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"It was Michael who killed Sollozzo" - Sigh

Posted By: Danito

"It was Michael who killed Sollozzo" - Sigh - 12/16/10 02:33 PM

When Tom says that Michael had become a killer, Vito looks not only shocked but disappointed, probably because he had talked to Tom about Michael's future and he wanted Tom to prevent his youngest son from being involved in the killing business.
But what kind of orders would Vito have given after the hospital attack, if he could have talked to Tom or Sonny? Would he have ordered to launch a press campaign against McCluskey?
What about the dangerous Sollozzo? What about the Tattaglias? (At that time he didn't know yet that it was Barzini.)
Posted By: Buttmunker

Re: "It was Michael who killed Sollozzo" - Sigh - 12/16/10 03:01 PM

Vito could have planted leads in the newspapers about McCluskey being a crooked cop, but then McCluskey would have given the reporter and its paper a very hard time, so he wouldn't have done that.

But I think he would have put some pressure on the fact that a cop was acting as bodyguard to a notorious heroin importer. The powers-that-be would have pulled McCluskey off, and Sollozzo would have been vulnerable once again.
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: "It was Michael who killed Sollozzo" - Sigh - 12/16/10 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Danito
what kind of orders would Vito have given after the hospital attack, if he could have talked to Tom or Sonny? Would he have ordered to launch a press campaign against McCluskey?



This is an impossible question to answer because the circumstances were that Vito was
critically wounded and unable to act, Sollozzo was going to try to kill him again, and
Sollozzo had a New York police captain as his body guard. So under THOSE circumstances Vito could have done nothing but be semi conscious in the hospital.
The whole point is Vito could not be in this situation and be able to decide anything.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: "It was Michael who killed Sollozzo" - Sigh - 12/16/10 04:43 PM

If Vito had been well enough to take command after the shooting and hospital attempt, I believe he would have tried to find a solution short of all-out war. His prestige, political clout and diplomatic skills--coupled with the fact that the head of the largest and most powerful family in NYC had survived and was in charge--might have forced a solution short of war. I'll guess that he'd have decreed that Sollozzo was to be killed--perhaps by the Tattaglias, since they vouched for him--and that the Tattaglias would have to pay an indemnity to him. But I'm sure Vito would want to limit killing because the more deaths, the more resentment, the more thirst for vengeance.

BTW: I've often posted that tipping the newspapers to Mac's corruption and his relationship with Sol would have provided a nonviolent solution when Vito was out of commission. The police commissioner would have had to provide uniformed protection to Vito in hospital, and would probably have suspended Mac "pending investigation." Sol would be hunted down and either jailed or deported. Vito's political muscle might have been used to either have Mac dismissed from the force, or prosecuted. There would have been no Five Families War of 1946--and no GF Trilogy.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: "It was Michael who killed Sollozzo" - Sigh - 12/16/10 04:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Buttmunker
But I think he would have put some pressure on the fact that a cop was acting as bodyguard to a notorious heroin importer. The powers-that-be would have pulled McCluskey off, and Sollozzo would have been vulnerable once again.


He would still have Barzini and Tattaglia backing him and providing him with muscle.
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: "It was Michael who killed Sollozzo" - Sigh - 12/16/10 08:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
If Vito had been well enough to take command after the shooting and hospital attempt, I believe he would have tried to find a solution short of all-out war. His prestige, political clout and diplomatic skills--coupled with the fact that the head of the largest and most powerful family in NYC had survived and was in charge--might have forced a solution short of war. I'll guess that he'd have decreed that Sollozzo was to be killed--perhaps by the Tattaglias, since they vouched for him--and that the Tattaglias would have to pay an indemnity to him. But I'm sure Vito would want to limit killing because the more deaths, the more resentment, the more thirst for vengeance.

BTW: I've often posted that tipping the newspapers to Mac's corruption and his relationship with Sol would have provided a nonviolent solution when Vito was out of commission. The police commissioner would have had to provide uniformed protection to Vito in hospital, and would probably have suspended Mac "pending investigation." Sol would be hunted down and either jailed or deported. Vito's political muscle might have been used to either have Mac dismissed from the force, or prosecuted. There would have been no Five Families War of 1946--and no GF Trilogy.



What Michael saw was it was "key" for Sollozzo to kill Vito. If that is the case Vito indeed would want him out of the way. While I agree Vito would have done whatever it takes to avoid a war, keep in mind that by the time it was decided that Michel would kill Sollozzo, Luca Brasi was already dead. Further, while Vito may have demanded the Tatts kill Sol to make things even, I am not so sure they could do it. Sol was working for Barz, not Tatt, and Barz with his outsized ambition may have pushed for a war...especially one between the Corleones and the Tatts with him on the sidelines if that was possible.
Posted By: olivant

Re: "It was Michael who killed Sollozzo" - Sigh - 12/16/10 10:09 PM

Both TB and DT make good points. Vito had so much to offer the other families that he was in a position to satisfy everyone by, as Tom points out, "making concessions in other areas". Of course, at the time, he didn't know that "it was Barzini all along". Once he did, that could have changed things. Vito might very well have agreed tot he drug business just to buy time until he could carry out a straegic plan of his own.
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: "It was Michael who killed Sollozzo" - Sigh - 12/16/10 11:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull


.......... There would have been no Five Families War of 1946--and no GF Trilogy.






.............and no George Hamilton!!!! clap
Posted By: babysinister

Re: "It was Michael who killed Sollozzo" - Sigh - 12/27/10 03:05 PM

With all due respect, the Don was slippin'. Could they have done that ten years earlier?
Posted By: The Hollywood Finochio

Re: "It was Michael who killed Sollozzo" - Sigh - 05/06/11 02:09 PM

Vito brands Sonny a 'bad don' but I think Sonny did the best he could, he didnt retaliate the second he heard about the shooting, he waited, he discussed, he found out who the traitor was in his family and had him killed - as Vito would have done, and he took Bruno out in part for trying to off Vito a second time, but also for hitting Luca Brasi...would Vito truly have not responded in kind under those circumstances? A man that one shot a man in the mouth simply because he demanded $200 off him?
Posted By: The Last Woltz

Re: "It was Michael who killed Sollozzo" - Sigh - 05/06/11 03:09 PM

Originally Posted By: The Hollywood Finochio
Vito brands Sonny a 'bad don' but I think Sonny did the best he could, he didnt retaliate the second he heard about the shooting, he waited, he discussed, he found out who the traitor was in his family and had him killed - as Vito would have done, and he took Bruno out in part for trying to off Vito a second time, but also for hitting Luca Brasi...would Vito truly have not responded in kind under those circumstances? A man that one shot a man in the mouth simply because he demanded $200 off him?


It's unclear how much Vito knows of the process that led to Michael's killing of Sollozzo and McCluskey, and it's unclear what makes Vito brand Sonny a "bad Don."

Hovwever, it seems like Sonny's desire to kill Sollozzo is the right move for the wrong reasons. There's no indication that Sonny thinks strategically or looks at the big picutre. He certainly doesn't seem like the type to keep his enemies closer.

Sonny is willing to let business suffer to get revenge and his instinct is to forego a peaceful solution on principle alone.

All in all, I'd say indications are that Sonny was bad Don.
Posted By: The Hollywood Finochio

Re: "It was Michael who killed Sollozzo" - Sigh - 05/06/11 03:17 PM

So didnt Vito risk everything, his life? the ability of his friend Tommasino to walk...just to get revenge on Ciccio?
Posted By: olivant

Re: "It was Michael who killed Sollozzo" - Sigh - 05/06/11 03:21 PM

Originally Posted By: The Last Woltz
All in all, I'd say indications are that Sonny was bad Don.


Absolutely. There's nothing in the film that portrays Sonny as anything except an aggressive hothead except his efforts to protect Connie. In other words, as acting Don Sonny pretty much seeks to assuage his own feelings instead of protecting his family's interests.
Posted By: The Last Woltz

Re: "It was Michael who killed Sollozzo" - Sigh - 05/06/11 07:02 PM

Originally Posted By: The Hollywood Finochio
So didnt Vito risk everything, his life? the ability of his friend Tommasino to walk...just to get revenge on Ciccio?


Good point.

But I'd bring up the business/personal distinction. I think Vito would say that the revenge on Don Ciccio was personal. But he'd agree with Tom that the Sollozzo incident was business, and pure vengeance has no place in the realm of business.
Posted By: olivant

Re: "It was Michael who killed Sollozzo" - Sigh - 05/06/11 07:08 PM

Tommasino had a choice to accompany or otherwise support Vito or not. In his capacity as acting Don, Sonny was supposed to act in the interests of his criminal family, not himself.
Posted By: The Hollywood Finochio

Re: "It was Michael who killed Sollozzo" - Sigh - 05/06/11 09:29 PM

Tommasino was absolutely needed for the meeting with Ciccio, how else could an appointment with Ciccio be secured without the facade of Don Tommasino wanting his blessing for Genco?

As for the personal/business distinction, I defy anyone on earth not to take two assasination attempts on their father personally.
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