Tom as consigliere

I often wonder this... how/when is Tom consigliere??? We just take for granted that this is true, but I, honestly, never really bought that he was ever anything more than an "interim" consigliere. Did Vito ever really make him consigliere??? The first time (to my recollection) that we know of Tom being consigliere is when Sollozo takes him and addresses him as such.

Tom was most definitely consigliere to both Vito & Sonny (after Vito was shot). It was a permanent appointment to the position, more fully explained in the novel. While never addressed explicitly, Tom was effectively minimized by Vito after Sonny was kid. As the novel stated, even Tom knew he was no wartime consiglieri as having been lulled to sleep by Barzini and the other Corleone enemies when Santino was killed. In the novel, Tom knows that Genco would have never been outsmarted by the enemy to let Sonny be killed.

Vito did not have the heart to formally replace Tom, so he let Michael do it. By the same token, Vito could not personally have Carlo killed, so he again let the burden to Michael.

Michael said, "After all, who's a better consigliere than my father?" But he seemingly put Tom back in the consigliere role after Vito died because he needed him. As you saw, by the beginning of II, Tom was out in the cold again--until the Tahoe shooting, when he became "the Don."

In some other thread they are talking about how Michael trusted no one. I must amend my position. Michael always trustd Tom in that he knew no matter haw horribly he treated him, he would keep coming back for more.

True. Michael was adept at discerning people's vulnerabilites and strengths and he preyed on Tom's loyalty.

ok... so what I gather from all this is that, just like the rest of the family who were never officially "made", Tom kind of assumed the position of a consigliere... not necessarily by title, but by default of the job that he did after Genco's death. Is that you guys' position?

No. As Goombah pointed out, the novel provides more detail. Here's the relevant passage (p.49 of the first edition paperback):

"It had been a busy but satisfying day [Connie's wedding day] for Tom Hagen. Genco Abbandando had died at 3 in the morning, and when Don Corleone returned from the hospital, he had informed Hagen that he was officially the new consigliere to the family."

Just to add to Turnbull's quotation, Tom never took for granted that he would obtain the position. He was "interim" while Genco was still alive (I think for approximiately 1 year), but was definitely permanent when Genco died.

All of the Corleone enemies, including Sollozzo, held little account for Hagen. In the novel, Sollozzo said something to the effect (when he snatched Hagen) "you're not even Italian, much less Sicilian." Finally, at the meeting of the Families to negotiate the peace, Puzo remarked how some of the Families referred to the Corleone's as the "Irish Gang" because of Hagen's Irish heritage.

oh ok... I got you... I guess that the showing of Hagen taking the seat of consigliere was buried in the same grave as the Genco death scene that I love so much.

Vito called Tom his consigliere right before Tom told him about Sonny being killed

Classic Michael: use, use, and use some more.

This raises another question. Vito says to Tom after his replacement as consigliere: "I advised Michael", which propably doesn't comfort Tom, does it? Advising Michael to do so is practcally the same as replacing Tom himself.

True. But he was also trying to soften the blow to Tom by implying that Michael had consulted him before removing Tom as consigliere.

And he also told Tom that he thought Sonny was a bad don, but that he never thought Tom was a bad Consigliere.

But ... we have to consider what might only be a correlation. As Tom functions as Consigliere and then is actually named as Consigliere, the Corleone family fortunes decline. Was that just a confluence of events?True, Tom advised Vito that he should accept the Sollozzo deal. But, other than that, how was Tom an asset to the Corleones?

That's an interesting question, Olivant. I'd argue that the Corleone fortunes declined because Vito was shot and incapacitated--and that was because he underestimated Solozzo. Also, apperently he didn't include Tom in his plan to use Luca to try to get close to the Tattaglias--a patently ridiculous idea that Tom might well have advised against.

On the other hand, Tom truly wasn't a wartime consigliere. I don't think it's just an empty phrase. As he said (in the novel, re. the Sonny ambush): "Old Genco would have smelled a rat." Not only that, Tom probably was overcautious. For example, he told Sonny that, as long as McCluskey was guarding Sol, "he is invulnerable." But if Michael hadn't prevailed, I'm certain Sol would have gotten another (probably successful) shot at Vito. As we've discussed before, his training as a lawyer prepared him for conciliation, whereas Genco's background as a Sicilian prepared him for cunning, and to anticipate cunning.

Maybe Tom was a jinx.

LOL, I wouldn't go that far. Tom was a good consigliere, but simply was not Sicilian, thus preventing him from being a complete consigliere. As Micheal stated, "That's no reflection on Tom." You can't be what you aren't.

There's an interesiting point in the Sonny-Tom-relationshop. While they discuss what to do after the hospital incident, Sonny bursts out: "No, no, no! Not this time, consigliere." Why does he call Tom "consigliere"? Is he trying to ridicule him or his new function or their new relationship as Don/Consigliere? Note that a few seconds before he calls him "Tomanoutch".
Tom says "Sonny" after almost every sentence.
So, what's this consigliere-reference in this scene? Why is Sonny saying it in a moment of great anger.

He's not angry at Tom; he's just made up his mind on a course of action. Of course, just a few minuts later, Sonny accepts Tom's caution to consider the disastrous results if Sonny pursues that course of action. Also, don't forget that in a previous scene in Vito's office just before they are brought the fish in Luca's vest that Sonny calls Tom Consigliere when he asks him for advice if Vito dies. When he calls Tom Consigliere in the scene you are referring to, Sonny's simply emphasizing that he intends a course of action that is a departure from Tom's proposed course of action and Tom's course of action is a function of his role as Consigliere. Remember, Tom's Consigliere role is to advance the interests of the Corleone family at the least cost to the Corleones and certainly without spilling blood.

Agreed. Nevertheless, they have a brotherlike relationship. They've called each other "Sonny" and "Tom"/"Tomanouch" for years. So it's a little strange that when Sonny's losing his temper, he calls his brother consigliere. To me it sounds a little like: "Oh Tom, don't try to play the consigliere."
Later, when Sonny is shot, Vito calls Tom "consigliere of mine", as if to remind him that this is his function. This also contrasts the very private situation.
Would Tom have ever called Sonny "Godfather"?
Would Vito have ever called Genco "consigliere of mine"?

No, Tom would probably have never called Sonny Godfather because Godfather was an appellation that Vito earned through the huge respect and admiration Vito engendered in people. Sonny did not do so. But Vito might certainly have called Genco consigliere of mine. It's not a pejorative term. It's the same as calling a child son instead of by his given name.

Tom was never the Don, he was acting Don until Vito recovered, so technically Tom always remained as Vito's consigliere, i.e. "the family's" consigliere. During the illness of Vito I think Tom and Sonny saw themselves in the same boat and more or less as equals, except when Sonny lost his temper and said
Pop had Genco look what I got." You can see them acting more like equals (in the film at least, when Michael first comes up with the idea that he will kill Sol and McCluskey. Also you can see them as equals in the scenes where Tom raise his voice to Sonny. He would never have done that to Vito.

Michael, on the other hand did become "The Godfather." He was Godfather to Michael Rizzi, and presumably others, and was truly the head of the family. In a great deleted scene Sonny's eldest daughter and her fiance come to Michael to get permission to marry. It is one of the few times when we see Michael's warm and playful side when he tells the young man that it is ok to major in fine art, but that he better take some business courses. When the young man tells him he is a trust fund baby Michael accepts this but thn tells him to take some business courses anyway.

i always liked Tom as the consig. My favorite charactor in the first movie by far.

Yes, that was absolutely one of the best of the deleted scenes. I love it when Michael tells Tom, "Make sure her dowry's big. These people think Italian brides go barefoot."

actually... I think this statement by Sonny was more like "Ok Tom... you have the position of consigliere... now you have to step up and act with the responsibility that this office holds. what should we we do?"

Basically, I agree. Tom is Consigliere and he's the goto guy for advice. But I don't think Sonny's statement is pejorative at all by telling Tom to step up to the plate. Again, Tom is the one, logically, for Sonny to turn to.

Well, in the novel, when Vito got back from the Hospital, at 3:00 am, he told Tom he was now officially Consiglere, so in the movie, right after Vito got back from the hospital in that deleted scene

Tom is made consigliere for a very definite reason. Vito knows that the other families will need his cosigliere if there is a conspiracy made to get him. He also knows that the other families will not trust anyone who is not Sicilian. In the book Tom ask Michael and I am paraphrasing here, " Do you know how they will come after you?" Mike says' "Some one close. Either Clememza or Tessio or Carlo." Tom says "What about me?"
Mike:"You're Irish" Tom: I'm half Irish. Michael: To Them that's Irish.

Barzini approaches Carlo and Sal is Sicilian. The closest people to Mike after the Don's death are Sal and Clememza. Here is another ? Why does Vito bring Sonny into the family business?? There is a definite reason and not one you may think.

[quote=hugeguy]Tom is made consigliere for a very definite reason. Vito knows that the other families will need his cosigliere if there is a conspiracy made to get him. He also knows that the other families will not trust anyone who is not Sicilian. In the book Tom ask Michael and I am paraphrasing here, " Do you know how they will come after you?" Mike says' "Some one close. Either Clememza or Tessio or Carlo." Tom says "What about me?"
Mike:"You're Irish" Tom: I'm half Irish. Michael: To Them that's Irish.

Barzini approaches Carlo and Sal is Sicilian. The closest people to Mike after the Don's death are Sal and Clememza. Here is another ? Why does Vito bring Sonny into the family business?? There is a definite reason and not one you may think./quote]

Then enlighten us.

That's the second time you've referred to some nonobvious reason about Sonny, Hugeguy. As a courtesy to us, how about your answer?

perfect consigliere

come on DonTommasio- Don't you know the answer? Take a good guess at it. Vito has Sonny join the family business for a very good reason. He doesn't want Sonny. He would rather have him pursue some other line of work. Why does Vito bring Sonny into the business?

Well, I guess hugeguy wants us to beg for the answer. To head off this begathon, I'll provide it:

SPOILER SPOILER

In the novel, Vito wants the young Sonny to be a lawyer. But the teenaged Sonny participates in a small-time stickup. Though he's not caught by the cops, Clemenza finds out about it. As Sonny's godfather, Clemenza has an obligation to report it to Vito. As I recall from the novel:

Vito rips Sonny a new orifice. But Sonny pipes up, bravely: "I saw you kill Fanucci." That statement stops Vito dead in his tracks. Vito struggles: "Don't you want to be a lawyer? A lawyer with his briefcase can steal more than a thousand men with guns." But Sonny replies: "I want to learn the olive oil business." Vito then utters his all-time famous line: "A man has but one destiny," and he puts Sonny under Clemenza's tutelege."

Now, can we move on?

But what does it mean??? Turnbull? Let's not be rude

Hello hugeguy,
Turnbull isn't rude. He's one of the most polite people in this forum.
I guess what he wanted to tell you as subtly as possible was that you're welcome on this board.
Perhaps you could check out what these forums and threads are all about. Some threads are meant for discussions (like this one), others are meant for fun, guessing games, etc., like the Dialogue Game thread.
Don't worry, keep on posting, join the discussions. Perhaps spend a thought where to post your what.

Oh, and maybe the Godfather Novel forum could be interesting for you:
http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=3&page=1

Thanks, Danito.
And yes, hugeguy, you're welcome here. As Danito said, there are specific threads or forums for quizzes, guessing games, etc. If you're a big fan of the novel, you should check out the link Danito provided.

Sonny is brought into the business so Vito can watch him. HE IS THE ONLY PERSON whose testimony can convict Vito for murder. Vito brings Sonny into the business to protect Vito

Hmm. Do you really think Santino would have testified against his father?

Never.

How the hell do you figure that???

So I guess the murder contracts that Vito gave to Clemenza, Tessio and Luca over the years were inadmissible?