Howard Beach, hypothetical question

The murder/rape of the young lady jogging in Howard Beach a few days ago had me thinking, what if the Gotti's still had influence in the area, how long would it take for the responsible person who committed this heinous act to be found in the street having been served with street justice? Maybe the murder never would have happened to begin with. We always read the mob controlled areas are the safest and if anything did happen it was handled long before the cops got it resolved. Anyway, Just thinking out loud.

I think that's a bit of a myth TBH.

Remember when some black kid going to see a white girl in Howard Beach was murdered by a pack of animals?

It was practically a modern day lynching.

Maybe they were safe from African-American crime and Latino-American crime because of racial antipathy, but let's face it it was open season for everyone else when it came to drugs etc..

But yeah, it probably wasn't a good idea for a black kid to rob an old Italian-American lady or sell drigs in a neighborhood where loads of mobsters reside.

It's just common sense.

Here exist the same myth in the old days the criminals dont touch the women and the kids,dont sell drugs etc

But is only a myth, nothing more.

There are other Families (Mafia) representatives living in the neighborhood..Year's back the neighborhoods were safer because of the mob influence in the neighborhood..Most of these guys are either dead,in prison or on paper..not the same anymore.

I am just finding out about this story now. Fucking awful. Queens is turning into an absolute shithole.

As far as the Howard Beach citizenry seeking and finding retribution against the killer, not likely.

But years ago this crime probably wouldn't have happened. Howard Beach was surrounded adjoining Italian neighborhoods which are all gone (except for a few blocks in Ozone Park and a few blocks in Woodhaven). Walking around those neighborhoods back in the day everyone was mindful of outsiders, and had a way of letting you know you weren't from around the area. I can't see a predator seeking out a victim on Linden Blvd/Cross Bay in 1985. But these days, different story.

Were did most of the Italians and Mob guys go? Long Island, Staten Island, Jersey??

Didn't Gotti have his neighbor killed for accidentally killing his son in a traffic accident? I suppose in many ways a mob neighborhood is safe, but the phrase live by the sword die by the sword still applies.

Didn't nutty old bats from the neighborhood used to warn Gotti and the rest of his cronies when the feds were spotted near the Ravenite?

I mean how deluded can you get?

This is so fucked up. I read in Daily News that she was black and blue when they found her and she was missing teeth. Too fucked up. Some fucking psychos in this world. Really feel for her father, must be beyond devastating. Was this even a trail for runners? I'm surprised nobody heard any screams or anything. Anyone on here familiar with the area?

Such a sad story, beautiful girl. Sounds like a serial killer type of crime. That type of thing happened in the mafia heyday so I would say it has no impact.

Looking on Howard Beach's website it says the neighborhood is still 50% Italian. The article said her father goes on runs with her every day and this time was the one day he decided not to go with her. Poor guy will regret that for the rest of his life. So sad and senseless.

Yes..in the area she was jogging it is barren. The suspect I believe hit her in the head rendering her unconscious..maybe she started to come too and the suspect hit her..making little noise and don't forget people have their Ac's on..Maybe someone did see something? Police don't release too much during a investigation.

I don't get why somebody would even go for a run there. Plenty of sidewalks in Howard Beach. Also read that she broke up with her boyfriend a day or two before.

Why are they diluted..? He protected the neighborhood and threw big 4th of july parties for the entire neighborhood..The feds are worse..lmao.

The setting for Spike Lee's Summer of Sam, based on the Son of Sam killings in 1977.

Not a great movie, imo. But certainly focused on the paranoia in an Italian, mob controlled NY neighborhood in the '70s (Throgs Neck?) amid a serial killer's rampage. Michael Imperioli wrote the screenplay.

To prove that you would have to show that absolutley no violent crimes like this were commited during the time he was in the area.

"A brother in Queens was beaten and chased
murdered cold in the streets, a goddamn disgrace
just because of his race
his life went to waste
and not one went to jail when the court heard the case
justice or corruption? it's all interlaced
how can you swallow this? I can't stand the taste
squeeze the trigger"

- Ice T, Squeeze the Trigger, referring to the Michael Griffith's death in Howard Beach

Kinda off topic ..but,this shit would NEVER have happened in Bensonhurst circa 60s,70s 80s..

Protests and counter-protesters at Howard Beach after the Michael Griffith killing. December, 1986. John Gotti was on trial during this time. Anyone know if he was around the neighborhood then? Photos from google.

Gotti Sr's house is 0.5 miles away from where the poor girl's body was found

Can't stand that instigator Al Sharpton, what a scumbag of a man..

Alot of italians can pass for middle easteners, im just saying

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailyne...ticle-1.2738864

Terrible crime but Queens and NYC is FAR less violent then it was years ago unless you are talking about the 1950s or so

This isn't directed at anyone but I never really understood when people say this never would of happened years ago. It probably just has to do with memory but most neighborhoods in the 80s and into the mid 90s was literally night and day from a violent. crime perspective comparaed to today.

I hate Guiliani but he really did an outstanding job with crime that did pave the wave for outstanding real estate returns for some

How ironic. The bloodsucking leech who is contributing to the drug endemic which is taking young lives and destroying families in communities precisely like the one he speaks of says this wouldn't have happened back when his parasite of an uncle was around.

That poor girl came from a good family. Pillars of the community. Went to college, earned a Masters just like her father did before her, and contributed to society.

Her father was a fireman who was part of the rescue and clean up operation on 9/11. The same national tragedy cockroaches like his entire immediate and extended family profited from.

Do he and his idiot, drug peddling friends honestly think they can speak for all law abiding Italian-Americans?

They are complete and utter embarrassments and shame on him and his rotten, lazy, family for making this tragedy about them.

R.I.P. poor girl. Hope they catch the guy that did this.

Howard Beach is still a very safe middle class neighborhood in Queens with a lot of Italians....

I keep reading poor girl on this thread. Why do you feel so sorry for girls like her? Don't tell me that you're all that sheltered!! This girl should have listened to her father. He knew that she would not be safe on the trail without him; he saw how men looked at her. You can't go running ALONE on a deserted trail in this day and age. The girls of today are in La La Land. I read that she was texting a friend and then stopped. You can't text, you can't look at ur phone, how ridiculous. As a female, you need your eyes and ears open to be completely alert of your surroundings. You need pepper spray, a knife, a life alert around your friggin neck. This female was a complete idiot!!! This would not have happened when Gotti was around, not because of him but because of the mentality of the people back in those days. The females knew better than to DISOBEY their fathers' warnings and were much more street smart than the females of today. I feel sorry for her father!! Poor man, looks like he did everything right but just couldn't knock any sense into his clueless daughter!! And I just have a feeling the guy who killed her was probably someone she knew casually. At first I thought it may have been her ex boyfriend but now I'm not so sure. Dumb girl got herself killed.

What the hell is wrong with you? Although I agree it's not the smartest thing to do, how could you blame the girl for simply going on a run? And I'm sick of people saying "back then this" or "back then that." Ever hear of Ted Bundy? Or Dahmer? Or gacy? Horrible shit like this has always happened. Nothings changed.

I somewhat agree with you. Too many women out there post half nudes of themselves on social media not being aware of the psychos that might be following them.It's a crazy world out there. It's really sad what happened to her and can't imagine what her family is going through but many people put themselves in situations like this, I personally think that it was someone she knew and that followed her on social media. How else would they know that she'd be running by herself that evening? Women need to chill down with all he social media shit. You never know what kind of a psycho is watching you.

U got that right!

Absolutely nothing is wrong with me! This girl was a friggin moron for not listening to her father and going on a run ALONE on a trail in a desolate area. Sure, we females should be able to feel safe but we need to be overly cautious when we are ALONE. You cannot let your guard down for one second.

This girl had no chance, no chance. She put herself into that situation and was killed because of her own stupidity!!!!!

i doubt it was some random derelect lurking in the bushes there. my guess , that id bet on, was it was someone she knew. or someone who knew her at least. she was a pretty popular girl in real life and online... thousands of instagram followers. couldnt be too far out of the realm that it was someone who knew her and was stalking her. makes more sense than a psycho hiding out in the woods in the most residential, least outsider friendly (to this day) neighborhood in queens

You wouldn't say the guys who chased Michael Griffith into moving traffic while yelling racial slurs at him weren't instigators as well?

Thank you for that comment and I agree with you, for the most part. But I will try to speak a bit from personal experience, not NYPD stats.

I'm 41 and have been attending a martial arts school on Linden BLVD in Ozone Park for many of those years. It is the last Italian "stretch" of Ozone Park. Recently, the grocery store right next to us was robbed at gunpoint - during the day. Now this is a stones throw from the former Bergin Hunt club. Does this happen in 1989?

I realize crime is way down in general, but in eastern Queens it doesn't seem that way. There is evidence of human trafficking on nearly every major corner (massage dens, gambling parlors, 24 hour nail salons, Korean "companion" bars).

Then there is the oft repeated statement that many rape victims never come forward. If true, this would negate the NYPD claim that rape is at a 40 year low. Considering it took decades for hundreds of child abuse victims in the Boston Dioceses to come forward, it may very well be true.

Child Slavery in Flushing:
http://queenscrap.blogspot.com/2016/01/child-slavery-in-flushing.html

Rape and homicide:
http://queenscrap.blogspot.com/2015/10/woman-found-dead-at-kissena-park.html

Triple homicide:
http://www.timesledger.com/stories/2014/37/fire_web_2014_09_09_q.html

25 small children in a house:
http://www.qchron.com/editions/queenswid...8ba38f52a2.html

What happened was horrible, but they were in a fight and things like that can happen. These guys were no saints either..

I bet that perp knew her, but she didn't know him.
Like you said she had thousands of followers on Instagram and almost all of the pics I saw of her were of her in full make-up, sexy clothes or tight work out clothes for every stranger out there to see.
I'm not saying it's wrong what she did, but it can attract some obsessive followers, online and in real life..

The backgrounds of the victims are not relevant. They were accosted and eventually assaulted, and one of them eventually killed, because they were black. That's all that matters in regards to this incident alone. Al Sharpton, or anyone, bringing attention to the matter is not a moral equivalent to the assault and killing. His right to free speech is protected by the constitution. The bigoted and violent actions by the scumbags in Howard Beach were not.

Bravo, well stated sir. https://media.giphy.com/media/10Shl99Vghh5aU/giphy.gif

This story is about a young girl who was Viciously attacked,Killed and Raped.I couldn't care less about sharpton, griffith or the other 2..(that died from aids,needle sharing)or the other guy who was charged with 16 years for shooting his brother.Real upstanding citizens...The attack on her, probably wouldn't have happened years ago..That's a fact. The neighborhood is not the same as it was. Car theft was the only real problem years ago.

Unfortunately that can be said about a lot of neighborhoods in NY. I grew up in the Wakefield section of the Bronx and now when I go back I see it has become a total shit hole. it's just the world we are living in. My heart goes out to this girl's family. A total tragedy. You have to be so careful everywhere you go these days there are a lot of people looking to do harm. I don't think anyone could have prevented this. The release of mental patients from psychiatric Centers, the Homeless, the criminals with extensive arrest records and your ordinary run of the mill pervert are out there preying on the unsuspecting.

That is kinda true,AFG..maniacs did exist, but we, as a society, forget so quickly..what about the litte girl who was abused by her parents in the 90s..debra something or other..in fuckin' beauty pagents or some such shit ..their r still sick fucks out there.

I used to deliver mail in Wakefield.

Possible. Then again, it could still be the ex boyfriend she dumped, who was immensely jealous based on all the things you pointed out, and lacked the ability to keep his butt hurt emotions in check. There are a lot of men like that running around today, in the mainstream, who have these kinds of thoughts in their heads when attractive women reject them. They think that because these women are on instagram, twitter, etc., showing off their looks, that they should be easy or something. When it turns out these women are not easy, and these dorks are forced to face the fact that they just don't have what it takes as a man to attract them, they act out in strange ways. In most cases it's just complaining to friends while drowning in beer, and things like that. Some blame feminism. And then there's that lunatic few that take it a step further.

Howard beach used to be a very safe, beautiful italian neighborhood. Its disgusting how it changed. The people moving in are sub human and a mix of bottom of the barrel people.
C'mon all you italian americans. Stand up for your neighborhoods and get those undesirables kicked back to the scum they come from. If you dont, those animals will destroy your land.

Yeah, it was safe until John Gotti's kid rode his bike in front of your car, or if your car broke down while you happened to be black.

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/fitness...5f09ddf1317b4c8

Relevant article in light of this insensitive and bileful post.

Well, Moe a girl who puts herself into a situation where men can harm her is only asking to be raped and killed. Why didn't she listen to her father? Doesn't she trust her own father? He knew there were transients and men in the area who could harm his daughter.

If there are sharks in the water and a lifeguard tells you not to go in and you go in the water and bleed to death. Whose fault is it? The sharks? No, of course not. Some men cannot help themselves and will attack. She was warned. She didn't listen. Now she's dead.

We, women need to make smart decisions and can never let our guard down. Look up or ask someone who lives in that neighborhood and ask them if they would let their sister or daughter run ALONE on that trail. And they'll tell you It is not safe.

I wasn't trying to make some all encompassing statement on crime . I was just saying people sometimes forget how many murders went down in NYC back in the day.

There are no doubt still plenty of disaster areas in the city but I think by and large NYC is less violent than the 90s.

My aunt has been in ozone park forever so I hear what you are saying but I still think Ozone is better today generally speaking

Was just my casual 2 cents , nothing more

I agree. Especially if you didn't spend time here and really feel the difference in the atmosphere then and now. And not just murders, but all kinds of violent crimes.



Absolutely. And crime stats back it up.

Now that stop and frisk isn't done crime has gone up. But it is still lower then it was before.

Oak knows all about the Howard beach incident Michael Griffith. He looked it up on google. He was not even born when that happened.

Those were stupid fucking kids that did that.

There was an incident here where a black kid was hurt on knapp street years ago.

Sharpton still wore sweat suits back then. A few days after I saw him everywhere that day. With bus loads of blacks.

First he goes the ball fields on knapp street. They start playing soft ball there hoping for trouble. The guys that hurt or killed that kid were Latin Kings not white guys. He didn't know that.

Then he come to marine park field hoping to start trouble there. I lived a few blocks from that field. The white people their are laid back people. They commented about Sharpton and his crew being there but nothing more. So Sharpton got bored fast and left. Then he goes to kings plaza and they start walking the mall. I had a lot of action at kings plaza back then.

So I start talking to him in his sweat suit and me in a real suit. He was still fat then.

He got bored and left. They never returned to play softball ever again.

Definitely a very unsettling reality, part of the reason why I haven't had and probably never have kids

It is always ignored that other heavily Italian areas (like Lower East Side) are safer now than they were before.

Well, if you have boys you could always, you know, teach them not to be rapists and murderers

I taught my two daughters how to protect themselves when they were kids.

I will teach it to you women now.

Out stretch your arms straight out. That is your space no one gets into that space. You can back up but once you can't then you can not hesitate to act. Hesitation will kill you. You can't worry about having to hurt someone. You hurt someone and get caught you get arrested maybe. If you who cares you get a lawyer at least your not dead.

They get into that space fingers in the eyes, heal of the hand into underside of their nose. Knees to the balls don't stop until they are down. Then get the hell out of there. You can't think about it first get into your space do it. Try to kill them at least your giving them something to worry about.

My youngest daughter in Germany had to do it once. Evidently it worked pretty good.

Women have to stop thinking they are weak. Their not if they don't hesitate to act by thinking first what to do and when.

Someone mentioned it above. She broke up with her boyfriend 2 days before she was killed. The article said he liked her more than she liked him. He was cleared with an alibi but I wouldn't rule him out. http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/quee...ticle-1.2738297



They also said many homeless hung out at the area she was killed.

So to me it was either the boyfriend or a crazy homeless person.

Wait that's all it takes? All of our problems would be solved if only the American people chastised rapist and murderers. Still I will settle for no children

Of course that isn't all it takes. You have to lock up your daughters too. Aren't you reading the thread?

Well that will get then used to kitchen duty when the are older Think I got this while parenting thing down now should be a piece of cake

I hear ya Dude, I do have a 5 year old daughter and I worry about in what kind of a world she'll be living in, in about 25 years or so..

There was a study over here in Holland that said that a majority of the population negatively judged people who chose to be deliberately childless. And if asked why, a lot of people answered that these people were selfish in their eyes.

To me that is absurd and in my eyes it's often the other way around, a lot of people get children for their own needs even if their situation, financial or otherwise, or their relationship isn't very stable, they think a child will change everything..

You're a perceptive man Billy. Great points.

Not everyone wants kids, and it's certain that not everyone should have them

I still think it was the ex boyfriend. I also think it's suspicious that investigators are so dismissive of him being a suspect. I mean just how solid is his alibi? There's no way they could have determined at this point that he didn't hire someone to do it. It would take months to come to that conclusion, after all stones are turned and all possible contacts are interviewed. They're just like, 'nope, wasn't him'. Weird.

Thank you Helen and I couldn't agree more with your statement..

That hit's so close 2 home billy..i sort of chastise my stepdaughter for doing that very thing (your last statement)..& having a third child only made things worse 4 their relationship & the other 2 children (1, the 1rst born, w/autism who has jealousy rages). Then your statement 'bout kid's 4 financial reasoning..how sick..& we know who they are..trash.

About a 20 min ride from worcester were i grew up the found another jogger good looking girl 27yrs old looks to me also a itailian last name killed an set on fire she worked for google in nyc guess she was visiting her parents its all over national news just so simular.

Flushing Meadows Park, Jamaica Bay, Kissena Park, Forest Park are all full of homeless encampments. I think this is the area to concentrate on.

Don't believe it was the ex boyfriend as every cop in the city seems to be on this case and I'm sure he was grilled thoroughly.

At first, my guess was it was a possessive ex boyfriend or one of her followers or maybe a co worker. But it seems like it would be someone who knew her and knew she'd be running ALONE on the trail.

In reading your post and learning that there are so many transients in that area who are 99% of the time mentally unstable makes me now believe that it may actually be one (or even two) of them.

My daughter runs and sometimes alone however she is accomplished in Krav Mega and carries a 9 mm. Most of the time though, she has a partner

Okay its been almost 2 weeks and no leads, no witnesses, no case.

I wish the NYPD would swallow their pride and bring in the FBI. More resources, better training and more federal money might yield some results.

Bring in the boy's and they'll save us time and money..You'll find pieces of him.

"The father of murdered Queens jogger Karina Vetrano said Thursday that detectives are closing in on her killer."

http://nypost.com/2016/08/18/dad-of-slain-jogger-says-detectives-are-closing-in-on-killer/

Looks like they have a possible person of interest, problem is they can't find him:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/quee...ticle-1.2770741

Seen blood father with mel gibson the jewish bosses in hollywood leaked his movie before it hit the big screen. This dad is gonna get the guy. Then its gonna be a movie.

Mystery man sought by father of murdered Queens jogger Karina Vetrano is 'not a subject at all'



http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/quee...ticle-1.2771602

I listened to the father discuss the case on Curtis Sliwa's radio show. They are seeking a jogger who has long stride, wears high socks and apparently stopped running after the incident.

As much as want to see the true murderer arrested and electrocuted, I am also worried that they seek out a guy who has no connection to the case other than that he jogged in the same neighborhood.

He could have stopped running there for 100 reasons. Let's not pull a "West Memphis 3".

the guy the dads talking about went to the police as soon as he heard the dad was calling him out. Police need to get the dad under control.

Cops release sketch of man seen leaving spot where Karina Vetrano was slain in hopes he can help nab killer:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/sket...ticle-1.2772857

I think it was more than 1 person who did this..Someone told me that there was a witness who had seen 3 males (blk) walking out of the area. The sketch could be 1 of them. Hoping he'll turn the other 2 in..She was really brutally beaten..That could also be why there was no DNA hit, might be a mixture of DNA...so much for playing Sherlock Holmes.

NYPD Detectives have a DNA profile of the killer, it didn't hit on any national or state databases, so now they're painstakingly going through younger people who committed crimes pre 1998. They also went around giving free bottles of water to the vagrants in the area and then collected them , but none of the vagrants hit the DNA profile either....

Stuff like this is not helpful in the slightest.

What's your problem..? I live here..You don't.The so called witness was in Police headquarters till the wee morning hours.

That's what the Police say..is that what they want the public to believe.Younger people before 1998...lol.."younger people" What were they 5 yrs old...You actually believe that..

Jon Lester, the ringleader in a racial killing by a mob of people in Howard Beach in the 80's recently committed suicide.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/23/...howard-beach-race-attack-dies-at-48.html

Sad, as he seemed to have turned his life around in prison. He was never able to see his family again, as he was banned from returning to America, being a native of Great Britain.

I wonder what became of the other people involved in this thuggery?

Hopefully they turned their lives around.

That Times story is extremely biased. Lester was dating a Black girl at the time, and he had walked her home before encountering the 4 men. An argument had broken out between him and them, leading to him going to get his friends. My source is the friends of Michael Griffith who were involved, they said so in their testimony at Lester's trial that they had argued with him earlier and challenged him to fight. He was outnumbered and went for his friends. All the Black men including the one who was hit by the car had records. Lester went to England and married an Indian lady.

https://www.nytimes.com/1987/01/05/...puzzling-picture-of-a-racial-attack.html

greg scarpas brother salvatore was killed in a mob social club robbery rite after this happend. the shooter said this is for howard beach. the robbers were a group of black guys but 1 white masked man who may have been mike paradiso from the gambinos lil brother he was a fbi informant and may have did the shooting cause scarpas brother was gonna tell the bosses his brother greg was a fbi snitch. sounds very plausable. gegs daughter believes he had a hand in it.

I am not condoning it or proud of it.

However, you never really would have seen 4 black men walking around bensonhurst

The same way we would never go to Bedstuy or Brownsville

You just knew better

I would imagine Fama the kid that killed Yosef Hawkins is home by now.
What a shame all those families lives were ruined over nonsense