Anyone seen this yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnetraCJDtI

Looking forward to this

That looks pretty intense.

I forgot that it has already came out. Will be looking to watch it soon, it's supposedly on DirecTv and will be checking for it tonight.

Saw it and it was excellent and is basically how corrupt the federal government is

Really good.

Was Bulger overrated as a crime boss? I don't doubt his violence, but my Internet reading has brought me to the opinion that he would muscle his way into rackets, kill a few people, and screw up whatever operation he got into by being too incompetent to run it right. Was he really a sharp business guy or just a psycho?

I dont think he was overrated. He made a lot of money and held rackets. He was violent and a bit of a psycho, but Jesus the famous Irish gangsters were. Jimmy Conway, Bugs Moran, Tommy Garland, Danny Greene, and most of the Westies.

Merlino,

I got the same reaction from it and I found it to be pretty accurate with Bulger's history as well.

Was it like the other Bulger documentaries or does it have some new stuff or just flat out directed better than the others? Just wondering if it's worth spending the money on.

I was pissed the first 5-10 minutes because it seemed like it was just going to be a court thing with transcripts and then BOOM, it is worth the $7 I spent on it. Supposedly White Bulger is on there talking to his lawyer through recorded conversations, it is really good and it is unbelievable how corrupt and inept at times the federal government can be. Kevin Weaks I believe had best quote, "If you are going to hang around wiseguys or mobsters, you might end up like they do." I have comcast and it was a 2 day rental and I watched it twice

Ok thanks. Believe I'll watch it since I'm a fan of this story. I know on the preview I seen it showed his lawyer being interviewed and he did have Whitey on the phone so I knew about that.

Have you ever read Weeks book? It wasn't too bad either.

He was all muscle. He taxed everyone in south boston and in some other areas he held sway. I don't think he did much running of anything in terms of day to day business.

You guys are fucking soft if you believe whitey didnt run the rackets, early on he had all the typical rackets, extortion, loansharking, bookmaking, robbing banks when he first started, the race fix sceme with the rest of Winter Hill. Pinball machines all over greater boston. He had stakes in bars, clubs. As he became boss he turned to extortion, shakedowns of more than half the criminals around here. Ran a drug empire, and the rest of the crew were still involved in all the mob rackets. Ive never met an incompetent man who made more than 50 million as a crime boss, and a guy who did most of his hits himself, thats someone who knows and believes in what he was doing. Yes he was a very smart business man, you guys just go on thinking he only held sway in Southie. We dont like the man up here or his fucking brother Billy, but you cant deny the fact he was an all powerful money making boss. The guy was on the run for 16yrs, he must have been doing something right to live a life on the lam for so long. You guys obviously dont know shit about how it was in Boston. Howie Winter owed the Italians 250,000 which Bulger and Flemmi inherited. Did they pay that debt, nope, did the Italians try any attempts at killing them, nope. You can try to say they kept them alive cause they wanted their money, but they never ever got it and Whitey and Flemmi basically told them guys you arent getting paid and the all mighty Italians had nothing to say or do about it. And your trying to say he was not powerful. If that happened in New York, the people would have got whacked without a doubt, but Winter Hill became all the more stronger while oweing the North End all that money.

this will be a good doc just cause they got whitey on the phone telling his side of the trial. I still in the belief he didn't knowing think he was a fbi informant like greg scarpa or flemmi who was one in the early 60tys. think he paid all those crooks in the boston fbi office. he never told on his good friends joe russo.

I think it's weird he almost always did the murders himself or with Flemmi, only occasionaly sent Martorano. What was the rest of the gang for? Were there ever any cases when Bulger ordered a murder, wasn't near the crime scene and it wasn't carried out by Martorano or Flemmi but somebody else?

He never did them by himself, he always usually had Flemmi, but there was an inner circle of guys from the gang he did hits with.

As for Whitey being on the run for sixteen years, one gets the feeling that the FBI weren't exactly falling all over themselves to find him.

Yes Pmac, Whitey never mention the great late Joe Russo... Yes ville they did inherit the 250,000 from Howie Winter and never paid it back....The race fixing was never theirs, it was fat rat tony ciulla scheme...he was the master fixer with the jockeys and vegas bettors and etc.. The split was 50 howie winter and the other 50 went to the jockeys, so they had little minor roles like the rest of the gang...Whitey and flemmi was killers and dangerous yes, but the most dangerous was Joe Mcdonald and jimmy simms...Joe macdonald a ww2 vet, pure killer, was a tough mean bastard ...when he went to jail and they sent him fazools, he sent the money back saying he had three free meals and free clothes what the fuck he need money for and jimmy Simms was about torture and disposal...If you knew anything you know Flemmi once said, "If these guys turn on us we need A fucking Army for those two crazy fucks " Simms dismembered people for a hobby so Whitey was never the big man UNTIL after Howie and the rest of the crew went away on race case....He wasnt even the man in southie until the 70's when squared away the beef with Pat Nee and joined Winter Hill to give him backing against King and the mcgonagle brothers so technically, he got ran out of southie to even be able to conquer southie, but he never did alone and History proves that....Whitey was smart, he extorted weak drug dealers and bookies with threat and the reputation of the Hill as a leverage... He didnt pay the money he owned to North End but he paid the interest and some... He was smart but not smarter than Jerry. Jerry was one of the smartest ever..Multi milllionare who had Barnie Madoff on his payroll with all types of legal ventures...He was doing white collar before it was thought of by gangsters...He knew if he killed Whitey, there was no real man to take over the Hill and collect from all the other bookies the Hill once controlled and he would lose that extra money...He would lose the interest on the debt, the weekly payments from the ongoing payments and etc so it wasnt because they couldnt but becuase he was smart...remember he said he dont need tough gangster he needs SMART tough gangsters..

Look at what my quote saids ... Those was Jerry's words caught on the wire.. If they go to war with the hill he has Russo and the maverick boys who had the likes of carrozza, spunky, ralph rossetti, rizzi sr, Isabella,giso,simone ralph scarpa, and bunch of bad motherfuckers....All killers, Yea the Hill had Mcdonald, simms, bulger Martorano, Nee flemmi but remember that was one crew I mentioned never mind Danny Anguilo crew of Ferrara, zannino, tortora, gambale, joe black,and bunch more so it was never about who had more killers but what was more benficial...to kill them or not to kill them...Yea Whitey rose after Howie went down, after he became informant,after he made peace with Southie and NEE, He ratted his competition or killed them only by the work of Connolly NOT WHITEY, Even martorano, Flemmi and Salemme held more respect because they lived through that crazy gang war, Whitey was not even trying to get involved because he was getting pushed around in southie, So the the facts are the facts...YES HE DIDNT PAY THE DEBT, YES HE KILLED, YES HE WAS WISE DURING HIS TENURE GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY AND RESOURCES BUT HE WAS NEVER THE MAN, NEVER WAS HE THE KING OF THE THRONE OF HIS PEERS ONLY BY HIS FOLLOWERS SUCH AS WEEKS, SHEA, MCKENZIE, HOGAN AND OTHER YOUNG KIDS WHO LOOKED UP TO HIM....NEVER BY HIS PEERS AND THATS A FACT

DID I FORGET TO MENTION HE TOUCHED BOYS AND FLEMMI ALMOST KILLED HIM FOR THAT...

Joe come on buddy thats just a bold face lie that he touched little boys and Flemmi almost killed him for it. No basis for any of that except Howie Carr saying he was a pedophile and flemmi stating he was a pedophile against girls, when in reality it was Flemmi who was fucking all the underage girls. Only allegations against Whitey was from that fake lying motherfucker McKenzie saying they use to watch Whitey through a two way mirror at one of the hangouts banging the Catholic school high school girls. Which bears no truth cause everything Mckenzie said he did or worked for Bulger were complete made up stories. And you really believe Anguilo had more killers, its a known fact the Hill had them beat in that aspect. The Hill had guys from Somerville, Charlestown, Dorchester, Southie, Medford, Cambridge, they had an army of killers bigger than the North End. Im not talking Whiteys generatiom, im saying during Buddies and Howies time at the top. Numerous reports have been stated that what the Hill had were hunters who would head out looking for their mark and not stop till they found the target and the Italians would wait on Hanover street for their target to happen to show up at no determined time. How many bodies dropped during the Irish gang, upwards of 60, compare that to all the hits they did for business or whatever the reason called for and the Hill surpases the amount of people killed by Anguilo and company by a large margin. Joe Mac had more clout and respect than most of the fellas in the North End. You got Ray Sr on wiretap praising these guys and saying how much admiration and respect he had for Buddy and Howie who made biweekly trips to federal hill to discuss business and get together as friends. Then you got the old man on wiretap saying he dont give a shit about Anguilo and doesnt respect him at all. I think it was Butchie Morreti who got in a beef with Anguilo and Moretti went to Ray for permission to kill Anguilo and Ray told him to try to settle it, but if Anguilo gives him anymore shit, he could kill him and there would be no repercussions. And you say the Hill had little to do with the race fixing sceme, that's false also. Fat Tony had been fixing races all over Jersey and the east coast yes, but had no back up and couldnt put in the type of action they were betting with the bookies the Hill set up to take huge hits. 23 members of Winter Hill were indicted and it went down as a mulimillion dollar racket. And the Hill got most of that money, fat tony got a piece of it. He needed the Hill much more than they needed him for that racket.

Kids please don't accept candy from this man,

ITS BAD CANDY!!!! Lol

I consider whitey lucky though, 11 years free on the run before he was caught

He had pretty much an unparalleled run as the king of a major city for 25 years or so. Even before he was at the top of the food chain he was a key guy too so who's really to say how long. He made millions and millions of dollars by literally taking a piece of everything and then some. He had the FBI under his thumb while he was involved in like 20 murders, his right hand man was involved in something like another separate 20 murders. Then you got Martorano too killing for him. He went on the run for 16 years and still had a million left on him and an arsenal. He is understated in my opinion

Great post, I couldn't have said it better. Also the Italians wanted to make
Flemmi but he balked, that speaks volumes in itself. We're talking about the prime of an era with Patriarca and a Flemmi is not interested

Great point Vegas, i forgot to add that. Thanks, there's plenty more that proves they ran the rackets and shook down the big guys invloved in drug dealing, bookmaking and whatever other crimes, not the weak dealers and bookies like Joe Russo stated. They were also invloved in real estate, houses, bars, restaurants. Embezzling Wheelers company for millions, and other white collar crimes so no Joe Russo, Anguilo was not the only one involved in white collar scams. Flemmi was supposed to get indicted for fraud during the late 80s, but only his real estate agent took the hit. And i state this as a 100% fact Mr. Angulio barely ever met face to face with Ray Sr, Howie and Buddy use to dine out with Partriarca on a regular basis, so you tell me who Ray Sr. felt were the real gangsters and who wasn't

He touched little boys and girls thats a known fact! You go to southie and ask real people like Nee, Donhaue, Hogan they will tell you thats what he did.There is no dispute. Im not talking what the media this is what the streets know. Yes during Buddy and Howie tenure, there was a ton of blood shed enough to fill four olympic pools, but that was a war going on. So many people was killed innocent, some guilty by association, thieves, so it wasnt all gangsters not even all jews,irish or italians, four was blacks and if it was all gangsters that number wouldve been no higher than 20-30 FACT. With Anguilo, he called moretti a name and Moretti told Ray sr and ray said you shoulve killed him on the spot and gave him permission to do it if it was done again. But that was because Ray never respected Jerry for his gangsterism but respected the shit out of the real killer Danny Anguilo. He respected Jerry for being business savy, not his blunder vehement orders and behavior. He respected Buddy and Howie because they went down there to see him which meant alot to ray sr something Jerry never did and the fact that they was paying him for their action and wiping out the mccaughlin crew, which added more revenue and wider spread of action, business ventures and so forth so Ray sr gave them his support throughout the war. And with flemmi not declining being made because he knew he would get killed if he accepted one way or another. He said it at trial. He declined being made because it was to dangerous and he didnt want that. Shit his brother was made and his brother was worst than Stevie by a mile so that dosent say much not to me maybe others who dont know but to me thats peanuts. But as far as killers go half of the killings during the war was done by North End guys and future made guys so it wasnt all hill people. You had salemme who killed like a dozen people future boss, you had flemmi's brother, the bear with another dozen,made guy, you had barboza with 20 or so, noth end hitman, you had the martorano twins which was connected but not all north end but the other became all north end,future capo, so the main killers was involved predominatly with the north end one way or another thats a fact. And the connected guys dont kill for fun theres rules to this shit....so just going blood thirsty, thats a no no.. And as far white collar, he inhereted again, the wheeler thing. He never made that happen. The triple O's was fat kevin oneil, the garage was georgie kaufmans, the flemmi realtor thing was his brothers thing...They might got a piece of other peoples ventures and scams but never did they have their own. Jerry was a self made business genuis pure fact. And as far as fat tony goes, without him the hill had no race fixing scam and originally they didnt even want to do it period until they realized he a vegas executive who can help him rig the odds, thats why they even got into it...so without fat tony their would be no race fixing scam then there would be no whitey story today... without conolly there would be no whitey because he would have no protection, warning, no information nothing.. And tell me, name one real gangster he controlled, extorted and bossed around ? And dont mention Martorano because he was getting paid for hits and never was under their control..remeber what martorano said...if the wheeler thing didnt go right stevie and whitey was lullaby... at the end of the day he is a rat and glorifing a rat is somewhat sad so regardless of how ingenuis he was and how much he targeted the weak and made a fortune, he was a rat, snitch, singing canarie, tattle tale and all the above

Shea said when got to milan and hooked up with ray jr, ray told him off the back whitey put thm all in there.. It was a matter of time before the world found out...He is nothing but a intersting story of how one can succeed with feds on speed dial.. nothing more

Yea they really told that to Red Shea too, come on buddy your shit is all fucked, if they had any inclination about Whitey ratting them out he would have been dead just like any other rat that they knew of and was still running the streets. Your giving common knowledge and the semi streets stories you heard second hand. You always say you didnt know shit about the Winter Hill Gang except Joe Mac, so you must have been doing some reading to see what you could gather about Winter Hill. Your fucking crazy if you think Jimmy Flemmi was a made guy, he was a sadistic kill crazy heroin addict, he never even got offered to get made. Only guys who worked for the Hill that got asked to be made was Stevie, Cadillac and Jimmy Martorano. Jonny didnt get asked to be made, he made it clear from the beginning he was Winter Hill to the bone. And half the killings during the gang war were done by the North End, they killed 4 guys cause they knew the feds would chalk it up as victims of the gang war. And i will ask those fellas you mentioned if whitey diddled little boys and girls, but dont you think if they knew he was a pedophile they would kill him as quick as they could. Cause your saying everyone knew, you really think they would work for bulger if they knew that about him. And connected guys cant kill without permission from the Italians, well Winter Hill killed whoever they pleased and never had to get permission cause they were their own gang. And what do you think gangsters do, they take shit over and run rackets, both the Italians and Winter Hill. Your just fucking reaching with your comments. And Barboza did hits for the North End, he wasnt just a hit man for the Italians, he would have sided with Buddy and the Hill on any matter and would have done anything Buddy asked him to. Martorano never got paid for hits, he did them because he felt he was protecting his gang and friends. Some of your information is fucking horse shit brother.

Man you talk about horse shit,My knowledge may be second hand but its from people that are known, involved people yous mention on this here site. Martorano testified that he got paid for the hits while he was the lam. The bear was a made guy from years ago look it up and ask around and johnny never made nothing clear, he was on the run while his brother got in deep. North end gave the hill their blessings and gave their hitmen the ok to be involved in the war. Everyone knows barboza was all ray sr's guy and the rest of the north end. Barboza said it himself. Everyone knows whitey touched both girls and boys. Flemmi testifies to that so did kevin weeks. All this your proclaiming their is no proof, evidence and everything Im saying is facts with testimony, statements,quotes and all over the internet. These people testified to these things. Its known. You talking about reaching, you made yourself real creditless saying the bear wasnt made. That right there makes me really believe what do you really know. Anybody who knows something can tell you he was made, that barboza' was the families man and the war key killers, was in one way or another, connected deep with the north end and after all it was an irish war....All in all, i dont have time for the back and forth because you just made me realize how much you really DONT know nothing at all as you proclaim and make it seem esp vou.. Just saying Shea wasnt told that in Milan when he not only said that in his book, but telling everyone in local 25 this and more. They made of not killed him when they shouldve but they knew he was no good... So if you REALLY knew Shea you wouldnt even dispute it knowing its all facts. I can make a few calls and hook up with NEE or shea.. I can easily talk to spunky no phone calls needed..I see vinny f damn near daily and always have a good laugh and speaks to me about dong the right thing....everyone knows my old man and uncle who they are and once was so I can swindle around big timers all day if I chose to and even get involved deep if I wanted too.. I dont know about you but my primary source is the streets baby not the media and google...