Was Moe Green really "unlucky"?

In GF when Michael visits Moe Green in Vegas he makes a statement that I don't quite understand.....

MICHAEL: Your casino loses money -- maybe we can do better...

MOE: You think I'm skimmin' off the top, Mike?

MICHAEL: You're unlucky

Could Mike really think Moe is "unlucky"? Without knowing the casino business, I can't believe a casino would lose money because it was unlucky. Was Michael just trying to aggravate Moe and put him on the defensive?

The Moe Green character is loosely based on the Real Bugsy Siegal, who most definitely was skimming off the top.

Or, as assumed in the movie Bugsy, Seigal's girlfriend, Virginia Hill, was.

I always thought it was an under-hand smite on Mike's part - suggesting that Moe(The Career Gambler), was inadequate in the Casino business due to his being "unlucky".

I think it was some of that, and also, Mike realizes Moe is a hothead, likely to blow up (which of course, he does to some extent when he yells "I'll buy YOU out!!") and he's just mollifying him to some extent to get him to calm down for a minute and defuse the situation.

Remember, at that moment, Vegas is Moe Greene's home turf, and Michael had to tread at least a little bit lightly. If Michael pushed the situation to an open confrontation with Moe, by openly accusing him of skimming off the top, somebody would have to do something.

Better for Michael to throw Moe a small bone ("you're not skimming, just unlucky") to defuse the situation before it came down to a direct call-out. Michael already knew he was going to get rid of Moe; he just wanted to do it on his own time frame.

I think FFC and Puzo intended the Moe Green "unlucky" remark to continue the close parallel to Bugsy Siegel's life. Siegel became infatuated with the casino/hotel business, even though he had no experience in either. His involvement in every little detail of the building of the Flamingo Hotel was obsessive. His original $1 million estimate to build the hotel ran past $5 million. Even though he and/or Virginia Hill may have been embezzling some of that, the bulk of the overruns were caused by Bugsy's lack of savvy. He overpaid tremendously for building materials that were in short supply due to wartime conditions, and his contractors ripped him off mercilessly. He also ceaslessly fiddled with the design, which ran up the bill.

When he opened on December 26, 1946, only the casino, restaurant and show floor were ready--the sleeping rooms weren't. A huge storm kept his Hollywood pals bottled up in LA. The guests came early and, taking advantage of the newness of his dealers and croupiers, cleaned him out. They then repaired to the hotels in town (the Flamingo was on the outskirts at that time) and, according to legend, lost Bugsy's money, enriching his competitors. Bugsy was forced to close the Flamingo. When it reopened that Spring, it began to make money. But by that time, he'd made countless enemies to whom he'd sold thousands of points in the hotel--to say nothing of his suspicious partners in the NY mob. That's why, in June, 1947, "Someone [cough] put a bullet in his eye."

Bugsy wasn't unlucky--he was more naive than unlucky. The Flamingo wasn't under his ownership long enough for him to be skimming profits, and there weren't any, initially. Within an hour of his assassination, two big-time, mob-connected gamblers--Moe Sedway and Gus Greenbaum--took over and began making money hand over fist.

....and now for the rest of the story.

Gus Greenbaum (1894–December 3, 1958) was a member of the Chicago Outfit and syndicate accountant for Las Vegas casino operations.

An associate of Meyer Lansky, Greenbaum joined his organization on New York's Lower East Side sometime during the mid to late 1910s. During Prohibition, Greenbaum began working with the Chicago Outfit managing the southwest division of the Trans-America wire service in 1928. Sent to Las Vegas shortly after WWII, Greenbaum gained control over syndicate gambling operations, with Morris Rosen and Moe Sedway, following the death of Bugsy Siegel in 1947.

Taking over as manager of the Flamingo Hotel, Greenbaum brought the struggling casino out of debt within several months, eventually controlling several other syndicate casinos and bookmaking operations in Arizona within several years. As a leading syndicate leader in Las Vegas, Greenbaum would later order the deaths of Tony Brancato and Tony Tombino for robbing a syndicate hotel. Shortly after becoming manager of the Riviera Hotel, Greenbaum's excessive gambling, womanizing, and drug habits eventually caused him to begin skimming from casino operations. However, his embezzlement was soon discovered by the Chicago syndicate, and on December 3, 1958, both he and his wife were found in their Phoenix home with their throats slashed.

TB and JO,

Great narratives on the story behind the story. Thanks.
Was Greenbaum the guy who was banging cocktail waitresses, two at a time?

Listen to the tone he says it and his face as he says it. Do you think he really said Moe is unlucky?

With 20/20 hindsight, and staying inside the film (fascinating as the Bugsy Siegal stories are) I think the key line comes just before the part about skimming, when Michael tells Moe that the casino isn't making money and "maybe we can do better." This is a veiled threat to Moe that Michael correctly believes that if Moe is moved out by force, his mentor and protector Hyman Roth will "let it go."

He then goes out of his way not to accuse Moe of skimming because that is beside the point, and it is not the fight he wants to pick.

Greene sees this and first counters with the comment "yo9u guineas are really something... I take fredo in when you're having a bad time...etc" to which Michael sets Moe straight that he took Fredo in because the Molinari family guaranteed his safety and the Corleones bankrolled his casino.

Green then ups the ante by telling Mike the Corleones don't have the muscle to move him out and that he "talks to Barzini" who will allow him to make a deal and still keep the hotel. Clearly this means Moe is in a precarious position because he is going to have to let somebody wet his beak if he is to keep anything.

This doesn't phase Michael who wrongly steps into the argument about Moe's slapping Fredo around. When he realizes Moe did it because Fredo was banging cocktail waitresses two at a time, he drops that argument quickly, and just says to Moe "think about a price."

Having already embarrassed Michael, Fredo then makes things worse by going to Tom and asking if Vito can intervene for Moe...thus the harshness of Michael's warning to Fredo to never take sides against the family again.

dt,

Nicely capsulized. The encounter between Moe and Michael is one of those genius scenes of script writing and filming; subtle in some ways and blunt in others. The scene brings the Michael-as-Don more to the forefront. He's challenged, but he doesn't back down and then he lays down the line to Fredo, "don't ever take sides against the family."

Plus, it's that rarest of film occasions: an excellent performance by Alex Rocco.
Excellent point, dt, about Moe being in a precarious position because he has to let Barzini wet his beak. You have to wonder: did he think that the Corleones' giving him a big chunk of money to finish his hotel would be the end of their interest in it?

Plus, it's that rarest of film occasions: an excellent performance by Alex Rocco.
Excellent point, dt, about Moe being in a precarious position because he has to let Barzini wet his beak. You have to wonder: did he think that the Corleones' giving him a big chunk of money to finish his hotel would be the end of their interest in it? [/quote]

I though Alex Rocco reprised his role very well in Get Shorty.

As for Moe not thinking the Corleones would want their favor returned, you know Moe...headstrong, talking loud, saying stupid things....

...thinking stupid things, too...

...thinking stupid things, too... [/quote]

Yeah, but you can't deny he still made his bones while Michael was dating cheerleaders (like that mattered?).

Michael never struck me as the cheerleader-dating type. Gently-bred WASPs with tendencies to gush, and adolescent Mediterraneans seemed more his speed...

I think using the word "cheerleader", is sort of a generic word used to denote what a man desires when he is young, as cheerleaders are supposed to be the highest level of sexual desire as a youth.

I think I would disagree that Michael says it to diffuse the situation. In the shooting script for the film (you can find it at: http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/The_Godfather.html ), the line appears with the following stage/dialogue direction:

MICHAEL
(the worst insult)
You're unlucky.

I never quite understood why this was such an insult - maybe he's indicating that Moe doesn't really have control over the situation.

I think that we must take the whole scene and the whole conversation into consideration here.



I think that his lines to Moe..."My credit good enough to buy you out?"..."Your casino loses money" ....are abrupt lines that intentionally insinuate that Moe is skimming. And Michael wants Moe to know that he suspects him of skimming. It was his way of pissing off Moe without directly accusing him of skimming. It was Michael's way of getting Moe to bring up the skimming himself. And then with his "you're unlucky" response along with that 'that's all I'm saying' look on his face, Mike makes Moe Green look, in front of everyone else, like he's guilty of some wrong doing. Makes other sitting in that room say to themselves "Why would he bring up the term skimming? Michael never used that term, he did. So maybe he is skimming." And what does Moe do in front of everyone in that room? He attacks the Corleones, he reveals that he has been talking to Barzini. Moe was head-strong, talking loud, saying stupid things. And Michael knew how he was. A cunning move by Michael to make Moe look like the bad guy that had to go.

In high school he probably did date blonde cheerleaders just to piss his father off. He evolved to the "Gently bred WASP " sfter a couple of years at Dartmouth.

A casino doesn't lose money by being unlucky. He pretty much accuses him of skimming without using the words. He did mean it as an insult to put Moe on the defensive and take control of the conversation to tell him he was going to be out of the casino business one way or the other.

Whoever said it was Moe, not Michael who first brought up the issue of skimming is on to something. Since well run casinos never lose money something was wrong with Moe's operation, and the word had to be out that he was losing money. As we know from scenes in GFII, the proceeds from these casinos was always divided up among different families so everyone could wet his beak a little. Word on the street had to be that Moe was losing money, and was trying to save his hotel. He admits as much to Mike when he says he can make a deal with Barzini and still keep his hotel. With all that going on it would be logical for Moe's creditors to suspect him of skimming. Whatever the case Moe was way too defensive by bringing it up.
Come to think of it his whole reaction to Michael was one of someone who was very afraid, and not at all in control. Typical that Fredo would be still sucking up to him as in "Me and Moe...we're good friends..."

In his HOME! IN HIS BEDROOM! WHERE HIS WIFE SLEEPS AND HIS CHILDREN COME TO PLAY WITH THEIR TOYS!

Basically what I said in my post above.

Yeah we know DC, We already said all that stuff...

It is interesting to note that the real life mob figure Meyer Lansky, who Hyman Roth is based off of in Part II, was forced to agree to a hit on his friend Bugsy Siegel, who Moe Green is based off of in Part I, for continuing to lose the mafia's money invested in the casino. And then in Part II, they make up their own story that Roth has a grudge against Michale and the Corleone Family for having his good friend killed. And here is this famous quote by Lansky.

"If it was in my power to see Benny alive. He would live as long as Mathusala."

Keep in mind that we don't know where the "story" begins and ends no matter who is telling it.