Michael and Pentangeli's conversation

I could never really understand why Michael asked Frank to meet with the Rosatos.

Would you guys on this board equate that with Don Vito asking Luca Brasi to find out what Sollozzo had under his fingernails?
Seems both (Mike and Vito) sent loyal men right into the Lion's mouth.

Thoughts?

Each Don did require acts of extraordinary bravery/stupidity from their henchmen but the henchmen knew the price of the ticket when they got on the ride, so to speak.

I wouldn't say it was exactly the same though. Vito would not have minded if Luca had been able to murder both Sollozzo and Bruno Tattaglia. Vito also would have been very happy if on the other hand Luca had been able to discover that Barzini was really behind the deal and report back, unharmed.

With Frank, Michael had explicitly told him that he was not to harm the Rosatos. In both situations you can argue that the boss was underestimating the opposition and the subordinate paid the price.

Watch the scene where Michael meets with Pentangeli at the old Corleone house in New York (the scene where Michael says "In my home! In my bedroom where my wife sleeps...") Michael explains that he wants Pentangeli to make a deal with the Rosatos as a means of deceiving Hyman Roth. Mike realizes that it was Roth who tried to kill him, but he doesn't want Roth to know that. He explains to Pentangeli that if Roth sees that Michael persuaded him (Pentangeli) to make a deal with the Rosatos, Roth would believe he still had a good relationship with Michael. This would make it easier for Michael to find out who betrayed him (it turned out to be Fredo, of course).

I don't think this situation is equivalent to Vito sending Luca Brasi to inform on Sollozzo (an incredibly unwise thing to do, by the way). Pentangeli was only telling the Rosatos he wanted to make a deal, not that he wanted to betray the Corleone family and join the Rosatos and Hyman Roth. Luca, on the other hand, was saying he was disillusioned with the Corleones and wanted to join Sollozzo and the Tattaglias. Furthermore, this was particularly unbelievable given that Luca was known to be Vito's most fanatically loyal person.

No doubt Michael wanted to know who the traitor was, but what I don't understand is that all of these troubles were between the Corleone family. Michael, being the uber-controller, has no problems telling Frank to run his family "like a Corleone" but then he tells Frank he has to meet with his own underlings and settle a dispute?? It doesn't make sense. Hyman Roth was not in the family. And I still don't see how the Rosatos bros. were in the Corleone family, yet "backed" by Roth.
What exactly did that mean? Were there real life situations that emulated that type of mob family relationship?
I understand Mike wanted to fool Hyman. But, at the same token, I don't feel it would have postponed any type of business dealings between Michael and Hyman overall.

There have been some real life situations in which formal members of Families either had only tenuous relationship with their supposed supervisors (Albert Anastasia and his "bosses" the Mangano brothers) or more relevantly to this post, in which rebellious members of one Family get assistance, or support from another Family. If I remember correctly in his book Bonanno claimed that Gambino and Lucchese supported the Gallo Brothers (the model for the Rosatos) in their rebellion against Profaci.

It's not clear if the Rosatos were actual formal members of the Corleone Family or not. All we know is that they feel they were owed something by Clemenza/Pentangeli. IRL Profaci's people did indeed meet with the Gallos and agree to terms-which they broke as soon as was convenient.

As he explained, Michael wanted to buy time to find out who the traitor was and STILL make money with Roth. He couldn't do that if he and Pentangeli were involved in a full scale war against Roth/The Rosatos. That's why he wanted "peace" for a while. He also wanted Roth to believe that Michael would NEVER want to harm Roth or Roth's interests. Now, how he expected Roth to believe this after bum rushing Roth's friends out of Las Vegas is a little bit much to take but I would guess life in organized crime is full of such lying, double dealing and triple crosses.

Basically Michael wants Roth to believe that Michael is slightly dim and just wants to make money with one of his father's oldest "friends".

Similarly Roth wants Michael to believe that Roth doesn't care about Michael's designs on Vegas and Cuba, has forgotten all about Moe Green, and that he is a sickly old man who will die soon and leave everything to Michael.

True indeed, Lilo. Thanks for the Profaci/Gallo reference...

Well this was one of of Michael's mistakes. I mean you could say Vito made a mistake too but there was one big difference which was an attempt on Mike's life had already taken place. I know Mike wanted Roth to believe that he believed pantangeli set him up but it actually cause even more traouble for mike. If Mike had let Pantangeli take care of the Rosato's then Pantangeli would have never become a witness as the Senate hearings. Thats why I think that Mike was a good but not great don. He got a few lucky breaks and was able to take advantage

It was Michael at his most manipulative:
He scared Frankie with his shouting about "in my bedroom..." etc. Then, after reducing Frankie to rubble, he asks him "to help me take my revenge." Frankie practically passed out with relief. That's when Michael made him put his head in the lion's mouth by asking him to "settle these problems with the Rosatos."

Michael couldn't lose. If Frankie did settle with the Rosatos, it'd be one more worry off Michael's mind. If Frankie were killed, it'd be more proof that Roth was behind the Tahoe attack. Either way, Frankie was expendible.

This leads to another question. By giving the Rosato brothers the green light to kill Frankie, was Roth sending Michael a message that he knew Michael really suspected Roth, and that one way or another Roth would get him?

I think that Roth underestimated Michael and really expected/hoped that Michael would believe that the Rosatos acted on their own. Roth's way was deception and deflection. The Corleones kill Moe. Roth does nothing. The Corleones push Roth affiliates out of Vegas. Roth sends Johnny Ola to give his blessings.

When an attack does come it's something that only could have happened with the help of a traitor and something for which Roth had already provided a ready made scapegoat-Pentangeli. But it wasn't direct from Roth. Not his style.

I think Roth would have survived as long as he did because he might have been a "let's you and him fight" sort of boss.

That raises a question: why would Roth agree to let Michael move Klingman out?

I would argue it was just a sacrifice of a pawn in Roth's chess game to get Michael.

Roth was following Bruce Lee's advice:

Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

Michael was set on moving into Vegas and it wasn't in Roth's interest (ability???) to confront him directly over Klingman. Far better to scrape and smile and offer no resistance while all the time planning his assassination attempts, while aided by at least one traitor inside the Family.

When Michael met with Roth in Miami, he concluded, "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man." Heh-heh--Roth thought his ploy to make Frankie the patsy for the Tahoe shooting worked. But, instead, Michael dispatched Frankie to settle with the Rosatos. That told Roth that Michael didn't blame Frankie for the Tahoe shooting--meaning that Michael might suspect Roth. But by that time, Roth already had, or was about to have, Michael in Havana, where he'd be assassinated. By ordering the Rosatos kill Frankie, Roth figured he'd eliminate a strong Michael ally and put the Rosatos in place to run the olive oil business.



Another way to pacify Michael to buy time while Roth figured out a way to kill him. I think Michael floated the idea of moving Klingman out well before Johnny Ola's meeting with him. The spiel Ola gave Michael was FFC's way of putting us in the picture. At that point, according to Roth's plan, Michael was only hours away from meeting his maker. So, all of that good stuff--"But if you want to move Klingman out, our friend from Miami won't object" (said in front of Rocco and Neri)--was designed to help establish an alibi for Ola and Roth after Michael was whacked: Why would dear, fatherly Roth want to harm the guy whom he just blessed with Klingman's piece of his hotel? It was the same ploy Roth used in Havana--promising Michael his Cuban empire in front of witnesses, so that when he turned up dead, Roth would seemingly have had no motivation to want him killed.

So why didn't Pentageli get what was going on?
He blamed Michael at the end? Is it because Michael made him a sacrifical lamb? Its like he didn't understand what was really going on.

He didn't understand; he admitted as much. He was a street guy with no mind for big deals. The Feds were going to prosecute him for a bunch of stuff and to the best of his knowledge, Michael had tried to kill him.

Hearing "Michael Corleone says hello" right before you're garroted probably helped with the confusion on Franky's part (and the audience's) too.

oh yeah that is the coolest meaningless line in movie history

Or the most meaningful. Roth tells the Rosatos: "Strangle him, but not too much. Tell him that Michael says hello, and don't forget to hit his bodyguard with a car. We need them at the Senate hearing."

No question about it. Roth sent Ola to Tahoe to tell Michael he had permission to move Klingman out. Roth benefited by this because it kept up the facade of their friendship
and Roth thought Michael would be dead that very night in any case.

If only Michael had trusted Frankie enough to let him in just a little - things could have went a lot smoother for Michael. However, his paranoia and distrust got the better of him and many bad things happened that could have been avoided. All it would have taken was a private meeting earlier in the day between Mike & Frankie only to avoid a lot of headaches.

There was a private meeting: he went to Frankie's home

I meant the day of the communion at Tahoe. By the time Frankie got to air his concerns with Michael, by his own admission, he was drunk and tired. Not a good combination to start a conversation of that magnitude.

It didn't matter. Michael did vist him in his home on the mall and explained his Roth strategy and even asked him if he understood and Frankie said that he did and Frankie performed as Mike requested he do.

Right, gotcha. Thanks, Oli.

The best part of that whole plot is summed up on Tom's face when he sighs and says to Michael "Now what is it that you want me to do..."

Priceless acting by Duvall.

astute observation indeed

Sure thing Michael could have bought time, say, after Havana instead of rushing into sending Pentangeli over to Rosato brothers to settle these troubles with them thus showing his hand, revealing to Roth, Michael didn't suspect Pentangeli was behind the Tahoe shooting

Michael's overarching goal was to find out who was the traitor in his family. Since he knew Roth was behind the Tahoe shooting, he needed to do just what he told Pentangeli: "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer." That's the main (but not the only) reason he went to Havana, with just a single (probably unarmed) bodyguard. Sending Frankie to meet with the Rosato brothers was something he had to do to satisfy himself of Frankie's loyalty-- like asking Carlo to admit he set up Sonny and to make him confirm that Barzini was behind it--even though he already knew the answers.

He didn't fool Roth when he didn't do just what he told him and kill Frankie thus showing his hand, revealing to Roth, Michael didn't suspect Pentangeli was behind the Tahoe shooting

And I always thought it was Fredo's wife that was the mastermind behind the Tahoe shooting...

Ahh -- wrong number --!

Whilst I acknowledge Michael and Roth were playing their cat and mouse games, among others -

• neither Michael nor Roth thought the other will get out of Havana alive
• Roth gave his blessings to Michael pushing Klingman out because “Oh, Michael? Won't see him no more” [Tahoe shooting]

I believe, Michael showed his hand [without cause!] earlier on - Red flag that would have alerted Roth [if Roth was fooled prior] when Michael didn't have Pentangeli killed as he stated to Roth in Miami “Then Pentangeli is a dead man, you don't object”

Besides “sending Frankie to meet with the Rosato brothers” didn't advance his quest any further in finding out the traitor in the family
It ended up giving more ammunition to Roth eg: Senate hearing whereas if Michael had waited until his return from Havana – there was enough time! - then Michael's New York operation remains untouched and no Senate hearing either

Surely Roth is not going to tell Michael their Havana deal is off because Pentangeli is still alive?

Turnbull is a good man! My take "Frankie's loyalty" was beyond reproach

IMHO the major difference is that Michael sending Pentangeli to a sitdown with the Rosatos was actually believable. But I always found it incredibly stupid that Vito would have sent Luca to act like he was unhappy with the family, given that everyone in the underworld would have known how loyal Luca Brasi was to Don Corleone. Even with the pretext of wanting a piece of the drug money and going behind Vito's back, thinking that enemies who might be planning a hit would accept that Luca wasn't happy is stupid, since even if he WAS unhappy, what would happen the moment Sollozzo's goons killed Vito? Luca would be after them. Ridiculous.

Pentangeli could/did have the impression that he might not like the Rosatos but "the boss" was making him play nice. That's way more believable given the circumstances and probably would have worked. But I do agree that Pentangeli was expendable.

I started a thread on that subject a while back:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=444618&Searchpage=1&Main=16277&Words=%2Bsilver+%2Bplatter&Search=true#Post444618

My take, whilst on the surface! Vito sending Luca to Tattaglia is "ridiculous" and “incredibly stupid” than Michael sending Pentangeli to the Rosatos, neither is believable

Michael gave Pentangeli a pass after Pentangeli 'arranged' for his Don's bedroom - where his wife sleeps, where his children come and play with their toys, in his home! - machine gun sprayed....

I believe Pentangeli was too valuable to Michael to be expendable

Extracts
Did they have to die?

Rocco linked to Michael

No doubt Pentangeli was too valuable to Michael to be expendable also Every member is pivotal link in the chain and Michael would not sacrifice any of his men

Both erred, tipped their hand sending their trusted most valued friends and ended up losing them

Poor Pentangeli was stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place indeed

Whilst Pentangeli should have had more faith in his Don irrespective.... Michael certainly hung Pentangeli out to dry - among others

• Pentangeli, a good old man who was loyal to Vito for years [and Michael] - who had come all the way from New York was kept waiting in the lobby to get an audience with Michael
• getting little or no help / support from Michael in his troubles with the Rosato brothers
• then Michael sends Pentangeli over to the Rosatos, to lay down to them and to settle these troubles with them
• Michael didn't bother to take care of Pentangeli's family after Pentangeli was 'killed' doing an unreasonable assignment for Michael, with Pentangeli's enemies who “spit right in his face”

If Michael sent him into the lion's den, it was Pentangeli who put his head in it's mouth, leaving Cicci to wait in the car even after the C-Note insult

If only Pentangeli had Michael's brain!
Pentangeli: I trust this man with my life If I were to ask him to wait in the car, it would be an insult

Would we equate the C-Note with Ola's orange to Michael

I never understand either

• Orange

Didn't Michael know oranges foreshadow death....

• C-note

Did the Rosatos try to kill Pentangeli because Pentangeli didn't appreciate their gesture of Goodwill....

"Did the Rosatos try to kill Pentangeli because Pentangeli didn't appreciate their gesture of Goodwill?."

No. Their purpose was to kill Pentangeli:

Michael's last words to Roth in Miami were: :Frank Pentangeli is a dead man-you don't object?" Roth was the Rosatos' advocate with Michael, so he probably contacted them and said, "You heard about the shooting at Michael Corleone's place in Tahoe? Well, he knows Pentangeli was behind it. He told me that 'Frank Pentangeli is a dead man.'" He wouldn't have to "order" the Rosatos to whack Pentangeli--they'd see Roth's information as a green light to kill Pentangeli and not only to get their three territories in the Bronx, but also to take all of the Corleones' operation in NYC, too. Carpe diem. Roth also wouldn't have had to tell the Rosatos about his plan to have Michael killed in Havana--it had nothing to do with them.

Whether they sensed it or not, the Rosatos were part of Roth's grand plan: Inform them that they had the opportunity to take over Michael's "muscle" in NYC just before he had Michael killed in Havana. That way, the Corleone heirs would have no means to take revenge on him--a complete fait accompli. And, with Fredo's coglioni in his pocket, Roth would always have a hostage in whatever remained of the Corleone empire.

I think it could be Lana's Tongue-in Cheek!

We'd had some entertaining debates recently regarding Roth's hits and misses in threads
1. Pentangeli Meeting with Rosarto Brothers
2. Why the Tahoe assassins?

I reckon as soon as Roth learned that Pentangeli is a dead man, set up a meeting with the Rosato brothers -- says he's gonna go for their deal, he would have figured, Michael knew Pentangeli was not behind the shooting

As we'd discussed, Michael's killing in Havana is fraught with problems as to why he was the only one

They still had Corleone people like Neri, Rocco, their own men and means Hence there was plenty they could do, to take revenge

Roth the hunted one! He missed his chance.

Hmm... and what are to presume happened to the Rossatos after the "botched" hit on Frankie?

They were "on the run," according to Tom Hagen.

Sure thing It is a given Michael would have wiped out all his enemies they be Fabrizio, Cicci, Rosato brothers
They all would have had to answer for these troubles they caused for the Corleones

Me neither!

This maybe of interest
"A lucky C note for our new deal"

If they were always going to kill him, why the C-Note insult and Michael Corleone says Hello