In your opnion??

What did you think when Fredo got whacked?

Did you feel sorry for him or did he deserve it??

Little bit of both

Viewing it for the first time, the pathos of the scene (Fredo sharing a warm family memory with Anthony, saying his "Hail Mary") made me sympathetic to Fredo. Thinking about it later, and putting it in the context of Fredo's boathouse outburst, I came to realize that Fredo had to go--he was a threat to Michael as long as he was alive.

Sorry

I think the snibbling little wuss should have been iced much sooner, or at best learned the pizza business....

Ditto.

And I'll add that in context with the business he & his family were in and how he treated his brother as well as his Don...Fredo got exactly what he deserved.

Poor Fredo

Right? I'm a little surprised with some of the replies here. Considering they're movies about family, where is the compassion???

Poor poor Fredo. He didn't know it was gonna be a hit. He really thought that there was something in it for him, on his own, to help the family.

Poor Poor Fredo.

Fredo was selfish and stupid.

Compassion? For a group of people that treat murder as a way of doing buiness?

Too bad he didn't learn his lesson and know that things aren't always the way he thinks they are. If he did, he would have know that Al wasn't just taking him out for a little fishing.

Only a scum would have his own brother, especially one that was weak and feable minded, murdered.

In a similar situation, I think that Vito's thinking would have gone:

1. I am the head of the family (not "The Family," just the family);
2. Fredo is my responsibility;
3. Fredo's betrayal is due to my carelessness.

Had Vito still been around, and Fredo done something so stupid, I think that he would have been confined to the compound or sent to a sanitorium or something. He would not have been killed.

The tragedy to Michael is not so much that he killed his own brother, as that he killed his father's son.

In GFIII he said as much. He only mimicked what his father was; he lacked Vito's inherent qualities.

Poor Fredo, my ass! He was a danger to the Family as well as the family. He put Michael, Kay and the children in the line of fire. It's always been my opinion that Michael thought about letting Fredo live until the boathouse scene. When he saw the depth of Fredo's anger and resentment, he knew that he couldn't let his brother off the hook.

I feel bad for Fredo. I personally think it's a dang shame that Mike killed his own blood like that. But it is the mob, and that's just the way it goes I guess.

Even if that brother helped in an assasination attempt on his brother and his wife, not to mention the damage caused to some of their children's toys?

Do you believe Fredo knew it was gonna be a hit on Michael??

Sure, Fredo was stupid, but is that reason enough to kill your own brother?? Mike could have easily sent him away instead of killing him.

It was the defining moment when Mike lost his soul, and although I was sorry to see Mary die in the end of Part III, I thought it was almost a "payback" for his killing his own brother.

Fredo didn't know.

And if anything, after Fredo's outburst in that boat house scene, Mike should have realized even more that Fredo didn't realize that there was going to be a hit. After that outburst Mike should have realized that his brother was dumb witted, weak and easily manipulated, and should have never made the decision to kill his own brother, his father's son, his mother's son. The thought of killing his own brother, especially one that was so dumb and simple, should NEVER have even crossed his mind.


C'mon now, even Neri, Mike's own cold blooded gun for hire, has a look on his face, when Michael gives him the nod, like, "are you fucking kidding me, I can't believe you're going to kill your poor ole brother."

What a cold hearted bastard!

Indeed!
He could have just exiled him rather than kill him..
Poor Fredo!

I don't believe that Fredo had to be whacked.

If exiled, he would not have been a threat to the family (or the Family). He was too stupid to mastermind anything and too scared to go against the family. I also do not believe that he knew it was going to be a hit.

Mentally and emotionally, Fredo was a child. C'mon, he thought Hail Marys help you catch fish. He was easily manipulated. He was impulsive, selfish, and venal. He had a temper.

But he was repentant, and he was no continuing threat to Michael and his killing was a new low - even for someone like Michael (as he comes to realize).

Michael knew all that when he talked to Tom in the boathouse right after the failed hit.

If Fredo was exiled you guys think there is no chance he would try to kill Mike and take over? He's DUMB but he could still get lucky. There's not much of a chance he would do that but why leave any chance?

What if Fredo got so angry while he was exiled he talked to the FBI?

Neither of those scenarios would pan out. Sure, Fredo may have been angry at his lowly standing in the Family, but he wasn't hateful towards his family.

The way that Michael was at him.

We will never know what Fredo did or didn't know or do re. the Tahoe shooting. But let's go with what we do know:
1. Fredo actively conspired with Roth and Ola against his brother's interests, for his own personal gain. ("Johnny Ola bumped into me in Beverly Hills...he said you were being tough on negotiations...but if they could get some help, there'd be something in it for me."[emphasis added.]
2. Fredo's involvement with Roth and Ola was deeper than his disingenuous "bumping into" Ola in Beverly Hills. (At the Superman show: "Johnny Ola brought me here...old man Roth would never come here, but ol' Johnny knows these places like the back of his hand.") Fredo could not possibly have gone clubbing with "ol' Johnny" during that visit to Havana, right under Michael's nose. He had to have been to Cuba with Ola (and maybe Roth) earlier.
3. Fredo had expected to be named head of the family. He was deeply resentful of Michael. ("I'm your older brother, Mike...I was passed over...IT AIN'T THE WAY I WANTED IT!!!)
4. The drapes in Michael and Kay's bedroom were opened to give the gunmen clear shots at Michael. ("Michael, why are the drapes open?" followed by machine gun fire through the window.)
5. Fredo had some role in the events of that night. ("You guys lied to me"--to Ola on the phone afterward; "I swear to God, Mike, I didn't know it was gonna be a hit"--to Michael in the boathouse.)

The last two statements could suggest that Fredo didn't know his involvement would be fatal to Michael (and maybe Kay). But, it is a fact that Fredo betrayed his brother for his own gain; and that Michael and Kay were nearly killed as a result.
The best-case scenario (and it's a reach, IMO) is that Fredo was so terminally stupid that he thought that Ola and Roth might want to kidnap Michael and somehow convince him, without harming him, to let Fredo take over. Anyone stupid enough to fall for that is a danger on and on. Worst case (and the one I believe): Fredo knew good and well that he was opening the drapes to facilitate his brother's assassination, or simply closed his eyes and ears to that outcome in his lust to take over the family--and for revenge. Either way, he couldn't be forgiven or trusted.
Yes, DC, Michael was definitely a cold-hearted bastard. And he acted cold-heartely in the way he lured his brother back into the bosom of the family, tricking Anthony and Connie (and Fredo) into believing that he forgave him. He could have had him whacked in New York (Tom evidently knew where he was, as in "Get word to Fredo...") and spared the rest of the family that cruel charade. But Fredo deserved to die--he was a danger to Michael and his family.

A friendly undercover pal couldn't find any information out from Fredo?

I'll never agree with the idea of a brother ordering the murder of his own brother, especially one that was as simple minded as Fredo.

I guess that I will never make a good Don.

I never thought you were a bad consigliere--I thought Santino was a bad Don, rest in peace.

Turnbull's a good man.

As usual, TB hit it right on the head. Fredo posed an inherent danger to the family and to the Family. Michael had NO CHOICE but to eliminate him.

While we may find Michael loathsome and cold, he did what he HAD to do.

As the end of the novel, Tom meets with Kay, and she asks him why Carlo couldn't be forgiven. Although Tom explains why, he also says, "In this world, he could have been forgiven." (I'm paraphrasing, btw). That also explains why Michael could never forgive Fredo's treachery, especially after seeing the depth of his envy.

Envy is a very dangerous emotion, and Michael recognized that.

But a good person.

Remember: The two rarely, if ever, go hand in hand.

Thank you PB.

SB, would you order the death of your own brother, especially if he was a bit on the simple side?

Nope.

Mike knew it, too, when Part III came around.

That's an impossible question to answer (now, if you had said my brother-in-law, that would be a different story ). As I said in my earlier post, Tom recognizes that the real world and the mafia world are two very different ones. In Michael's world, that kind of treachery can never be forgiven. In ours, you might end up with some uncomfortable Thanksgivings, but you wouldn't have him killed!

[quote=Turnbull]
1. Fredo actively conspired with Roth and Ola against his brother's interests, for his own personal gain. ("Johnny Ola bumped into me in Beverly Hills...he said you were being tough on negotiations...but if they could get some help, there'd be something in it for me."[emphasis added.]


But Fredo also said that he thought it would be good for the family.

I think the best explanation for Fredo's role is that they told him they needed the drapes open for some relatively innocuous reason, like that they had to know where Michael was so that they could search his office or some such.

You think that Vito would have ordered the death of his own brother? Would Sonny have ordered the death of his own brother?

Sonny would just beat the shit out of his brother.

Vito didn't have the heart, and Sonny definitely didn't. He couldn't even kill his brother-in-law, who he hated. However, Michael could and did, and Vito sanctioned it. He knew he was leaving it in Michael's hands. So, while Vito couldn't bring himself to do it, he knew it was going to happen, and he probably was relieved to be passing that particular chore to Michael.

So, no, they couldn't. However, Vito also had the type of personality that encouraged loyalty. He would never have been the focus of such resentment because he had far superior people skills than Michael.

So Michael did NOT have to kill his own brother because he was a Mafia Don. He really didn't have to have Fredo killed. There were other alternatives.

The bottom line is that Michael had grown into this egotistical, paranoid, self serving cold hearted son of a bitch and that is why he could not see it clear to punish his brother some other way other than ordering his death.

He didn't have to and shouldn't have ordered the death of his own brother.

Yeah he coulda kept him locked in the basement

The idea here is the possibility of future damage to Michael or the family from Fredo. His resentment wouldn't just disappear.

I think all the things Fredo said was because Ola and Roth had manipulated him, he was a dumb guy. Mike should have known how weak fredo was and how easy Roth could have taken advantage of him. Mike should have kept him close.

I felt sorry for fredo and mike shouldnt have killed him, exile would have been the best method (but also keeping track of what he was doing when he was away).

The dialog went as follows:
Fredo: "He said it would be good for the Family.
Michael: And you believed that?
Fredo: He said there'd be something in it for me." [emphasis in original.]
What was important to Fredo was "me," not the Family.

Toward what end? That's a huge stretch.

Correct TB. In that dialogue what Johnny told Fredo that the quick conclusion of the negotiations Mike was being tough on would be good for the family....the "something in it for me" was an added bonus.

I still maintain that Fredo did not have to die.

Not only is his exact role in the hit unclear to us, it is also unclear to Michael. There's no indication that Michael ever learned what Fredo said or did to help Roth and Ola, only that he was somehow involved with them prior to the hit.

Also, the idea that Fredo was a continuing threat to Michael is belied by Michael's own actions. Fredo is hanging around the compound when Michael decides to talk to him. Even after that conversation - at which point Michael has clearly decided to kill him - Michael still allows him to come visit Mama. If Michael viewed Fredo as a continuing threat, there's no way he would have allowed Fredo to visit the compound.

Michael's lack of knowledge of the extent of Fredo's treachery, combined with his willingness to grant Fredo access to the compound, make it clear to me that Fredo's murder was simply vengeance, not self-preservation.

You might believe that vengeance is an appropriate motive for the murder of your child-like brother. I do not.

DC, If you analyze the difference in the men, you would see what I meant.

Vito was a different man than Michael. He inspired love and loyalty. Michael, on the other hand, inspired fear and resentment. Vito never would have been in Michael's position because he never would have made a member of his family feel the way that Fredo did. His dealings with others was smarter. The death of Khartoum and his dealings with the bandleader show that he could be every bit as ruthless as Michael. He knew enough to only use that force when there were no alternatives. Michael got to the point where he didn't bother making that choice.

Sonny, on the other hand, was loud and angry. He was also a generous man who allowed his emotions to get the better of him at times. He could never have killed his brother. But again, I can't imagine him causing the resentment that Michael did.

And even if Vito had caused the resentment that Michael did or Sonny caused the resentment that Michael did and their brother did something dangerous because of the resentment that they may have caused, stupid, but dangerous, I still do not believe that either of them would have ordered the death of their own brother.

And truth be told, it actually was Vito, more than Michael, who caused a resentment to build up in Fredo. He chose Michael to be his successor. It's the way POP wanted it. In fact Michael probably gave more freedom and responsibility to Fredo thatn both Sonny and Vito combined ever did!

Of course Fredo was envious of the power that Michael was given over the family. But Michael should have shown a bit more compassion and understanding. This was his blood brother, his mother and father's son. Not some enemy from another family.

It was Michael's paranoia, his having to show the others around him that he was the all powerful DON who would tolerate nothing, that played an integral part in his making the decision to do away with his brother.

It was a horrible decision. And that decision played a huge part in Michael's inner decline.

Don't forget that he at least died of natural causes and apparently a ripe old age.

To where?

Sonny would have done it himself.

Never. No way. As hot headed as Sonny was, he would have never planned out and ordered the death of his own brother. He had a heart. Somewhere along the line Michael lost his.





Exiled to a life in prison of sorts. Alone and guilt ridden. Left to suffer all those years with the thought of how he destroyed his family. Left to ponder until dying of natural causes at a ripe old age the thought of how his thirst for power, his quest for legitimacy and his hubris cost him his daughter, how his actions indirectly took away her young life. How the path that he chose ripped apart his family.

Yep, he lived to a ripe old age alright.

I'd rather die the way that Fredo did than to live that long with all the guilt and loneliness that Michael suffered with.

I think we have touched on this before, but I think it was the way Michael treated Fredo that upset him, not the fact that Michael passed him over as the head of the family business. There's a really touching scene where Fredo tells his half dead father that "I'm gonna learn the casino business." Fredo is actually proud of himself even though the truth is Sonnny is just getting him out of the way.

If Michael had handled Fredo with more kindness, Fredo would not have betrayed him. Look how remorseful Fredo is in Havana when he says to Michael "Why didn't we spend time like this before?"
If they had, Michael would have had Fredo as a loyal ally and not as a resentful younger brother who felt rejected.

Well, this may be a minority opinion, but I think Michael believed he was trying to be fair to Fredo:
--It was Vito's decision, not Michael's, that Michael be head of the family. A no-brainer anyway, since Fredo was a no-brainer.
--Fredo had embarrassed the family in Vegas by acting in a "degenerate" (2-at-a-time) way that upset Vito, and by permitting Moe Green to slap him around in public. He made the family look weak.
--He compounded the Vegas mistakes by taking Moe's side in the dispute over buying Moe out. If Sonny's remarks at the Sollozzo meeting exposed a ch**nk in the family's armor, so Fredo's remarks in Vegas made it look like Michael really wasn't in charge. A case could be made that Fredo's suggestion that Michael wasn't the last word in that dispute might have led Moe to hold out, resulting in his murder. Fredo certainly made Michael look bad.
--Fredo married a trampy slut--a drunk, a flirt, and a bigot to boot ("Never marry a wop...") who, among other things, made an embarrassing scene in front of myriad important guests at Anthony's party--an important event in Michael's "legitimization."

Despite all of this, Michael supported Fredo and let him live on the compound. Yes, he gave him "Mickey Mouse" jobs, but probably they were the only kinds of jobs a dimwit like Fredo could handle. Probably those "Mickey Mouse" jobs kept Fredo from getting into serious trouble on his own.

And how did he reward his brother's perseverence? By betraying him to Roth and Ola.

Fredo resented Michael because he was "passed over" for the Donship--an expectation that was totally ridiculous in his case. It wasn't Michael's fault that Fredo wasn't qualified to run a two-car funeral, much less a the country's top Mafia family. His death was a consequence of an act of betrayal of his brother that he chose to commit.

Michael was, definitely, a cold-hearted bastard. And killing his own brother was a reprehensible, revolting, immoral act. Michael was a product of the environment he chose. His behavior, and the disasters that befell him, were consequences of the choices he made. Rough justice.

I think your right TB. Also,most peole are not so daft that they cannot figure out that they are just not as bright as other peole, not as popular as other peole, and don't make as many good decisions as other peole. I am sure that Fredo kicked himself in the butt a few times over his insufficiencies. Of course, like many people in the same situation, he would tend to blame others for his insufficiencies - self-pity. So, he sought comfort in the arms of faux respect. It just as well could have been the bottle, or drugs, or mindless abandon.

TB you make an excellent point, however Vito didn't kill Sonny because he made intemperate remarks and screewed around with too many women.

In thinking about it, Vito had to know in his heart of hearts that the only son he had who had the qualities to succeed him was Michael. Maybe thats why he kept after him to "have a talk" about his future. Vito also had to realize that Sonny would not be a prudent Don and that if and when Sonny took over he would run the family into the ground. Still he did nothing to remedy this. So maybe he was going soft, and maybe, as reprehensible as Michael's act was, it wass justified in the cirminal mind set which they all had.

...but Sonny didn't actively choose to betray Vito--as Fredo chose to betray Michael.
But I don't disagree with anyone here that Vito would never have had Fredo killed. He had a heart in him. Michael didn't.

I think if there's one overarching message in the Trilogy it's this: Crime doesn't pay. Michael's whole life story was a continuing series of winning battles--and losing wars. It was no one's fault but his.

Turnbull, before even reading the rest of your post the exact same thought came to my mind.

I never felt that Michael thought that he was treating Fredo unfairly or intentionally treated him unfairly. I think that Michael built a wall around himself with everyone. Distanced himself from everyone and would not let himself get intimate with anyone. However I think that Michael sincerely thought that by letting Fredo run some Mickey Mouse Nightclub, some Brothel, and giving him his own people, that he was doing the right thing by him. He was taking care of his brother. But Fredo was too dumb, too simple to see this.

Where I blame Michael is in his coldness. Again he was cold with everyone. But Fredo was his brother and not a smhat one at that. Michael should have spent more intimate time with Fredo, did things with him. Even let him sit in on the unimportant meetings.
If he had done that, had spent "more time together" with his brother, I don't believe that Fredo would have been so bitter.

Bingo, DC!! That's what I was trying to say about the difference between Michael and Vito. Vito knew how to treat people. He always treated them with warmth and respect. Look at how he was with Luca at the wedding!

That was the big difference. Vito never would have done anything to cause his brother to resent him. He would have known better how to manage him, to make him feel loved and included, part of the Family and the family.

Never. No way. As hot headed as Sonny was, he would have never planned out and ordered the death of his own brother. He had a heart. Somewhere along the line Michael lost his.


I disagree. Remember how he went after Fredo at the surprise party when Fredo sided with Mike!



[quote=johnny ola][quote=SC]

Never. No way. As hot headed as Sonny was, he would have never planned out and ordered the death of his own brother. He had a heart. Somewhere along the line Michael lost his.


I disagree. Remember how he went after Fredo at the surprise party when Fredo sided with Mike!

That was just sibling expression within the context of sibling relationships. Sonny would never have done it.

And I'll never agree with the idea of a brother conspiring with a rival against his Don, who happens to be his own brother, knowing full well the deadly business they were in, admittedly for his own personal gain.

Simple minded as he may have been, Fredo wasn't a half-wit. He was responsible for his own actions. He would've known full well upon agreeing to work with Roth/Ola that...even WITHOUT the attempted hit...his life was worthless if Michael found out.

And it's true...anyone who refuses to understand this wouldn't make a very good Don. (But then, who among us would...???)

Oh, and by the way...in that fishing boat, at the end...Fredo didn't know what was coming.

Apple

Not that it would've happened the same way, but had Fredo done to Sonny what he eventually did to Michael...Sonny would've beat the crap out of Fredo and THEN ordered his death, even if he didn't pull the trigger himself. And he probably would NOT have had the patience to wait until their mother was no longer alive.

Cold & calculating has he had become, Michael had a reasonable amount of heart...even after Fredo broke it.

Apple

Actually, by naming Michael his successor over Fredo while still alive, which of course was the right thing to do (That's the way pop wanted it...), Vito DID initiate and plant the seed of Fredo's resentment toward Michael. The least of Vito's concerns would've been that Fredo should one day be Don.

All he probably would've asked was that Fredo be 'taken care of', included in as much as he could possibly handle. Which was exactly what Michael did. Whether it was meeting people at the airport or running some Mickey Mouse joint, Fredo was given work to do within the Family and most likely on a payroll & provided very well for by his brother. Someone as 'simple' as this should've been very grateful and happy with what he had.

After Vito's death, Michael had a powerful Mafia Family to run. Not being the same man as his father, he did all he could in terms of handling Fredo. The idea of 'spending more time with his brother' throughout all this is frankly, absurd. Nothing Michael did warranted the resentment and selfish betrayal to the extent Fredo acted.

No matter how you slice it...Fredo deserved what he got. You can certainly feel sorry for him as a stupid human being who got
taken advantage of and was in WAY over his head...but after all is said & done he had to go.

Apple

No he didn't he thought he'd say "Amen" and catch a big fish.

God! Did any of your siblings live after you were born?

Keep in mind, Vito included Fredo in the meeting with Solozzo, and it wasn't Fredo who blew the meeting.

You're point being?

Well, that was what, 13-14 years before the events of GF II?

A lot more water had gone under the bridge since then.

Obviously Vito thought Fredo was at least minimally competent at the time of the Solozzo meeting, competent enough to let him serve as "bodyguard" (even if only briefly) during the absence of Paulie, thus entrusting his life to him (and almost getting killed as a result).

When Vito is lying on the curb, critically wounded, what does Fredo do? Sit down on the curb and collapse into tears.

From that moment on, Vito knew Fredo could never be trusted to handle anything really significant.

What finally tore it for Michael was Fredo's outburst in the boathouse ("I was passed over," etc etc), but worse than that, he also feeds Michael a line of BS about the Senate committee and Questadt (which Michael KNOWS is BS), at that point Michael decides Fredo is still trying to snow him, and he has to go.

Maybe, if Fredo had come to Michael completely contrite, apologized for what he did wrong, and NOT fed him bullcrap information, Michael might have decided Fredo could be allowed to live, as long as he was stashed somewhere he couldn't cause trouble.

But even after Fredo knows Michael has found him out, he knows all about the deal with Ola and Roth, he still tries to snow him, he isn't going to change his tune. Fredo signed his own death warrant with his "I was passed over!!" temper tantrum.

Fredo said, "The got Pentangeli," and "That Senate lawyer, Questadt, belongs to Roth." What was BS about that?

Ultimately fredo was dumb and got manipulated easily by Roth and Ola. You can blame Mike and Vito for not treating Fredo right (which i have done in the past) but now come to think of it its Fredo that messed up big time.

Even if fredo was planning against Mike he was realy sloppy. The boathouse meeting showed that Fredos motivation was all emotion and no reason.

Fredo was trully a dumbwitted boy who was in the wrong family.

I thought that twice he didnt know it was gonna be a hit

Although I think he really knew one of the two times.

Nothing's BS about it, but it's more or less common knowledge, and Michael wants Fredo to tell him something he doesn't already know.