Moe's Big Mouth

Moe Greene really said a mouthful to Michael Corleone at that Vegas meeting:
1. admitted to slapping his brother around,
2. saying he could talk to Barzini and still keep the hotel
3. insulting Michael as a baby

So, was Moe Greene considered a dead man regardless? OR...had he NOT shot off his mouth, and tried to politic a deal, do you think he could have survived?

Slapping around a Corleone IN PUBLIC was the beginning of the end for Moe.

In the book, Mike has Neri at the meeting and it's implied that Neri is studying Moe's face so that he'll remember it for a later date.


Muscling Moe out of his own hotel was just a pre text. Everyone knew he would refuse.

It was indeed Moe's big mouth that made him a dead man. But he was probably killed as a precaution anyway as everyone knew that Moe's ego would not accept the humiliation of getting moved out by the Corleones. And he ofcourse already aligned himself with Barzini.

Michael's objective was to call in Moe's debt to the Corleones (they gave him a "big chunk of money" to finish his hotel), and to plant a major stake in Nevada. Had Moe accepted Michael's offer with no protest, I think Michael would have let him survive in the interest of avoiding violence that might have impinged on his upcoming campaign to look "respectable." But it was Moe's refusal that gave Michael no choice but to kill him. If Moe had caved with no protest, Michael would appear to the others in Vegas as a man to be feared. Since Moe didn't cave, Michael had to kill him--and then the others would fear him.

"I got Moe Greene mugged and numbered up here."

Exactly. Vito told Michael that he would be invited to a meeting and then killed. Because Moe told Michael "I tocked to Barzini. I can make the deal with him, and still keep my hotel!", Michael had reason to consider Moe part of the plot to kill him and to view him as a mortal threat. Remember that Moe, like his real life counterpart Bugsy Siegel, was himself a gangster--to Michael he said: "I made my bones when you were going out with cheerleaders."

This is why Hyman Roth's speech in Part II, where he discusses Moe's death and displays obvious anger toward Michael for having caused it, rings rather hollow to me. If Moe's and Michael's positions had been reversed, Moe would have had Michael killed--and so would Roth in the same situation. Michael may not have been justified in killing Moe in the eyes of the law, but he certainly was by the accepted standards of the world these people lived in. Moe was certainly not some innocent victim.

Haven't read the novel in a while but if Moe got hit in Vegas, wouldn't that have violated the no violence rule regarding Las Vegas.

Was he hit in Los Angeles or Vegas?

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I believe the novel states it is Vegas, but I'm not really sure.

Interesting that Moe gave away Barzini as the power in New York when Barzini was trying to trick the Corleones into thinking it was Tatt.

Michael took a calculated risk that Moe Greene would not tke vengence.

Didn't Michael seize control over Moe's casino/hotel? I thought that was why he had him murdered, although I'm not sure how Moe's death opened up the opportunity. Also consider that Moe had a frontman, that probably factors into the equation.

And what reason does Moe have to be part of the plot?

He was hit in Hollywood.

With Moe dead, his ownership would pass to who ever was strong enough totake it, front man or not.

Because of Michael's interest in the casino--remember Moe said the if he dealt with Barzini he wouldn't have to give up the hotel.

I think Barzini only tricked the Corleones before the meeting of the families. After the meeting, it was clear to everyone that Barzini was the new top dog and I don't think he would still pretend otherwise. Tessio even mentioned that Barzini's men were taking over his turf which meant that Barzini wasn't secretly moving against them anymore.

By then, it were the Corleones themselves who were pretending to be weak. Michael denied Tessio and Clemenza to recruit more men so that Barzini and Tattaglia would think Michael would no longer be a threat, which was exactly what Michael wanted so he could carry out his plan by eliminating them.

How would Vito have handled the Moe situation.
Michael behaves pretty arrogantly. Look how he says casually: "The Corleone family will buy you out", fumbling with his lighter. My guess: Vito would have been more polite.
On the other hand, Michael's approach might have been a deliberate provocation to see if Moe loses control and says something he wouldn't say easily in a smooth conversation. And that's what he did in the end: "I tawked to Barzini."

I wonder if Moe was blowing smoke when he said he could make a deal Why would Barzini show such generosity? Maybe he was just playing Mike to make him think Barzini, and as we later find out, Roth,were his allies.

As Mike told Tom: "You're not a wartime Consiglieri, Tom. Things may get rough with the move we're trying."

As the quote above points out, neither Vito or Mike were under any illusions. They wanted Moe's casino (which, by the way, they owned part of) one way or the other. Mike didn't mince words. He was going to get the casino one way or the other. So, his words to Moe were straightforward.

As far as Moe and Barzini go, sure Moe knew what the Corleones intentions were and he was looking for allies. Why not Barzini?

Funny how similar the Moe Greene/Ben Siegel comparisons are:

01: both jewish names
02: both killed outside of Vegas
03: both shot in the eye

They sure weren't discreet

How do we know that about Moe Greene?

If I'm not mistaken, Cici shot him. Cici turned up later that day at the Mall, searching Tessio for weapons. The novel states that Moe was killed "at the home of his Hollywood mistress," where Siegel was killed.

TB, there's nothing in the film to indicate who murdered Moe. However, in the novel it states that Neri did not reappear in NY until a month after Moe was Murdered.

Ever wonder what happened to the dude that was giving Moe his spa treatment? Wonder if he was spared or was an off-camera civilian victim?

No, Cicci killed Stracci or Cuneo in the revolving door.

I think he might have killed both Moe and Cuneo.

Why Moe?

I believed in a lot that he said but he said it to the wrong person at the wrong time.

He was screwed either which way he went.

Barzini, or being associated with him was the end for Moe.

Moe should have played his card out a little more objectivly and seen what happened before he went off the deep end.

Michael definatly saw this as an insult and that was not good for Moe. Plus he slapped Fredo around.

Moe thought he was untouchable because he invented Las Vegas. As spin off of Bugsy obviously.

You have to understand, that men like this, are kings of their domains. They dont see a threat the way you and I might. They only see potential threats as obstacles, while they reign as goads on Earth. That is the life.

And that is why is it difficult for a civilian to understand or to associate with men of this stature. They hold court like the kings of old, where a slip of a word, a wrong gesture, spells life and death.

This is true. I just do not see how he thought he was bigger than the Corleone family.

That is true. You see it in a deleted scene in II in which Neri moves Klingman out of his hotel. Klingman is indignant: "Who do you think you're talking to?" And, "You can't come in here and talk to an owner like that." Geary is another example. Like every other Nevadan at that time who had two or more generations in the state, he thought he was beyond any laws--could patronize a brothel without worrying about his reputation, squeeze the "outsiders" and seem as if he were keeping his state "clean."

Another perfect example: In "Casino," County Commissioner Pat Webb (L.Q. Jones) callls on casino manager Ace Rothstein (DeNiro) to insist that his incompetent brother in law be reinstated in a "juiced-in" casino job. When Rothstein refuses, Webb says: "You people will never understand that you're here at our invitation. And I can send you back where you came from even if I have to harelip the governor." And he managed to put Rothstein in the Black Book.

From the way the killing scenes were edited, I also believed for some time that Moe was killed by Cicci. Perhaps because of the same atmosphere in the barber shop and in Moe's massage room. And when Cicci throws away his cigarette, it looks as if he's going to kill Moe when in fact he's going to the revolving door.

Was Moe even under the Corleones or made his buttons by a different family...the reason I'm askign bcause you got have some brazen cajoles to smack/slap a Corleone in face in public unless you got somebody else backing you.....

Moe was based on the real-life Bugsy Siegel, who was an ally of Meyer Lansky and, through Lansky, Charlie Luciano. But he was an independent operator in LA and Vegas. The real-life Siegel pushed around LA's two top Italian mobsters: Tony (the Admiral) Cornero and Jack Dragna, though I don't believe he slapped them around in public. That was probably a factor (but not the biggest factor) in his own assassination.

Just a quick aside TB... I always thought that was really stupid how Rothstein handled that and wasn't at all how Vito would have done it. Webb asks for the moon (The brother-in-law reinstated to the same job) which Rothstein properly denies.

Webb chuckles and agrees that the fellow really is incompetent and reduces his request to some other job. Rothstein still refuses.

I thought he missed an opportunity to make a friend of the commissioner. He had already made his point. With the second refusal he left Webb no way out. I don't think that's how Vito would have handled it. Always leave the other guy something on the table...

And besides, Moe could have never been "made" as he wasn't an Italian.

That was indeed a stupid decision and not made by the Rothstein we know from the rest of the film.

Agreed--definitely a stupid decision. I think it pointed up a basic flaw in Rothstein: he was trying to be a perfectionist manager in the casino business, as if there were some unrelenting rulebook to be followed. Meanwhile, he was breaking the rules by pretenting to be legitimate, even though he was fronting for Mob interests. By definition, the casino business is one where, "to get along, go along." Webb cited him for his dubious pals; Rothstein should have given in on Webb's dubious brother in law. Jerk.

But, as the film is based on real life events/persons, I wonder if this siuation also happened in real life?