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Deanna was right.
Posted By: Danito
Deanna was right. - 06/14/12 01:45 PM
At the party she cries: "Never marry a Wop! they treat their wives like shit!"
For GF and GF2 this seems to be true:
Michael lies to Kay, leaves her alone, treats her like his property.
Sonny betrays his wife openly.
Carlo beats Connie.
From the novel we even know about the unfortunate marriage of Johnny Fontane.
There are some exceptions: Vito seems to have treated his wife respectfully, but she was a traditional Sicilian. Not a modern woman who claims some rights. And in the novel we learn that he the reason why he didn't beat his wife was that it wasn't necessary.
The other exception: When Michael teaches Appolonia to drive they seem to really have fun, a playful marriage. Though I think, we know already that even she wouldn't get killed, the marriage would be terrible. Listen to her voice when she niggles: "Michele, me a promiso!" ;-)
But I think that in the beginning, Michael's relationship with Kay was very promising. They were open, playful (the bed scene!), tender. But when Vito's shot, he loses her.
Posted By: Sicilian Babe
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/14/12 03:50 PM
It had nothing to do with the fact that Kay was his wife. Michael treated everyone like that - just look at Tom. As for Kay, he told her to never ask him about his business. She broke the rules. The sad truth is that Michael wasn't the young man she fell in love with; his years in Sicily had completely changed him. However, that was the man she thought she married.
Posted By: Turnbull
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/14/12 05:19 PM
Treating wives like s**t isn't confined to "Wops." I think FFC and Puzo were trying to show that, by 1958, the idea of "family" that united the Corleones had sunk into dissolution despite Michael's facade of legitimacy.
Anthony's party was a perfect metaphor: a child's religious rite turned into a cast-of-thousands party to shield the corruption and skullduggery going on in its midst. Deanna's drunken, wanton behavior perfectly underscored Fredo's weakness and frustration--all of it a big comedown from the unity Vito had assured with his strength of character. Connie said it perfectly at table after the "Cent' anni" toast: "It'd be true if my father was alive."
Posted By: Danito
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/15/12 11:46 AM
My point is that this bad treatment of women happens already in 1945.
Posted By: Mark
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/15/12 10:33 PM
I would hope that Mrs. Mark disagrees with Deanna's lament...
Posted By: dontommasino
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/18/12 03:36 PM
It had nothing to do with the fact that Kay was his wife. Michael treated everyone like that - just look at Tom. As for Kay, he told her to never ask him about his business. She broke the rules. The sad truth is that Michael wasn't the young man she fell in love with; his years in Sicily had completely changed him. However, that was the man she thought she married.
"Now who's being naive, Kay?"
That sums it all up, IMO.
Posted By: Danito
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/19/12 11:39 AM
Each child of Vito, including his adopted son and his godson had bad marriages.
Posted By: Sicilian Babe
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/20/12 12:59 AM
Who said Tom's marriage was bad? Where is proof of that? We barely see her in The Godfather, and they are affectionate when they are shown. I don't recall seeing her at all in GF2 and by GF3, he's dead.
And Sonny's wife was mostly accepting. Look at other mob movies - it was acceptable behavior for a man in Sonny's position to have a mistress. As a matter of fact, Vito was the exception in that respect. Sonny's wife doesn't seem terribly unhappy, and in the scene at their house when Vito is shot, they seem very loving toward one another.
As for Johnny, Michael and Fredo, I don't think that FFC had them all married to non-Italians by accident. It was to prove that mixing those two worlds didn't work.
Posted By: Bozak
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/20/12 11:13 AM
In GF2, when Michael confronts Tom in the boat house about the job offer he got with one of the hotels, he tells him that he can pack up his family and his mistress and move to Vegas. The fact that he had a mistress tells us that his marriage wasn't that great.
Posted By: Danito
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/20/12 11:31 AM
Sonny: His wife is really upset at the party. First, when she sees him after showing her friends the size of his best part. Second when she tells him "you watch yourself, all right!"
But you're right, in the Mafia it's acceptable behavior until this day.
Posted By: carmela
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/20/12 12:26 PM
A mafioso having a mistress is an american thing. In Italy it is unacceptable.
Posted By: Lilo
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/20/12 11:00 PM
But why would Italian criminals be any different than American criminals regarding having mistresses? Inzerillo had one; I'm sure there must be others.
Posted By: carmela
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/21/12 03:05 AM
But why would Italian criminals be any different than American criminals regarding having mistresses? Inzerillo had one; I'm sure there must be others.
It's unacceptable is all. I don't say it's never done. But it's very very rare, frowned upon and not advertised like over here.
Maybe it's cultural, I don't know, but guys there do what they have to do and go home to their families. They don't go hang out at strip clubs or bars, they go home to their wives. I have never even seen a strip club over there, and men don't go to bars to sit and drink like here, either. They drink at home. I'm sure there are some that have mistresses, but they're infidels and they would be if they were mafioso or not.
Posted By: Danito
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/21/12 02:08 PM
Reading the reports of Vincenza Rando, a Sicilian lawyer who represents Ex Mafia wifes, I think you're a little wrong, Carmela.
Here's just one article:
http://www.gangsonny.com/archives/1392Feel free to so some more research.
Posted By: carmela
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/21/12 03:51 PM
Reading the reports of Vincenza Rando, a Sicilian lawyer who represents Ex Mafia wifes, I think you're a little wrong, Carmela.
Here's just one article:
http://www.gangsonny.com/archives/1392Feel free to so some more research.
I said it's not the norm the way it is in the US and I also said it's frowned upon and not acceptable and not "cool" the way it is here. I'm right on all counts. Does it happen? Yes. Maybe even moreso within Calabrians than Sicilians. You can find articles about anything if you look hard enough, but it's still a rarity. Your article went off on a whole other tangent, than what I was talking about, too. I was strictly talking about the mistresses.
The whole concept of a mistress is what i'm saying is rare. There is no such thing as taking your mistress out on Friday and the wife is for Saturdays, again, like in the US. That is more of an Italian-American thing.
Thanks for more or less giving me your permission to "feel free to do some more research". Very kind of you.
My research comes from life, my family, and spending nearly every summer in the most mafia entrenched provinces of Sicily.
Posted By: Sonny_Black
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/21/12 05:52 PM
"Infidels", I like that choice of word.
Posted By: Heavy
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/21/12 10:24 PM
Carmela: Don't let snarky posters bother you. I, for one, am interested in hearing more of your views and opinions as a person that has legitimate insight from a real-world perspective.
Posted By: Mark
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/21/12 10:25 PM
In November 2007 Sicilian police reported to have found a list of "Ten Commandments" in the hideout of mafia boss Salvatore Lo Piccolo. They are thought to be guidelines on how to be a good, respectful and honorable mafioso...
1. No one can present himself directly to another of our friends. There must be a third person to do it.
2. Never look at the wives of friends.
3. Never be seen with cops.
4. Don't go to pubs and clubs.
5. Always being available for Cosa Nostra is a duty - even if your wife is about to give birth.
6. Appointments must absolutely be respected.
7. Wives must be treated with respect.
8. When asked for any information, the answer must be the truth.
9. Money cannot be appropriated if it belongs to others or to other families.
10. People who can't be part of Cosa Nostra: anyone who has a close relative in the police, anyone with a two-timing relative in the family, anyone who behaves badly and doesn't hold to moral values.
These appear to be old school values that indicate cheating on one's spouse is highly frowned upon "across the pond". Infidelity sure seems to be more of an American thing with these guys... of course there are exceptions to any rule whether you are a cook, baker or candlestick maker.
Posted By: carmela
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/21/12 11:39 PM
Carmela: Don't let snarky posters bother you. I, for one, am interested in hearing more of your views and opinions as a person that has legitimate insight from a real-world perspective.
Appreciate that Heavy, thanks. No worries, though. I don't give anyone time or concern enough to bother me.
I don't even know why I posted in a fiction thread. I usually stick to the Real Life forum.
Thanks to Mark for what you posted, as well.
Posted By: Danito
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/23/12 10:08 AM
Sorry, Carmela, if you felt bothered, that wasn't my intention.
Heavy, we're discussing issues here, sometimes controversial. This includes respectful conversation. If my choice of words seems inappropriate, it might be so because English is not my first language.
Back to the topic: True, the article is just one example. But Vincenca Rando describes elsewhere the situation of Sicilian mafia wives. They are treated as property. When they leave their husbands because of the pressure and humiliation, the husbands have them killed.
Just as a remark to Mark's point number 7 in the list.
Posted By: Bozak
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/25/12 02:09 PM
In November 2007 Sicilian police reported to have found a list of "Ten Commandments" in the hideout of mafia boss Salvatore Lo Piccolo. They are thought to be guidelines on how to be a good, respectful and honorable mafioso...
1. No one can present himself directly to another of our friends. There must be a third person to do it.
2. Never look at the wives of friends.
3. Never be seen with cops.
4. Don't go to pubs and clubs.
5. Always being available for Cosa Nostra is a duty - even if your wife is about to give birth.
6. Appointments must absolutely be respected.
7. Wives must be treated with respect.
8. When asked for any information, the answer must be the truth.
9. Money cannot be appropriated if it belongs to others or to other families.
10. People who can't be part of Cosa Nostra: anyone who has a close relative in the police, anyone with a two-timing relative in the family, anyone who behaves badly and doesn't hold to moral values.
These appear to be old school values that indicate cheating on one's spouse is highly frowned upon "across the pond". Infidelity sure seems to be more of an American thing with these guys... of course there are exceptions to any rule whether you are a cook, baker or candlestick maker.
#5 and #7 seem to contadict each other.
Posted By: Heavy
Re: Deanna was right. - 06/27/12 03:03 PM
Danito: No worries. Your english is certainly better than my german, which is ein bischen at best.