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The Rosatos' fate

Posted By: Sonny_Black

The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 03:24 PM

What do you think happened with the Rosato Brothers? Do you think Michael would've had them killed, or made peace with them?

The last thing we heard of them was at the end of Part II when Tom said that they 'were on the run'. But in the beginning of Part II Michael was even defending them against Pentangeli stating that Frank had denied them Clemenza's promises. He even withheld Pentangeli from killing them.

Couldn't it be that the Rosatos only held a beef against Pentangeli and not Michael? Weren't they manipulated by Roth?

I think the Rosatos would've been capable leaders, but I think they were too ambitious for Michael to control them. Still, I think there's a very slim change they could have taken over from Pentangeli. But by the time of Part III we didn't hear about them which implies they were out of the picture.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 03:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
What do you think happened with the Rosato Brothers? Do you think Michael would've had them killed, or made peace with them?

Just knowing Michael, it's completely unfathomable to me that he would have let them live. But I guess that's just my opinion, as there's no way of knowing smile.
Posted By: JCrusher

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 05:28 PM

Good question. I would think Mike being so paranoid that he would kill his brother who was not a bad guy he would definetly kill two killers who aligned themselves with his enemy. The thing is we dont know what happens to the crime family structure at the end. By part 3 we know Mike doesn't take part in the criminal part of the family anymore. Does Mike still run the criminal empire throughtout the 1960's or does he relinquish his control.
Posted By: olivant

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 07:06 PM

In a deleted scene, Manolo finances the Rosatos as they become the makers of Rosato Brothers Coffee the motto of which is "They sell coffee in their grandmother's neighborhood."

They later get into a fight with Juan Valdez, but Michael backs them in that struggle with Columbian coffee producers ("We're obligated to step in").
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 08:02 PM

lol

I'm with JC on this one. Although it could be argued that Roth was the prime mover in the Rosatos' attack on Pentangeli, they were still part of the conspiracy. Had they succeeded in killing Pentangeli, and Roth against Michael, the Rosatos would have taken over the olive oil business that belonged to Michael and that was being run by Pentangeli for him. That's more than reason enough.

But, we don't know what happened to the olive oil business after Pentangeli's arrest and the Rosatos' flight. I can't believe Michael simply walked away from it right then. Probably he appointed someone in Pentangeli's stead, and then gradually worked his way out of it. Zasa was in charge of it in 1979, but that was 21 years after the Frankie/Rosatos meeting.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 08:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Zasa was in charge of it in 1979, but that was 21 years after the Frankie/Rosatos meeting.

Exactly. Zasa would have been little more than a kid working his way up at that time.

The Altobello character was never properly fleshed out, but we can safely assume that he had some say in the post-Pentangeli era.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 08:12 PM

I'd think so--especially since he was tied in with Zasa in the AC shooting. But then, he introduces Vincent to Luccese as "the hero who killed Joey Zasa..." confused
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 08:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
But then, he introduces Vincent to Luccese as "the hero who killed Joey Zasa..." confused

I think it's pretty clear that he was just blowing smoke up Vincent's ass with that introduction.
Posted By: JCrusher

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 08:37 PM

Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Zasa was in charge of it in 1979, but that was 21 years after the Frankie/Rosatos meeting.

Exactly. Zasa would have been little more than a kid working his way up at that time.

The Altobello character was never properly fleshed out, but we can safely assume that he had some say in the post-Pentangeli era.

I thought Altobello was the don of one of the other 5 families. he just happened to be a close friend of the corleones
Posted By: olivant

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 09:11 PM

That's what I believe also. He headed then or prior one of the NY families, but not the Corleones.
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 09:13 PM

I think the Rosatos were dead men. Michael helped set up the meeting with Frankie, so he would their action as a personal betrayal.
Posted By: JCrusher

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 09:26 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
That's what I believe also. He headed then or prior one of the NY families, but not the Corleones.

ya i forget which other family it was but it was after mike killed the heads in 1955. I'm still not sure who took over after pantangeli. Zasa would be too young at that point. It seems like Zasa didn't take over until the 70's
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 09:26 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
That's what I believe also. He headed then or prior one of the NY families, but not the Corleones.


Which family do you think would that be then?

I personally think Altobello succeeded Pentangeli. He was way too close to the Corleones to be a rival mobster of another family. I think he was referred to as Don by Michael simply because he was the Corleones oldest friend and Connie's godfather.

Some months ago I made a topic of my thoughts about this:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=604759
Posted By: JCrusher

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 09:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
Originally Posted By: olivant
That's what I believe also. He headed then or prior one of the NY families, but not the Corleones.


Which family do you think would that be then?

I personally think Altobello succeeded Pentangeli. He was way too close to the Corleones to be a rival mobster of another family. I think he was referred to as Don by Michael simply because he was the Corleones oldest friend and Connie's godfather.

Some months ago I made a topic of my thoughts about this:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=604759

He was the don of the Tattaglia family
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 09:32 PM

Originally Posted By: JCrusher
Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
Originally Posted By: olivant
That's what I believe also. He headed then or prior one of the NY families, but not the Corleones.


Which family do you think would that be then?

I personally think Altobello succeeded Pentangeli. He was way too close to the Corleones to be a rival mobster of another family. I think he was referred to as Don by Michael simply because he was the Corleones oldest friend and Connie's godfather.

Some months ago I made a topic of my thoughts about this:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=604759

He was the don of the Tattaglia family


Who says so..? rolleyes
Posted By: JCrusher

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 09:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
Originally Posted By: JCrusher
Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
Originally Posted By: olivant
That's what I believe also. He headed then or prior one of the NY families, but not the Corleones.


Which family do you think would that be then?

I personally think Altobello succeeded Pentangeli. He was way too close to the Corleones to be a rival mobster of another family. I think he was referred to as Don by Michael simply because he was the Corleones oldest friend and Connie's godfather.

Some months ago I made a topic of my thoughts about this:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=604759

He was the don of the Tattaglia family


Who says so..? rolleyes

I found it on wikipedia and a few other godfather sites. One thing is for sure he was never a Corleone since joey zasa ghad control for at least a few years
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 09:37 PM

Originally Posted By: JCrusher
Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
Originally Posted By: JCrusher
Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black


He was the don of the Tattaglia family


Who says so..? rolleyes

I found it on wikipedia and a few other godfather sites. One thing is for sure he was never a Corleone since joey zasa ghad control for at least a few years


What's the original source?

That Zasa had control doesn't mean that Altobello couldn't be a Corleone. If you paid much attention when you viewing Part III you would have noticed that Zasa was nothing more than a pawn used by Lucchesi and Altobello.
Posted By: JCrusher

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 09:57 PM

Ya Sonny i did pay attention. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. We all know Zasa was used by Altobello and Lucchesis since Zasa was ad Mike put it "a small time enforcer who had braun and no brains." Mike put him in charge because he didn't care about the criminal lifestyle anymore. altobello had his own family i mean thst pretty clear. You do know you can be allies with someone even if you have different families.
Posted By: carmela

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 10:05 PM

Originally Posted By: JCrusher
You do know you can be allies with someone even if you have different families.


This is true. Always have more friends outside your family than inside.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 10:25 PM

Originally Posted By: JCrusher
Ya Sonny i did pay attention. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. We all know Zasa was used by Altobello and Lucchesis since Zasa was ad Mike put it "a small time enforcer who had braun and no brains." Mike put him in charge because he didn't care about the criminal lifestyle anymore. altobello had his own family i mean thst pretty clear. You do know you can be allies with someone even if you have different families.


Thank you for you're insights. But you forget to answer the question though. And could you elaborate on "altobello had his own family i mean thst pretty clear"?

Let's say Altobello was a Tattaglia member. What do you think his role would've been during the Five Families War? He would've been in a pretty though position; being a close ally to the Corleones on the one hand and a member of the Corleones arch enemies on the other.
Posted By: olivant

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 10:35 PM

In the novel, Altobello could have suceeded either Tattaglia or Bazini. In the film, he could have succeeded, additionally, Cuneo or Stracci. During the war in the 40s he could have been a capo, underboss, or consigliere of any of the other families.

The only relationship between he and the Corelones that we can be sure of is that he was the Corleones oldest friend. Profaci was a friend to the Bonannos. So, there is precedent for such a relationship families.
Posted By: JCrusher

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 11:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
Originally Posted By: JCrusher
Ya Sonny i did pay attention. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. We all know Zasa was used by Altobello and Lucchesis since Zasa was ad Mike put it "a small time enforcer who had braun and no brains." Mike put him in charge because he didn't care about the criminal lifestyle anymore. altobello had his own family i mean thst pretty clear. You do know you can be allies with someone even if you have different families.


Thank you for you're insights. But you forget to answer the question though. And could you elaborate on "altobello had his own family i mean thst pretty clear"?

Let's say Altobello was a Tattaglia member. What do you think his role would've been during the Five Families War? He would've been in a pretty though position; being a close ally to the Corleones on the one hand and a member of the Corleones arch enemies on the other.

Well man I'm not the only one who says Altobello was apart of another family so I dont know what to tell you lol
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/05/11 11:23 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
The only relationship between he and the Corelones that we can be sure of is that he was the Corleones oldest friend. Profaci was a friend to the Bonannos. So, there is precedent for such a relationship families.


Yes, but the relationship between the Bonannos and the Profacis wasn't exactly the kind of relationship between the Corleones and let's say the Tattaglias or Barzinis.

Anyway, in part III there's already a Don Cuneo so what's left are the Straccis. I find it suprising that there is at least one thing you agree on with Winegardner. rolleyes

If I was Tattaglia or Barzini, I would never, ever trust one of my capos who was the godfather of one the children of my biggest enemies. I would have ordered him whacked as a precaution. Or I would have ordered him to prove his loyalty with personally carrying out the hit on Sonny. wink

"Difficult, not impossible"
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/06/11 01:38 AM

Altobello could have been Pentangeli's succesor, or the Don of another family (probably not in NYC) that was allied with the Corleones. Or, he simply could have been a close friend of Vito, who honored him by making him Connie's godfather. Certainly he was connected to the Mafia in some direct way, although he wouldn't have had to have been an actual family head to have the honorary title Don.
Posted By: olivant

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/06/11 02:09 AM

DON ALTOBELLO: "As your family’s oldest friend, I’m always chosen to bring you messages.

Your old partners, are grateful for the money you’ve made them, they, they worship you. But their hearts are broken, because, they think you abandoned them. They want to share your deal on Immobiliare. To be a family again. It can purify their money.

I, I ask nothing for myself. Only peace in my old age. But I – I must please the world around me. Michael, your father was a reasonable man, learn from him."

Altobello sounds like a man who was in on Mafia counsels at the highest levels.
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/06/11 02:21 AM

Originally Posted By: olivant
DON ALTOBELLO: "As your family’s oldest friend, I’m always chosen to bring you messages.



I've never been up on the ins and outs of GF3, but could he be a Bocchicchio?
Posted By: olivant

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/06/11 02:44 AM

Being the default messenger between the families as he seemed to imply, that's entirely possible.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/06/11 02:59 AM

Sometimes, in the Mafia, a guy who doesn't have his own family, but is connected, can be that influential precisely because he's not a threat to the others.
Posted By: Danito

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/06/11 12:21 PM

Original geschrieben von: pizzaboy
Just knowing Michael, it's completely unfathomable to me that he would have let them live.


In a way, it's unfathomable he'd let anybody live.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/06/11 04:53 PM

Altobello being a Bocchicchio is another very plausible theory. It would fit perfectly.

It also seemed like Lucchesi was his superiour, which would have been a little odd if he was a boss of one of the major crime families.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/07/11 06:49 PM

I don't think that Puzo/FFC giving Altobello the title of "Don" necessarily meant that he was a boss at all. It could have just been an affectionate or diplomatic gesture by Michael. Don't forget, in Part II, Young Vito initially addresses Signor Roberto as "Don Roberto." And in that case he was only being tactful.

The term could easily have been used by Michael on Altobello as a matter of diplomacy. Same way he told Roth, "there's much I can learn from you," he may have just been buttering the old guy up.
Posted By: The Last Woltz

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/07/11 07:16 PM

Don't forget that Don Tomsassino credits Altobello with keeping the peace between Sicilian and American Families.

While his role in the Mafia structure is unclear, he is clearly connected on a very high level and not just some buddy of Vito's.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/07/11 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: The Last Woltz
While his role in the Mafia structure is unclear, he is clearly connected on a very high level and not just some buddy of Vito's.

I agree 100%, LW.

Altobello was clearly no bandleader! whistle
Posted By: olivant

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/07/11 09:05 PM

True, we don't know Altobello's origins, but there are so many Trilogy characters whose origins we don't know. As Woltz stated, he moved between the Sicily's and America's crime families. So, he had considerable clout and respect within the organized crime community.

When he rides with Michael upon their exiting from the China Bowl, he apparently has at least one bodyguard and a limosine driver. So does Warren Buffet I suppose, but there's no evidence that Buffet runs in organized crime circles. So, why does Altobello merit protection?
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/07/11 09:11 PM

It's very clear that Altobello was an important figure in the organized crime world, but whether or not he had his own family is only conjecture. Personally, I think an argument can be made either way.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/07/11 10:11 PM

In the first draft of the script (the only draft availabe on the internet) the Russo Brothers are running the former Corleone businesses, but in turn they work for Don Altobello. Why would any boss of the most powerful family need to work for a boss of another family? It doesn't make sense. The only explanation is that the Corleone crime family has become weak and is therefore dominated by a rival family which has become more powerful. But then; how could Michael still have control over the Commission if he didn't have the muscle anymore?

I wish Puzo was still alive to explain. Why don't we get an Ouija board and try to communicate with him. tongue
Posted By: olivant

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/08/11 03:29 AM

Altobello had been an investor in Rosato Brothers Coffee. Due to mismanagement, Altobello withdrew his equity and invested in Zasa Juice and spearheaded its expansion into Atlantic City.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/08/11 12:54 PM

As usual, you are misinformed.

Altobello was the mastermind behind the Great Massacre of August 26, 1955, on five o'clock in the afternoon. It was also Altobello who later threatened the senator to state false information about the date of this event during the hearings.

And he never invested in any business run by the Rosatos. In fact, he thought their coffee tasted like shit and had them killed for it by Manolo.
Posted By: DeathByClotheshanger

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/14/11 08:18 PM

Here is what Wikipedia says about Altobello, but I think it incorporates some of the Winegardner material into his backstory. FWIW:

Quote:
Osvaldo "Ozzie" Altobello is a fictional character and the primary antagonist of the film The Godfather Part III. He also appears in the novels The Godfather Returns and The Godfather's Revenge. In the film, he is portrayed by Eli Wallach.
He is an aging gangster and longstanding ally of the Corleone crime family. He was the consigliere of Rico Tattaglia from 1955 to 1961, and becomes the don of the Tattaglia crime family in 1962. By the time of Godfather III, he has become a close friend and ally of Michael Corleone. Altobello even donates one million dollars so he could be a part of the Vito Corleone Foundation. Aside from being an associate of Michael's, Altobello is also Connie Corleone's godfather.
Michael becomes suspicious of Altobello's motives after Joey Zasa, a Corleone Family rival, orchestrates an assassination attempt on Michael and other family heads assembled for a Commission meeting. Altobello leaves the conference room before the attack. Michael escapes without injury, but many of the others in the room are killed. Michael then instructs his nephew Vincent Mancini-Corleone to go to Altobello and pledge his allegiance to him, without promising to betray Michael.
While in Sicily, Altobello enlists the services of an assassin, Mosca, who conspires to kill Michael at the Teatro Massimo opera house when Anthony Corleone is set to debut in Cavalleria Rusticana. Before the performance, Connie presents him with a box of cannoli as a birthday gift. The cannoli turns out to be poisoned, however, and Altobello dies in his seat as Connie watches through her opera glasses.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/14/11 09:37 PM

Yes, Winegardner decided that he was the boss of the Tattaglia family.
Posted By: JCrusher

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/14/11 10:23 PM

Well since he is prominent at the commission meeting in Atlantic City I still think its a fair bet that he is a boss
Posted By: mustachepete

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/15/11 02:01 AM

Originally Posted By: DeathByClotheshanger
Altobello is also Connie Corleone's godfather.


I can't imagine Vito choosing one of Tattaglia's pimps to be godfather to any of his children.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/15/11 01:34 PM

Grazie mustachepete! smile
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/15/11 01:37 PM

Originally Posted By: JCrusher
Well since he is prominent at the commission meeting in Atlantic City I still think its a fair bet that he is a boss


It can't be ruled out that he was the boss of the Stracci or Barzini family. But I would think the Bocchicchios or the Corleones are the most plausible.
Posted By: DeathByClotheshanger

Re: The Rosatos' fate - 11/17/11 09:43 PM

Originally Posted By: mustachepete
Originally Posted By: DeathByClotheshanger
Altobello is also Connie Corleone's godfather.


I can't imagine Vito choosing one of Tattaglia's pimps to be godfather to any of his children.


True. However, he may not have been involved with that family when he was named Connie's godfather. Anyway, it was Winegardner who put Altobello into the Tattaglia family, not Puzo or FFC.
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