Hagen was never really "out."

For all the carrying on, mostly by Michael and a little by Santino, Tom Hagen was never truly out as consigliere.

When Vito named him to succeed Genco, I believe Santino may have had reservations ("Pop had Genco look what I've got," and "No more telling me how to patch things up"). So did Michael even before he got into the family business ("He's not a Sicilian").

It is true that Michael told Tom he was out and was only going to be the family's lawyer in Vegas, and there was a scene in II in which Michael asked Tom to leave the room when he spoke with Johnny Ola.

In fact, however, Tom played a pivotal role in every single major move Sonny and Michael ever made. He was a critical player in the planning and execution of the killings of Sol and McK...he planted the stories with the press, and probably made the arrangements to get Michael to Sicily. After Michael returned, Tom knew he was building a secret regime (according to deleted scenes, anyway) and even though Michael said to him "You're out," he never really was. The proof of this was at Vito's funeral, BEFORE Michael had made a single move, he asks Michael "Do you know how they're gonna come at you?" And he says he always thought it would be Clemenza who would betray the family, not Tessio. Michael tells him his plan outright...he's going to wait until after the Baptism before he makes his move on all the heads of the five families. Then, in the execution of this, Tom is instrumental in setting Tessio up for his last car ride, and he is very much a part of Michael's interrogation and killing of Carlo. He is also involved deeply in compromising Senator Geary, in getting Frnkie's brother to the Senate hearing, and eventually talking Frankie into killing himself.

How do we reoncile this? Easy. Michael, the great manipulator, understood like Vito that Tom was not a bad consigliere, but he never wanted Tom to know that was what he thought. Instead he played on Tom's almost fanatic wish to be thought of as a "real brother" to keep him feeling threatened with being pushed out of the inner circle, if only to have the total control of everything that he craved. Accordingly, from time to time he would insult Tom, send him out of the room, tell him he was "out" and so forth, but if actions speak louder than words, Tom never left the inner circle and was always the consigliere for better or worse.

DT, I will again state that Michael blamed Tom for not protecting the family and did not like the fact that he was not Sicilian. The latter is evidenced by Michael's stement to Kay at the wedding reception. The former is evidenced by Michael's statement that Tom was out because he was not a wartime consigliere. Michael seemed to be a master of minipulation, but I detect inhis statements to Tom almost a contempt for Tom. Certainly his statementto Tom about his mistress was certainly unnecessary unless Michael held him in contempt.

Michael was a control freak who found fault with everyone except himself. even before he got "into" the family business, listen to the way he says "yes sir" to Sonny who has to be reminded that it would be inappropriate for Michael to go and check out Luca's place, and then Sonny tells him to be a big help aroung the house. The same goes for his "I wont panic" line when he is talkng to Sonny on the telephone from the hospital.

I am sure he resented Tom because he was not Sicilian, but as I have posted elsewhere I think he was always looking to have some contentiousness with Tom because he was jealous of him..."You talk to MY father about MY future?"...and his relationship with Vito.

If he blamed Tom for Sonny's death, it was blame misplaced. Sonny's temper got the better of him, and Barzini knew this would happen when he set the trap for him by having Carlo beat Connie up. Tom tried to stop Sonny, but there was no stopping him.

No...Michael didn't have nice thoughts about anyone except, perhaps, Mary, and look how that worked out, and for Don Tomassino (see my other thread).

Remember that, just after Michael told Tom he wasn't a wartime consigliere, he added, "Besides, who's a better consigliere than my father?" Then his father died and he needed Tom as his consigliere.

Michael was, indeed, the master manipulator. That's what he did to Tom after the Tahoe shooting, giving him all that crap about being his "brother," etc. And Tom ate it up. But, after he returned from Havana, Tom was the guy who "couldn't give me a straight answer anymore."

In III, Michael laments, "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in." Tom could have said that several times in GF and II, substituting "Michael" for "they."

Maybe Michael thought he was much smarter than everyone, that's why he didn't need to rely on Tom for his advice. Only was Tom used for legalities & such.

Seems like Tom would be treated by Michael as a "brother" only if he was desperate for someone to trust during shaken times.

The full line is "besides, if I ever need help, who's a better consigliere than my father?" (emphasis added)

I don't think Michael believed he would ever need help, so he didn't feel he needed a consigliere (or ever had one).

Woltz, you may be onto something. I'd add that Michael (as I've posted above) was so disappointed (that's a nicer term for it) with Tom's performance that he just didn't want anything to do with a consigliere ever again.

Hmmmm. While I agree that Michael became an ego maniac / power hungry maniac, I also believe that Michael, on the advice of his father, kept Tom out of the picture on many things in case he needed him for legal purposes. Michael probably believed that he could take the family business into legitimacy in Nevada.

Not sure DC. Tom was in on the plot to kill Sol and McK. He wasin on the plot to kill Tessio. He was in on the plot to kill the heads of the five families (or is it four? Barzini,Tattaglia, Stracchi and Cuneo).He was in on the plot to kill Carlo. Tom was also in on the plot to kill Roth and he was the one who talked Frankie into suicide. That's hardly legitimate legal work.

Then again Michael was completely delusional about becoming legitimate. Once he shot Sol and McK he could never become legitimate....even in III when he tried to buy his way into legitimacy.

Yeah DT. That is quite a contradiction. Michael and Vito specifically exclude Tom from involvement because "things may get rough". However, the screen is then full of his involvement in those very things.

This might be explained as a need to keep Tom as the completely legitimate front-man for building the Corleone empire in Nevada. That way, Nevada authorities could not associate Tom with any of the family's shenanigans in New York. But, after Vito died, Michael needed Tom to complete his plans for the Great Massacre.

Didn't the Senate Committe have Hagen's picture on that board as a family member?

There is a "crime/fraud" exception to attorney-client privilege, so there was no way Michael could ever "legitimize" Tom any more than he could legitimize himself.

I think that something we don't know is how much time elapsed between Tom's move to Las Vegas (assuming he did) and the massacre. He was present at the mall for Tessio's and Carlo's denouement. If one of Michael's and Vito's objectives was to keep Tom out of things, they sure blew that.

Also, I agree with DT that Tom was just plain too immersed in Corleone family criminal matters and for too long for the FBI to have been mislead about any legitmate role. Still, as TB points out, once Tom completed his legitimate role in Nevada, Michael brought him back to assist with the day of reckoning.

Good question about how long Tom was in Vegas. My guess is not too long. For whatever reason I think the discussion in the den where Michael said he was making Carlo his number one man in Vegas, and
told Tom he was "out" was probaly in Febrary-March.

Vito dies in the summer of that year, so my guess Tom went to Vegas right away, set up shop, drew the contracts for Johnny Fontaine, and gathered enough information to inform Mike that Moe Green was losing money, that his hotel was vulnerable, and that he slapped Fredo around.

Why did Michael and Vito exclude Tom out about the massacre?

Well, I would argue they didn't. Others think that Michael did, but then brought him back in after Vito died.

One thing is sure about that particular meeting. Lies were told, the biggest one being that Michael was making Carlo his right hand man in Vegas. Now Tom and Vito had to know this was a ruse. Even before Carlo set Sonny up, in fact on Carlo's wedding day Vito instructed Tom to give him a living, and to NEVER discuss the family business with him. So from the beginning nobody trusted Carlo. I have often thought that this may have been instrumental in Tessio's betrayal, after all with the family on the run, Tom being moved out, and Carlo being named Michael's right hand man I'd be scared if I was Tessio.

Michael wanted Tom "out" for reasons I have explained in this thread. Vito told Tom he was a good consigliere, but that there were things that he did not need to be a part of. Those "things" of course were the plans to kill off the heads of the other families. Tom would have not been of much use in this planning. Michael had brought in his own people, Neri and Rocco to be instrumental in this, and even though Tom knew about the secret Rocco regime, he would not have been of any use in planning this.
Tom would have argued against killing Cuneo and Stracchi for sure. Probably Green too. He would be gaming out everything that could possibly go wrong, and they didn't need that at the time.
Tom - Michael, just hear me out. We get Barzini. We get Tattaglia. Cuneo and Stracchi will fall into line. Why bother with them?
Michael - They were in on it with Barzini from the beginning. They are as guilty of killing Santino as barzini is.
Tom - and what about Moe Green? He'll fold in a heartbeat once he sees Barzini has been moved out.
Michael - You surprise me Tom. Moe Green doesn't need Barzini, he has support in Miami, and he'll run there for cover unless we get him first.
Tom - Do you want to wipe everyone out?
Michael - No. Just my enemies.


Still, when push came to shove, Tom instinctively knew there would be a traitor, and he asked Michael if he knew how they were going to come at him. So with that how "out" was he?

I think once Tom saw the way Michael treated Moe Green he pretty much knew that Green's ability to 'tawk" to Barzini wasn't going to make much difference.

DT, I think there's much validity to your analysis. We'll never know if Michael's perception of who were his enemies was accurate or not. But, Tom tended to do what Lawyers tend to do and that is to mitigate responses. I add that Vito wanted Tom out because he realized that Tom was not, indeed, a wartime consigliere. He had a good brain for many things, but not glandular instinct for violence. I also think that at that point Michael's attitude toward Tom was just about at its lowest ebb if not actually there. It was only because of Vito's death that Michael had to seek out Tom later.

Agreed, Oli. But as always Vito had a way of putting things that Michael lacked. Michael says "You're out" "You're not a wartme consigliere."

Vito says "I never thought you were a bad consigliere, I thought Santino was a bad Don, rest in peace, but there are things that you must not be a part of...." He is sending Tom a clear messaage about his abiding affection for him and his understanding that Tom is and always will be loyal.
There is a direct correlation between Vito saying these things to Tom and Tom's very tough stance in Vegas when Fredo tried to appeal to his sense of reason and bargaining. Tom says that Vito is semi retired, and if you have anything to say, say it to Mike. Translation: If there was some division in the family over Tom's abilities, or Mike's plans, Tom makes it perfectly clear that while Moe is right about the Don being sick, that Mike is running the family business, and there is no going over his head to appeal to Vito.

That's why Mike...ever sensitive to any hint that he is not totally in charge...levels the threat to Fredo "Don't ever takes sides against the family again....EVER."
Vito would have said "I think you're going soft in the head from all those cocktail waitresses you're playing comedy with. Don't ever tell anyone outside the family what you are thinking."

I wonder if Tom's statement that the Don is semi-retired was a slap at Michael.

How much work did Tom actually do for the family? It seems as if they didn't rely on Tom's advice anymore when it came to wiping out enemies.

Why should it be? Tom knew that Michael needed time, and he was a quick learner.

Yup that's exactly how it goes in the book

Dunno. But if that's the case, then why was Tom ever allowed to legally represent Michael during the Committee hearings? And why did the Committee not attempt to subpoena records of any legal communications between Michael and Tom? And why did the Committee not attempt to depose Tom himself?

Keep in mind that while House and Senate committees do have subpoena power, that power is justiciable in federal court. That's why it took a Supreme Court ruling to compel President Nixon to turn over the Watergate tapes to the Senate Watergate Committee. Most of those committees' other investigatory powers are really just rules and not law. So, even a contempt citation must be referred to the Justice Department for prosecution.

Ah, right. That must be why Don Christie and members of the Christie Syndicate have been finding relative success in stalling the New Jersey Legislature Special Investigative Committee...at least thus far.

~ Q

My understanding is that a Congressional committee or subcommittee has the power to issue subpoenas for witnesses and evidence, and can cite uncooperative witnesses for contempt of Congress.

I also wondered about Hagen representing Michael when his photo was on the FBI chart. I was thinking of the last Gotti trial, when the judge disqualified Cutler and Shargel from representing Gotti because the government tapes indicated that they were "house counsel." But a Congressional hearing is not a trial.

Keep in mind that while US House and Senate committees do have subpoena power, that power is justiciable in federal court. That's why it took a Supreme Court ruling to compel President Nixon to turn over the Watergate tapes to the Senate Watergate Committee. Most of those committees' other investigatory powers are really just rules and not law. So, even a contempt citation must be referred to the Justice Department for prosecution.

Maybe Michael was really jealous that sonny dragged home an orphan waif who was adopted into the family, given a good education and set up in an exceptional law practice beneficial to both himself and the corleone family.

the rest of the corleone family treated him as family.

Michael and Tom could not come to that understanding and wrestled around it awkwardly though the OP above is a very rational logical explanation.

Could very well be. Jealousy is always a factor in family relationships. And, as we saw in the flashback at the end of II, Michael really resented Tom's working with Vito on Michael's future. Michael also may have resented that Tom's inability to anticipate that Carlo would sell out Sonny--dragging Michael into the Donship.

But, I think the answer is in Michael's controlling nature. Tom was Sonny's choice for brother, not his. Tom was Vito's choice for consigliere, not his.

Thanks and good analysis as always, Turnbull.