What was Clemenza's role in II supposed to be?

Was it to be similar to what Pentangeli ended up being. Can somebody shed some light on this. Thanks!

He was to leave the crime Family and open up a national chain of spaghetti restaurants. Except Ohio, where the product was to be sold in cans.

Seriously, though, he was supposed to have flipped just line Frankie 5 Angels. For that reason, I'm glad Castellano didn't appear in Part II (and they needed to make up the character of Pentangeli).

One of the things we witness in GFI is the loyalty that Vito inspired. That loyalty starts to come undone after his death because Michael doesn't inspire the same degree of loyalty. Early in GFII Michael admits that the loyalty of family members is based on business. That Clemenza would have flipped would have been evidence of how much loyalty within the Corleone family had disintegrated under Michael.

We never know what Castellano would have made out of the Castellano character. On of the ideas was that he played both, the young and the aged Clemenza. This would have opened a lot of space to an actor as Castellano.
Pentangeli was dramatic. Clemenza would have been tragic.

Was there evidence of this in GFII? I never thought that. I always figured Clemenza died (heart attack?) and that Pentangeli moved into his position in New York. I must of missed something because I haven't watched GFII as much as GFI.

You are right about what happening to Clemenza and Pentangeli on-screen in GFII. There's no reference to Clemenza as a traitor, and Frankie was his successor.

However, the posters above are referring to FFC's original plan for Clemenza in GFII. Richard Castellano (the actor who portrayed Clemenza) and FFC could not come to terms for him to appear in the sequel. So Clemenza was killed off and the character of Pentangeli created to replace him.

What SC is saying is that the plot line originally mapped out for Clemenza was substantially the same as that eventually developed for Pentangeli.

That makes sense because Michael was building his own cadre of followers. Afterall, "[Frankie], you were loyal to my father for years" is what Michael tells Pentangeli.

Oh OK, now I understand. That is great information on what might have been. I'm glad though it didn't work out that way. I would have been disappointed if Clemenza would have turned. Since Pentagali was a new charactor, I was not let down by him "flipping". I did like though that he did the right thing in the end.

Why so much disappointment if Clemenza turned? Tessio turned.

Was Clemenza more loved or feared?

I wouldn't say Tessio "flipped". He tried to pursue other interests with and for another family. "Flipped" to me means becoming a government informant.
I did like Clemenza more than Tessio though. Clemenza reminds me of my dad. Big, funny, good natured....but, would kill you in a heartbeat

As much as we all would have disliked to see Clemenza "flip," I nevertheless see it as an important part of the trilogy. FFC wants to show us that Michael is a different person from his father and show how power affects different people. No disrespect to Don Vito, but even he told Michael "I never wanted this for you." People like Clemenza, Tessio and Pentangeli represented the "old guard," people who were principals in the early history of the Corleone Family and people that Vito trusted. While people like Neri and Lampone were the "new guard," people that Michael trusted.

Clearly one of the main themes of II is Michael losing his soul, losing his family etc. Trying to show any remainder of Vito's wisdom had largely worn off and this would represent this further.

Very true.

I would have hated to see Clemenza turn against the Family. He was a lovable character and the romaticized view that Part I gave of gangsters was embodied in the character of Clemenza. He was loyal, he brought Mike gifts when Mike was growing up, etc. To see him "flip" would have only emphasized the (real) dark side of these characters as portrayed in Part II.

The "honor amongst thieves" view in Part I was replaced by the more realistic portrayal of them being "businessmen" (in Part II) and fuck anybody who got in their way. I hate to think of likable Clemenza that way.

True.

But either way... it was going against the family and killing Mike or atleast incarcerating him.

That's what I mean. The tragedy would have been greater.
As for Pentangeli, well, Michael seems to have any emotional relationship to him. So if it was Clemenza who cut himself in the end, we would have cried.

I just can't see FFC writing Clemenza's role as a betrayal.

Perhaps, the fact that Clemenza's betrayal was so unexpectable, it would have been such a tragedy.

To write Clemenza up that way would have almost completely severed Michael's from Vito's organization. The only one left then would have been Tom whose role in his organization Michael would have continued to reduce. But I think it wold have been quite unsettling to we Trilogy fans in a way that many of we Sopranos fans were unsettled by the last episode of that series. To me it would have been distasteful.

It was the smart move. Tessio was always smarter.

I'm not so sure. FFC knew so many tricks.
Let's say, Brando had decided to play young Vito. And now we'd be here discussing what would have happened if De Niro had played the role. I guess, that most of us would consider just the idea of it distasteful.
Or if FFC had decided that Fredo would not be killed.

The same here: We don't know how FFC would have written the story with Clemenza. One thing is sure: He knew how to surprise us.
I believe, the party scene ould have been different. Clemenza would not be as drunk as Pentangeli. He would try to talk reasonably to Michael. Perhaps there would have been some parallels between young and old Clemenza. Well, we never know :-(

That discussion at Vito's funeral shows that the possibility of Clemenza turning HAD already crossed Michael's mind.

As well as the scene in the Corleone family den where Clemenza indirectly rebels against Michael's decisions, and Vito has to calm them down, get them back in line.

The seeds of Clemenza betraying the Corleone Family were planted in GF I.