Rocco's treachery?

Rocco-- I know we (Turnbull included) have speculated about Rocco's possible 'redemption' with his mission to kill Roth. Neri's value might have been replacing Rocco's worth in MIke's eyes and he needed to assure his position w/ MIke. I personally think all involved knew the Roth hit was a suicide mission which is why I ask..... Is Rocco going on this suicide mission to atone for his involvement in the failed Tahoe hit on MIke? First reaction would be to brush it off b/c Mike never gave anyone a second chance. Mike killed his own brother for being a traitor but Fredo offered no value to him, Rocco certainly did. The same theme that Mike encounters in part 1 is driven home all the more by Roth's infamous 'b/c it had nothing to do w/ business' speech. Rocco's treason was business not personal.

1.)At Anthony's communion party Rocco appears to possibly be the man who greets the boat. (possibly not though, but the similarity of the two has come up here many times before.)The boat obviously contains the gunmen or the scene would not be there. Right?
2.)Rocco is certainly one of the usual suspects when discussing the Tahoe hit.
3.)Rocco might have had something to gain if as we(Turnbull)speculated, Neri was the irreplacable one, not Rocco.
4.)'Difficult not impossible' meaning its only possible if you have someone very trusted and someone very good to carry out a suicide mission.
*5.) Rocco is entering in the same deal that Frankie(the other 'traitor') agrees too. Kill themselves, and their families will be taken care of. Mike is shunning Tom for lack of loyalty while Rocco and Mike both eat a orange. Through the sharing of the food they are one, through Rocco dying for the family they are one, Rocco is now one with the family. He will be taken care of, he will redeem himself and redeem his worthiness to the family, 'now will you redeem your self Tom'? What symbolism do you see in this orange sharing????

Do you give any creedence to ANY of this mess w/ Rocco? B/C sometimes I feel as if FFC is slapping us in the face w/ it. If Rocco was involved in the hit they both could have viewed it as 'well we are both 'BUSINESSMEN', and this allowed them to negotiate a business type settlement.

Short answer: No.
Longer answer: Yes, some people here have cited or posted earlier scripts that indicated that Rocco had something to do with the Tahoe shooting. Many earlier scripts exist with radically different plot lines than what we saw. But I stick with the final cut, because that's what FFC intended us to see.

I go with my much-posted (if plaw, rest in peace, were with us, he'd groan) theory: Rocco, outdistanced by Neri in the family pantheon, was given a no-options proposition by Michael. He took it because he saw it as his last chance to regain status in the family. Michael offered it to him because he saw Rocco as expendible at that point, but he wanted Neri to remain. Rocco, let's remember, was Clemenza's protege; Neri was Michael's.

No, no. Neri was recruited by Mike specifically to be, as Vito put it, Michael's Luca Brasi personally loyal to him and paid a salary. Rocco was recruited by Clemenza although Vito recognized his abilities as his driver to the Commission meeting in GFI. To Mike, Rocco was a capo, that's really about all. Yes, he was indeed expendable and his agreement to go after Roth was probably more bravado than thought through.

This topic is getting somewhat shopworn, and I agree withthe Plaw-Turnbull theory that Rocco just wanted to get more respect. I do not believe he betrayed Michael. If he had Michael would not have had him in his inner council. He would have had Neri take him fishing.

I don't think it was to gain more respect. I just think he didn't anticipate how difficult it would be and that he would probably be killed. The fact htat he didn't anticipate that solidifies his position as just a capo, nothing more.

Rocco did the hit on Roth to further his career. As he said, it would be difficult, not impossible.

This is supported by the fact that Coppola wrote a part for Rocco in Part III in which Rocco was still a member of the Corleone family and had only been wounded in the airport. But the actor playing Rocco, Tom Rosqui, opted out saying Rocco died of his injuries. Rosqui was also dealing with cancer at the time and eventually died from cancer in 1991. That is all explained in a couple Godfather documentaries.

What's more, Michael basically gave Rocco no choice. The sequence of dialog is important:
After humiliating Tom about the mistress and the offer from the House and Hotels (note Neri smirking, which tells me he was the source of that info), Michael turns to Roth's arrival and says, "I want it [the plane] met." Tom responds with his "impossible...do you want to wipe out everyone?" speech. Michael smugly replies, "Y'know Tom, you surprise me...anyone can be killed." He instantly turns and says, "Rocco?" After all that put-down of Tom, Rocco really didn't have the option of saying, "Uh, Mike, uh, I agree with Tom, it's impossible."

Well even though the final cut may be all that counts, if its true FFC had Rocco in the 3rd movie then I have officially forgotten about the possibility of the Roth hit being a suicide mission.

I need to track down some of these infamous alternative scripts that everyone is so keen on referencing in here.

Long/Short/In-between Answers:

1. Although he did get killed, Rocco's hit on Roth was NOT considered a suicide mission. After being questioned about it by Michael, he stated it would be 'difficult...not impossible'. Which implies that though extremely dangerous, he felt he could possibly accomplish the mission and escape.

2. Rocco was NOT involved in the Tahoe hit. IF HE WERE, WE WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE AWARE OF THAT AT SOME POINT IN THE FILM.

3. Rocco also appears to be possibly one of the guys eating Chinese food before Mike heads off to the Solozzo hit. Any more 'possibly Rocco' sightings?

4. The only thing FFC is 'slapping us in the face' with is just about everything in GFIII. Most every other minute detail can be whatever we want to read into it.

5. What symbolism do we see in the gnoochi-rolling that takes place between Mary & Vincent? I think that's worth exploring next.

Gee, for someone who has claimed in the past that she has never wasted her time watching GFIII, you seem to know a lot of details about many different scenes from that movie.

Seriously though, I can't stand watching that part with the Gnocchi rolling hand contact bullshit. Absolutely a scene that I could have lived without. As a matter of fact the whole sub-plot of incestual undertones was totally unnecessary.

As for Rocco being included in GFIII in an alternate script, I was never aware of this. And if this true, than in my opinion, it removes all speculation about the possibility of Rocco setting out to kill Roth for the purpose of redeeming himself for setting up Michael in GFII. I never really bought into that theory anyway, and this new info about Rocco originally being written in the GFIII script puts that redemption theory totally to rest for me know.


Don Cardi

So your saying its NOT considered a suicide mission but Rocco does think it to be 'extremely dangerous, and feels he can POSSIBLY escape?' Maybe not suicide bomber type suicide but 'extremely dangerous' all the same.
Also, 'Difficult not impossible' refers more to Tom's assertion that 'theres no way we can get to him.' Not referring to Rocco/potential gunmens chances of escape.

MY THEORY--Is it possible that Mike CANNOT under any circumstances afford to have any of the gunmen fall into the FBI's hands? After all he is just coming off perjury charges. If they send in a team, one or more gunmen are either likely to survive, or fall to the FBI. Either way, they are now dangerous to Mike. Soooo.....he cannot have anyone survive the hit and become a possible witness. Whoever whacks Roth cannot live to tell about it........Sacrificial Rocco. Therefore, "Mike thats impossible theres no way we can get to him" means we can't get to him w/o having the FBI take hostages.....Oh yes we can Tom, 'difficult not impossible' Rocco will sacrifice his life like Frankie in order to pay his debt.

Staying up late to write this, so JUST CONSIDER THIS,

We (TB) often speak of Rocco's 'redemption'. Additionaly we have Anthony's communion and Fredo's Hail Mary, ALSO examples of redemption. Fredo is redeemed through the saying of the Lord's Prayer. Anthony is redeemed through his eating the 'sacred' bread at his communion. Through Christ's dead body which Christians interpret to be the bread, Anthony is redeemed. Rocco and Mike are eating the 'sacred' orange. Through Rocco's dead body(the orange) both he and Micheal are saved/redeemed. Rocco is redeemed from his treason(or possibly his lack of worth compared to Neri) and Mike saved from having his gunmen fall into the hands of the 'internal revenue and half the fbi.'

This brings up another issue:
The late plaw and I used to go round and round on the issue of: was it really Rocco in the Chinese food scene? I said yes, he said no. I once had him and Vicki to my home, and I went frame-by-frame over the deleted scene in which Rocco gets the contract on Paulie. But plaw remained unconvinced. I simply thought the guy in the Chinese food scene looked a lot like Rocco.

But, though plaw didn't press this issue, I must raise a point on his side: Since Rocco had "made his bones on Paulie" only that day, or at most a couple of days before, what was he doing in the Councils of the Mighty, breaking rice with Sonny, Tom, Clemenza, Tessio and Michael? Doesn't seem logical. Possible answers:
1. Upon hearing of Vito's shooting, Sonny immediately suspected Paulie and possibly Clemenza because Paulie was Clemenza's guy. After confirming that Paulie was the rat, he let Clemenza back into the fold. But Sonny couldn't be sure that Paulie hadn't corrupted other members of Clemenza's regime The only other Clemenza guy he could be sure of was Rocco, because Rocco had made his bones by killing Paulie.
2. Clemenza brought Rocco with him because Rocco was his new protege, and having him sit with The Mighty was a way to advance his career (and, not incidentally, for Clemenza to reassert himself after being cleared of complicity in Vito's shooting).
3. It was another FFC filmic device: Though Rocco really didn't belong in that scene, FFC was signaling us that Rocco would rise in the organization.

That was not Rocco in that scene. His facial structure, height, and more were different from Rocco's.

Then who was it?

1.Rocco is the first name Tom mentions in the meeting w/ MIke afterward. We know Mike does not suspect Neri b/c he sends him to move out Klingman.

2.Rocco's prints are all over the grounds, he is the one leading the 'response' team after the hit.

3.Rocco escorts DeAnna to her room who later says after the shooting, 'right out my window, they're lying their dead....'

4.Rocco goes on a ridiculously impossible suicide mission at the end of the movie.

5.Do you think Fredo was the ONLY traitor from inside the family whom the conspirators would have needed?

(If so meet me behind the website for a camel and a clock work Julius. )

The guy eating chinese food is Ramolo, the landscaper.

His name is Barry, and I don't think he prefers the term 'landscaper'. Lawn and yard maintenance specialist.

I have to agree with Turnbull on this one. That is Rocco.


Don Cardi

Like I've said in the past, over the years I've seen quite a few different scenes while switching back & forth from GFIII to other stuff (usually of higher quality, such as Sponge Bob Squarepants). True though, that I've never 'wasted my time' viewing the entire film start-to-finish.

Apple

NONE of these things you mention can be considered even a hint that Rocco was involved in the hit or had betrayed Michael in any way. If he were, we FFC would have provided far more solid evidence by the end of the film.

Yes, I do think Fredo was the only one they needed.

No, I don't think he went into the Roth hit thinking it was a 'suicide mission'.

Need a light?
I'm singin' in the rain...just singin' in the rain...what a glorious feelin, I'm HAPPY again

Ahhh, that explains why you keep calling Sonny's son Patrick, instead of his correct name, Vincent!



Don Cardi

-You mean he 'SHOULD have provided far more solid evidence by the end of the film.' But he obviously did not, thus here we are still 'discussing.'

-Maybe a man like Fredo is all that you would need but in order to penetrate the Corleone compound,....

someone a little less weak and stupid would be preferred.

-When Rocco is with the reporters about to whack Roth he certainly knows his life is over. YET he still is able to stay in character and chuckle at Roth's joke(absentee ballot) before he shoots him. He knew from the start he was a suicide.



Apple you are so Zelda Fitgerald...

"In the mornin'
In the evening
Ain't we got fun---"

"One things sure and nothing's surer
The rich get richer and the poor get---children

"In the meantime
In between time-----"

I still remain unconvinced that Rocco's hit was a chance to redeem himself for treachery in Tahoe. As far as the Roth hit being a suicide mission, I think rather than focusing on whether Rocco knew it was going to be a suicide mission, the bigger question is whether Michael regarded it as such. I believe he did, but not as payback for betrayal, but we'll deal with that in a second. Whether Rocco thought it was a suicide mission is irrelevant, IMO. Either he thought he could handle the hit and keep chugging along with the Family or he believes it might take cost him his life, but he's willing to chance that to get his #2 spot back from Neri, as many others have suggested here and I happen to agree with. In either case it's all the same to Michael.

It's also been stated many times that Neri jumped over Rocco since he was Michael's guy, while Rocco was Clemenza's choice. Rocco and Neri are basically the Clemenza and Tessio of Michael's regime. Vito needed both Capos to run the operations of his empire back in the good 'ol days, when everything was illegal. Michael isn't in charge of the old Olive Oil Business, at least not directly, and his new enterprise, Las Vegas gambling is completely legal, hence he doesn't have the same need for manpower as Vito did. They are going to have to partake in some illegal activities to make their casino successful, but one man and his crew are more than enough, and Neri seems to be that man. Plus, while Michael has no real intentions of going legitimate, he is trying to make it appear that way.

If Neri's gonna be Michael's guy, what use does he have for Rocco? He proved to be inept at handling Michael's security on the compound, there's no way a man like him would take the demotion to go back and take over Frankie's operation, especially after he saw how little respect Michael had for the post. The gap between he and Neri will grow even larger as time goes by and that will lead to animosity, which in turn will lead to betrayal. Michael knows this, hence the need to get rid of Rocco. At the time it might seem foolish to send someone as important as Rocco to kill Roth when some other schmuck could may well have done it, but Michael is constantly looking 2-3 steps ahead. At that point in the film, he is barely human, so there is no sentimental reason to spare Rocco. In short, Michael would make a great GM or fantasy sports player. He bought low on Neri and sold high on Rocco, getting that one last great game out of him before he was done.

Well.....ok. I gotta admit. I was stirring the proverbial pot with my Rocco suicide bomber theory. Mike clearly asks Rocco about the chances of the hit and after he says 'difficult, not impossible' Mike replies w/ 'Good.'

Sooo...sounds like he was genuinely seeking an awnser. Which means the hit was not already planned on that point. UNLESS of course it was all a show for Tom to force Tom's hand on the matter and....uhm no we will leave it there.

(But I do think FFC 'the great' has intention in everything that he puts in these two movies and Rocco running into the buzzsaw must have some kind of meaning. Or as someone in PM told me this morning, 'FFC wrote a sh*tty script.' )

I personally think that Roth only needed 1 traitor, someone very close that Michael would not expect. He knew, the more traitors there are, the more of a chance Mike would find out, then Roth's whole plan to have Mike assassinated is ruined. So he chooses Fredo, the one most easily convinced and also the brother of Mike. Mike, I don't think, never ever suspected Fredo of treachery until Fredo gives it away at the Superman show. Just the expression on Mike's face makes that clear.

Speaking of traitiors, why not Tom who Mike apparently insulted from time to time?

Fredo didn't know it was going to be a hit, so he couldn't have arranged to kill them. And how would Fredo know if Pentangeli was going to "bring his boys" to the meeting?

How would Rocco (limping) kill the assassins, throw them in the drainage ditch, then appear to have just showed up fromthe other end of the compound?

Why would the drapes be closed in the first place? Did Kay get undressed with them open?

Rocco kills Roth simply as a script device. It's drama. It makes no sense logically. But then there are many things inthe Trilogy that make little or no sense such as Apple continually reminds us about GFIII.

But Fredo atleast needed a team to pull this off. He would for sure need some members of the compound's security staff, which is headed by Rocco.

Of course, most of us in here would tell you there is no way that weak and stupid Fredo could have orchestrated ALL of this by himself. i.e-slicing the assassins throats, drapes, etc

First, the reason Michael didn't suspect Tom--why he told him, "Right now you're the only person I can completely trust," was that a) Tom's loyalty was never in question; and b) since Michael had deliberately kept Tom out of the Roth negotiations, and since Michael had concluded that Roth was behind the shooting, he had no reason whatsoever to link Tom with Roth and the attempt. Rocco and Neri, on the other hand, sat in on the meeting with Johnny Ola and may have had motivations to help get rid of Michael. And, as Michael told Tom, "Fredo...is weak and stupid, and this is life and death," which I took to mean that even then, Michael may have felt Fredo had something to do with the attempt, even if it was inadvertent.
But a question that occurs to me is: Since Rocco was linked to Michael, shouldn't Michael have been concerned that if Rocco were killed or captured at the airport, the trail would lead right back to Michael? Michael was a careful man, and I doubt he would have left a loose end like that. I'm guessing that, even though Rocco had been a visible member of his entourage for years (including very visible service as Michael's security guy during Anthony's party), Michael probably had made provisions to portray Rocco for the record as some kind of independent security contractor so that he could have plausible deniability.

Well, Tom could have been approached by Roth just as Fredo was approached by Roth. In neither case was it necessary for Roth to know what they knew. he was trying to find knowlege of Mike's plans.

Your point about Rocco possibly becoming the new Pentangeli if he were captured is a good one. But I doubt that Mike believed that the Feds would buy any kind of story about Rocco being a security guy. Given Mike's high profile as evidenced by the Senate hearing he was subpoened to, the Feds would have the family org chart mapped out with Rocco's picture prominently posted. I still say it was an FFC theatrical device.

I have thought about that TB. For that matter what precautions would have been taken for ANY assassins that Mike figured would have been captured in the Roth hit? As I stated in my earlier post, given the 'physics' of the hit if you will(inside an airport w/ Roth surrounded) the possibility of the assassins NOT escaping has to be on the forefront of Mike's mind. Which is why I speculated he sent one gun instead of say four, one dead gunman instead of 3 dead gunman and 1 FBI hostage.

It had to be. TB's point is well taken, however the fact of the matter is that Rocco was shot dead, and thus was identified by the FBI as one of Michael's hitters. I would suppose that Michael had some kind of means by which he could deny involvement but you would think that someone at the FBI might start sniffing a little pattern here....first all the enemies of the Corleones die on the same afternoon in New York, then a few years later Freank Pentangeli and Hyman Roth die at more or less the same time.

Perhaps this is why he asks Tom 'are you gonna come along with me in these things I have to do or what.' He knew he was going to have to explain his ties to the dead assassins. Which again begs the question why not hire an untraceable assassin? But then again where the heck do you find one is willing to go on a hit like this one?(ROCCOROCCOROCCO)

That point is very well taken, Ice! I'd always thought that when Michael said, "Are you gonna come along with me in these things I have to do," he meant convincing Frankie to kill himself. But clearly, he'd need Tom's "respectability" and his front as the family lawyer (same front used at the Senate hearings) to explain away Michael's ties to Rocco if Rocco were killed or captured in the Roth hit.

I think that with those words, Michael was continuing his long-lasting insult of Tom. Michael said it in the same way as your boss might tell you if you raise an objection or ask a question "if you don't like working here you can go somewhere else." he would have said that to Tom no matter what action Mike proposed on any subject. They just happened to be discussing murder at the time. That's one reason and a major one that prompted Tom to tell Frankie who compared the Corleones to the Roman Empire "it once was."

Ice -

I think you're dead on the money in suspecting Rocco. Note in addition that Rocco is wearing an orange jacket at the beginning of Pt. II, and that it is Rocco, not Ola, who hands Michael the "orange from Miami."

A traitor on the inside must have killed the two men sent to kill Michael, and once it is granted that it could not have been Fredo, all arrows point to Rocco.

~90caliber

fredo never killed anyone... this is a fact

Its also possible that Fredo allowed the assassins on the grounds. If they arrived w/ Johnny they would have been recognized after they were dead. Fredo did not slice the assassins throats, a cpl of Ola's men did that, and these men were shielded by Fredo and later allowed to escape.

Perhaps Freddie was told by Roth 'Open the drapes so we can get a good look at what we are shooting, they are just gonna scare your brother a bit, fire a few shots into his room, get him to thinking.' Of course I think too its also possible that they were indeed just trying to scare Mike, and thats the only reason he lived.