John Gotti Sr overly critisized

John Gotti is always put down becuse he supposedly loved the lime light.
Im here to tell you thats bull shit. The true reason Gotti lived on front street was because he wasnt afraid of prison, this fuckin guy was a true gangster. He just wasnt afraid of going away. Give the man some respect.

But it's not just himself that went away for life. He dragged down others without intention, without even becoming an informant. Those regular meeting of all the capos at the club under surveillance (refusing to come meant getting whacked), that helped the FBI to know the complete list of the high-ranking members of the whole family. That Gotti was boss, they could have discovered by themselves, but he basically delivered to them the list of the capos as well. And with him never talking in code, always in the same bugged room, this helped to get information about others too. I mean, to say "to kill" when talking about murders, instead of "solve the problem", "take care of" or whatever a lawyer can question the meaning of in court, this is just dumb. But again, if it was just about him, it would be one thing, but he brought under radar others too.

Joey Merlino in Philadelphia is similar to him, I am wondering how did he avoid ending up like Gotti so far....

He was an an o.g. He had balls. He didn't think of the big picture. Tell Frankie Loc your feelings.

With or without Gotti, all those guys would of went down. Gotti is somehow used as a scapegoat. Law enforcement just started using advanced technology and they all would of met the same fate.
Ask the top genovese, lucchese, colomobo, or bananno's if Gotti is the reason for their current conditions. Why you are at it, ask some gambimo's as well. That life is over.

He was a very shortsighted boss, forcing all his guys to turn down plea deals. His brother Gene might've been home fifteen years ago if John would've let him plea down.

John's mouth and ego pissed off Gravano so much it convinced him to flip. Maybe Sammy was so scared of the can he would've flipped anyway, but Gotti badmouthing him certainly helped push Sammy in that direction. Sammy certainly testified about the leadership of all of the five families too.

Merlino avoided wiretaps and none of his top guys betrayed him.

Advanced technology? They bugged the building Gotti held court in. Even in 1990 that wasn't advanced technology.

In terms of importance and power, merlino doesnt come close to gotti. Merlino is a big fish in a very small pond. Gotti controlled unions, complete industries, and many other rackets. Merlino is selling fake creams.

Not to get in a pissing match but Gotti was a scumbag career criminal gambling junkie murderous thug and egomaniac.

He died where he belonged.

That may be true but he was boss of the most powerful crime family in america at age 45.
Any of the other families could of tried to kill him, why didnt they???
With the exception of the car bomb on 86 street in 1986, thta was it. It wasnt because the other families were so smart and knew his in your face persona would eventually hang him. And it washt because gotti methodically conducting business in the open so there would always be media around and no one could whack him because of the media and cops always being around.. thats bullshit.
How did he stay boss for over 5 years??. Just luck??? No? He was feared and respected regardless of what most say. He had a tough and loyal crew.

Why is there all of a sudden new members who praise and look up to these criminals? And if you are gonna "praise" a gangster then john gotti wouldn't be a good choice. Yes he was tough and he didn't "rat" but he was the boss so there really was nobody to give up anyway. Lets be honest gotti was a moron. You can trace back his criminal career and he did a lot of stupid things in the life and got caught a lot of the time. The Mcbratney hit was a complete fuckup and if it wasn't for Carlo Gambino helping him out by getting him Roy Cohn he probably gets a long sentence. Also without Neil dellacroce gotti wouldn't have gotten far lets be fair. neil's biggest mistake in his career was helping gotti move through the ranks. Gotti's crew had to resort to drug dealing because he blew away of their profits on gambling. Obviously when he becme boss he acted like a movie star and continued to do stuid things that eventually got him arrested and brought the mob down. So to answer the original question.....No he wasn't overcriticized

You're giving Gotti too much credit. the reason other families didn't try to kill him after the car bombing of 86 was because they were smart enough to know that it would bring heat on them....they weren't scared of Gotti. Its common knowledge that gotti was terrified of Anthony Casso as well as Roy demeo(when he was alive) so basically gotti made peace with The Lucchese family and with the Chin in order to save his own ass

It probably would of taken the feds atleast another 10 years to bring down Locasio.He was a low key guy.Thats probably 10 extra years he could of enjoyed his life on the streets.There was absouloutly no point in Gotti discussing murders from 6 years before

I bet my mortgage that if Frank decicco was named boss instead when big paul got killed the Gambinos would have be strong for a while.

Was Gotti even in any business other than being a brain dead thug?

Did he even have a shy going? Not to trust gravano but he talks about him like he was basically a retard...

gottis crew was a muscle crew. They werent the big earners of the family.

Castellano was more a business man that a gangster but run good the family while Gotti in 4 years:
led the fed to know every 21 family capos;
made his dumb son and his more dumb brothers;
with the "no plea order" his brother gene and piney armone get long sentence (gene get 50 y while can had only 25 y);
his badmouthing convinced his underboss to flip;
In 1991 there was only 15 crew while in the 1986 was 21;
Made lose respect apponting his son as acting boss that for example dont burned a list of people to made,made lose money during meeting with more smart wiseguy ecc

At The end only in 2011 after Cefalù becomed the boss the family turned to the old sicilian way to made bussiness.

Fake creams? Is this serious?

Or like saying fake hats at the mall?

I agree with Aces in that the late 80's and 90's were the hardest time to be boss, without a doubt. LCN was the nr.1 priority for LE and had almost unlimited funding and budget, unlike pre 1980 and after 2001. Even the most secretive boss of them all, Chin Gigante, got caught in the end. So did almost every other boss in that era.

That being said, Gotti should have known better than to talk so loose, especially after barely getting away with it at two different occasions. Talking about those murders was totally unnecessary. His loose tongue was his greatest weakness imo, other than that he was a pretty good, Machiavellian-type boss and he probably would've done great if his reign was in the 30's, 40's or 50's.

I never paid attention to Gotti cos he was all over the news . It was like to much information.

So if he does not run his mouth up in that apartment he would have never got pinched ?

Maybe later on for something else, but because of his earlier acquittals the government had to have an almost ironclad case to indict him. So if he was very careful and delegated a lot, he could've gotten away with it.

Aside from the tapes and Gravano, did they have anything or anyone else to testify against him? He went to the apartment because he knew the ravenite was bugged. Wouldn't common sense tell you to be a little more precautious. Like everything else with these guys, who knows what it's like to be in their shoes. Maybe he had a mole that told him that they had only the ravenite bugs giving Gotti a sense of security.

Hey may have gotten away with it for a little while but it doesn't matter because he was such a moron anyway. Another thing was tat Gotti was a "blue collar mobster" which may have worked long ago but by the late 80's early 90's you needed to be able to understand white collar crimes too which gotti had no idea. Gravano handled all those type of rackets

It was no coincidence that those tapes were recorded in the winter. Normally Gotti went on walk-talks if he wanted to discuss something important, but the cold on those days was too uncomfortable for him I reckon. He also should've put a guard in the appartement when Mrs. Cirelli went on her vacation..

But at the end of the day it's like you said, it's easy to criticize the man but we never walked a mile in his shoes..

U might want to watch that Diane Sawyer interview again. Far from it.

"John was SMART! No doubt about it, John was smart".

Scarfo is loved on these boards yet he was another celeb gangster like Gotti. IF anything he wanted more attention. He would tell his guys to drop their weapons at scene of crime to send a message

He loved gangster movies and his face lit up with a smile when he saw photgraphers

He made his entire crime family attend his wild parties and the boat parties knowing full well the Feds were filming

Who on this board loves Scarfo? He's a fascinating character but I think everyone agrees his tenure as boss was ultimately a disaster. Also, he never liked talking to reporters. The only notoriety Scarfo sought was for his bloody nature, believing the publicity would make people fear him more (which they did).

I think it's pretty universally agreed on here that scarfo is one of the dumbest motherfuckers that ever lived. I've never even heard it argued.

That's so you don't get caught with the murder weapon.

Agreed. ive been coming on here for years and I have never seen people love Scarfo. Most call him a psychopath. John Gotti on the other hand gets A LOT of love for reasons that I don't understand

U dumb facks! We ain't talking "love" love

What I mean is people on here as one of u said "are fascinated" with him. What's there to be fascinated about- he was just a lunatic/ stupid boss yet when I say love what I mean is he doesn't get shit on like Gotti does. Put simply he is much more well liked on these boards but they are both the same

Scarfo was equally as stupid as Gotti if not worse

He decided murder was his calling card (yes we know because of what happened to his predecessors) made him that way but it doesn't take away the stupidity ... that fear led to guys like Tommy Del & Crow flipping and taking down the entire org

Granted a rat is a rat and would have turned anyway... but he made it a lot easier for guys to flip since they all saw how Salvi ended up (being loyal means nothing)

Who said he talked to reporters/ rather didn't talk to reporters. Does it even matter, he like Gotti loved to dress up and smile at the cameras

If he saw his name in the papers he was smiling for the entire day (most wisegusy would pay NOT to have their names in the papers)

He appointed his nephew who was the new breed of yappie dons who enjoyed the power and money but couldn't do the time. This put a lot of wiseguys in trouble not only in his own fam but other borgotas

And why did he promot Phil ? It was done to protect himself/ another dumb selfish move

Then he tried to get Nicky son to run things with cousin Tony and look where that got him. Almost killed. If he had any brains he would have realised it was over

NOBODY is fascinated with Scarfo. 99% of people on here have said he was a paranoid inept lunatic. So just relax man

They both became don's within a few years of one another. To me, the two of them marked the beginning of a change in lcn. They were both the complete opposites of their predecessors which their bared their families names. Gotti took over a rather stable family and Fucked it up. Scarfo took over a very unstable family which the two previous dons were assassinated. After he took over, his family thrived for a while until he was taken down. "You have to kill and keep killing...." or whatever Phil said scarfo said. I guess after all the violence one would become paranoid. Gotti should have relinquished his position to someone who would've been respected and not have been a hypocrite. Scarfo should have not put his son in charge. But what gets me, is all these guys now, from the 80's, and 90's. This ain't the turn of the century. Fuck that pyramid scheme, to Hell with jail, it can't be fun sneaking around from le and the irs, you can never trust anyone. There are plenty of careers that can give you a wonderful living if you put the time into. I bet more retired fbi and cops are enjoying their retirement years then the guys that spent their careers trying to evade them. Granted there are a few that retired well off.

Who is low key; steven crea ??? He is going to get life. How many years on the street did he really have.. doesnt matter, you are going down.

Exactly. Someone posted an article about the cali cartel. They made lcn look like a Fucking pick quik chain. They even got busted. The Golden days are over and Gotti Sr. is the symbol to relate that with. If I were to be a criminal, I'd copy the Wolf of of Fucking Wall Street.

Want to be a criminal and get away with it? Become a lawyer....

That would make things a hell of a lot easier, but lawyers sometimes get life sentences for organized crime related crimes too, even successful ones. Random examples: Paul Bergrin in the USA and Raffaele Bevilacqua in Sicily (he was a Commission member for the Enna province if I remember well). But it's difficult to send away a lawyer, that's true. Better than that, only immunity that national-level politicians have.

Just saying, I read a lot of people slating how dumb Gotti was/ worse boss etc but I rarely see Scarfo get shitt on

He was just as dumb as Gotti if not dumber

Dont forget about the Rizzuto kid, he's the last one left in his blood family still alive!

he was definetly smarter than gotti to be fair. Also he was a better earner considering he controlled a lot of atlantic city. Scarfos biggest flaw was his bloodlust. He was so damn paranoid and obsessed with violence that it made him do stupid things

I read (before they locked him up in supermax)that when Gotti was in jail awaiting his trial that he was idolized by many of the black "gangsta" types that were awaiting trials for things like drug dealing, strong arm robbery etc.

He told them all never to take a plea, make the government come after you and spend their money on a trial.

The next paragraph was how all these stupid kids who listened to Gotti who could have gotten 5 year plea deals got 20 to life for taking their shit to trial.

Somebody on here should know......

Did they ever catch Don Carlo on a bug????

John Coffey pretty much tells it like it is when it comes to these guys. Coffey spoke about how "cagey" Carlo was and how stupid Gotti was.

Sal

Joe Coffee

Chin was another dummy, when Vic &a Gas told him Black Pete was a rat he refused to act on it due to greed

Not to mention Sammy already told some
of chin's top underlings they shouldn't take a chance considering they found few bodies in his building

Yet he skated on any charges. That was telling in itself

And still Chin did not act. He not only put himself at risk but his underlings and other families due to pure stupidity

Yet I keep reading on here how smart Chin was. Most of the people who say that are just regurgitating what Sammy wrote in his book

Still, for years he managed to convince specialists he was crazy for real and that allowed him to stay on the streets longer. It's not that easy to make a psychiatrist believe you are crazy when you are not, takes some skill at least.

It's really not that hard TBH especially when ya facing life....

My friend used to work for a medical tribunal as one of the doctors. And he said the Vietnamese have mastered the art of feigning mental illness

U wouldn't believe how many fake mentally disabled people there are that are claiming state income

From time to time I see in papers how the state caught so and so feigning a
physical disability

For every one they catch there's prob thousands more that don't get caught. Chin just happened to be one of them

joe coffee knew about gotti, he often said gotti had the IQ of a mothball. look how he destroyed the gambinos, their money went down from 100 million a year to 20 million, sammy flipped because he heard gotti on some tapes, that's all on gotti, but, the worse thing the moron ever did, was making his son boss, the dog wasn't fit to run a two-bit pizzeria, much less an LCN family.

To become boss of the Gambinos you had to hold sway among the ranks, but he was no Tommy Lucchese.

Anyone read Mystic River?

The wife of the character Sean Penn played in the movie reminds me of John Gotti's wife.

If you've read the last few chapters of the book you'll know what I'm on about.

Come to think of it, the way the character Sean Penn played in the movie justifies his destructive actions reminds me of John Gotti and his supporters.

Good Point moe. Im guessing you are talking about the favara incident in relation to mystic river. As bad as john gotti was his wife was just as bad when it came to that incident. I mean i sympathize with a parent losing a child but she went too far. Furst she beats the man with a bat while he was trying to apologize for a unfortunate accident then she basically told her husband to torture and kill this guy. Im sure gotti was planning on doing it anyway but his wife wanted it done too

These people were human garbage

Why is this even a conversation?

Savino was his biggest mistake, other than that he was the smartest boss of his day and this is confirmed by a lot of people who would know.

From Selwyn Raab's Five Families:

- John Pritchard, the FBI's Genovese Squad supervisor, who went on to hold high city and state law-enforcement posts, tipped his hat to Gigante's evasive abilities. ''Without a doubt, he was the smartest, most scheming Mafia figure to come down the pike in my time. There seemed to be no way to get him.''

I'm fascinated by this whole thing just as we all are or we wouldn't be here, but...

If I spend a lifetime being a scumbag and wandering the streets in a bathrobe mumbling gibberish to myself and not wiping my ass after I shit...and fill my other time outsmarting jerk off shrinks into thinking I'm crazy...and with the threat of life in prison constantly over my head...

...would you call me smart too? I didn't fucking think so.

Let's not redefine the term intelligent. Less of a Dumbfuck is what we're really talking about here and we all know it. They say anyone can pull a trigger---maybe it's true, maybe it ain't. And forgive me if I don't put much stock in what some cop says. You think he wants to admit his life's work was nabbing people who couldn't make a grilled cheese sandwich? A cop calling a monster smart justifies the cops existence. A self fulfilling prophecy.

Gotti was boss from December 1985 to December 2002. He was arrested in December 1990 and got life in 1992. How much command and control did he have when he was arrested for the final time? Not much. He basically had a 5 year run as Boss and most of his 5 years he was in jail or on trial.

As Joe Massino said about Rusty Rastelli, "How smart can he be if he spent half his life in jail?"

Couldn't the same be said for how successful Gotti was as Boss?

His legacy is undeniable. He's an icon. Which is really what he wanted. So he did what he wanted to accomplish. Be a legendary icon and famous mob boss. The cost was life in prison.

If you do all that and control a very powerful criminal organization at the same time I'd definitely consider you to be pretty intelligent. Chin was extremely dedicated, the guy was like an evil genius.

also at the cost of many lives taken and sending to prison dozens of his guys getting caught on tape several times in his life..he is an icon .in the worst sense..he did one thing good ..a good bid..well lets listen to the marion tapes..not such a good bid either..seems every visit his family made he abused them also..gotti destroyed his blood family and his omertà family..genie and john carnig are still paying for his brilliant call..go to trial...he died a horrific death at the hands of a vengeful govt. maybe one in the same both evil at times..i remember made guys quietly happy when he got life, they felt like they just got released from a bid...

Chin was a dummy because he made one bad decision in all his years as a top boss ??

Even the feds and prosecutors speak about him with respect...He was far from a dummy !!

Calling these guys smart is like calling them good businessmen.

It's easy to pull things off when the first drawer in your toolbox has a tool named murder and the second drawer has terrorism, and so on and so forth. And even then they still manage to fuck it up half the time. And if the Feds would have paid better attention to the wiretaps they'd have had him way earlier. He still died in prison.

Smart? I respectfully disagree.
Less of a Dumbfuck than most of the other Dumbfucks? I'll go along with that.

You need a yardstick to measure distance, not a weight scale. And vice versa. He spent his life in and out of prison and with the threat of imprisonment over his head. His greatest "accomplishment" in life is that he was head of a ruthless, murderous crime organization for a long time, only because he created his own prison in faking mental insanity over three decades. He was a piece of shit for his entire life. And if he was smart, he sure found an amazing way to spend 50 or 60 years wasting those smarts.

alicecooper
but I don't get it, are we talking about them from a moral point of view or just about their abilities? Because it's completely different; a criminal may be smart or even a genius, but still a scumbag. The fact he is clever and uses the intelligence to commit crimes makes him morally even worse. Somebody may be a n.1 in his abilities and even a genius like nobody before, and still being a scumbag.

And it doesn't apply just to "normal" criminals (members of the "underworld") imo. Like for example, in history there were plenty of extremely capable generals among the conquerors of new lands, yet they make both Gotti and Gigante put together and multiplied by 100, look like angels, if counting the number of innocent civilians killed.

I mean, my point is that, saying somebody is smart doesn't mean giving him credit as a person. Somebody may be a "smart" bastard deserving a lethal injection at the same time.

You are right I should not have brought the morality angle into it but it's hard not too because in his case it goes hand and hand with prison, trials etc.

I've said all I can say on it. To me he's a moron.

When it comes to big mouths, Gotti didn't do himself any favors in that regard by hanging with Quack Quack. In the end Gotti seemed more interested in business suits than anything. I mean, a daily visit to the barber ?!?

the barber came to his club everyday

Talk about a full of yourself guy

lol..tailor also,,he had a shop on 101st

Exactly. You can get an even greater sense of his arrogance after watching the jail tapes. He talks about how its an honor to be in his presence. Sadly some people actually thought that or still think that for reasons unknown lol

yes. i agree, worst boss in mob history.