Random Godfather Whoring

This thread was long overdue
More like a thread for unshaven armpits and such rather than serious discussions on "Roth's $2 million" or "Why was Tom left out"

This is a good idea. Share thoughts and questions here that don't necessarily warrant their own thread. It can also be a good place to offer up ideas to the mods for possible future threads.

What I'd like to know is who are those men getting off the boat at Anthony's communion party? There's at least four of them, possibly five or six. Could these be the assassins and the assassins of the assassins...??

Good question. We know that they were "Johnny's men" because Michael told Rocco to get them something to eat. But they weren't likely the killers because Rocco and the others would have recognized them

...Unless Rocco was also a traitor. Et tu Rocco?

Does anyone else think that Michael was moving Heaven and Earth to apprehend Vincenzo Pentangeli??


After Tom says that Vincenzo didn't even want to go dinner, that he just wanted to go straight home, Frankie says of his brother: "There's nothing that could get him out of that two-mule town." So how the heck did Michael even find him in that two-mule town, and how in the world did they get this man on a plane to the States in time for Michael's trial?

Frankie also says that his brother "could have been big here. He could have had his own family." So are we to assume that Vincenzo is somehow connected with the mob-world over in Sicily?

At the "sit-down" between Michael and Fredo in Havana, after Michael reveals his uncovering of Roth's plot to Fredo, Fredo asks, Why didn't we spend time like this before?

I think that comment is a total ruse and ploy on Fredo's part, and by no means is it genuine remorse that the two haven't spent time together. He's afraid that Michael might already suspect his treachery, and is trying to save his own butt. What an asshole.

Agreed?

Some people here (including me) think Fredo had a far more active role in Michael's betrayal than simply giving Ola information or opening the drapes. So, your idea of a ruse would fit right in But Fredo was such an airhead and general dunce that it's possible he was simply expressing an emotion he felt at that moment.

And for years I have disputed you and several other on that theory. That was until you made the point about Fredo's ability to escape from Cuba without the help of Michael, and also how and probably why the military went to Roth's hospital room. Now I do believe that Fredo WAS indeed more involved with Roth and his plot to take Michael out of the picture.

I'm confused as to why some ppl are still in doubt as to the extent of Fredo's guilt -- Fredo was in with Roth the WHOLE way.

FFC gives us definitive evidence of this in the penultimate boathouse scene when Fredo divulges his knowledge about Pentangeli being in Gov't custody and Questadt belonging to Roth. B/c of course, the only way Fredo could have this info is if he was in the closest of contact with Roth for the duration of the film. Shortly after the botched Tahoe attempt, Fredo tells Ola via phone NOT to call him anymore, but we know that's not the way things shaped out. B/c Roth, of course, wouldn't have formed his Pentangeli/Questadt plan until quite some time after the botched Tahoe attempt (he expected to easily kill Mike in Havana anyway) so thus we can infer that Fredo was in contact with Roth/Ola the WHOLE way, baby.

Thus it makes good sense to assume that Fredo was still trying to help Roth remove his brother at the New Years Eve party in Havana. And now knowing the depth of Fredo's involvement, we can infer that Fredo was in fact on his way to tip the police off when he went to get his "real drink".

So, of course Roth helped Fredo escape. As Turbull has noted before, Fredo must have called Tom after Havana. The only way Tom could have knowledge of the bodyguard's death AND Roth's heart attack/escape by boat (a boat that Fredo is also on) would be if Fredo knew. And if Fredo knows, then we can naturally infer he is still cahoots with Roth and thus Roth got him out of Havana.

Michael knows it far before.When he realizes that Ola and Freddo know each other...
Tom's knowledge of the story is seen really suspiciously in this forum.I think that being the Don (Michael defined him as his replacement)allowed him to know stuff

I should have been more clear in my post. I'm not trying to prove the fact that he's guilty, but the extent of his guilt.

Fredo's knowledge about Pentangeli and Questadt implies he was in contact with Roth throughout much of the film. And if this is the case, then it can only mean that Fredo was determined to remove his brother from power each and every step of the way, NOT just the botched Tahoe attempt.

Well, nothing like a little Fredo-Roth conspiracy talk to start the week..

I think I can visualise perfectly Roth's whole courting process of Fredo. Roth had the ability to present himself as such a nice, caring, sweet old man, and poor little Fredo probably thought he was the real Santa Claus or somethin'. I suspect that Roth probably gave Fredo the same song-and-dance that he gave Michael:

ROTH: I consider you my son, my successor. You know how much I loved your fadher, what we will do together will make history -- HISTORY, Fredo. It's (fratricide) never been done before in the mob world. You're smaht, Fredo, not like..dumb. And you want respect.

And then, after Roth's attempt on Mike's life in Tahoe fails..

ROTH: Ok, Freddie. The hit failed so I'll have to move to Plan B. I'm luring your brother to Havana where he'll be easily gunned down by Batista's Presidential Guard. But I need you in Havana to keep me updated on your brother's actions b/c he likely suspects me now and MIGHT be planning to take me out. So, I'm requesting that Micheal bring 2 million as a gift to the Cuban gov't. And that's where you come in, Fredo. You insist that you wanna help, and that you'd like to be the one to transfer the money down there. I could care less about the 2 million, but it's a good way to get you involved. I need you following Mike the whole way, informing me of his every move. Your brother Mike will never see the New Year..

FREDO: And there's still somethin' in it fuh me, right?

ROTH: Uhm, well, a smaller piece, but ya. We'll discuss that after we get back from Havana.

Roth's plan called for Mike to be murdered by the Batista Presidential Guard while driving home AFTER the New Year's Eve party.

So Carlo beats the crap out of Connie and shows how clever he is by pretending to leave the apartment, but is really hiding behind a curtain. This is how he knows that she caled Sonny. Once she hangs up she probably says to herself, "while I am staying here waiting for Sonny to come, I guess I'll clean up this mess. Then Carlo slinks out, calls Barzini to tip him Sonny is on the way and Barzini then has about 10 minutes to tip off the guards at the toll booth and get al his hitters in lace to shoot Sonny. Not plausibe timing,but the real question is did Carlo go off to meet the woman who called COnnie to cancel the date, and when he found out he had been stood up what did he do to HER?

Not to mention that when Kay asks Michael where he is now Michael says on a plane back to Sicily. Pretty slick travel arrangements, especially in light of Tom Hagen's comment that
the guy came from the two mule town at his own expense. I bet he may have come on his own expense, nut I bet the Corleones reimbursed him and took care of the return flight. Hioe they were nice enough to send him First Class.

Also if you could never get him out of that two mule town, how is it that he had a passport?

Documents can be made if you have the cash and connections.

And it helps when you have the right judges and politicians in your pocket.

Like so many nickels and dimes.

Remember that Michael still had connections in Sicily, and Corleone, to which Michael was able to walk when he lived there, is very close to Partinico. I'm sure that finding Vincenzo was not hard at all for the Corleones.

Yes, I agree, b/c of the time issue. I don't see how it's possible for Vincenzo to have arrived in America so quickly. At the end of Michael's questioning, the Senator leading the proceeding says that the court will meet again at 10a.m Monday morning, at which time they will call a witness (Frankie) to refute Mike's testimony. So, we can infer that Michael's questioning was on Friday, right?? Thus, they would barely two days (if even that much) to put the plan into action.

So let's think about the sequence of events here: Michael and Tom go home Friday after the proceedings and have to piece together who the hell the surprise witness is. Tom makes some calls and figures out it's Pentangeli; Michael then asks to see Fredo. We see Michael and Fredo meet (during daylight hrs, perhaps Saturday morning??) and Michael then knows for certain that Questadt belongs to Roth, and that Frankie is the surprise witness. Thus, by this time, Michael has AT MOST about two days to get Vincenzo to America, but more than likely he only has about a day and a half. And I don't see it happening in such a short amount of time.

Frankly, I also think it's a stretch to assume that Michael would be able to come up with the idea so quickly -- he would have had to have come up with the Vincenzo plan within a cpl of hrs after learning about Frankie.

Anyone agree with my logic here?

In the boathouse scene where Michael tells Tom he's going away, and he's gonna be the Don, Tom questions if Rocco or Al could be the mole. Michael explains are their people are businessmen, and they're loyalty is based on that. What a short memory Tom has. He should have remembered that with the Tessio situation. "It's the smart move. Tessio was always smarter". Tessio even tells Tom before his final ride, "Tell Michael is it was only business. I always liked him".

I don't know if I completely agree with the fact that Fredo was in on killing Michael the WHOLE WAY. Although I find myself leaning that way, I think about the incident when Ola calls Fredo at his house late at night when Fredo's wife asks "who was that hunny?..."wrong number." In that phone conversation Fredo says "you guys lied to me." What did they lie about? Did they lie about the fact that they would guarantee Michael's death at Lake Tahoe? The fact that Ola and Roth 'lied' to Fredo reveals that Fredo no longer trusts Ola and Roth and no longer wants any part in killing Mike because he believes that they CAN'T KILL MIKE. Also, doesn't the fact that Fredo says "I don't want you guys calling me anymore" imply that he doesn't want to kill Michael anymore. I think this is one way that people could argue that Fredo WASN'T GOING ALL THE WAY in killing Michael.

I don't think Fredo EVER thought the idea "in it for him" was about killing Mike -- in HIS head at least. By no means have I figured it all out, but Fredo was a sorry gullible SOB after all......

Fredo might have said "I don't want you guys calling me anymore" but they DID call him again, and he certainly listened. How else could he have know about Pentangeli and Questadt.

Don Tomasso gave a good summation of what happened next:

After Michael and Tom figure out that Pentangeli is alive and that Michael has been set up in a perjury trap, Michael asks Tom what Fredo knows, and Tom says Fredo says he doesn't know anything. Michael calmly tells Tom he wants to meet privately with Fredo when the great "I'm smaht" scene takes place. During the scene Michael asks Fredo whether there is anything he knows that can be of help, and Fredo says he knows Pentangeli is alive, and then he adds that Questadt belongs to Roth. Seems to me that had Fredo told this to Tom and Michael before the hearings they would have devised some different approach to things, perhaps even outing or taking out Questadt. It also shows that Fredo's treachery against Michael was ongoing because he did not come clean when Michael gave him what apparently was another chance.

Ditto. After Roth helped him escape, Fredo called Tom from New York and told him about the bodyguard's death and Roth's escape from Cuba by private boat (we know this b/c it's the only way that Tom could have been aware of this information), and if Fredo has knowledge of all of this, then we can safely assume that he was still in contact with Roth during the Cuba sequence.

Fredo is GUILTY.

Before this thread becomes too serious, I'd like to focus on another issue: How many barechested/topless people do you spot in GF1?
As far as I can see, it's only Clemenza and Appollonia, which I consider a nice coincidence.

Did Clemenza shave HIS armpits?

Not that we know of. But rumor has it that he did shave his cannoli.

Clemenza had a ddd cup size

Whose idea was Michael's ascot in Part II?

What the f***?

Gift from Fredo (who was gay after all)

Easy, Mr. Winegardner.

Nothing wrong with an ascot... it was quite nice.

The same dresser who hd Michael wear the ascot had him wearing that scarf around his neck in Sicily.

Speaking of which: The cover art on the VHS box for GFII (and the movie poster) has Michael dressed in a tuxedo. I don't believe he appeared anywhere in the Trilogy in a tuxedo.

Speaking of which: The photo of Don Corleone & his boys which appears on some posters doesn't appear anywhere in the film.

What's wrong with an Ascot?

I wonder what happened to the two or three guys who "forced" Mama Corleone to sing at the wedding and actually laid hands on her?

You mean Stumpy Giacalone and Three-Fingers Marino?

"You make my mother sing again, I'll kill ya!"

When momma told Carlo to be still so they could take the picture he wanted to bitch slap her.

Who were the smokers in GF1?
Cigarettes: Michael, Kay, Barzini, Clemenza, Sonny, Enzo, Luca, Bruno Tattaglia, Cicci
Cigars: Sonny, all the Dons except Barzini and Philipp Tattaglia, perhaps Vito (who has a cigar box) and Tom (we see him smoking a cigar by the end of GF2).
What about Tessio and Carlo?

I don't know if they smoked, but in the end they got smoked.

Another List: Names of characters we never hear in GF1
Al Neri
Mama's name (well, at least we know her family name)
Lucy Mancini
Cicci (perhaps, not so important in GF1)

Other names?

Doing the Haiku thread I learned there are a lot of 2 syllable names in the movie.

Carlo, Sonny, Vito, Michael, Fredo, Genco, Bruno (Tataligila), Luca, Hyman, Johnny, Willie, Frankie, Paulie, and so on

Bonasera's wife's and daughters names.
Name of the young girl to whom Woltz gave the pony, among other things.

Speaking of names, where in GFIII do we learn that Kay's husband is named Douglas?

Well, I was thinking about names that we know (like Neri) but we never hear.

Connie's oldest son Victor. The son who is baptized is Michael Rizzzi, so Victor had to be there someplace.

Apologies if this has been asked before, But how did the "Kiss" Michael gives to Fredo end up being so popular known as"the kiss of death" when there's no reference to that at all in the movie or the book?

Because that actually existed. In prison Vito Genovese walked up to Valachi grabbed him in a bear hug, and kissed him on both cheeks. and Valachi (being sicilian) knew that was what was called "The Kiss of Death"

I found this movie at a flea market the other day for a buck.

what movie... The Godfather?

No not the GF movie, It's called the Godfather Family A look inside.

cool, burn me a copy

I still feel ripped off that FFC didn't have Johnny and the mandolin player singing that harsh, gritty, obscene Italian rap song from the novel.

"No, I'll wait".

This line has never made any sense to me. Sollozzo tells Sonny not to lose his temper, so Sonny assures him that "he'll wait". Wait for what? Permission? Why would him saying this give Sollozzo assurances Sonny wouldn't do anything. It just seems out of place.

He was being sarcastic, like, "fuck you, I'll do what I want" kinda thing... That's what I think

Quote from the book:
>> He made his voice sound muted, depressed. “I’ll wait,” he said.

Does that mean Sonny wanted to appear weak? Does that make sense in the given situation?

Just found this rare publicity still. Cool, right?

Also as the novel says, Sonny realized that his temper was his greatest fault and "this was one time when anger could be fatal." His reply was had a twofold purpose: 1) to calm himself; 2) to convey to Sollozzo that he would comply.

I just realized yesterday that when Carlo is in the car with Clemenza you can see Michael, Tom and Neri through the rear window.

I just watched the scene where Michael hands over the family responsibility to Tom after the shooting incident. He explains to Tom that Neri and Rocco are businessmen and their loyalty depends upon that. Duh! As though Tom doesn't know all that

OMYGAWD that's beautiful

Friends, I know this has been asked a million times, but what is the name of the beautiful piece of music playing as Mike and Pat..uh, Kay, are dancing in II at Anthony's communion as Mike says "I'm trying darling, I'm trying."

You know, right before everything went to shite.

Fine, don't answer me. See if I care, but know this: Hyman Roth's wife absolutely and undeniably calls Micheal, "Mr. Paul."

It happened. She's just craaazy like that.

For those of you with iTunes, there is a free 2-minute "documentary" on people talking about which they like better: GF1 or GF2... it's called "The Godfather vs The Godfather II" so look in the Free section, do a search, or browse through Movies > Docmentaries

So what won GF or GFII?





TIS

I haven't played the whole thing yet (all its 2 minutes )

Oh I love that picture, however, isn't there another one where DeNiro isn't smiling? And, I don't remember him wearing that vest in it? Or, am I mistaken? Anyway, I love it. Pretty unique since they never shared any scenes together.

Someone posted another "drawing" way back that I really liked.I wish I could remember it. It was Young Vito/old Vito I believe. Hmmmm. I should have saved it. Anyway cool picture.


TIS

Ha ha...yea, wait til you have the time. LMAO



TIS

In another thread I asked about Hymen's wife referring to Mike as Mr. Paul in the hotyel scene. Did anyone else catch that it or did I mishear it?

I never caught it, but it is in JGeoff's transcript of GFII.

I have no explanation other than perhaps Mrs. Roth was in the dark about what business her husband had chosen and nobody wanted her to know he was meeting with the notorious Michael Corleone.

Incidentally, was Roth's wife with him at the airport? I don't remember her being there, but you would think she should have been.

No, he sent her to go play bingo.

When Michael comes to Roth's house, Mrs. Roth (although is it possible it's NOT his wife??) definitely calls him by a different name, although I'm not 100% sure what that name is.

Whatever she is, she makes a hell of a tuna sandwich.

I watched the first two films last weekend for the first time since January 2006. I wrote these thoughts on the first one:

I think the problem with the first Godfather is its crude source material. It's better than the novel in every way possible, but I find it overwhelmingly episodic and verbose. The acting and music are tremendous, but its rhythm is very clunky and the narrative is unrewarding.

A few moments are great: Michael's pivotal moment in the hospital when he says, "I'm with you now, Pop"; his subsequent killing of Sollozzo and McClusky is a great set-piece in itself; the baptism scene is genius; Brando drives the film whenever he's onscreen.

But its sidesteps, such as the whole thunderbolt episode in Sicily, dampen the drama. The whole Jack Woltz episode, immediately after the (lengthy) wedding sequence crawls along with no real purpose or energy.

And the whole dramatic arc of the film is supposed to rest on Michael's unexpected spiral into the Family business. But Coppola cheats: whereas the first thirty minutes of the film comprise one single wedding, the final third of the film jumps and leaps in time that the characterisation is implausible. Pacino's particularly excellent as the outcast war vet in the opening scenes, and he's convincing too as the cold Don in the final moments, but there's no in between.

We're supposed to accept his ruthlessness stems from Apollonia's death in Sicily, but there's no spiral there. All of a sudden he's emerging from a car and saying to Kay, "I've been back a year. Longer than that, I think." I was as bewildered and frustrated by this as Kay was (Keaton's fantastic, by the way).

It has a loaded air to it, from the opening slow track back from Bonasera to Clemenza kissing Michael's cheek at the end. "OMG EPIC!" might be overly facetious and reductive on my part, but it's a feeling I haven't yet shirked.

The second film's much better. I'm watching the third soon.

How did they know Michael's adversary's daughter was a virgin?

They checked Roth's hymen.

Too much time on my hands?

Spam much?

No

No

I'd like to mention something I've found puzzeling about the garroting of Carlo. Forgive a newbie if this has been discussed before: Is it my imagination, or was it right in front of the house? As Carlo kicks the windshield out we see that the car is in motion. Going where? Driving around in the compound with a murdered guy in broad daylight? Surely the authorities are going to be checking up on Michael after so many big mob guys are rubbed out at the same time.

Rich

I finaly found "I Have But One Heart" on Playlist.com. I looked under Al Martino it wasn't there. I found it under Dean Martin but it sounds like Al Martino is singing it.

Yes R, it was right on the mall for all of those wiseguy witnesses to see and possibly testify to at the Senate hearings had they been asked and a capo of all people doing the deed. FFC going for the drama I guess. I always wondered why they bothered to put his suitcase in the trunk.

The same reason why they let Paulie drive around half a day in NYC. As Clemenza put it: "Relax. Make them relax."
Anyway, I also think there were way too may witnesses. I mean, Clemenza, Tom, Rocco, Michael were already four. The risk that a soldier's testifying would be just too high.

They put the suitcase in the trunk and started moving the car so Carlo would not suspect what Clermenza was up to. It also made for a good scene. In other words, a twofer for FFC.

Check out the ultimate fan quiz in honor of the 35 anniversary of GFII

here

I had only 73% correct

I had 100%

I got two wrong

which ones?

Trivia...Goof: In GFII when Michael's limo is driving into the gates of the Tahoe Compound after he returns from Cuba, there are no license tags on the back!

Speaking of autos, what was the silver and black car that escorted Vito from the hospital?

Fish: "How to survive in a bullet proof vest."





(Alright, this was stupid, but sometimes...)

i got 90% on the quiz.

From the NY Dailynews.

Godfather Actors:Where are they now?

Great article, Lilo. Geez, Richard Castellano looked so old in The Godfather, but if he was only 55 when he died, he was actually fairly young.

Yes Lilo, thanks so much for sharing that article with us. Very interesting.

I think that Diane Keaton is like a fine wine....she seems to get better with age.

Ironically Gianni Russo is doing a show at a hotel cabaret here on Staten Island in about two weeks.

Geez, I didn't realize that Bruno Kirby passed away in 2006. What a shame.

How about this? Is this a tux?

No gang signs.
lol

olivant;

they put the suitcase in the trunk because they needed something to put carlos' body in after he got chopped up before the threw him into the river.

Wow, how handsome DeNiro looks. Geez, time flies by. It seems like yesterday he looked so young. There is one of both DeNiro and Pacio together in a publicity photo,even though they never appeared together in the film. Anyway, great picture.


TIS

Okay, Vito was shot at an age when the effect on his health could be long-lasting and quite acute. However, why'd he die of a heart attack? Hmm. Maybe it was the cat. Cat scratch fever? Maybe not. But an animal's claws or mouth are covered in bacteria that could find its way into a human body and hibernate there for years. Maybe the cat scratched him and the bacteria debilitated the infected heart muscle. Could be.

No. That was no heart attack!