When exactly did the Luciano family begin?

I'm a little unsure about the specifics of that transition.

Story has it that Maranzano promised to make Lucky his underboss after taking out Masseria. Yet whenever the original 5 families are discussed, The Luciano family is listed as one of them while along with the Maranzano family.

When exactly did Luciano go from Maranzano's underboss to the head of the Luciano amily? Or did Luciano never actually become Maranzano's underboss and instead Maranzano changed plans and had him take over the Masseria family?

As soon as Maranzano was dead. It is possible Luciano was the behind scenes boss with Maranzano thinking he had everyone's backing.

So then it is technically incorrect for historians to claim the original 5 families were Mangano, Gagliano, Luciano, Profaci and Maranzano? It would have to be The Masseria Family over Luciano's?

Either The Luciano Family and The Maranzano never existed together or Luciano became boss of his own family while Maranzano was still alive.

It depends on what historic account we go by, Bonanno may have contradicted others, and so forth. I think there is no doubt Luciano definitely was the boss after Maranzano, I don't think that was ever disputed. As for the family names that started after Valachi testified. The is why the family was called The Genovese Family. They used the names of whoever was boss in 1963.

Luciano was boss after Maranzano's death that we know for sure but this really only leaves us with 2 possible options....

#1. Either the original 5 families is wrong.

#2. The Luciano family began while Maranzano was alive.

I'm inclined to think it's #2 but that goes back to my original question, if Luciano did break away from Maranzano while he was still alive, when and what were the circumstances around it?

Since Maranzano decided to have him killed, I believe at some point between Maranzano taking over and his death, Luciano must have left Maranzano and started his own family without Maranzano's blessing and if that's the case, we know nothing about that aspect and there's a gap in mafia history.

Maranzano rewarded Luciano for his help in arranging Masseria's assassination by putting him in charge of Masseria's.borgata. Then Maranzano made his fatal mistake: he declared himself capo di tutti capi, with Luciano and the heads of the other families reporting to him, After Luciano arranged for Maranzano's assassination, he and the other borgata chiefs became Dons of their families.

Correct Turnbull. Nicely worded.

Before the Castellammarese War took place between 1929-1931, the power stature and "lineup" of Families in NYC was largely as follows;

Masseria (Genovese) Family; Boss - Giuseppe Masseria, Underboss - Giuseppe Morello (later Charles Luciano)
Maranzano (Bonanno) Family; Boss - Salvatore Maranzano, future Underboss - Giuseppe Bonanno [Cola Schiro technically was boss at one time, but he was quickly pushed aside and dismissed in favor of Maranzano as the conflict with Masseria escalated, before the actual war.]
D'Aquilla (Gambino) Family; Boss - Salvatore D'Aquilla,
Reina (Lucchese) Family; Boss - Gaetano Reina, Underboss - Gaetano Gagliano
DiBella (Colombo) Family; Boss - Salvatore DiBella, Underboss - Giuseppe Profaci [this particular borgata also saw Giuseppe Peraino and several others as early leaders so the exact chronology of succession is a bit muddy]

But remember too that others played significant roles such as Joe Pinzolo up in Harlem, Michael Abbatemarco in Brooklyn, Giuseppe Traina of Lower Manhattan, etc., etc. There were many shiftings of alliances that later helped cause, and divide, the divisions of power in NYC, and by extension the entire country, both before (and during) the war.
---
And as Turnbulll stated, after Luciano agreed to kill Masseria, ending the war. Soon Maranzano attempted a power play which in turn made the younger members kill him too. Thereafter the Commission was formed to provide a more stable and equitable division of power and negotiation between the families. Ultimately the Five Families looked something like this in 1931-32;

Luciano Family; Boss - Salvatore Luciano, Underboss - Vito Genovese
Bonanno Family; Boss - Joseph Bonanno, Underboss - Frank Garofalo
Mangano Family; Boss - Vincent Mangano, Underboss; Frank Scalici (later Albert Anastasia)
Gagliano Family; Boss - Gaetano Gagliano, Underboss - Gaetano Lucchese
Profaci Family; Boss - Giuseppe Profaci, Underboss (changed several times, but initially possibly Salvatore Profaci, who later moved to the consigliere position)

Luciano wasn't Maranzano's underboss, he was a captain under Masseria. The all already existed by the 1920s. The idea that they were formed after the war is a myth that stems from Valachi's misunderstanding of what was going on around him.

At the start of the war, the bosses were:

Nicola Schiro
Joseph Profaci (recently taken over from Salvatore DiBella)
Alfred Mineo (replaced the murdered Salvatore D'Aquila)
Joseph Masseria (also capo dei capi)
Gaetano Reina

Following Masseria's murder, the bosses were:

Salvatore Maranzano (also capo dei capi, took over from Schiro after he fled)
Joseph Profaci
Frank Scalise (replaced Mineo following his murder)
Charles Luciano (replaced Masseria)
Thomas Gagliano (replaced the murdered Joseph Pinzolo, who briefly took over from Reina)

Then following Maranzano's murder, Bonanno replaced him as boss of that family and Mangano replaced Scalise as boss.

Thats pretty correct Chin. Good breakdown.
But I do believe that Joe Profaci was only named boss after the war. I don't think he was yet "there" during the war.
Manfredi Mineo and Ferrigno were both administration members, hence their later double assassination (But I'm not sure was superior in rank). But you may be right there. And you're correct about Scalici, in fact he was boss "twice," and both times stepped down in favor of replacements.
If memory serves me "The Clutch Hand" Morello was always underboss to Masseria, not the other way around. I think "Joe the Boss" always led.
I view Joe Pinzolo as a "puppet" as I had stated above, who Masseria "attempted" to install as boss but who the former Reina Family rejected and quickly killed, allowing Gagliano and Lucchese to step up into power. But you are correct to say that Gaetano Reina was truly the boss of this group until Masseria had him murdered in favor of his puppet Pinzolo.

Your assessment is pretty spot on, especially considering all these events took place nearly a century ago. Bravo!

And you are also correct to state that these families were NOT formed after the war. The NYC families were firmly in place many years before the Castellammarese War.

Are you sure Maranzano didn't proclaim himself the boss of bosses immediately after Masseria's killing and his fatal mistake was the the arrogance and greed he displayed from that point on?

Masseria was assassinated on April 15, 1931. Maranzano was assassinated on Sept. 10 of that year. I wasn't able to find a date for the meeting in Wappingers Fall, NY, where Maranzano declared himself capo di tutti capi, but I have to assume it was very soon after Masseria was hit, lest the heads of other borgatas start getting ideas of independence from Maranzano. As for arrogance:and greed: the very idea of him declaring himself capo di tutti capi over such a band of cutthroats and demanding monthly tribures was in itself supremely arrogant and greedy; plus, he had long had an unpleasant habit of bragging about his literacy in Latin and Greek, quoting Cicero in the original, and comparing himself to Julius Caesar. Two other points:

--Luciano's bosom buddy Meyer Lansky arranged both assassinations. The Masseria hit is said to have been carried out by Bugsy Siegel, Joe Adonis and Albert Anastasia. The Maranzano hit was led by Samuel (Red) Levine.
--Luciano earned the nickname "Lucky" allegedly because he survived kidnapping and torture by Maranzano's men to coerce him into betraying his boss, Masseria. I think it was because Maranzano had hired Vincent (Mad Dog) Coll, a free-lance Irish killer, to whack Luciano. Supposedly Coll was heading to Maranzano's office for his last instructions when Levine and his killlers whacked Maranzano.

Everything you said here is, (or sounds) spot on EXCEPT for one thing.... I hear differing accounts but none that definitively pointing to Maranzano as being behind the kidnapping and torture of Luciano, nonetheless to get him to betray Masseria. I've heard it possibly being the result of other rivals, possibly the police etc. Also many accounts say Luciano was a willing participant in the betrayal of Masseria and had made an agreement with Maranzano that his betrayal would result in a promotion.

How can we be sure Maranzano orchestrated his kidnapping?

Also the kidnapping and beating of Luciano was in 1929 and Masseria was killed in 1931, if Maranzano was behind the kidnapping which was done in order to scare him into betraying Masseria, then why did it take Luciano 2 years to agree to it?

This is a great thread as I'm incredibly unfamiliar with the very early days LCN. My knowledge on Masseria and Maranzano is pretty much limited to me seeing them portrayed in Boardwalk Empire, which while a great show, is pretty loose with the facts. Anyway, my question is about the forming of the commission. When it was formed was it just the NY 5 families with families like Chicago, Philly, etc added later on? What was the original?

Let's not forget the old story of Masseria's death that turned out to be a fable. It was Luciano playing cards with him moment before his death, then saying he had to use the bathroom. That is when the killers walked in and killed Masseria. It was written in book and portrayed in multiple movies. Then a researcher looked at the reports, it turned out Luciano was not even there in that restaurant. Masseria was meeting with other men. I think they left before he was shot. None of them were Luciano, who was no where near the scene. Luciano may have known it was going to happen, or he found out after and had to go along till the time was right. That story of Luciano and the card game with Masseria was repeated over and over for 80 years till it was exposed as fake.

I can't be sure of anything because gangsters aren't the types to leave their collected letters and papers to college and university libraries for people like us to peruse. And even if they did, they're all a bunch of pathological liars. Selwyn Raab, in his book, "The Five Families," says Luciano approached Maranzano and makes no mention of kidnapping and torture. Several other sources support the latter view, saying that Luciano got his facial scar and droopy eye as a consequence of that torture. Raab says Luciano was present at the luncheon where Masseria was killed, but who knows? No witnesses came forward (surprise, surprise).

The Orginal was Bonanno, Gagliano, Luciano, Mangano, and Profaci for NYC, with Buffalo. A month later was Chicago, they were offered it at the beginning, but had to mold it over as they were unsure if NYC was still in turmoil or not. After Maranzano, it was Angelo Caruso till the formation of the Commission then Bonanno was boss. 7 families until 1951, then it was Pittsburgh, and Cleveland added to it. After 1956, Pittsburgh and Cleveland were no longer on the Commission, Pittsburgh Amato withdrew, unknown why Cleveland was knocked off. In 1959 when things settled in NYC, Detroit and Philadelphia were added.

Man, what a great response. Appreciate it, Giacomo. At the time, in your opinion who was the representative for Chicago? Ricca? Nitti?

There's an article out there somewhere that disputes all of the"Lucky" bullshit. 1: There's a pic of him with sunglasses and a t-shirt with his right forearm exposed with tattoos. One saying lucky from 1913. You can't see it in the pic but it is documented. I think you can see the stars or Jack. 2: It wasn't a mob beating that almost took his life, it was a cop beating for something he did to a cops daughter. This is old news fellas.

There's the pic with Ricca, Luciano, and Lansky. Read Toodoped's article on Ricca. On this forum. Good stuff.

Ticca and Accardo were the best. Ricca got his prison term overturned by a senator. Accardo spent less time in jail that I spend in the bathroom every morning. FOR DECADES! Al Capone ruled during prohibition, Nitti took over, got pinched for the Hollywood nonsense and was coerced to take the pinch by the two previously mentioned. Nitti blows his brains out, Ricca goes to prison in place. Gets out and they blow the rat up in front of his house. I'm from long Island, but Chicago had their shit together.

No doubt about that brother. I'll give Toodoped's article a read.

Correction. Not Cleveland, it was the Los Angeles family until Jack Dragna died in 1956. Magaddino passed away in 1974, Zerilli passed away in 1976 and after that Bruno kept his seat but the Commission was setup differently. Chicago and New York did talk and had their Commission, but New York and Chicago had what I would call a sub Commission in there respected territories. Meaning families that did not have a seat on the national board did have seats with the families that did. After Appalachian, Chicago represented everything west of the Mississippi and New York represented Atlantic to Ohio.

Bonanno was not one of the original 5, this has been proven. Also how could Maranzano have been credited as organizing the 5 families without naming his own family in one of the 5? That could only be viable if you subscribe to the theory that Maranzano never created the 5 families to begin with and they weren't in place until after his death.

Interesting. Sometimes you can't get the real story about how historical.figures got their nicknames.

Most of what I've read points to Lucky's kidnapping as being some sort of crooked cop matter. The theory that Maranzano was behind it just seems illogical, considering that Lucky never turned on Masseria afterwards which was the supposed goal of the kidnapping and it's hard to fathom Lucky joining forces with a man who nearly killed him and left him disfigured.

I was talking about the Commission. If you read the post instead of skimming it, you would have notice I said who was in between Maranzano and Bonanno.
The Morello family was split when Masseria became boss. This family would be known as the Genovese and Lucchese families today.
D'Aquila family would absorb the Mineo family. This family would be known as the Gambino family.
The Dibella family would be known as the Colombo family.
The DiGaetano family would be known as the Bonanno family.
The Bronx, Brooklyn, and Manhattan Camorra would be absorbed into the Genovese, Gambino and Lucchese families after the war in 1918. While others would join Frank Yale.
Yale, mainly a Calabrian gang would be absorbed into the other families when Frankie Yale was killed, notably the Genovese, Gambino and Colombo families taking the most members.
A unknown Calabrian gang of East Harlem and the Bronx would join the Genovese and Lucchese family.
A small Agrigento gang operating in Manhattan and Brooklyn, its members would join the Genovese, Gambino and Bonanno families.
We talk about the Castellammare war, but 1922 was perhaps the biggest year for the New York Italian gangs.
Lupo who split from Morello and in turn D'Aquila would take over.

Marranzano was not behind Luciano's kidnapping, Luciano and Masseria would not have stood for it.

Wasn't Salvatore D'Aquilla, killed earlier than 1929-31?

I agree, seems implausible and I can't imagine Lucky partnering with Maranzano after that. Lucky wasn't desperate enough to join the man who almost killed him.

Gents thank you for the spirited discussion, this was partly due to me wanting to clarify details for a Maranzano video that I just completed but also partly just out of interest and curiosity. I learned some related things that I didn't know beforehand, good stuff!