Mama's Death

Bit sudden wasn't it? She seemed in perfectly good health weeks earlier at the party, suddenly she drops dead with no explanation.

Anyone reckon Al killed her so Mike could kill Fredo quicker?

There's little to indicate what period of time elapsed between Tony's Communion and her death. The Communion would have been held in the Spring, probably April or May. Later Michael returned from a trip and spoke with her. There was considerable snow on the ground. The weather appeard fine when she died. I suggest a year transpired. Also, seeming in good health and being in good health can be two distinctly different things.

Wow, what a surreal theory! I like it. I don't believe it, but I like the bizarre-ness of it.

Most likely a heart attack. (Willie Cicci in the background, "That was no heart attack".)

Indeed. It were more likely months, maybe even a year or so. But everyone seems to have his own interpretation.



According to the final draft of the official screenplay the communion was in Autumn. The scenes were shot in early October which was about the same time.

Most Communions in the Catholic Church are held in spring, although there can be exceptions.

Mama was older and overweight. Definitely a prime candidate for a heart attack or stroke.

Like Mike she may have had diabetes which could have done her in.

As SB said, most Communions are held in the spring. FFC moved it to December so he could make a speedy transition for Michael--to Miami, then NY, then Havana to ring in the New Year, all in a matter of (probably) no more than two weeks. Evidently Michael had a lot of clout with the Church--and that was before he got pally with Archbishop Gilday and bailed out the Vatican Bank! Also, he had his own family priest, Father Carmello (just like medieval and renaissance royalty).

As for Mama: Michael returned to Tahoe probably right after he met with Tom, Rocco and Neri in Vegas following his swift exit from Havana. Mama looked healthy enough, but she could have been a heart attack waiting to happen. And, we don't know how much time passed from that scene until her death.

It was late November. The football game on tv at Hyman Roth's house (when Mike visited) was USC vs. Notre Dame, and that was played in November.

You should check the temperatures at Lake Tahoe for late November or December. Then check The Godfather II again. You will see that people are swimming, some only have shorts on.

It was early Autumn at the latest. The screenplay confirms this.

Directors shoot films as their resources and timetables allow or can be arranged - actors, places, equipment, weather, etc. However, I've never known of a Communion taking place at any time other than in the Spring. On the other hand, Ola et al arrive at the Communion wearing overcoats.

Ok fine. But the suggestion is that not much time spans over the course of the film, couple of months tops. So Mama must have deteriorated pretty rapidly

But it's also the director who decides when his film takes place. The screenplay says it's Autumn.

And believe me, if Michael Corleone wanted the communion to be held in Autumn, it would have been held in Autumn. If he could order the death of his brother and an arch bishop, he could as easily order the death of Father Carmelo, or sent Al Neri after him to give him an ass whipping if he would disagree.

When Hyman Roth comes back from Israel and wherever else he went to, he says he came home to vote in the presidential election as he couldn't get an absentee vote. The presidential elections were held in November 1960.

But the major part of the film and the time table you refer to from the communion to Carmela's death was probably only a couple of months, I would guess 5-6 months.

Like you, I also found it a little strange how she was death all the sudden.

But sometime after Mike returned from Cuba and the senate hearings are held against him, he goes to see his mother inside one of the buildings in the compound. In that scene you see her sitting by the fire with a blanket on which suggests she could have been sick.

I believe Michael had his tete-a-tete just after he returned to Tahoe, but before the Senate hearing.

Yes, the script, the football game, etc., indicate late November. But if that were so, Michael would have been away from the compound for more than a month. I think that's highly unlikely.

He's clearly away for longer than a month as he sees in the new year in Havana.

Roth's comments about the election is no guarantee that the election were close by.

The timeline in the GF films is always up to scrutiny.

Would it have made sense to the press if you say you came home to vote if it was to be a year earlier or so? Besides, you can only apply for an absentee vote one or two months before an election at the earliest.

If we choose to use Roth's absentee ballot remark as a guide, we first have to know in which state he was registered to vote. Was it NY or Florida? It was probably Florida. Apparently, Florida did not have early voting until 2004, but it may have had absentee voting since 1845. There is no indication how early a Florida resident may request an absentee ballot, so we don't know when his request would have been denied and therefore we don't know from that when he returned to the US.

Another interesting thing is that this whole situation of Hyman Roth fleeying to Israel is based on Meyer Lansky's departure to Israel.

He went there in 1970, but he was only sent back two years later because of his ongoing case with the Israelian government. This is a whole procedure that takes place and it's not something that is dealt with in a couple of months.

Meyer Lansky was only chased out of the U.S. by the Internal revenue agents or something like that. There was no indication at all that his life was in danger. Hyman Roth, on the other hand, knew that his life in the U.S. was in jeopardy and there was a contract on his life.

You really think he would not try the same as Lansky did at the least to try and stay in Israel? Hiring the best lawyers they have to make the strongest case against the government. This guy was a multi-milionaire many times over. He would do everything he could to not have to go back to the States and fear for his life.

Hell, he even offered Panama or some country a million dollars so he could stay there.

That would be true if the football game playing on Roth's radio were a definitive marker. But, I think FFC just used it as background (like the "shot heard round the world" on Sonny's car radio just before he was assassinated). As a practical matter, I don't think Michael was gone for more than a week or two.

The Nixon Justice Department created 18 "criminal strike forces." Seventeen were associated with cities; the eighteenth was focused exclusively on Lansky. That's how much of a hardon the government had for him.

Israel's Law of Return states that any Jew can, upon application, be granted Israeli citizenship immediately. It was amended in 1953 to exclude those whose presence would endanger Israel. Lansky had been convicted of only one crime--a small-time gambling rap in Saratoga Springs, NY, for which he served three months in a local jail. That wouldn't have been enough to deny him Israeli citizenship. But the FBI plied Israel's Interior Minister with tons of data from their records (a lot of it second-hand and hearsay). After he was denied citizenship, he appealed. The FBI invited the Israeli prosecutor to Washington, where they gave him full access to everything they had on Lansky. His appeal was turned down and he had to leave.

His "Hail Mary Pass" (no pun intended) was to try to sneak into Paraguy as an "agricultural worker." But the FBI dogged him every step of the way. After 36 hours of flying and being trapped in transit lounges, he returned to Miami.

Ironically, the government hit him with four charges. He beat all of them. But his defense left him broke.

It's still a mystery to me that a guy like Lansky in fact "seemed" to have hardly any money left when he died.

It was estimated that his net worth was about 100 million. Some people interpretated that this was his money. My interpretation is that it was probably the money his criminal associates owned for him to have access to. But since none of it was on his name, when he died, there was hardly any money left for his family.

But I'm stealing this topic here. This is a whole other subject.