Like I said most of these guys were rats. At best they were telling on they’re enemies and people think Mike Lancelotti couldn’t be a rat when it’s so obvious if you take the blinders off I’m sure Persico was briefly an informant around 71 when he probably wanted to rid himself of competition to the bosses throne and be able to install some like Tom Debella until he got out This could be a game changer for the Colombo Family in general...will Andy Russo be demoted and someone like a Joseph Baudanza become the boss?
No way, he spent most of his adult life in prison, and he was not allowed out to die at home when deathly ill. Plus they need release a real informants name, FOIA or not.
If this isn't the biggest bullshit claim I've ever heard in my life. Junior spent more time in prison than just about anyone. He was a lion of a man who would do a 1000 years for his people standing on his head. I want this thread deleted!!!
You guys should write to Vic Orena and complain..how dare he post classified documents of carmines ratting to the feds...like doing that 60mins interview that carmine did...guess John Gotti was right about Carmine all those years..... he also admitted the mob existed during the commission trial...this isn’t exactly a stretch that he would rat on his enemies so he could take control of the family....
If it's true, and it looks like it is, it shouldn't surprise anyone. I've always suspected certain top bosses of being top echelons if they appeared themselves to have a narcotics operation, however secret or discreet. Why? Because everyone knows "the G" is behind most if not all of the top drug dealers. Therefore any boss, no matter how legendary, if he appeared to have any narcotics connection, even if it was off shored and outsourced to foreign criminal conspiracies and groups in other countries, that boss likely received immunity from the CIA. You can be a top echelon that the police or DEA don't even know about, it's just that when they go to arrest you, someone always interferes who has higher jurisdiction. I have no proof, but do I believe Carmine Persico was a drug dealer, ultimately? Yes.
If it's true, and it looks like it is, it shouldn't surprise anyone. I've always suspected certain top bosses of being top echelons if they appeared themselves to have a narcotics operation, however secret or discreet. Why? Because everyone knows "the G" is behind most if not all of the top drug dealers. Therefore any boss, no matter how legendary, if he appeared to have any narcotics connection, even if it was off shored and outsourced to foreign criminal conspiracies and groups in other countries, that boss likely received immunity from the CIA. You can be a top echelon that the police or DEA don't even know about, it's just that when they go to arrest you, someone always interferes who has higher jurisdiction. I have no proof, but do I believe Carmine Persico was a drug dealer, ultimately? Yes.
Alfa, which bosses do you suspect? Perscio, Genovese, Castellano, Anastasia, and John Ormento, to name a few were all either going to prison for life or had cases and investigations pending. They even framed Genovese in his second conviction. Succeeding bosses in a few examples were also sent away:Gotti, for the Gambino's, Cantena , Salerno and Tieri on the Genovese side, and Carmine Trumanti for the Lucheses. Do you mean bosses in other cites, since all my examples were New Yorkers, or do you mean ones I left out? Perscio did most of the last 50 years of his life in prison, Scarpa (A definite rat) was constantly left alone till the very end.
No way The Snake was a rat, rats don't get 100 years in prison unless they fuck up in their cooperation agreement like Gaspipe did. Posts like this are created solely for shock value. If you want attention that your mommy never gave you, please find a better way.
ITS OBVIOUS HE WAS A RAT IN 71 so he could move to the top of the Colombo family which he did soon after. I’m sure he wasn’t a rat for decades he wouldn’t have done time but all these guys at best rat on they’re enemies from time to time or to eliminate the competition which is what he did here probably ratting on Colombo so he could take over and resolve his highjacking case in a favorable way to himself....
There was tons of people giving information on Colombo and he never went to jail. Including Greg Scarpa Sr and others. The fbi was heavy in trying to make a case against Colombo at that time....
Now go back into your moms basement, you fucking little child....
yes carmine persico was informant.. and im also the 5 player for the Beatles........you lowlives you,, one cant be a infromant and spend more than half of if his life in atlanta USP, lewisburg USP, and his last two stints were in marion usp, lompoc usp, and butner fci......im amaze where he found time to have kids,,,,,,and as for harry ricconbe was he rat yes he was on the begign of his life ,,,BUT he was nver cosa nostra,,,,, he was TOUGH CIVILIAN thas all........ he was no BOSS OF A FAMILY
Some of the same people in denial here were just as stunned when they found out Whitey Bulger was a Rat, so don't be so sure "The Snake" wasn't. There isn't anything I imagine he wouldn't do to keep his family and himself in charge.
The papers look doctored to me. Plus more than a dozen top, top bosses are listed there as well. If he is a rat, then what are you saying? All the rest of them were rats also?
It doesn't make sense. Anything is possible in life. Anything!
But put two and two together and use your heads. Junior spent 50 years in prison. More than that, he beloved son Allie is currently doing life himself. If Persico had been a rat, don't you think he would have made sure he and his son (and his cousins Andy and nephews), didn't get destroyed like that?
Otherwise what did he gain from his so-called' cooperation agreement?
It's a shot in the dark from Orena and his lawyers to get some relief from his sentence. But I've seen those documents and I can tell you that they DO NOT clearly explain or delineate who is, and who isn't, an informer on those pages. And by the way, each CI has their own special code as you know. The same 'exact' code is listed next to each and every name on that list.
So it looks to me as though there was one informer who was providing info on all those named on the pages, Persico included.
Of course it's fucking doctored. Vic Orena ought to be ashamed of himself. I've always had tremendous respect for Vic, but now all that is gone. What a disgusting human being.
Hahahaha now the documents are doctored and the Govt wouldn’t able to know or verify or tell if they were doctored or not? Come on let’s use common sense...Carmine ratted to make sure he could rid himself of his enimies. No different than the other way which is murdering them...these guys all rat at one time or another even if it’s just once to remove themselves of the competition.... these guys are murderers, only an idiot truly believes it’s ok to murder your enemy’s and rob and steal from them but if you tell on them your a scumbag. That’s rhetoric to brainwash morons and little kids
Did you just say that all of these guys rat at one time or another? Only someone who is blinded by hatred for these guys would say something so crazy. You're not being logical. Stop slandering good people because you hate the mafia so much. You probably would explode in your pants if it came out that John Gotti Sr was a rat (which he of course wasn't)
But just because it fits a narrative that you seek to push that all mob guys are rats and are no good doesn't make it so. You cannot fit a square peg in a triangle hole no matter how hard you may try (or desire to make it so).
If and when I see 'real' irrefutable evidence that Persico was a rat I will be the first one to say so. But THIS is not evidence. Plain and simple.
In fact, all it shows is that one particular "TE" informant was providing info on all those named on that FBI paper.
Joseph Laratro John Oddo Salvatore Mussachio Joseph Lucchese Joseph Rosato Paul Castellano James Failla etc etc........the list is never-ending with all of them being capos or higher.
It simply does not hold water!
Now. If the redacted parts of these so-called rat lists were clear to read and it confirmed the info, then it is what it is. But those redacted parts may be even more vindicating to them.
Without being bias, the paper does NOT clearly state or explain what is being stated on that page. It just has a lot of top names. (1) TE informer code (NOT 12-18 to match each name) and really nothing else. So what can anyone really decipher from that? Not much!
It seems to me that the one particular TE code is spilling the beans on every other name on that list. (including spilling on Persico)
The informant number is the same next to each individual. Informants are given unique identifiers. So if all of these guys were informants, would they all be given the same identifier? Or could it be that this particular informant "3461-C-TE" is just giving information on the individuals listed?
The informant number is the same next to each individual. Informants are given unique identifiers. So if all of these guys were informants, would they all be given the same identifier? Or could it be that this particular informant "3461-C-TE" is just giving information on the individuals listed?
It was 1 single informant (obviously high level) who was able to provide info on each of those named individuals. Period! And Persico was only one of many he had info on.
It's clear as a bell on those documents. Why some people try and create sensationalism and run with all these bullshit statements is totally beyond me. (Orena I can understand, he's trying to get out of jail and will BS on anything that he thinks serves his purpose). But the rest of you? Come on now.
Stay on track fellas. It's better that way (for all the legit people who truly wanna glean real knowledge of OC) and not BS
Carmine Persico was going on the show “60minutes†John Gotti always called Persico a rat and Persico himself admitted the existence of the Mob at the Comission trial Did Carmine Persico frame Sonny Franzese? Did Carmine Persico with help from the FBI hit Joe Colombo?
Did Carmine Persico start the Chicago fire? Did Carmine Persico conspire to hit JFK?
He either IS, or ISN'T, an informer. But based upon these documents it absolutely DOES NOT PROVE, or even allure to, the fact that Persico may have been a rat.
And THAT'S the unvarnished truth!
The rest of it is all widow dressing to sell newspapers, and try and get a judge to release vic
The false bubble has burst. And there's a lot of unhappy hood hating
A guy might be a stone gangster. He might even be one helluva bad guy. A murdering and heartless, ice cold hood. But that doesn't make him a rat or informer. Like him. Hate him. Thats your choice and you are free to choose however you like. After all, it is a free country.
But at least give the guy his due for being a standup guy! He did serve 50 big ones behind bars. That should count for something no?
He could have turned rodent and saved himself a half-century of heartbreak, for him and his family. But he did not!
David Schoen, representing Orena, delivered the bombshell Brooklyn Federal Court filing — including a 1971 law enforcement document identifying Persico as a member of the FBI’s “Top Echelon Informant Program.†The 50-year-old paperwork was revealed through a Freedom of Information lawsuit filed against the Justice Department. Schoen said he hesitated to go public with the charge until doing some digging to verify the shocking story. “Independently of this document, two lawyers who represented Mr. Persico in the past have said that they had solid reason to believe that this information is accurate, as did another cooperating witness who gave examples that he believed proved the point,†Schoen wrote in a Friday email to defense lawyer Anthony DiPietro. “I would never have filed such a document without having taken these steps.†In another email, Schoen said he heard from a former Colombo associate declaring “the assertion is 100% right.†The mobster was a cooperating witness who testified against two of Schoen’s clients. “I met with the DOJ inspector General and two FBI agents. ... All agreed that the document reflected exactly what it has been represented to reflect,†he said. “I avoided filing this document for quite some time because of the seriousness of it and the implications.â€
David Schoen, representing Orena, delivered the bombshell Brooklyn Federal Court filing — including a 1971 law enforcement document identifying Persico as a member of the FBI’s “Top Echelon Informant Program.†The 50-year-old paperwork was revealed through a Freedom of Information lawsuit filed against the Justice Department. Schoen said he hesitated to go public with the charge until doing some digging to verify the shocking story. “Independently of this document, two lawyers who represented Mr. Persico in the past have said that they had solid reason to believe that this information is accurate, as did another cooperating witness who gave examples that he believed proved the point,†Schoen wrote in a Friday email to defense lawyer Anthony DiPietro. “I would never have filed such a document without having taken these steps.†In another email, Schoen said he heard from a former Colombo associate declaring “the assertion is 100% right.†The mobster was a cooperating witness who testified against two of Schoen’s clients. “I met with the DOJ inspector General and two FBI agents. ... All agreed that the document reflected exactly what it has been represented to reflect,†he said. “I avoided filing this document for quite some time because of the seriousness of it and the implications.â€
all trumped up 'generalized info' to try and help vic. A smokescreen of BS. Not unlike thousands of other documents lawyers for (both sides) submit to try and bulldoze a judge. Common practice
But the proof is in the pudding. And there's NO proof! Lisa just posted up those exact same documents so everyone could read them for themselves. They show the EXACT OPPOSITE.
I think most of the guys that made real money informed. How else do you survive in that world? You have to use law enforcement to your advantage. Lucky Luciano ratted on rival drug dealers. The founder of the mob as we know it. Look at what Gambino and Lucchese did to Genovese.
I think most of the guys that made real money informed. How else do you survive in that world? You have to use law enforcement to your advantage. Lucky Luciano ratted on rival drug dealers. The founder of the mob as we know it. Look at what Gambino and Lucchese did to Genovese.
Luciano only gave up his own heroin whereabouts, the never gave up anyone. Gambino and Lucchesse are not the ones who set up Genovese, the FBN did by going to jails and asking anyone with a drug charge to work with them, they got a Spanish man named Cantelopes to say he worked with Genovese. Most bosses wound up in prison, Gambino was constantly harassed by the feds.
The headline itself is all fake, including the nickname that no one really called him, "The Snake." Any crime reporter knows, or should, that his nickname was Junior. It's a big nothing.
He wasn't nicknamed "The Snake" for nothing. Now I can't wait to read all the mob apologists claim BS.
It actually was not his nickname, his real and only nickname was Junior. I think the Snake nickname rumor came from reporters close to Crazy Joe Gallo and his bunch.
This is 100% FAKE NEWS. You can look at the document and see the informant # is ny 3461 which is Greg Scarpas informant #. All this document says that these guys are Colombo Captains according to NY 3461 which is Scarpa. Some idiot just doesn't know how to read an FBI file.
Some of the same people in denial here were just as stunned when they found out Whitey Bulger was a Rat, so don't be so sure "The Snake" wasn't. There isn't anything I imagine he wouldn't do to keep his family and himself in charge.
I don't think anyone was surprised Bulger was a rat, I think rumors of him and Greg Scarpa being rats were around for many of the years they were active. Scarpa had rumors about him in the 1970's, 10 years after he started working with the FBI. Ironically, the man he did a lot of informing on and helped send to prison was Perscio, who stood by him and refused to believe he was a rat. Persico was tough, brave, and fearless----but to put it kindly, he was far from smart. Very far. But a rat, no. way.
I think most of the guys that made real money informed. How else do you survive in that world? You have to use law enforcement to your advantage. Lucky Luciano ratted on rival drug dealers. The founder of the mob as we know it. Look at what Gambino and Lucchese did to Genovese.
That is a complete falsehood about Luciano. COMPLETELY false. It was debunked. A false narrative run by some that was proved false.
And it's one helluva stretch to call everybody rats. WTF? Thats a wild accusation. There are rats who never made one quarter. There are rats who made tons. There are standup guys who starved. And there are standup guys who made millions.
Rats were always in the extreme minority. Nowadays they are still in the extreme minority. The only difference is that proportionately the percentage of rats has increased tremendously.
Remember too that every single (1) rat usually informs on tons of guys. So if you even have ten rats that is a HUGE number who can do infinite damage to the families.
And considering that nowadays we have hundreds of informers between members and associates, it's a staggering number who do massive damage. Even though they are still outnumbered 20-30 to 1. Doesn't matter
This is 100% FAKE NEWS. You can look at the document and see the informant # is ny 3461 which is Greg Scarpas informant #. All this document says that these guys are Colombo Captains according to NY 3461 which is Scarpa. Some idiot just doesn't know how to read an FBI file.
Correct, except for they did not want to read it correctly. Starting with the lying reporter who wrote the story.
I think most of the guys that made real money informed. How else do you survive in that world? You have to use law enforcement to your advantage. Lucky Luciano ratted on rival drug dealers. The founder of the mob as we know it. Look at what Gambino and Lucchese did to Genovese.
Luciano only gave up his own heroin whereabouts, the never gave up anyone. Gambino and Lucchesse are not the ones who set up Genovese, the FBN did by going to jails and asking anyone with a drug charge to work with them, they got a Spanish man named Cantelopes to say he worked with Genovese. Most bosses wound up in prison, Gambino was constantly harassed by the feds.
This is 100% FAKE NEWS. You can look at the document and see the informant # is ny 3461 which is Greg Scarpas informant #. All this document says that these guys are Colombo Captains according to NY 3461 which is Scarpa. Some idiot just doesn't know how to read an FBI file.
This is 100% FAKE NEWS. You can look at the document and see the informant # is ny 3461 which is Greg Scarpas informant #. All this document says that these guys are Colombo Captains according to NY 3461 which is Scarpa. Some idiot just doesn't know how to read an FBI file.
Correct, except for they did not want to read it correctly. Starting with the lying reporter who wrote the story.
This is 100% FAKE NEWS. You can look at the document and see the informant # is ny 3461 which is Greg Scarpas informant #. All this document says that these guys are Colombo Captains according to NY 3461 which is Scarpa. Some idiot just doesn't know how to read an FBI file.
Correct, except for they did not want to read it correctly. Starting with the lying reporter who wrote the story.
They misread it on purpose. Bingo!
That could be the case. Probably a last ditch ploy by Orena's lawyers to get Vic out and the fake news guys(hiding in their basements with masks on while vaccinated) fell for it cause they couldn't reach out to people in the know. And according to my last FOIA, these guys in DC don't know shit about how to read a 50 year old document. I don't even think it's from 71. It looks like a file from the mid 60s
David Schoen, representing Orena, delivered the bombshell Brooklyn Federal Court filing — including a 1971 law enforcement document identifying Persico as a member of the FBI’s “Top Echelon Informant Program.†The 50-year-old paperwork was revealed through a Freedom of Information lawsuit filed against the Justice Department. Schoen said he hesitated to go public with the charge until doing some digging to verify the shocking story. “Independently of this document, two lawyers who represented Mr. Persico in the past have said that they had solid reason to believe that this information is accurate, as did another cooperating witness who gave examples that he believed proved the point,†Schoen wrote in a Friday email to defense lawyer Anthony DiPietro. “I would never have filed such a document without having taken these steps.†In another email, Schoen said he heard from a former Colombo associate declaring “the assertion is 100% right.†The mobster was a cooperating witness who testified against two of Schoen’s clients. “I met with the DOJ inspector General and two FBI agents. ... All agreed that the document reflected exactly what it has been represented to reflect,†he said. “I avoided filing this document for quite some time because of the seriousness of it and the implications.â€
That document has been out. It's not a list of members of the Top Echelon Informant Program. It's a list of Colombo Captains "Named" by Top Echelon Informant NY 3461 which is Greg Scarpa
David Schoen, representing Orena, delivered the bombshell Brooklyn Federal Court filing — including a 1971 law enforcement document identifying Persico as a member of the FBI’s “Top Echelon Informant Program.†The 50-year-old paperwork was revealed through a Freedom of Information lawsuit filed against the Justice Department. Schoen said he hesitated to go public with the charge until doing some digging to verify the shocking story. “Independently of this document, two lawyers who represented Mr. Persico in the past have said that they had solid reason to believe that this information is accurate, as did another cooperating witness who gave examples that he believed proved the point,†Schoen wrote in a Friday email to defense lawyer Anthony DiPietro. “I would never have filed such a document without having taken these steps.†In another email, Schoen said he heard from a former Colombo associate declaring “the assertion is 100% right.†The mobster was a cooperating witness who testified against two of Schoen’s clients. “I met with the DOJ inspector General and two FBI agents. ... All agreed that the document reflected exactly what it has been represented to reflect,†he said. “I avoided filing this document for quite some time because of the seriousness of it and the implications.â€
That document has been out. It's not a list of members of the Top Echelon Informant Program. It's a list of Colombo Captains "Named" by Top Echelon Informant NY 3461 which is Greg Scarpa
You're late to the game Colonel Reb. Read up further in this thread.
So, the fake news has been picked apart by NYMafia & the Colonel & Jace. Well done, Because he seems to of spent 90% on his adulthood in prison / probation/ bail. Can't believe people took Orena's lawyers claim to be legit. Not exactly an unbiased party . And surely no-one counts Gotti's ," Persico admitted in court he was in LCN, therefore, he's a rat".
David Schoen, representing Orena, delivered the bombshell Brooklyn Federal Court filing — including a 1971 law enforcement document identifying Persico as a member of the FBI’s “Top Echelon Informant Program.†The 50-year-old paperwork was revealed through a Freedom of Information lawsuit filed against the Justice Department. Schoen said he hesitated to go public with the charge until doing some digging to verify the shocking story. “Independently of this document, two lawyers who represented Mr. Persico in the past have said that they had solid reason to believe that this information is accurate, as did another cooperating witness who gave examples that he believed proved the point,†Schoen wrote in a Friday email to defense lawyer Anthony DiPietro. “I would never have filed such a document without having taken these steps.†In another email, Schoen said he heard from a former Colombo associate declaring “the assertion is 100% right.†The mobster was a cooperating witness who testified against two of Schoen’s clients. “I met with the DOJ inspector General and two FBI agents. ... All agreed that the document reflected exactly what it has been represented to reflect,†he said. “I avoided filing this document for quite some time because of the seriousness of it and the implications.â€
That document has been out. It's not a list of members of the Top Echelon Informant Program. It's a list of Colombo Captains "Named" by Top Echelon Informant NY 3461 which is Greg Scarpa
You're late to the game Colonel Reb. Read up further in this thread.
Been in this game when you were on Pampers. 25 years now unless you wanna send me a link to an FBI file? Mafia Student? Sit down. young one. So you think Carmine Persico Salvatore mussachio and John Oddo are all Top Echelon Informant s that have the same Informant #NY 3461? You still live with your parents don't ya?
What's that gotta do with being a Top Echelon informant? You're distracting from your idiotic first theory. Yeah I've read Persico wanted to do 60 minutes in the late 80s What the fuck does that have to do with the FBI file they posted on the daily news?
ITS OBVIOUS HE WAS A RAT IN 71 so he could move to the top of the Colombo family which he did soon after. I’m sure he wasn’t a rat for decades he wouldn’t have done time but all these guys at best rat on they’re enemies from time to time or to eliminate the competition which is what he did here probably ratting on Colombo so he could take over and resolve his highjacking case in a favorable way to himself....
Louie you are quite possibly the dumbest motherfucker I have ever seen in my life. Do you do drugs or were you dropped on your head as a baby?
If Persico is an informant, his case would be the worst kind of publicity for ratting the feds could ever have. Snitching and still having to serve a 139-year prison sentence leading you to die in prison? Lol who in his right mind would ever rat knowing that this could possibly be the eventual outcome?
"Hey man, we got this nice little proposition for you; you become one of our Top Echelon informants and in return you get a 139-year prison sentence, you're gonna die behind bars, we will lock up your son anyway when we feel like it and on top of that you'll get zero benefits from us. Deal?"
Sorry OP, but I'm with the "I don't buy any of this" crowd.
ITS OBVIOUS HE WAS A RAT IN 71 so he could move to the top of the Colombo family which he did soon after. I’m sure he wasn’t a rat for decades he wouldn’t have done time but all these guys at best rat on they’re enemies from time to time or to eliminate the competition which is what he did here probably ratting on Colombo so he could take over and resolve his highjacking case in a favorable way to himself....
Louie you are quite possibly the dumbest motherfucker I have ever seen in my life. Do you do drugs or were you dropped on your head as a baby?
If you knew who I really was, the last thing you would call me is stupid....You’ve been in this long enough to know how the life is...the life is treacherous, full of back stabbing and deceit...I’m 100% sure Carmine Persico wasn’t a rat for decades, he wouldnt have done time. BUT I THINK ITS VERY POSSIBLE he could have briefly been a rat in 1971, giving info on Joe Colombo and it’s been rumored for decades that he possibly helped frame Sonny Franzese to remove him as competition to the throne...We both know even though Tom Dibella was Boss after 71 , that Carmine pulled all the strings through Dibella and the Consigliere Allie Persico Sr... Carmine Persico was a smart guy and harnessing the power of the FBI and using it your advantage is the smart move especially in that life where not making the smart move can cost you your life...
If Persico is an informant, his case would be the worst kind of publicity for ratting the feds could ever have. Snitching and still having to serve a 139-year prison sentence leading you to die in prison? Lol who in his right mind would ever rat knowing that this could possibly be the eventual outcome?
"Hey man, we got this nice little proposition for you; you become one of our Top Echelon informants and in return you get a 139-year prison sentence, you're gonna die behind bars, we will lock up your son anyway when we feel like it and on top of that you'll get zero benefits from us. Deal?"
Sorry OP, but I'm with the "I don't buy any of this" crowd.
Looking from Feds side is a good deal: he ratted and they after had the infos they must not give him a reduced sentence.
If Persico is an informant, his case would be the worst kind of publicity for ratting the feds could ever have. Snitching and still having to serve a 139-year prison sentence leading you to die in prison? Lol who in his right mind would ever rat knowing that this could possibly be the eventual outcome?
"Hey man, we got this nice little proposition for you; you become one of our Top Echelon informants and in return you get a 139-year prison sentence, you're gonna die behind bars, we will lock up your son anyway when we feel like it and on top of that you'll get zero benefits from us. Deal?"
Sorry OP, but I'm with the "I don't buy any of this" crowd.
LOL, Definitely! I agree all the way. It's common sense. But it seems that nowadays common sense is not so common after all. LOL
David Schoen, representing Orena, delivered the bombshell Brooklyn Federal Court filing — including a 1971 law enforcement document identifying Persico as a member of the FBI’s “Top Echelon Informant Program.†The 50-year-old paperwork was revealed through a Freedom of Information lawsuit filed against the Justice Department. Schoen said he hesitated to go public with the charge until doing some digging to verify the shocking story. “Independently of this document, two lawyers who represented Mr. Persico in the past have said that they had solid reason to believe that this information is accurate, as did another cooperating witness who gave examples that he believed proved the point,†Schoen wrote in a Friday email to defense lawyer Anthony DiPietro. “I would never have filed such a document without having taken these steps.†In another email, Schoen said he heard from a former Colombo associate declaring “the assertion is 100% right.†The mobster was a cooperating witness who testified against two of Schoen’s clients. “I met with the DOJ inspector General and two FBI agents. ... All agreed that the document reflected exactly what it has been represented to reflect,†he said. “I avoided filing this document for quite some time because of the seriousness of it and the implications.â€
That document has been out. It's not a list of members of the Top Echelon Informant Program. It's a list of Colombo Captains "Named" by Top Echelon Informant NY 3461 which is Greg Scarpa
You're late to the game Colonel Reb. Read up further in this thread.
Been in this game when you were on Pampers. 25 years now unless you wanna send me a link to an FBI file? Mafia Student? Sit down. young one. So you think Carmine Persico Salvatore mussachio and John Oddo are all Top Echelon Informant s that have the same Informant #NY 3461? You still live with your parents don't ya?
-- Thats NOT what she was saying at all Colonel. In fact, Lisa is the one who actually posted up the documents that clearly refutes the accusation that Persico was a rat.
What she's saying is that your position (that both she and I agree with) has been posted up earlier in this thread. We happen to be in agreement on this one.
I’m seeing this as the informant number is showing which informant supplied info on the capo name to the left, not the number of the capo as an informant
David Schoen, representing Orena, delivered the bombshell Brooklyn Federal Court filing — including a 1971 law enforcement document identifying Persico as a member of the FBI’s “Top Echelon Informant Program.†The 50-year-old paperwork was revealed through a Freedom of Information lawsuit filed against the Justice Department. Schoen said he hesitated to go public with the charge until doing some digging to verify the shocking story. “Independently of this document, two lawyers who represented Mr. Persico in the past have said that they had solid reason to believe that this information is accurate, as did another cooperating witness who gave examples that he believed proved the point,†Schoen wrote in a Friday email to defense lawyer Anthony DiPietro. “I would never have filed such a document without having taken these steps.†In another email, Schoen said he heard from a former Colombo associate declaring “the assertion is 100% right.†The mobster was a cooperating witness who testified against two of Schoen’s clients. “I met with the DOJ inspector General and two FBI agents. ... All agreed that the document reflected exactly what it has been represented to reflect,†he said. “I avoided filing this document for quite some time because of the seriousness of it and the implications.â€
That document has been out. It's not a list of members of the Top Echelon Informant Program. It's a list of Colombo Captains "Named" by Top Echelon Informant NY 3461 which is Greg Scarpa
You're late to the game Colonel Reb. Read up further in this thread.
Been in this game when you were on Pampers. 25 years now unless you wanna send me a link to an FBI file? Mafia Student? Sit down. young one. So you think Carmine Persico Salvatore mussachio and John Oddo are all Top Echelon Informant s that have the same Informant #NY 3461? You still live with your parents don't ya?
Clearly you don't what you're talking about. I clearly stated that when I uploaded these documents that informants have unique identifiers. Therefore all those men in those documents are NOT INFORMANTS - Including Persico - BUT being informed on by #3461 (and the redacted informants) who is Gregory Scarpa. So, why don't you learn to read before you open your mouth.
David Schoen, representing Orena, delivered the bombshell Brooklyn Federal Court filing — including a 1971 law enforcement document identifying Persico as a member of the FBI’s “Top Echelon Informant Program.†The 50-year-old paperwork was revealed through a Freedom of Information lawsuit filed against the Justice Department. Schoen said he hesitated to go public with the charge until doing some digging to verify the shocking story. “Independently of this document, two lawyers who represented Mr. Persico in the past have said that they had solid reason to believe that this information is accurate, as did another cooperating witness who gave examples that he believed proved the point,†Schoen wrote in a Friday email to defense lawyer Anthony DiPietro. “I would never have filed such a document without having taken these steps.†In another email, Schoen said he heard from a former Colombo associate declaring “the assertion is 100% right.†The mobster was a cooperating witness who testified against two of Schoen’s clients. “I met with the DOJ inspector General and two FBI agents. ... All agreed that the document reflected exactly what it has been represented to reflect,†he said. “I avoided filing this document for quite some time because of the seriousness of it and the implications.â€
That document has been out. It's not a list of members of the Top Echelon Informant Program. It's a list of Colombo Captains "Named" by Top Echelon Informant NY 3461 which is Greg Scarpa
You're late to the game Colonel Reb. Read up further in this thread.
Been in this game when you were on Pampers. 25 years now unless you wanna send me a link to an FBI file? Mafia Student? Sit down. young one. So you think Carmine Persico Salvatore mussachio and John Oddo are all Top Echelon Informant s that have the same Informant #NY 3461? You still live with your parents don't ya?
In addition, if you knew anything, you would KNOW that the document I posted is an exhibit submitted to the Court in support of Orena's motion. This is the FULL DOCUMENT - not just the one page posted in the NY Daily News. Go check out Pacer - look at the motion and then the exhibits attached and you'll find it. Plus, just in case you didn't know -- if you look at the bottom right-hand margin of this document - you'll see "Clemente". If you're as smart as you say you are, then you will know that "Clemente" is referring to Angela Clemente, who is the person who broke the Scarpa story wide open many years ago. And this document is one of the documents she obtained during her investigation of the FBI and Scarpa. You should read about her....
NJein who originally posted this as if it was fact was wrong, but way more wrong than anyone is the reporter and the newspaper that put it out as fact without regard for the truth, even though anyone looking through the document released can see it does not name him as a rat at all. Now the reporter is doing podcasts with admitted snitches without any admission he was wrong.
NJein who originally posted this as if it was fact was wrong, but way more wrong than anyone is the reporter and the newspaper that put it out as fact without regard for the truth, even though anyone looking through the document released can see it does not name him as a rat at all. Now the reporter is doing podcasts with admitted snitches without any admission he was wrong.
Of which ColonelReb is a HUGE fan and fully supports even throwing Superchats at the two roving reporters.
Thats NOT what she was saying at all Colonel. In fact, Lisa is the one who actually posted up the documents that clearly refutes the accusation that Persico was a rat.
What she's saying is that your position (that both she and I agree with) has been posted up earlier in this thread. We happen to be in agreement on this one.
I love how defensive Reb is. Even people who agree with him get yelled at lol
I agree with some of the other posters here, Persico couldn't possibly have been a rat, as he received ZERO benefits, he and his entire mob-affiliated blood family were all railroaded, and I mean HARD!
ITS OBVIOUS HE WAS A RAT IN 71 so he could move to the top of the Colombo family which he did soon after. I’m sure he wasn’t a rat for decades he wouldn’t have done time but all these guys at best rat on they’re enemies from time to time or to eliminate the competition which is what he did here probably ratting on Colombo so he could take over and resolve his highjacking case in a favorable way to himself....
Louie you are quite possibly the dumbest motherfucker I have ever seen in my life. Do you do drugs or were you dropped on your head as a baby?
Reb , ur a very funny guy , I always like reading ur posts...knowledgable 2.
ColonelReb is a very good and knowledgeable poster, I also like most of the people he is arguing with. Unless I am missing something, do those i reference agree on one thing: The story of Persico being an informant is BS ?
I wonder How Capeici will cover this? He must know it's nonsense, but he wrote for the same newspaper as Larry "Stitbag" McShane so they may be friends. Reporters who are fiends do not like to criticize one another. I think he will play it neutral.
If it's true, and it looks like it is, it shouldn't surprise anyone. I've always suspected certain top bosses of being top echelons if they appeared themselves to have a narcotics operation, however secret or discreet. Why? Because everyone knows "the G" is behind most if not all of the top drug dealers. Therefore any boss, no matter how legendary, if he appeared to have any narcotics connection, even if it was off shored and outsourced to foreign criminal conspiracies and groups in other countries, that boss likely received immunity from the CIA. You can be a top echelon that the police or DEA don't even know about, it's just that when they go to arrest you, someone always interferes who has higher jurisdiction. I have no proof, but do I believe Carmine Persico was a drug dealer, ultimately? Yes.
Alfa, which bosses do you suspect? Perscio, Genovese, Castellano, Anastasia, and John Ormento, to name a few were all either going to prison for life or had cases and investigations pending. They even framed Genovese in his second conviction. Succeeding bosses in a few examples were also sent away:Gotti, for the Gambino's, Cantena , Salerno and Tieri on the Genovese side, and Carmine Trumanti for the Lucheses. Do you mean bosses in other cites, since all my examples were New Yorkers, or do you mean ones I left out? Perscio did most of the last 50 years of his life in prison, Scarpa (A definite rat) was constantly left alone till the very end.
Do you have any source for this fairytale?
You know, like the source Orena's lawyer provided showing Persico's cooperation.
The papers look doctored to me. Plus more than a dozen top, top bosses are listed there as well. If he is a rat, then what are you saying? All the rest of them were rats also?
It doesn't make sense. Anything is possible in life. Anything! But put two and two together and use your heads. Junior spent 50 years in prison. More than that, he beloved son Allie is currently doing life himself. If Persico had been a rat, don't you think he would have made sure he and his son (and his cousins Andy and nephews), didn't get destroyed like that?
Otherwise what did he gain from his so-called' cooperation agreement?
It's a shot in the dark from Orena and his lawyers to get some relief from his sentence. But I've seen those documents and I can tell you that they DO NOT clearly explain or delineate who is, and who isn't, an informer on those pages. And by the way, each CI has their own special code as you know. The same 'exact' code is listed next to each and every name on that list.
So it looks to me as though there was one informer who was providing info on all those named on the pages, Persico included.
He had more than one son. And cooperating doesn't give you and your loved ones immunity for committing crimes.
It allowed him to stay on top and purge his crime family of his enemies.
The informant number is the same next to each individual. Informants are given unique identifiers. So if all of these guys were informants, would they all be given the same identifier? Or could it be that this particular informant "3461-C-TE" is just giving information on the individuals listed?
It was 1 single informant (obviously high level) who was able to provide info on each of those named individuals. Period! And Persico was only one of many he had info on.
It's clear as a bell on those documents. Why some people try and create sensationalism and run with all these bullshit statements is totally beyond me. (Orena I can understand, he's trying to get out of jail and will BS on anything that he thinks serves his purpose). But the rest of you? Come on now.
Stay on track fellas. It's better that way (for all the legit people who truly wanna glean real knowledge of OC) and not BS
Says the fantasist who only writes information about mobsters that portrays them in a flattering light and skips over all the things that would make them look bad. Such as rape, crimes against women and children, drug dealing, assaults against innocents et cetera.
David Schoen, representing Orena, delivered the bombshell Brooklyn Federal Court filing — including a 1971 law enforcement document identifying Persico as a member of the FBI’s “Top Echelon Informant Program.†The 50-year-old paperwork was revealed through a Freedom of Information lawsuit filed against the Justice Department. Schoen said he hesitated to go public with the charge until doing some digging to verify the shocking story. “Independently of this document, two lawyers who represented Mr. Persico in the past have said that they had solid reason to believe that this information is accurate, as did another cooperating witness who gave examples that he believed proved the point,†Schoen wrote in a Friday email to defense lawyer Anthony DiPietro. “I would never have filed such a document without having taken these steps.†In another email, Schoen said he heard from a former Colombo associate declaring “the assertion is 100% right.†The mobster was a cooperating witness who testified against two of Schoen’s clients. “I met with the DOJ inspector General and two FBI agents. ... All agreed that the document reflected exactly what it has been represented to reflect,†he said. “I avoided filing this document for quite some time because of the seriousness of it and the implications.â€
Now now Louie, corroborating information from people in the know doesn't mean anything. A wannabe mafia hanger-on and a fan-fiction writer know more than the people who actually spoke with and knew Persico on a formal level.
That is Gregory Scarpa informant number. Carmine had a lot of information on a lot of top people in the 5 families on his rise to power, which allowed him to take over the Colombo crime family. For the sake of argument I have not seen anything to say Carmine was an informant, even the four top echelon informants who are unknown to me in New York don't have anything that remotely lines up with Persico being an informant. This is from the 1960s to 1980s. For the record Scarpa was not the only Colombo member talking before the 1980s.
The papers look doctored to me. Plus more than a dozen top, top bosses are listed there as well. If he is a rat, then what are you saying? All the rest of them were rats also?
It doesn't make sense. Anything is possible in life. Anything! But put two and two together and use your heads. Junior spent 50 years in prison. More than that, he beloved son Allie is currently doing life himself. If Persico had been a rat, don't you think he would have made sure he and his son (and his cousins Andy and nephews), didn't get destroyed like that?
Otherwise what did he gain from his so-called' cooperation agreement?
It's a shot in the dark from Orena and his lawyers to get some relief from his sentence. But I've seen those documents and I can tell you that they DO NOT clearly explain or delineate who is, and who isn't, an informer on those pages. And by the way, each CI has their own special code as you know. The same 'exact' code is listed next to each and every name on that list.
So it looks to me as though there was one informer who was providing info on all those named on the pages, Persico included.
He had more than one son. And cooperating doesn't give you and your loved ones immunity for committing crimes.
It allowed him to stay on top and purge his crime family of his enemies.
But then again, you know all this.
I do? Lol..... you're doing all the talking. It's your theory remember? Certainly not mine!
The informant number is the same next to each individual. Informants are given unique identifiers. So if all of these guys were informants, would they all be given the same identifier? Or could it be that this particular informant "3461-C-TE" is just giving information on the individuals listed?
It was 1 single informant (obviously high level) who was able to provide info on each of those named individuals. Period! And Persico was only one of many he had info on.
It's clear as a bell on those documents. Why some people try and create sensationalism and run with all these bullshit statements is totally beyond me. (Orena I can understand, he's trying to get out of jail and will BS on anything that he thinks serves his purpose). But the rest of you? Come on now.
Stay on track fellas. It's better that way (for all the legit people who truly wanna glean real knowledge of OC) and not BS
Says the fantasist who only writes information about mobsters that portrays them in a flattering light and skips over all the things that would make them look bad. Such as rape, crimes against women and children, drug dealing, assaults against innocents et cetera.
And let's not forget about wiseguys who have verbally embarrassed big mouths and spineless blowhards that dared try and talk bullshit about them to their faces (or more commonly behind their back). I'm sure many a loudmouth has gotten red in the face after being confronted for that type of behavior as well. That seems to be something that you might have firsthand knowledge of. How fast all the tough talking loudmouths cower in the corner when confronted by a real tough guy.
If it's true, and it looks like it is, it shouldn't surprise anyone. I've always suspected certain top bosses of being top echelons if they appeared themselves to have a narcotics operation, however secret or discreet. Why? Because everyone knows "the G" is behind most if not all of the top drug dealers. Therefore any boss, no matter how legendary, if he appeared to have any narcotics connection, even if it was off shored and outsourced to foreign criminal conspiracies and groups in other countries, that boss likely received immunity from the CIA. You can be a top echelon that the police or DEA don't even know about, it's just that when they go to arrest you, someone always interferes who has higher jurisdiction. I have no proof, but do I believe Carmine Persico was a drug dealer, ultimately? Yes.
Alfa, which bosses do you suspect? Perscio, Genovese, Castellano, Anastasia, and John Ormento, to name a few were all either going to prison for life or had cases and investigations pending. They even framed Genovese in his second conviction. Succeeding bosses in a few examples were also sent away:Gotti, for the Gambino's, Cantena , Salerno and Tieri on the Genovese side, and Carmine Trumanti for the Lucheses. Do you mean bosses in other cites, since all my examples were New Yorkers, or do you mean ones I left out? Perscio did most of the last 50 years of his life in prison, Scarpa (A definite rat) was constantly left alone till the very end.
Sorry for the belated response. So my criterion here is if you are a boss and could possibly have a narcotics connection, you might be a TE. On that list would of course be Carlo Gambino and Paul Castellano. Of course. Carlo and Paul outsourced the selling of junk to "Zips". Everyone knows that. But it was Carlo who was rumored to have a CIA connection. One rumor was that Carlo provided information and ordered hits for the government when they needed it. But the CIA would explain his long successful run as an "untouchable" boss. Proof? I have none. Paul Castellano merely continued the operation.
RE Vito Genovese. Not government connected. Lucky Luciano reportedly said that Vito [by involving himself in drugs] was getting into something "he didn't know a fucking thing about".
RE Gotti. Not government connected. Gotti and everyone connected to him were dealing drugs without CIA immunity. Lucky would say the same thing about them that he said about "stupid Vito". Paul Castellano's hit was a drug war hit. They were drug dealers hitting a drug dealer. Thick headed bunch they were (the entire Gotti junta) .
RE Anastasia. Indirectly linked to the government through the Commission as an Underboss but fell afoul of his peers when he made himself an unelected leader. Anastasia's brother ran the docks of one of the waterfronts, and his brother was a big point man in the importation conspiracy, which I believe "the g" was behind. But Anastasia's brother reportedly only ran the Brooklyn waterfront. There is also a Manhattan waterfront. We don't hear too much about that.
RE Ormento. Yeah. He's listed as part of the French Connection.
RE Lucky Luciano. Connected to the CIA predecessor...Office of Strategic Services. He has all the markings. He was sprung from prison after reportedly doing work for OSS as a type of clemency or reward. The main thing in doubt is if he actually did the work that the government claimed he did, to earn that release.
RE Other bosses. I have no idea. You all have to connect the dots. But like I said, the first clue is narcotics. But everyone at the top of the narcotics trade isn't an insider, only some.
That is Gregory Scarpa informant number. Carmine had a lot of information on a lot of top people in the 5 families on his rise to power, which allowed him to take over the Colombo crime family. For the sake of argument I have not seen anything to say Carmine was an informant, even the four top echelon informants who are unknown to me in New York don't have anything that remotely lines up with Persico being an informant. This is from the 1960s to 1980s. For the record Scarpa was not the only Colombo member talking before the 1980s.
Giacomo, you and I don't always see eye to eye and agree on things. And sometimes we don't even get along.
But I do commend you on what you just said here. And I do agree with you 1000% on this particular subject matter.
Junior was no rat. And if he was, these bullshit documents that were wantonly blasted in the newspaper certainly don't prove it!
They gotta show us the proof. Legit proof, not BS.
The informant number is the same next to each individual. Informants are given unique identifiers. So if all of these guys were informants, would they all be given the same identifier? Or could it be that this particular informant "3461-C-TE" is just giving information on the individuals listed?
The informant number is the same next to each individual. Informants are given unique identifiers. So if all of these guys were informants, would they all be given the same identifier? Or could it be that this particular informant "3461-C-TE" is just giving information on the individuals listed?
NY 3461 TE is Greg Scarpas number. He is just reporting to the Feds who are Capos in each Family. Alfredo "Freddy the Sidge" Santantonio was NY 3864 TE before he got whacked. I've got others in my files. bill Bonanno's informant number was always redacted in files I've seen but I'm gonna do an FOIA on him next. He definitely gave info and his handler was Special Agent Armstrong
That is Gregory Scarpa informant number. Carmine had a lot of information on a lot of top people in the 5 families on his rise to power, which allowed him to take over the Colombo crime family. For the sake of argument I have not seen anything to say Carmine was an informant, even the four top echelon informants who are unknown to me in New York don't have anything that remotely lines up with Persico being an informant. This is from the 1960s to 1980s. For the record Scarpa was not the only Colombo member talking before the 1980s.
I totally agree Gio....why would a major boss f--ck himself over 4 a bullshit manuvear 2 take what he knew was 2 b his??....from my 30 plus yrs.. , the whole thing lands down on f--ckig Scarpa Sr....that asshole was a crazy f-ck just like Scarfo Sr........Greg should have never taken asprin 4 his( at least)..daughters' sake....she was (& is) a nice & beautiful woman..I can't believe when I see that episode of that show where Karen Gravano tells her she was not invited ....she looks so sad.
ITS OBVIOUS HE WAS A RAT IN 71 so he could move to the top of the Colombo family which he did soon after. I’m sure he wasn’t a rat for decades he wouldn’t have done time but all these guys at best rat on they’re enemies from time to time or to eliminate the competition which is what he did here probably ratting on Colombo so he could take over and resolve his highjacking case in a favorable way to himself....
Louie you are quite possibly the dumbest motherfucker I have ever seen in my life. Do you do drugs or were you dropped on your head as a baby?
If you knew who I really was, the last thing you would call me is stupid....You’ve been in this long enough to know how the life is...the life is treacherous, full of back stabbing and deceit...I’m 100% sure Carmine Persico wasn’t a rat for decades, he wouldnt have done time. BUT I THINK ITS VERY POSSIBLE he could have briefly been a rat in 1971, giving info on Joe Colombo and it’s been rumored for decades that he possibly helped frame Sonny Franzese to remove him as competition to the throne...We both know even though Tom Dibella was Boss after 71 , that Carmine pulled all the strings through Dibella and the Consigliere Allie Persico Sr... Carmine Persico was a smart guy and harnessing the power of the FBI and using it your advantage is the smart move especially in that life where not making the smart move can cost you your life...
Dibella wasn't the Acting Boss until a few years later. When Colombo got shot they tried to put the Underboss Charlie Lemons Mineo up but he declined because he was too old and not in food health so they had a triumvirate of Joe Yak, Vinnie Aloi, and Carmine Persico. That held until Persico went to the can and Yak went into hiding after the Gallo hit. Carlo Gambino was close to Buster Aloi so he wanted his son Vinnie to be the Boss. That lasted for a few months. That's just the first year after Colombo was whacked. You know who was elected acting Boss after that or do your know? Hint: it wasn't Tom DiBella yet
To Mafia Student. I misread your post and what you were trying to convey. Please accept my apology and my insult to you. And thanks for NY to pointing it out for me. I'll try to be more patient when reading things.
To Mafia Student. I misread your post and what you were trying to convey. Please accept my apology and my insult to you. And thanks for NY to pointing it out for me. I'll try to be more patient when reading things.
No harm no foul ColonelReb - I wasn't very nice either. Onward and upward.
The other part that shows that this attorney is reaching is he is trying to say that the reason Michael Persico was able to get such a good deal was because his father was an informer what in 1971?
So the feds told the prosecutor to give M. Persico a sweet deal because his father was a C.I. 50+ years ago???
The other part that shows that this attorney is reaching is he is trying to say that the reason Michael Persico was able to get such a good deal was because his father was an informer what in 1971?
So the feds told the prosecutor to give M. Persico a sweet deal because his father was a C.I. 50+ years ago???
I can't believe when I see that episode of that show where Karen Gravano tells her she was not invited ....she looks so sad.
Whats more sad is hollywood glorifying these murdering and thieving pieces of shit.
The law says you cannot profit off of illegal crimes by making movies but it doesnt say your lame ass kids can't milk your mob past to get money and glorify the lifestyle.
Sammy Gravano is a perfect example of why the government is full of shit and the legal system in America is inherently flawed. The fact Karen is on there shooting off her big fat mouth and so is Sammy on youtube is disgusting.
With all that said Scarpa's daughter comes off as pretty classy.
Says the fantasist who only writes information about mobsters that portrays them in a flattering light and skips over all the things that would make them look bad. Such as rape, crimes against women and children, drug dealing, assaults against innocents et cetera.
Dont forget he now charges for his site which is little more than collating a bunch of other internet posts and putting them all in one place.
NYMafia is more of a NJ meatball, hes never been in the life, he just glorifies it, and he's doing nothing more than running tours through other peoples information shit and charging for it.
At least guys like Fosco/Franzese were actually in the life and are telling their stories unlike NyMafia who comes off as a hack version of Capeci/Kass
You don't think he was an informant but you think he gave information to the feds in the 1970s? That's the same damn shit. Either you think he was a rat or you don't, make up your mind. What I find astounding is how people can come up with theories all day long about stand-up guys but the moment we try to figure out what the government is doing we're conspiracy theorists.
I dont think Persico was a lifelong informer but I do think he gave the feds info back in the early 1970's to help move up the ladder.
You have absolutely Zero critical thinking skills. From 1972 until his death in 2019 he spent all but 2 and a half years in prison. Please thank tell us what info he gave and how it helped him climb the ladder!
I dont think Persico was a lifelong informer but I do think he gave the feds info back in the early 1970's to help move up the ladder.
You have absolutely Zero critical thinking skills. From 1972 until his death in 2019 he spent all but 2 and a half years in prison. Please thank tell us what info he gave and how it helped him climb the ladder!
Excellent point Colonel. It may not matter to him, he wants to make people think Perscio ratted. I don't think he really believes it himself. Persico was never out long enough to even do anything like that. If he had, they would have kept him out of prison, even if he stopped, hoping the would do it again. Perscio never gave them anything.
I have looked at all information I have, and have not come close to an informant being Persico. Not just FBI and FBN/DEA, but also PD, Sheriff's, and State Troopers. Going through a lot of it I have to say thank you, as I may have found a made member in Buffalo who was an informant. So thank you for that. Carmine Persico didn't inform on anyone.
