why did Michael take Vincent on after Vincent murdered the two assassins that Zasa sent? As Michael's protector? Did Michael anticipate troubles? That's a curious scene.

To keep the plot going, really. I suppose you could say that Michael was protecting his nephew, if you attribute that much family feeling to Michael.

Quote
Regardless, Vincent was a pale imitation of Michael as Don. I think Vincent represents the new breed of Mafiosi who just don't have the acumen, the substance that previous Mafiosi (apparently) had. To me, they seem like just muscle.

Agreed.
Posted By: Revis_Island

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/07/19 07:35 PM

Though I’m not calling for a Godfather 4, I would like to see a modern day Godfather spinoff set in the same universe.
Posted By: Revis_Island

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/08/19 03:10 AM

I always liked Garcia’s portrayal of Vincent and I believe that it was the best performance in Godfather 3. Unfortunately, because the movie was met with such a deservedly poor reaction then they couldn’t really expand on his character in potential future movies. I’m in the minority because I very much enjoyed The Godfather 3. I thought it was very good. Still some classic scenes and moments in there.
Posted By: Evita

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/11/19 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by Lana
Ref: thread Tom and Fredo may be of interest regarding Tom's shortcomings

Than again, Michael had his own shortcomings and failings as well among others,

  • [also Don Tommasino] underestimating Fabrizio
  • falling for 'spin doctor' Ola's 'propaganda' about Tropigala that Michael can move Klingman out and their friend [Roth] in Miami will go along [in spte of Ola bringing an orange! from Miami]
  • underestimating Roth
  • [also Vito] underestimating Fredo
  • underestimating the Rosato brothers that they would “settle these troubles” with Pentangeli
  • underestimating Kay [Kay overestimating Michael and self-deceiving, unrealistic legitimacy, let alone in five years]
  • underestimating Anthony
  • overestimating Vincent

Perhaps Michael could [should?] have handled differently
  • [also Vito] giving Fredo at least a face saving role in the family to show that Fredo is valued in his own right
  • Michael not comforting his wife, Kay who just had a 'miscarriage'
  • Perhaps if Michael had the same “losing the family” talk with Kay......second chance at their marriage
  • The treatment of Tom the only person Michael could trust even though Tom was not the most competent! consigliere
  • Hanging Frankie Pentangeli out to dry
  • Not taking care of the 'dead' capo Frankie's family
  • Killing his own blood brother Fredo
  • handed Mary on a platter to Mosca Another woman dying in place of Michael

Interesting list

He was upfront during his marriage proposal,
Been back longer than a year
Working for his father
Corleone killings
Illegitimate Corleone family business
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/11/19 03:43 PM

Back to: Did anyone else notice:
In the Havana nightclub scene in II, when Fredo is playing host to all those politicos, Sen. Geary, putting on his best leer, says, "I'll have one of those redheaded Yolandas" (referring to the singer on the stage. If you look very closely, Michael rolls his eyes, as if to say, "There he goes again, thinking with his dick."
Posted By: Revis_Island

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/12/19 01:38 AM

Do you think Geary knew deep down that he was setup?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/12/19 03:37 AM

I think Geary would have to be a lot stupider than he already was if he didn't pretty quickly figure out that he'd been set up at Fredo's brothel. Then again, he helped set up Michael at the Senate hearing. As a member of the subcommittee, he had to know that Pentangeli had survived, and that they were secretly holding him in reserve as a witness against Michael. By asking Cicci if he'd ever gotten a direct order from Michael (knowing that Cicci'd say no), he was helping Michael to believe that there was no witness who could connect him to the subcommittee's charges--and that he could perjure himself without fear of prosecution.
Posted By: Capri

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/20/19 11:25 AM

Godfather II
1. was Michael running the nation's top Mafia Family
2. did Michael blamed Tom for the Corleone's misfortunes
3. was there any divorce/child custody hearing [Kay didn't seem to have any visitation rights even]
4. did Kay get the kids
5. wasn't Corleone family direction not to be like the Roman Empire it once was
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/24/19 03:31 AM

Three great John Cazale moments in GFII when he and Michael are having their tete-a-tete in the outdoor cafe in Havana:
1. Fredo says, "Sometimes I think I should have settled down, married a girl like Kay, been more like..." He pauses. We wait for him to say, "like you." Instead he says, "like Pop."
2. He bends down, grasps Michael's hand, looks away, mutters, "Mikey, I was mad at you"--almost ready to make a confession. Then he tears his hand away, gets angry and says, "Why didn't we spend time like this before?" pulling back from the brink.
3. Michael tells Fredo that Sen. Geary and some bigshots are coming to Havana. "I want you to show them a good time." Fredo hesitates for a moment, looks resigned, almost regretful, and says, "My specialty, right?" I see it as a precursor to "Send Fredo to run some Mickey Mouse nightclub."
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/24/19 08:29 PM

TB, I look at Fredo's statements in a familial way. There are any number of siblings who hold resentments, grudges, and hurts against their siblings maybe because of the attention their siblings received from their parents. Of course, in the grand context of a Mafia family on film, those resentments become magnified.

Some of Fredo's language represents his frustration with himself: his failure to do this or to do that. Such frustration is common to many of us ("It might have been"). How do we assuage that frustration. Well, Fredo tried to do it by seeking solace in the arms (so to speak) of someone who gave him a degree of solace and comfort.
Posted By: The Last Woltz

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/25/19 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
"Why didn't we spend time like this before?"


Not to get too deep into the weeds, but I've always felt the wording and syntax of this sentence is fascinating.

Normally, if you're sorry you haven't had a great time together in the past, you'd say something like, "Why haven't we ever spent time like this?" That wording and tense implies regret for time lost but also hope for the future.

But Fredo uses "before" without "ever" and speaks in the past tense, showing that something has happened that will prevent him from having a fraternal relationship with Michael moving forward.

For instance, if you go to dinner with a platonic friend and realize you have feelings for each other, you'd say, "What haven't we ever done this?" But if you did it right after her wedding, you'd say, "Why didn't we do this before?"

Anyway, that is a great "tell" from Fredo that he knows that he has crossed a line that cannot be uncrossed, and also a clue that Michael didn't seem to pick up on at the time, but may have by the time the New Year's Eve party rolled around.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/28/19 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by The Last Woltz
Originally Posted by Turnbull
"Why didn't we spend time like this before?"


Not to get too deep into the weeds, but I've always felt the wording and syntax of this sentence is fascinating.

Normally, if you're sorry you haven't had a great time together in the past, you'd say something like, "Why haven't we ever spent time like this?" That wording and tense implies regret for time lost but also hope for the future.

But Fredo uses "before" without "ever" and speaks in the past tense, showing that something has happened that will prevent him from having a fraternal relationship with Michael moving forward.

For instance, if you go to dinner with a platonic friend and realize you have feelings for each other, you'd say, "What haven't we ever done this?" But if you did it right after her wedding, you'd say, "Why didn't we do this before?"

Anyway, that is a great "tell" from Fredo that he knows that he has crossed a line that cannot be uncrossed, and also a clue that Michael didn't seem to pick up on at the time, but may have by the time the New Year's Eve party rolled around.


You have a good point Woltz. Fredo's lament is the epitome of regret (what might have been).

By the way, in what part of Pittsburgh do you live?
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/30/19 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by The Last Woltz
Originally Posted by Turnbull
"Why didn't we spend time like this before?"


Not to get too deep into the weeds, but I've always felt the wording and syntax of this sentence is fascinating.

Normally, if you're sorry you haven't had a great time together in the past, you'd say something like, "Why haven't we ever spent time like this?" That wording and tense implies regret for time lost but also hope for the future.

But Fredo uses "before" without "ever" and speaks in the past tense, showing that something has happened that will prevent him from having a fraternal relationship with Michael moving forward.

For instance, if you go to dinner with a platonic friend and realize you have feelings for each other, you'd say, "What haven't we ever done this?" But if you did it right after her wedding, you'd say, "Why didn't we do this before?"

Anyway, that is a great "tell" from Fredo that he knows that he has crossed a line that cannot be uncrossed, and also a clue that Michael didn't seem to pick up on at the time, but may have by the time the New Year's Eve party rolled around.
Interesting post Woltz

Fredo could have still tried
1. having a fraternal relationship with Michael moving forward
2. to uncross the line he has crossed

Fredo could have helped Michael with what he knew for the senate hearing at least even after the first session
Surely, Fredo would have known that the senate hearing was coming but chose to keep Michael in the dark

Michael didn't seem to pick up on Fredo's great "tell" at the time
Did any of us board members? We were all in denial!
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Three great John Cazale moments in GFII when he and Michael are having their tete-a-tete in the outdoor cafe in Havana:
1. Fredo says, "Sometimes I think I should have settled down, married a girl like Kay, been more like..." He pauses. We wait for him to say, "like you." Instead he says, "like Pop."
“married a girl like Kay” oh! boy!!
Sure thing I think we did! wait for him to say, "like you”
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 03/31/19 04:25 AM

Geary sits down in Michael's office and tells him that he thought they would talk alone. Notice that the end table next to Geary has an ashtray and a lamp. When the camera next switches back to Geary, there's a glass of water on the end table. The camera switches back to Michael and then back to Geary as Neri walks past him. The glass of water is gone. When we next see Geary, he's taking his pills and the water glass is back.
Posted By: Evita

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 04/03/19 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by Capri
Godfather II
1. was Michael running the nation's top Mafia Family
2. did Michael blamed Tom for the Corleone's misfortunes
3. was there any divorce/child custody hearing [Kay didn't seem to have any visitation rights even]
4. did Kay get the kids
5. wasn't Corleone family direction not to be like the Roman Empire it once was

To my knowledge,
1. Yes
2. No I don't believe Michael blamed Tom for the Corleone's misfortunes
3. No not from what was seen in the movie
4. No not from what was seen in the movie Kay was banished I reckon without the kids
5. Yes from Roman empire to biggest legitimate gambling mogul
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/06/19 04:03 AM

My take, for what it is worth!

Desert Inn scene –

Rocco exits the room, joins two men [who were they?] and the three of them are conversing

Neri does not seem to even look in the direction of Rocco and the two men

1. Neri seems to hesitate as if unsure whether Michael meant just Rocco only, surely not both of them!
2. Then takes a couple of steps towards the coffee table, grabs a cigarette and exits
3. Neri does seem to stand just outside the sliding door, looking inside the room, how is it that Tom is still inside whilst Neri is outside!
4. Neri goes into the corner, squats on the floor with his back to the room and is smoking
5. Later we see Neri squatting, facing the room, I bet trying to lip read!

Whilst I too “cannot even imagine! anyone “demonstrating their dissatisfaction” to Michael about anything he said or did” Neri seems to but undoubtedly only because Neri knows Michael cannot see him!
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/07/19 02:57 AM

As I saw it, Neri hesitated before leaving the room because he turned back briefly to grab a smoke from the box on the table. Tom was in the room because Michael wanted to talk to him privately about Fredo's whereabouts. I guess it was too "personal' at that point to share with Rocco and Neri.
Posted By: Evita

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/12/19 12:48 AM

Good one! Lana cheeky, humorous post

The men could be the same ones who were standing up when Michael,Tom and Neri were walking past them to the Inn

Michael's head was down, his nefarious world, Fredo's betrayal weighing him down
No doubt more coming with senate hearing, Kay's abortion
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/12/19 05:03 PM

There was an interesting anomaly in that scene:

Michael was frantic to get Fredo on the plane with him that would take them out of Cuba. But, in the Vegas scene, after Tom tells Michael that he thinks Fredo's in NY, Michael simply tells Tom to get word to Fredo that he knew Roth misled him, etc. Since Michael was so anxious to get Fredo on the plane, probably less than 48 hours earlier, why didn't he order Tom to bring Fredo to him immediately? He waited until after his Senate appearance to tell Tom that he wanted to talk to Fredo.
Posted By: The Last Woltz

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/13/19 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
There was an interesting anomaly in that scene:

Michael was frantic to get Fredo on the plane with him that would take them out of Cuba. But, in the Vegas scene, after Tom tells Michael that he thinks Fredo's in NY, Michael simply tells Tom to get word to Fredo that he knew Roth misled him, etc. Since Michael was so anxious to get Fredo on the plane, probably less than 48 hours earlier, why didn't he order Tom to bring Fredo to him immediately? He waited until after his Senate appearance to tell Tom that he wanted to talk to Fredo.


Michael's head must have been spinning when he yelled at Fredo to get into the car. He was clearly devastated to realize that Fredo was the traitor. He doesn't know whether Roth is alive or dead. He is literally in the middle of a revolution without so much as a bodyguard. He surely hadn't had time to process and analyze Fredo's betrayal.

His reaction was probably a combination of thinking it would be wise to keep Fredo close and genuine concern for Fredo's safety.

By the time he gets to Nevada, he's had time to assess the situation. He knows Fredo is safe and that he poses no immediate threat to the Family. So he can afford to wait for Fredo to come back to him.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/14/19 08:30 PM

That seems logical, LW. And, by that time, he knew that Roth and Ola put Fredo up to his betrayal, so there was no more urgency. i
Posted By: Capri

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/15/19 11:36 AM

brother trying to get brother out safely
Later Don't be afraid Fredo everything is alright not knowing then how deep his treachery was, wanting to be Don
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/17/19 03:25 AM

After Roth chides Michael with his Moe Greene speech in Havana and goes in for a nap, notice the semi-smirking, condescending look Johnny Ola gives Michael, as if to say, "You think you're hot stuff, kid, but you can't touch the old man."
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 05/18/19 04:07 AM

Roth's speech about Moe Greene to stoic Michael - "semi-smirking, condescending" Ola is looking smug that Michael has no idea Pentangeli is alive and that Michael will be dead shortly
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/18/19 02:44 AM

When Sonny confronts the FBI agent during the wedding reception, the agent does not display his badge.

I also question the agents recording license plates numbers since they appear to be trespassing. The cars were parked on the compound; that area does not appear to be right of way or property accessible by the public unless invited.

I wish Kly was still around so that he could comment on such a legal question.

In II, after the gunfire at the compound, the guards close what appears to be the main entrance gates of the compound. Why were those gates open after dark, especially late at night?
Posted By: SC

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/18/19 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by olivant
When Sonny confronts the FBI agent during the wedding reception, the agent does not display his badge.

I also question the agents recording license plates numbers since they appear to be trespassing. The cars were parked on the compound; that area does not appear to be right of way or property accessible by the public unless invited.



oli, I think you're forgetting that this was 1945 and not today. This was not a time when Tom Hagen would have made a legal argument about the FBI overstepping their legal limits.
Posted By: Lou_Para

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/18/19 10:48 PM

The agent did show his ID to Sonny who then spits on the ground. As Sonny walks away.he says to Tom "FBI don't respect nothin". As far as being on private property.I agree that it probably was illegal . Had they been across the street it would have been another story,but as SC points out, it was a different time.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/19/19 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by olivant
When Sonny confronts the FBI agent during the wedding reception, the agent does not display his badge.

As Lou said, the agent did show his ID, and Sonny spat on it.

Quote
I also question the agents recording license plates numbers since they appear to be trespassing. The cars were parked on the compound; that area does not appear to be right of way or property accessible by the public unless invited.

As SC suggested, law enforcement tactics weren't as restricted then as now. I think in 1945, law enforcement was empowered to "inspect" cars that were "suspected of being used in commission of a crime." A stretch, to be sure, in this case. But, the FBI guys knew the Corleones wouldn't file a lawsuit or make any kind of stink--it would embarrass their guests.

Quote
In II, after the gunfire at the compound, the guards close what appears to be the main entrance gates of the compound. Why were those gates open after dark, especially late at night?

It looked like Michael had hundreds, if not thousands, of guests. Maybe all of them hadn't left yet?

And anyway, Oli, as you and I have agreed in many instances: directoral license.
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/19/19 12:59 PM

In the novel, Vito had advised his intimates to come to the wedding in a borrowed car.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/19/19 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by mustachepete
In the novel, Vito had advised his intimates to come to the wedding in a borrowed car.

He also advised some of the judges not to attend at all. If I remember correctly: he was somewhat pleased by Sonny's show of temper at the FBI guys because he thought it would make them believe that he hadn't anticipated their surveilance.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/23/19 08:15 PM

In II, at the end of the film, Michael sits alone on his estate contemplating his past and his future. Look behind him (near the top of the screen) and you will see several people walk by in line from left to right. They are dressed in black and you can only see them from about the knee down.

Who are they and what are they doing there?
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/24/19 01:54 AM

Never noticed that before. It seems Bergmanesque.
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 06/30/19 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by olivant
In II, after the gunfire at the compound, the guards close what appears to be the main entrance gates of the compound. Why were those gates open after dark, especially late at night?
I am not trying to reignite! one of the most debatable, flogging a dead horse topics!!
Perhaps Coppola was trying to tell the audience who killed the assassins! or “directoral license” indeed

Did Rocco Kill The Tahoe Shooters?
Extract:
Originally Posted by Lana
I believe there was a third [!] assassin who took care of the first two assassins who were probably told to wait by Fredo's bedroom for assistance but were always going to be killed to leave no loose ends

There was a car at the gates trying to drive off or something just after the gun fire and Michael's guards were shouting Stop! Stop! then Halt! Also the sentry was slack leaving the gates open

It seems everyone was pretty much slack after the big party
Rocco failed to secure the compound
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/02/19 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by mustachepete
Never noticed that before. It seems Bergmanesque.


Pete, when you get the chance, watch that scene again and tell me if it seems purposeful.
Posted By: Capri

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/17/19 10:10 AM

why was Rocco at the hotel He played no part in the senate hearing
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/18/19 01:51 AM

Do you mean the Hotel Washington? He was probably bodyguarding Michael, Kay and the children.
Posted By: Capri

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/18/19 10:00 AM

should have been Neri bodyguarding not Rocco He was presenting papers for Michael to sign, witnessing so personal children are outside we're going
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/20/19 04:15 AM

The way Kay sprung such a personal and private “children are outside we're going” on Michael in front of 'hired help' whether they be Neri or Rocco, was in extreme poor taste

Michael at least had the decency and sensitivity to send Neri and Rocco out of the Desert Inn room before discussing Fredo with Tom

Now that you mention it, it is strange that Michael was doing paper work with Rocco as such dealings would normally be with only Tom

Rocco just popped up! at Hotel Washington “I'll be in my room Mike”
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/20/19 08:17 PM

Rocco was the security guy in II. You see him scanning the crowd at Anthony's party. He's the "first responder" after the Tahoe shooting. Neri seemed like he was closer to the business side: in a deleted scene, he's the one who forces Klingman out of his hotel, and he leads the discussion near the end about Roth's prospects for avoiding arrest.
Posted By: Evita

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/24/19 01:36 AM

My two cents worth!

Rocco failed to secure Tahoe Why would Michael trust him bodyguarding Michael, Kay and the children, again

No doubt Neri seemed like he was closer to the business side and he leads the discussion near the end about Roth's prospects for avoiding arrest
He was the special assassin, chosen to kill Fredo, was told in advance too, not knowing when the mother will die

So, why was it Rocco not Neri or Tom presenting papers for Michael to sign, witnessing so personal children are outside we're going

Any significance in Rocco's presence
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/24/19 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by Evita
My two cents worth!

Rocco failed to secure Tahoe Why would Michael trust him bodyguarding Michael, Kay and the children, again



So, why was it Rocco not Neri or Tom presenting papers for Michael to sign, witnessing so personal children are outside we're going

Any significance in Rocco's presence

The Tahoe shooting was an inside job, partly (at least) engineered by Fredo. I don't think Michael blamed Rocco for it. He was still close to Michael at the Hotel Washington. Why? Maybe to give Rocco some more screen time to balance Neri's screen time. On the other hand, I believe it is significant that Michael sent Rocco, not Neri, on that one-way mission to kill Roth.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/24/19 02:57 PM

TB, as you point out, Rocco may have been given more screen time by the director and writers for what ever reason. That's probably the answer to many of our Trilogy questions: directorial license. Trying to impute motives to characters in anything (even real life) is a viewer's pasttime.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/24/19 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by olivant
directorial license. Trying to impute motives to characters in anything (even real life) is a viewer's pasttime.

The National Pastime here (or at lest, for me).
wink
Posted By: Evita

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/28/19 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
On the other hand, I believe it is significant that Michael sent Rocco, not Neri, on that one-way mission to kill Roth

I might be in the minority here but I reckon killing Roth need not have been one-way mission

He was like a deer caught in headlights, having no escape plans whatsoever
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 07/31/19 05:19 PM

You raise an interesting point, Evita:

As portrayed in the movie, Roth was surrounded by reporters, cameramen and FBI agents as soon as he landed in Miami, so there was no way for Rocco to kill him except by getting right next to him. And, it seemed, Rocco's only chance to escape was by running--not much of a chance at all.

The point that has been debated here is why Rocco was selected for this seemingly one-way mission. In the preceding boathouse scene, Michael rejects Tom's suggestion that it would be impossible to kill Roth: "If history has taught us anything, it's that you can kill anyone." Then he immediately says, "Rocco?" I've argued (a stretch, I admit) that it's significant that Michael didn't say, "Al?"--thereby selecting Rocco for the one-way mission. Why? For Michael's purposes, Rocco was expendable, Neri wasn't. Rocco was Clemenza's man, Neri was Michael's man. Why did Rocco accept? No alternative especially considering that Michael had just humiliated Tom for saying it was impossible to kill Roth in the Miami airport.
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/02/19 04:12 AM

Another one of the most debatable topics!

Did Rocco Kill The Tahoe Shooters?
Extract:
Originally Posted by Lana
Rocco's killing of Roth need not have been a suicide mission at all
Rocco seems to have not planned the operation well, no escape plans at all
He could have easily shot Roth, camouflaging his gun and then instead of trying to run away in full view of the Federal agents, with the smoking gun still in his hand! could have just lost himself in the crowd The airport was full of people
Michal's choices
Extract:
Originally Posted by Lana
Rocco could have camouflaged his gun, say, perhaps in his pocket and even shot Roth through the pocket or something considering Rocco was so close to Roth? Anything but the way Roth's killing was done!
My take, for what it is worth!

I do not believe “For Michael's purposes” anyone is "expendable" Michael would not want to lose his men unnecessarily
Pentangeli was Michael's muscle Rocco was the security chief....

If my memory serves me right, I cannot recall any of Michael's men not coming back alive? from previous jobs

Neri been already picked for Fredo's killing So it is logical Rocco gets picked for Roth's Killing

Rocco's “running--not much of a chance at all” Buckleys and none!
The way Roth's killing was done, Rocco couldn't have stood out more if Rocco had a neon light flashing on his head!
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/02/19 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
The Tahoe shooting was an inside job, partly (at least) engineered by Fredo. I don't think Michael blamed Rocco for it
My take, for what it is worth!

The buck stops with the Security Chief The blame is solely on Rocco's shoulders

Michael was living in a fortress with sentry, armed guards, dogs etc. and yet assassins were able to spray his bedroom with bullets!
This ridiculous security breach "in my home" would have been the laughing stock

What happened in Michael's home was a disgrace! However acknowledge Rocco's incompetence was forgiven
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/02/19 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
Originally Posted by olivant
directorial license. Trying to impute motives to characters in anything (even real life) is a viewer's pasttime.

The National Pastime here (or at lest, for me) wink
InterNational! Pastime Turnbull (or at least, for me) Down Under, the Great Southern Land
Posted By: Evita

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/03/19 01:29 AM

Good points Lana

Michael would not sacrifice his men especially his top men and Neri already had Fredo's job so Rocco got Roth's job
Posted By: Capri

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/03/19 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Turnbull
For Michael's purposes, Rocco was expendable, Neri wasn't. Rocco was Clemenza's man, Neri was Michael's man


Both Michael's men now neither was expendable

Everyone of Michael's men came back alive from previous jobs
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/03/19 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Evita

He was like a deer caught in headlights, having no escape plans whatsoever


Rocco is shot while standing right next to a stairwell or escalator. We don't know what's at the bottom of those steps.
Posted By: Lou_Para

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/04/19 12:33 AM

Michael had nothing to lose by killing Roth in such a public fashion.

1) It signified to the other Families that no one,regardless of their power or position, is beyond Michael's vengeance.

2) No way, no how, does Rocco escape alive. No direct testimony from the shooter to implicate Michael.

3) Let's say Rocco does survive. He knows as well as anyone what happens to potential witnesses against Mike. I say he keeps his mouth shut,takes a deal brokered by some (unseen but friendly) Government/Law enforcement contacts,does his (less than life) time and retires to a comfortable existence.

4) Lastly,let's say Rocco is captured alive,flipped by the Feds and decides to testify against Mike.All you have is (at best) the uncorroborated testimony of an accomplice, which is admissible in exactly zero Criminal trials. No one in the room when Mike gave the order is going to talk. Given the whole Cicci/Pentangeli debacle, no prosecutor in his right mind is going to publicly "harass" Michael again,especially when he would be playing with an even weaker hand this time around. Q; "Mr. Corleone, isn't it true that Mr Lampone is a high ranking member of your Crime Family" ? A: No it is not" Q: "Did you order Mr. Lampone to murder Hyman Roth"? A: That is a complete and utter falsehood" "Thank you Mr. Corleone. The Prosecution rests".

At least that's my 2 cents worth.
Posted By: Evita

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/04/19 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by mustachepete
Originally Posted by Evita

He was like a deer caught in headlights, having no escape plans whatsoever


Rocco is shot while standing right next to a stairwell or escalator. We don't know what's at the bottom of those steps.

I will have to watch that scene again but as I remember, it is not the standing it is the running that got him killed
Posted By: Lana

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/10/19 04:19 AM

Originally Posted by Capri
Originally Posted by Turnbull
For Michael's purposes, Rocco was expendable, Neri wasn't. Rocco was Clemenza's man, Neri was Michael's man


Both Michael's men now neither was expendable

Everyone of Michael's men came back alive from previous jobs
The Godfather Novel - What did Don Vito Corleone see in Rocco Lampone

As user Danito on 23 May 2009 perhaps aptly posted
Extract:
Quote
So, just as Neri is Michael's Luca, Rocco is Michael's Clemenza
Michael's bodyguard in Havana, Bussetta died on the job

That's what happens! if you turn up with a coat hanger for Ola and try to improvise with a pillow for Roth [Rocco take note!]

Well, Bussetta was technically not one of Michael's 'regular' men in the family
Ouch! Is that why Michael didn't even bat an eyelid when Tom told Michael at the Desert Inn “Your bodyguard is dead”
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/24/19 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by Lana

Well, Bussetta was technically not one of Michael's 'regular' men in the family
Ouch! Is that why Michael didn't even bat an eyelid when Tom told Michael at the Desert Inn “Your bodyguard is dead”

Exactly. Bussetta was a hired gun, probably taken on by Michael because he couldn't be sure at that time that Rocco and/or Neri weren't involved in the Tahoe shooting--as he told Tom before leaving, "Our people are businessmen, their loyalty is based on that." Coincidentally, he wanted Roth to think that, by not bringing Rocco and/or Neri to Havana, he was still in the dark about who ordered the shooting.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... - 08/24/19 07:39 PM

This may have been mentioned before, but...

When Michael shoots McCluskey, the first shot is in his throat, but the red dot indicating the second shot, to his head, appears at the same time.

When Sonny is machine-gunned, bullet holes appear on his car, then disappear, then appear again.
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