"That fat clemenza"

Sol to Tom: "You gotta talk to the caporegimes, that Tessio and that fat Clemenza."
Isn't that a little disrespectful at amoment when he wants to appear reasonable?
(In the book he doesn't mention the caporegimes.)

I've always thought that line was added to help the audience recognize whom Sollozzo was talking about (Clemenza).

Sol doesn't respect the Corleones at all. He thinks he can muscle his way into the family by killing Vito. He derides Clemenza as "fat," and then when he is suposed to be making nice with Michael one of the first things he does is insult his brother Santino saying "I hope you're not a hothead like your brother....you can't talk business with him." Then at dinner he insults Vito by saying he is old fashioned and not in tune with the times. He is even unrepentent about the assassination attempt....saying "I missed my chance."

DonT... while I agree with you, I think he's more trying to show Tom that the corleones are in less control and he's in more control than what Tom's biased opinion may render, and he sees them (the caporegimes) as "small fries" in the grand scheme of things. Afterall... Sol was kinda right in some regard... he is being backed by the second (if not the first, to be frank) most powerfull family in NY, and he's already hit the head of the Corleone family. so he MUST be "smelling himself" and knowing that he is now in a very powerful position.

I think he was trying to create common ground with Tom at that point. I consider "fat Clemenza" in the same vein as Sol telling Tom, "the Don...was slippin'." He was trying to create an impression with Tom that the Corleones (but not Tom) were weak and old fashioned, and that the future belonged to him--and to Tom, who he would consider a partner in the drugs business.

yeah... that's it TB! you're exactly right. he just wanted to relate to Tom (whether it was sincere or not) to get what he wanted.

I aways thought that "Fat" Clemenza was his nickname, I always read that Fat was his nickname

I don't think he wanted Tom as a partner any more than he wanted Sonny. What he wanted was to muscle his way into the Corleone family, break it up and pick up the pieces.
If he was trying to con Tom at that meeting I think he failed. As bad a wartime consigliere as Tom may have been, he wasn't THAT stupid.

well... DT, did he really fail? He really didn't have any "convincing" to do on Tom, being that they were already in agreement about the issue in the first place.

I agree, Frank. Plus, he actually did what Sol asked him to do. Sol wanted him to convince all to make the deal. He said, "I'll try." He meant it. After he found out Vito had survived, he told Sonny, "If your father dies, you make the deal."

exactly TB... Tom had the mind that "this is business, not personal".

Yes, it was disrespectful as Sollozzo intended it. They're all scum anyway. But at that point Sollozzo thinks that Vito is dead and it's just a matter of making the necessary drug business arrangments. So, he makes disparaging references to small potatos.

I just thought "Fat Clemenza" was a nickname.

On the FBI's Family Organization Chart, Peter Clemenza's nickname is Fat Clemenza. Sollozzo's use of the nickname could have just been a way to show Tom that he was familiar with the street names and habits of the Corleone family. In a small way a show of strength - knowledge is power.

Interesting that Sollozzo knew Fredo was a non-starter, and assumed Michael was a "civilian," because when he refers to them he mentions them merely as the other kids. I assume Connie did not count because women were not directly involved in mob operations back in the day.

hey... that's a really good observation and assessment. I think this is the answer! I never recognized that his name is "Fat Clemenza" on the chart (despite it being my screensaver for so long lol) although that could, very well, be a back-filled reference to relate to the audience who's familiar with the infamous speech by Sollozo... hmmm???

Remember, Sollozzo says "that fat Clemenza." So, he's use fat as a derogatory adjective.

yeah oliv... I remember that, and I agree... I think it's just a way to flex muscle and show power by belittling (sp?) Clemenza

No question about that.
As for FFC listing "Fat Clemenza" in the family chart shown at the Senate hearing:

If you can look closely at the chart (SC has posted it here many times, and it appears on p. 215 of Lebo's book), you'll see that FFC was having some fun with the names and identities he listed. For example, his father's photo appears over the name "Carmine Coranda, alias The Plunge." A young guy, looking suspiciously like FFC in a high school photo, is listed as "Francis Forducci, alias The Kid." The same photo, flopped and blurry, appears over the name, "Gaetano Sirillo." And "Salvatore Plumari's" alias is "Sally Pee."

Of course, "Fat Clemenza's" photo doesn't appear on the chart because Paramount and Richard Castellano couldn't come to terms. So, perhaps, FFC was taking a shot at the recalcitrant Castellano by listing him as "Fat Clemenza."

TB, maybe you can confirm my thought.......Although I pointed out the "Fat Clemenza" nickname on the org chart, I always thought that it was a derogatory nickname, and the Mafia didn't do that. Nicknames were given for prominent features, such as, Vincent "Chin" Gigante, and various skills, abilities, or derivations.

I always read these scenes as Tom not giving a rat's behind about Sollozzo so much as being scared sleepless about a unified Five Families knocking at the door.

MC, I think that's true. But the issue is: who's giving the names listed in a law enforcement family chart--the Mob or the cops or the media? For example, if you looked at a Columbo Family chart of, say, 25 years ago, you might see Carmine Persico listed as either "Junior" (his nickname in the family) or "the Snake" (how the media and the cops referred to him). Joe Profaci's name on charts was "The Old Man," hardly a sobriquet he'd apply to himself, or tolerate within the family.

Have you seen Clemenza? I would most certainly say his size his him most prominent feature

Well, reagrdless of any charts, I think that Sollozzo used the word in a derogatory way. He could have just as easily said "that idiot Clemenza" or "that skinny-assed Tessio" or "that psycho Sonny." The writers put that line in there to represent Sollozzo contempt for who he considered an enemy. Obviously, Clemenza's girth jumps right out at you if you are looking for a derogation term.

Clemenza is the one who limps, right? Clemenza's girth is certainly prominent, but calling him FAT could be derogatory. Unless you have examples of derogatory nicknames,like Tony "Zit Face" Goombah, or Willie "Shit-For-Brains" Pasta, I can't think of any off hand. Now if it was Big Pete Clemenza, that is nicer way of saying FAT.

"Crazy" Joey Gallo wasn't exactly a complimentary nickname.

Clemenza is the one who limps, right? Clemenza's girth is certainly prominent, but calling him FAT could be derogatory. Unless you have examples of derogatory nicknames,like Tony "Zit Face" Goombah, or Willie "Shit-For-Brains" Pasta, I can't think of any off hand. Now if it was Big Pete Clemenza, that is nicer way of saying FAT. [/quote]

Clemenza did not limp. Rocco limped.

Good one!

BTW, Olivant....didn't you notice the wink? I know Rocco limped. I was making a kidding point about an earlier post.

Mai, no.