Did Frank Lucas and Nicky Barnes surpass the Mafia

I have often heard that African American gangsters in the 70s like Frank Lucas, Nicky Barnes and Frank Matthews had the power and influence that even rivaled the Five Families maybe even surpassed them at the time...is this accurate?

Pee-Wee Kirkland!

Absolutely not. Black gangsters have never possessed the intelligence to become as organized as the American Cosa Nostra.

What about Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson?

Black men aren't smart enough to become gangsters -- just smart enough to sit on the Supreme Court and become President of the United States.

This board is full of racist, right wing, conspiracy filth. You have people over in another topic who legitimately believe that the EU purposely lets migrants in to create a federalized union. Seriously... and Blacks are the dumb ones.

Too bad we can't just talk about fucking organized crime without it become a racial argument. Thanks Ralphie! Appreciate it!

Fucking perfectly said.

+1 some of the things i read on this board is embarrassing

Though I am against the way the EU and Merkel in particular are dealing with the refugee problem, I am by no means racist..

There is a refugee center near my parents' house in the south of Holland and around 70% are young, able and single men, and I hear this is pretty much the case everywhere. I talked to my neighbor who is a Kurdish lady who came here during the first Gulf war and even she says that this is going to be a very big problem. If I was a young, single and healthy man, I can't imagine myself fleeing my country when it was under attack, but that's me..

And I don't think it is too far fetched that there is some sort of agenda by certain powerful groups who want to create a federalized union in Europe. If it was up to those guys, big business and bankers, there would be a world government. Very smart people have stated this also, so this is not some tin foil hat shit imo..

Even though this is now feeding from another topic, you agreed with the assessment "the entire migrant thing is planned."

Really? The entire fucking thing is planned, huh? Incredible. Civil wars? Planned. Refugee crises? Planned. Amazing the corporate elite has enough control to know exactly how a civil war will play out! It's crazy -- some people actually think war is hard to control! How stupid are they?

And, damn it, this is now my fault.

Whatever, this thread had 0 hope anyway, especially on this board.

There are structural reasons for the Italian Mafia's success. A little thing called "prohibition" might have fed into it.

alright guys.... lets get back on track


so did these these guys have the power to challenge the mafia?

No, not that it is 100% planned, that's impossible..

Normally I never react on political subjects and I regret doing it, because a lot of things are misunderstood and taken the wrong way..
I also agree 100% with letting families, fathers and mothers with children, old people and sick people have a safe place in the EU.
But again to make my point, when I look at the refugee centers and a big majority are young, able and single men, I think that situation isn't good and will create a lot of problems in the future. There are already problems btw, almost every week there are big fights, some with weapons at the centers between the different nationalities. That's the last thing I'm saying about it and to be 100% clear I'm not a racist and absolutely don't agree with the black people are too dumb statement..

No they didn't have the power..but The mob dealt with them because of their control in certain areas..In the big picture..No.

I feel like an idiot now, i just realized I literaly asked the same question 2 years ago ...WOW

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...4209#Post764209

anyways, what is the answer to the question in your guys opinions?

Huh? I'm registered Democrat who voted for Obama twice!! The smartest person I know happens to be black. Hell, my gf is black. No one is saying all black people are stupid, but we can't overlook the fact that black gangsters have never been as organized as the mob. They behave like morons. Why? Because intelligent black people aren't criminals.

You're right Fire Hawk, I will drop it, was my last post on the subject..

To answer your question, and this is just my opinion, I think if guys like Frank Lucas, Frank Matthews and Ike Atkinson had more time to grow their operations and cooperate with each other even more, they could have challenged the mafia eventually. Frank Matthews organized a summit right before he disappeared, if they gave him 5 or so more years he maybe could've been the black equivalent of a Lucky Luciano..

BTW: Paul Castellano and Tommy Lucchese allegedly couldn't stand it, that Matthews had a house in the same street as them on Staten Island..

were talking about the American mob right..because I think they probably would of never been able to match the Sicilian Mob..but they could of rivaled the American families

Yes of course the American mob, because they operate on the same territory..

Matthews was a very fascinating guy in general. Have you ever seen the documentary about him by Al Profit?? Was very good, I'll post it here below just in case..

Let's see since this question have been asked before.

The drug trafficking aspect is where Frank Matthews & Ike Atkinson excelled in more so than the NYC families. In general rackets the NYC families have more diverse income and their honey & milk rackets won't rely on a foreign source.

Comparing a Kingpin's operation to an individual or collective NYC family (ies) is hardly comparable. They're a few structured groups in NYC underworld that have maintained which will be the prison gangs & bikers.

Also your statement is false too.

BTW, have you answered any of the questions in the Tombstone thread?

I agree BF, when I said they would surpass LCN, I meant in the field of drug trafficking and maybe the amount of money being made in general..

I've got a question BF, considering this is your field of expertise, do you know how many dealers attended Matthews' summit in Atlanta in '71?? And is it known who they were??

Surpassing The Sicilian Mob....or the American Mob?

LCN is the American mob and I already answered your question my friend, look a couple of posts above, also attached a doc about Matthews..

Somebody had to say it.

April fools already passed man

That's great question and it's going to take time to dig up if there's any information. I found this interesting conversation from the forum of CityData.com by a poster:

" The story I always heard as a kid was that this drug kingpin from NYC back in the late 60's and early 70's named Frank Mathews basically made the Bluff his southern HQ. Most people are familiar with Frank Lucas, who was around at the same time too, but Frank Mathews was a lot bigger and never got caught. Frank Lucas had the Heroin in NYC on lock while Frank Mathews had the whole country on lock. In 1971 Frank Mathews had a conference here in Atlanta of all the countries biggest Black and Hispanic drug dealers at that time and the goal of the conference was to basically cut the Italian Mafia out of the Heroin business. And in the process of doing that he bought up some property in the Bluff and made them into stash spots for his southern distributors so that they would not have to drive all the way to NYC for a re-up. And the result of that was the Bluff became known as the place to go to get large quantities of Heroin throughout the entire south, not just Atlanta. People all the way there from the Gulf Coast to Virginia would drive there to buy in large quantities of Heroin and then go back home, break it down, put a cut on it and sell it on the streets in their respective cities. Once Frank Mathews vanished in the mid 70's, the Bluff continued to be the go to place in the south for wholesale amounts of Heroin. Soon after that people in the Bluff not involved in the drug game started moving out and what started out as an area with a few stash spots here or there turned into not only wholesale distribution but street level distribution from the newly vacant houses. The Bluff was already well known in Heroin circles in the south as the go to place for that drug so it was not much of a stretch for them transition to that. And the end result is what you have today- You have a drug that still even today is not as easy to find in the south as Weed or Coke, but in that one small area between Simpson and Bankhead its everywhere and not hard to find at all."

@ ralphie

I've told you before, your comments are loaded, the way you phrase things goes a long way to exposing your real agenda. You gotta stop saying stuff like that, then trying to backpedal out of it....

BlackFamily just posted something on indictments of GDs in the southeast, they had a cop hit man, a hierarchy, methodology for enforcing rules, they even have a transplanted version of a Chicago girl gang I thought was defunct, don't tell me black criminals are incapable of maintaining a hierarchy. Like that's a goofy statement.

I know you know about the numbers wars in Harlem, and Chicago, guys like Teddy Roe, don't tell me blacks can't do math, lol.....

I feel like what you mean is blacks aren't as diversified as the mafia, but dude, who the fuck is? Not even the cartels will ever " control" the Teamsters or the docks or the airports or anything like that, that's never coming back, not unless there is another J Edgar Hoover waiting in the wings that will ignore the mob for another 50 years. Not unless there is another liquor prohibition, FOLLOWED BY A MAJOR ECONOMIC DEPRESSION,That empowers rich criminals....

@BlackFam
That's a great post, good info, real informative too on how the drug trade works, how you can have an area that is relatively remote, but still is a hub for narcotics based off of historic connections, and relationships made in the past. It's funny cause this is actually more like the structure of the " Drug Dealing Mafia" I'll call it, as opposed to the control the territory and siphon resources from it, a la labor unions, extortion, docks, business specific to a certain area (You need a standing military like presence for this, i.e. Made guys, for a drug network you need a core group of people you can trust TO GET THE DRUGS TO THE MARKET and BUYERS,that's mostly it..). I keep trying to tell people these organizations are going to have different methodologies. STOP TRYING TO COMPARE THEM, LOL..

@ralphie
Here read this....


http://www.ngcrc.com/ngcrc/page14.htm



Specifically I like this passage just for you......

Thus, on August 10, 1993, when Larry Hoover actually appeared before the "parole board", he had amassed a wealth of political and community activists in support of his bid for parole. We had heard from a reliable source that some of those who did testify for Larry Hoover were handsomely paid, as much as $50,000; however, this has never been confirmed. The parole board voted 8-0 against giving Larry Hoover a parole.

Astute newspaper reporters like the Chicago Tribune's George Papajohn were skeptical of how rehabilitated Hoover was and how sincere he was about ordering his gang to "go straight". Reporters like Papajohn dug deeper, and they published their stories: they reported that it was a "hoax", it was a "scam", it was preposterous to assume that this notorious gang leader would be an asset to any community.

In the summer of 1993 summer Larry Hoover engineered a major gang organization accomplishment: a big GD picnic in rural Kankakee County, Illinois at a private farm. The official GD name for the event was the "Gala Illinois Family Day Voters Picnic". Think of it as a "Woodstock" for GDs; because about ten thousand (10,000) of them showed up. They partied, ate, listened to music, got high, milled with the throngs of GDs, took pictures of each other in their finest gang clothing, and made quite a picture as a massive gang gathering, perhaps the largest ever recorded in U.S. history. They were bused in: the hundreds of buses were rented or paid for by the gang itself. Larry Hoover would make a call from his relative comfort in the Vienna minimum security facility, and speak to the thousands of GDs present at the picnic over a loud speaker system that was set-up for the event.

---(The Gd Appalachin lol)--

insert gang picnic photo's here

-----

A major "coup" for the GD gang occurred in the fall of 1993. In October the GDs organized a "peace treaty summit meeting" in Chicago, bringing in Crips from all over the continental USA, as well as a lot of GD's and sympathizers to the GD "cause". The year 1993 would therefore signal the year in which "Crips" would align themselves into a national gang alliance system with the "Folks" (particularly GDs). Today, "Crips" and "Folks" are aligned in the national gang alliance system. It was not a hard allegiance to make: both Crips and GDs wear "blue" colors. As this initial alliance system developed and spread nationally, in local communities big and small, and inside correctional institutions everywhere, it basically forced the "Bloods" to align themselves with the "People" or "Brother" gang alliance system, by default in terms of what the power struggle had left them with: a choice of necessity, not convenience.

Obviously, the ability of the GD gang to hold this conference and stage other ludicrous events in Chicago during the Fall of 1993 made them formidable. Citizens were shocked and dumbfounded how the GDs had control over the Englewood High School in Chicago; where an "awards ceremony" was held for the Gang Peace Treaty Summit Meeting: it involved giving out awards for Community Leadership to the likes of persons like Larry Hoover and other notorious gang leaders. Some how the GDs had coopted and controlled an important government facility: a public high school, using the schools auditorium for an official gang event.

To our knowledge, no parent in Chicago who had a child attending Englewood High School at the time has ever filed a federal law suit against the Chicago Public School system for a civil RICO cause of action involving the criminal corruption of their children. But this author taught a gang class to the teachers at that school at that location during the same time frame: the teachers were obviously demanding gang information, because they sensed something was "amiss", the school was being turned over to a gang (the GDs). The teachers demanded an after school hours college course be taught about gangs at the Englewood High School, and they wanted me: I volunteered through my university to do this. I gained much valuable insight into the power of the GD gang at that time.

About time of the Fall of 1993, the federal government had its Operation HEADACHE, the official codename for the federal investigation of the GDs in full swing. It meant a unique way of gathering intelligence. The visitors who would come to see Larry Hoover in the Vienna Correctional Facility were given special visitor badges, inserted in between the thick lamination of the visitor's badges were subminiature radio frequency transmitter devices, designed to provide a listening station to the content of the "visiting" that went on with Larry Hoover. As one of the investigators on the case related to me, well into the investigation, one of the visitors with such a "wired" visiting badge simply walked out of the institution and kept the badge as a souvenir of visiting Larry Hoover. On their way home, they were still able to be monitored. But at some point the individual was so proud of getting this "trophy" of his visit to "King Larry" he kept playing with it, and noticed a small bulge in the middle, and his curiosity got the better of him, and he began to unravel the package to actually discover the transmitter device contained in it. Certainly Larry Hoover was soon notified of this development, but by then it was really far too late. Too much incriminating information had already been gathered in the preceding months of the court authorized intercept.

During the month of June, 1994 I.D.O.C. correctional officers complained through their union at the Pontiac prison that prison administrators were making deals with gang leaders; the CO's demanded a zero-tolerance policy towards gangs to improve CO safety. They would not get their zero-tolerance policy until after the infamous "Speck tape" hits the national news and makes the entire Illinois prison system appear to be corrupted. The Speck tape would shake up the prison system, and continue to have reverberations well up until the time of this writing in late 1999.

In the fall of 1994 Larry Hoover was transferred out of the Minimum Security Facility in Vienna and into a tighter facility at Dixon, Illinois. Obviously, IDOC knew at this point that the federal investigation, code-named "Operation HEADACHE" was underway and that they had scored evidence incriminating Larry Hoover, such that he was about to be indicted. From an investigator who was involved with that operation, we were told that over 8,000 conversations were recorded, amassing a wealth of intelligence on the GD gang. It would not look so bad if Larry was taken into federal custody if this were done at a more secure facility. But even at the Dixon prison, Larry Hoover's "job" was that of the visiting room: he had visitors every day; he ate steak sandwiches, milk shakes, and chicken from the "grill" at the visiting room. He never ate off the "main line" in the inmate chow hall. He did not do any work, he had no assignment, he was busy EVERYDAY meeting with the endless number of visitors who would come to the prison to meet with him. He obviously had his own "section" of the visiting room staked out, it was "Larry Hoover's" area.

By the year 1994 "Bloods" were forced to ally with "People" and "Brothers" gangs in national gang alliance system started in 1993 where crips and folks joined.


READ THIS ONE YOU WILL LOVE IT LOL




Incredible, but true, in early 1994 Wallace "Gator" Bradley, spokesperson for GD front group "21st Century VOTE" meets with President Bill Clinton in the White House. He had the audacity to tell the president he represented a group called "Better Growth and Development". This issue never surfaced in any of the subsequent debate and campaign coverage when President Clinton began his run for a second term in office. But it truly was the first gang to get a representative into the inner sanctum of the White House. Some gang experts mistakenly refer to the case of Jeff Fort, the leader of the El Rukns, known more commonly as the Black P. Stone Nation, as the first person to pull this off, but that is factually untrue: Jeff Fort had an invitation to an inaugural event for President Nixon, but never actually got there. The photographic evidence of this is documented in the Chicago Tribune, February 18, 1994, section 2, p. 2.

During the time frame of 1994-95 the GDs fronted two candidates for election to Chicago City Council; both were defeated.

In March of 1995 Larry Hoover makes his last effort to gain a parole. This becomes one of the most sophisticated efforts to secure his release. It includes using the testimony of two Ph.D. university professors testifying for Larry Hoover (Dwight Conquergood from Northwestern University, Chicago, IL; and Clemens Bartollas, from the University of Northern Iowa). Obviously, his parole bid fails. The parole board voted 10-0 against giving Larry Hoover a parole.

On March 15, 1995 Larry Hoover issues a letter to all GDs in prison and out on the streets. It is a well-crafted letter, and thus probably actually written by one of his aides or attorneys. A copy of this letter is provided in Figure 45.

No, it's not. Anyone who claims any of these guys even came close to rivaling the five families is either ignorant or engaging in blatant revisionist history. Thats not racism saying that, just the facts. That it's even a question, especially when we're talking pre-1980s, is surprising. Maybe too much watching Hoodlum or American Gangster. And incidentally, the mob never looked at Bumpy Johnson as an equal. He was basically the front man for the Genovese family in the black community.

Oh, and by the way, while Justice Thomas is certainly a smart man, the only reason Obama made it to the White house is many were dumb enough to vote for him. But I digress...

The Internet is real, it's out there if you WANNA SEE IT, if not well....

@ivey


Again if you mean has a group come close to duplicating the mafias infiltration of legit industries, then no.

If you are talking about power in the streets, well yeah. That's what drugs is, THE STREET LEVEL BUSINESS. If you control the flow of drugs you control a good portion of the street, or at least have significant influence.

Think Carmine Galante; All he cared about was drugs, and it was a significant enough problem for the ENTIRE MAFIA TO WANT HIM DEAD. Frank Mathews essentially was Carmine Galante, or some sort of equivalent. But again, for the millionth time, an organization that focuses on drugs is different from the "infiltration model". So a direct comparison is going to be a little difficult....

I agree. All I wanted was to point out the facts. They don't seem to understand that groups are different, and that pointing out positives and negatives doesn't mean you are being racist. What is crazy is that no one objects when you criticize white people, a race I've criticized more than probably any other race.

At the end of the day, it's about the individual and not entire groups. Like I said before, the smartest person I know happens to be African American.

I had to laugh when I got accused of being a conservative. I've never been a right winger. I support Bernie Sanders, a man who for years has fought hard to better the lives of African Americans and other minorities.

so having the most money doesn't mean you have the most power?

I get the the distinction but I don't see much evidence those earlier guys surpassed the mob on any level, be it power in the streets or anything else. Not only are we talking about one drug trafficking organization against the entire NY Mafia, we're talking long before RICO, etc.



Are you assuming those drug guys you mentioned made more money than the mob?

Also, you gotta understand;

People jumped down his throat because of what he said and how he said it.
He said BLACKS CRIMINALS DONT HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE TO DO WHAT THE ITALIANS DID.

Now what is that? Form a hierarchy? Impose rules and order? Run businesses, form connections with politicians? Guys like BlackFam can provide examples of all that, so what do you REALLY MEAN?

Irish criminals were every bit as smart as the Italians, they never formed a national syndicate, no one will say they were too dumb to do it. Same with the Jewish gangsters. The Mexicans and Colombians made away more money, but the money doesn't necessarily translate to power, why? Cause the money you give to a politician has to be, "kinda" beyond reproach right? I mean it has to at least LOOK A LITTLE CLEAN, how do you just throw drug money at a politician in today's day and age? With Rico and all that, it isn't Canada.

You guys make these dudes seem like SUPER CRIMINALS because they are Italian, when really they got big cause of prohibition, the depression, and a myopic FBI. Couple this with the labor unions, (and some like the Teamsters have had discriminating policies as far as minorities, so how could they get power there?) These are the things that made the mob, the MOB.
You look at that post I put up Ivey, if they woulda left the GDs alone for a little while longer, they woulda been a problem in Chicago and all over.

Direct evidence? Well when the black gangsters went and got their own supply, that's when they came up. When guys like Nicky Barnes established an absence of competition in the biggest markets, that's when their power and negotiating leverage goes up tremendously.

It's like, what the fuck you expect, blacks to be controlling labor unions during Jim Crow era America? It has nothing to do with intelligence like what the fuck?

Look at it this way, name the guy in the mob during the Matthews era, that was as big or bigger.... Seriously, who?

The pizza connection got cooking in the late 70s 80s?

Would you name Pasquale Conte? Casso and Amuso? The Bonnano Sicilian wing? Frank Matthews had 22 states Ivey, don't just focus on NY. Even Barnes, I mean Harlem was ALWAYS the most lucrative territory in NY right?

Who would have been as big or bigger? Right after THE MAFIA DRUG RING got taken down ( the genovese -ormento group)...

@ Ralphie

I also can't help but notice, it seems your info about black criminals, it's like it's based off characters from a movie like O-Dog from Menace to Society. It just seems like you know NOTHING about actual black criminal organizations and such....

I agree that several factors fell into place at the right time that enabled the mob to become what it was. But it was able to take full advantage of those factors because of the self-perpetuating criminal tradition the Italians had. Otherwise they would have gone the way of the Irish and Jewish mobs.

Sure, establishing ones own supply for drugs is going to improve their position. Did they surpass any given family in the drug trade? Perhaps. But not the entire NY mob - especially if we're talking about overall power and not just position in the drug trade. And thats what the original post seemed to ask. And none of these guys had the kind of diversified criminal base any of the NY families had. A big reason they're all long gone while the Italian mob remains.

The thing is Ivey, drugs bring in more money than probably all the non drug rackets put together.

It's why I find the Godfather so compelling; Vito was so shrewd in that movie. He had the foresight to understand that drugs was similar to prohibition, but it didn't have the publics tacit approval, so it made his organization, more illegal than he wanted it to be. But even that could be overcome by just making bigger bribes because the money was more than anything he could come up with. Despite him having the unions, the politicians, the gambling, HE KNEW IF HE DIDNT CONTROL DRUGS IT WOULD BE THE END OF HIM.
I got to quote I think it was Big Head Brother, " Frank Lucas had NY, Matthews had 22 States!!" You still think he wasn't bigger than LOCAL NY narcotics traffickers?
You read about the top criminal organizations today, it's all drugs, nothing comes close, it's not even an argument and it's ALWAYS been like that...

The real thing that makes or breaks a drug gang is their level of sophistication when it comes to laundering the money, that's when their power really shows. That's what separates the Rizzutos, Calabrians...
It's why the cartels can't really get a foothold here on that level, as much money as they make, Wall Street, Big Oil, Big Pharmacy, all these huge industries, their money will always be cleaner, and easier for a politician to use and justify.

ive said this before, I don't think the " Hierarchy" keeps the NY mob in power so much as the DENSITY of NY as far as population and industry that keeps it alive. When you see cities like Cleveland or Detroit that lose an entire industry, (Steel and Auto industries)crippling the middle class(the people that gamble and drink, and go to night clubs and buy hookers and what ever else) this is the main cause of the decline of the mob in said cities. Esp a city like Cleveland with all the bombs and all that putting the FBI on everyone.
I've noted before how the hierarchy breaks down when narcotics get involved. There is favoritism, cross family alliances regardless of who's actually in charge, and more often than not, the drug guys usually move into the power positions, BIG PART OF THE TIME.. Look at all those long time wealthy " semi- legit " Bronx Luchesse guys, 2 heroin dealers trampled all over em. How does one explain this? Corleones taking over Palermo, Gotti winning over Castellano, Genovese winning over Costello, Casso and Amuso taking over.. There have been so many drug guys in a position of power....

Last few thoughts;

@ralphie


Again, I've never heard anyone say the Irish, or Jewish, or Russians,Albanians, any crime group didn't have the " brains" to start a Cosa Nostra. Because there isn't an ethnic group in existence today in America that could duplicate the feat of having the FBI just simply ignore them.
And if they did, you look at what I posted about Larry Hoover, give him 30 40 years free reign from the FEDs and tell me that organization would be not be something formidable, you are crazy, period.....
You give that guy control of weed in a given city like Chicago, no Feds, no Rico, and a whole mess of politicians with their hands out, I don't give a fuck if the guy is PURPLE WITH BLUE POCADOTS AND STRIPES, as long as young guys can go to the street get RICH with very little consequences, they will keep joining .......
Give a criminal organization control over a widely used, largely accepted commodity like liquor or weed, ignore them on a federal level, leave em all the income possible to corrupt the local and state level police and politicians, ooh and take out RICO please, man you don't have to be a criminal mastermind to win in this setup, come on man...

@ Ivey

Did you,actually,edit,your,post,to sound MORE prejudiced?

What's with all the hypothetical scenarios? What if so and so had been left alone? Let's just look at history, the things that did happen. FACTS!

The Irish, the Jews and the Russians have all GREATLY surpassed black organized crime groups in terms of power and influence. They don't have a mafia type structure, but they are certainly way more clever than most of the black gangsters. I could probably name you 50 major Jewish organized crime figures who've owned hotels, casinos and held major influence throughout the globe. We all know how powerful the Russians are and the Irish have had their share of impressive guys as well. There are no black gangsters like that. Yeah, some of them have made a lot of money through dealing drugs, but by the time they've reached 30 they're all doing life. Larry Hoover? Are you serious? The man has been in prison since he was 23. You're gonna compare him to Meyer Lansky?

There is a reason why African American organized crime groups are little more than footnotes in history books. Even Bumpy Johnson was an embarrassment.

Why does this matter so much to you? I would be happy if all the races didn't have smart gangsters. It's such a cancer in society. It's a blessing that the biggest morons in the black community want to be gangsters. The smart ones go to Harvard and become presidents.

Obama's a white man at heart.

What does that mean? I personally think he's one of the best presidents America has ever had.

die

@ralphie


1. No, you can't name 50 gangsters, I just don't believe you.
2. the Irish transitioned into politics, they left gangs alone a long time ago, the ones that didn't, who, the westies and the Winter hill gang? I'll give you the Canadian west end gang.
Fuck the gang of rats...
3. My point in naming those groups is that NONE OF THEM FORMED A COSA NOSTA STYLE ORGANIZATION, AND THEY WERE RIGHT THERE WITH THE ITALIANS, are they stupid too? Lump the Chinese in there too while you are at it.
4. I gave you a FUCKIN WALL OF FACTS, but kinda like Ivey you pick and choose what you wanna see.
5. What was the guy Giancana muscled out? The black Jones brothers, who had property in all kinda states and businesses and all kinda other shit, but again,you see what your blind eyes tell you..
5. Who the fuck compared myer to Hoover? You are the first to bring him up in this thread, don't put words in my mouth.. That whole thing was showing an organization making inroads into the City and State structure, be blind if you,want, but don't make bullshit stupid statements when you obviously don't know..


6. Where do y'all get this bumpy Johnson was nothing shit? I watched a documentary, where he stepped in for Luciano in prison. When Bumpy got out, and Trigger Mike, Fat Tony, and another one of those big Harlem gangsters told him he was out, Bumpy told em " Ask our friend if he remembers who did him a favor" or something to that effect', they gave him what was his, based off RESPECT
7. You say look at history, so look at it. Look at,prohibition, look at Hoover and his blind FBI
Soon as the Feds started putting Rico em, the BIG rackets started drying up, not the street rackets, the MAFIA rackets. The labor unions, the carting, construction is too big to control, plus it's corrupt,all over.
8. This is the SECOND time you show,up a thread and say some racial goofy shit, without actually even adding anything to the discussion, but I see you in threads fawning over a street guy like BobbyPazzo BECAUSE HES BEEN LOCKED UP, that's some clown shit right there....
9. I'm still,waiting for you guys to name ONE FUCKIN GUY FROM THE TIME PERIOD WHO,WOULDA BEEN BIGGER IN DRUGS, like do y'all have anything to,add beyond .... Nothing?

Jesus, it's like when smeary makes these cartel appreciation threads, photos and all, then ask, why are blacks so violent to each other? This shit is breathtaking, I see why Pizzaboy had to leave...

Bumpy Johnson stepped in for Luciano in prison? You are delusional if you believe that. Trust me my friend, the legend of Bumpy Johnson is a lie, concocted by discredited black historians who wanted their own Al Capone. He was referred to as 'that n---er' by the Italians. That shows respect? This guy couldn't even say no to a foot soldier without getting his head chopped off. He may have been revered by the local African American hoodlums in Harlem, but the Italians saw him as their bitch. They controlled him. Not the other way around.

I don't understand why you take this so personally. What is so great about any of these people? Smart or not, all of them are murderers and despicable human beings. I see nothing cool about any of this. I find it fascinating. I find BobbyPazzo fascinating. Except, I find it fascinating the same way I find animals in a zoo fascinating. It's sad and pathetic. You call that fawning? You're the one who seems to admire these clowns.

I've done nothing but state facts. The first time you started whining was when I said blacks were insanely more likely to commit murder than any other race in America, a fact supported by the FBI and the Department of Justice. You can call that 'racial goofy shit', but those figures don't come from me my friend. You need to learn to handle reality. Take a few deep breaths.

CabriniGreen: One.
Vs
RalphieCipharetto: Zero.

Hey ralphie , do you know me? Did I speak on your name and disrespect you? I know better than to get into a keyboard fight with someone across the country. You've come off ignorant and the more you speak the more foolish you sound. I'm fascinating like animals in the zoo? You comment on almost every thread. Who the fuck are you kidding like you don't got some fantasy about being in the street? Yea, I did time. I also moved the fuck on and left that shit behind me. For you to judge me or even speak about me in a derogatory way is out of line. You're heated because you've been exposed as a bigot and now your shooting recklessly. Like I said... I'm not gonna lose my composure because we'll never cross paths. I won't say another word after this. But do me a favor and don't speak on me. You don't know me and you don't know the first thing I'm about or stand for. I know where I'm from I can walk among any class of people and I have respect and i show the same until the situatuon calls for something different than that. Then, we may dance a different way. Not with you though. Goofball.

I'm not saying you're an animal. Hold your horses. However, I see nothing cool about going to prison. That is sad my friend. If you think that's cool then you need your head checked.

Did I fucking say it was cool? When the fuck did I glorfy that shit? Name one time I didn't say I regretted the shit I did and what it did to the people I love. I made poor choices. I was caught up in the facade of what the lifestyle is about or claims to be about. Where I'm from, it's extremely easy to fall into that trap. It's everywhere you turn in some way, shape, form, or fashion. You got it bro. Backpedal king over here. My story has never changed. Dont know where I lost you.

Very well said Ivy. I think a lot of the guys in here are very young and have seen too many of those movies.

I've never changed my tune or backpedaled, but when you assume someone is a racist for pointing out facts about black organized crime groups then I have every right to defend myself.

I am happy you turned your life around. Hope you do good.

And you basing that on what exactly? It would certainly seem narcotics are the single biggest money maker, based on published figures (even allowing for exaggeration) and statements by law enforcement over the years. But it's an assumption on your part to say drugs alone are a bigger money maker than everything else combined. And that's looking at the entire business as a whole. How much market share each drug dealer or drug organization has is going to vary.



I think you need to go back and watch the movie again. Vito Corleone never changed his opinion. From his meeting with Sollozzo to the meeting with the other bosses, his feeling was drugs would destroy the families because politicians and law enforcement would refuse to look the other way like they did with gambling, liquor, or prostitution. It was the other bosses, not to mention even guys in Vito's own family like Sonny and Tom Hagen, who believed drugs could give them (or their rivals) the means to buy more protection.



What relatively little information there is on Matthews includes information gleaned from wiretaps that his drug organization was doing business in 21 states. Now how big the market was in each state, and how much of the market he had, is a good question to ask. New York was always far and away the biggest heroin market. And, in terms of the sphere of the NY families at the time, you're also talking about New Jersey and some of the surrounding Northeast states.

Matthews, Lucas, and Barnes all operated around the the same general time frame - 1960's and 1970's. The French Connection lasted from the 1950's to the early 1970's and from there the Pizza Connection lasted to the mid 1980's. The $1.6 billion figure for the Pizza Connection is what prosecutors were able to document for the amount of heroin trafficked over a 5 year period between 1979 and 1984.

Nobody is denying all of those guys were big in the drug trade. But, while they were able to bypass the Mafia for their supply in some cases, that's different than saying they surpassed the Mafia, i.e. in terms of being higher up the drug chain or moving more drugs. And for the sake of argument, even if they did, their runs were relatively short-lived.



The existence of a population and industry which the mob can exploit is certainly a factor but it doesn't mean much if there's no mob to exploit it. The single biggest cause of mob families has been attrition - recruiting pools dwindling as Italian Americans moved into the mainstream of society. Look at any recent map of where there are the most Italians in the U.S. It's no coincidence upwards of 90% of the remaining mob membership is in the Northeast.



On one hand, I agree that no other group has had the benefit of so many factors coming together, and at just the right time, that the LCN had. Those were huge reasons for the mob's success. However, on the other hand, there's a reason why it was able to take full advantage of those factors. As I said before, the Italians had the self-perpetuating criminal tradition that the Irish and Jewish mobs didn't. Fast forward to today and the Italians (where they are still a factor) continue to have the hierarchy that many of the newer groups (Russians, Chinese, and Albanian criminal enterprises) don't. These newer groups are more horizontal and fluid, which makes them harder targets for RICO, but also prevents them from growing into the kind of organizations could make them into the kind of criminal threat that many in the past predicted.



I'm not sure what post you're referring to but I haven't said anything prejudiced in this thread.



Ralphie may be taking about how the Outfit moved in and took over the numbers racket in the black communities of Chicago in the 1950's.



I'm not sure where either you or Ralphie are coming from on this. For years, Johnson was the biggest black gangster in Harlem. But he ultimately answered to the Italians. If you ever read A Matter of Honor by the late NYPD offical Remo Franceschini, he talks about how they thought Johnson and other black gangsters controlled the numbers in Harlem. But, when they really investigated it, it was actually the Italians (mainly the Genovese family) who controlled the banks and really called the shots. Johnson was essentially their front man in the black community.



There's certainly a lot of truth to that. In New York, the garment center, food markets, airport, and Javits center are no longer factors. The mob is still involved in waste hauling and recycling but on a much reduced level and it no longer has the benefit of controlling the industry through associations (replaced by the NY BIC) and control of related Teamsters locals. It's maintained a presence on the waterfront, especially the New Jersey ILA locals, but they've taken a beating over the past 10 or 15 years. The one big exception, in my opinion, is construction (and related things like demolition and trucking). The nature of the industry - it's so much bigger, vast, and complicated than the others - provides the mob with seemingly endless ways to be involved. And there hasn't been the kind of widespread industry reform we saw the Giuliani administration do with garbage or the wholesale food markets. That's not to say the mob's clout hasn't been reduced in construction as well but it's far and away where their loss of power has been the most minimal and where they still have the most involvement. Long after everything else is gone, in terms of legitimate industry, the NY mob will still have construction.

stop judging someone you have never met know nothing about never even spoke to you know nothing about this guys life and he has never said that going to prison is "cool" i have known bobby for awhile and never has he ever said that infact he has always said he regrets his past so you know nothing about bobby and then you compare him to an animal so shut the fuck up if you want to argue with half of the board continue not my business but dont start judging someones elses life when you know nothing about him

i wont argue with you i have better things to do but i have said what I want to say

]



Cough.

I didn't compare him to an animal. Saying I'm fascinated with organized crime in the same way I'm fascinated with zoo animals isn't the same thing as saying that Bobby or those who've been to prison are animals. I'm sure some of these people are animals, but Bobby has made it clear that he's changed his life around and I have nothing but the utmost respect for him for doing so. Organized crime characters and zoo animals are two things that are extremely foreign to me, but both share hellish lives and the end is usually never pretty. That to me is sad and pathetic and that's the ONLY thing I meant by that comparison. I apologize for not wording this properly, but again, I have the utmost respect for Bobby and I wish him the very best.

I knew this guy would be exposed sooner than later

sad

Actually, you did compare him to an animal. That's exactly what you did.

Bobby is a good poster who doesn't deserve that shit.

I have no idea what he did, nor do I care. He served his debt.

I agree. He's one of the best posters here, but he completely misunderstood what I said.

How is this an argument? A couple drug crews versus 5 families all with 150+ guys? They might have made more drug money than the families but once you factor in bookmaking, shy, unions, legitimate businesses, ect it's not even close.

You could say that a thousand times and those kids in here wouldn't even be close to getting it. It's fun to see their responses though.

That's not the issue. The issue has been addressed.

Wow this blew out of proportions quickly. I wonder why it became 3 pages so quickly. Hopefully everyone will be level headed by now. Let's continue gentlemen...

@ Ivy
Speaking in the short time frame (late 60s to mid 70s) and specifically in the drug racket , I would say that only Frank Matthews Syndicate & to a lesser extent the North Carolina Mob was comparable or more than the NYC families drug business. Yes the NYC metro is the largest in our country but having an operation within 21 states is far more of a whale. North Carolina Mob I'm not sure but the revenues from their smuggling operation was vast as well. As it already been said by you and others that when including the other rackets it's not comparable in which I agree.
Now you have stated the Italians have that criminal tradition which your right and I have mentioned it in another post. The group's identity is an off-shoot from Siciliy and have been active for decades before coming to America. Criminal groups that been in existence for at least 20 years & spread to other areas tend to adapt to times. So your wrong in referring to the Chinese as new groups when they been active prior to LCN formation but just a looser or different hierarchy coupled with limited expansion ( they just don't care to leave Chinatowns). America's traditional groups will be the 1%ers, Prison Mobs, & Street Gangs. These are our homegrown groups that have no foreign roots.

@ CabriniGreen
Brother take a break , LoL. I've my numerous debates and enlightments on Black Organized Crime and the beat keeps on.

@ Ralphie
Black Organized Crime are footnotes mainly because the "scholars, police, Feds , & criminologist " of those times didn't believe it's possible due to the "Jim Crow" mentality. Therefore you have a tremendous lack of historic research that's overlook. YouTube "Black Mafia" by Sean Patrick Griffin and listen to how he stated that his peers reaction to his reaction. There's many active Black syndicates throughout the our country but they don't have an collective identity such as the " inset name of old age syndicate". Outside of the drug trade, Me & Scorsese have posted up different black groups focus on gambling, prostitution, murder for hire, chop shops, extortion, & fraud. On a worldwide scale you can't overlook the Nigerian syndicates since they spreaded out their networks faster than most other syndicates.

In regards to historical Harlem & Bumpy Johnson being the front for the Genovese, I could view that being true. Even though that was a short span for the Italians overall since the Black racketeers regain full control of the numbers into the rest of the 60s & so on.

I do have a question

was there ever time in the past where the Five Families combined could rival the Sicilian Mafia in power, influence, money etc.?

No. A 5 collective vs 100+ collective. Even when you the entire LCN it still doesn't compare in terms to size with the Sicilian CN.

Frank Lucas was a genius because no one knew who the fuck he was. I was around the heroin business since I was in my teens in East Harlem. I never even heard of Frank Lucas till the movie came out.

I knew of Nicky Barnes and I knew of Bumby Johnson. You most likely never heard of Philip Wu he went to my grammar school. He was another guy that bought his dope from the same place where Lucas got his dope.

A genius in the dope business is someone you probably never heard of not someone you have heard of.

ehh People knew who Al Capone was, and yet he still was extremely successful and only got caught on tax returns

The point I tried to make was don't get caught. You get caught when your picture goes on an FBI wall. Capone was not successful enough. He wound up in prison.

Absolutely. I think that the Five Families at their peak from the 1930s to the 1960s were bigger than the Sicilian clans in terms of power and influence. In the 1950s, Joe Bonanno and others were asked to help the Sicillians set up their own Commission. And when Luciano was sent back to Italy, he was hailed as a celebrity. Back then I think that the Italians looked up to the Americans and that alone says enough. That being said, I think that starting in the late 1970s the Sicillians surpassed the Americans on a global scale.

How old are you what has Obama done that was great?

Unemployment is down? They keep moronic unemployment records today. Let's say you can't find work and stop looking. To the government your no longer unemployed. Go on welfair and stop looking. Your no longer unemployed.

Remember he spent billions on shovel ready construction jobs that never were built.

The electric car government bought with tax payer money it went under.

That great peace deal with Iran?

We are getting the extra bathroom for transgenders. They are 0.03 percent of our population maybe.

Obama hates fracking it is a fact that fracking limits greenhouse gases.

This bozo did what for the country again?

Footreads, before you derail another topic with your Anti Obama shit, please tell me how fracking "limits greenhouse gases".

Ralphie poster said that. I was just answering him.

On the fracking thing what am I a scientist? Someone said it on the news. I am pretty sure Thrump will use it when he debates crooked Hillary.

If you are going to post scientific things, you might as well have evidence...

What you said is not true.

I'm aware the Chinese have been in the US since before they built the railroads. When I say "new," I'm doing so in the same context as the feds do when they refer to them and other groups as "new" or "emerging" to distinguish from "traditional organized crime" or the LCN. It's a context that deals more with the state of Chinese OC since the 1970s.

People over estimate the effect a president has short term on the economy . We are still in a debt bubble but the commercial piece has yet to pop , once interest rates start to rise (will take some time ) these companies will have to refinance at higher rates as most companies debt profile forces them to re fi and kick the can further down the road rather than pay off- this will further eat into profits and this pay and benefits. We have pulled a lot of future economic productivity forward and we can still barely grow , crazy .

Obamacare is not ideal but with our aging population it had to be done as companies post credit crisis just aren't providing the health care benefits they used to . If you think obamacare is bad , think 15 years from now where seniors are the biggest part of our population and over 30% have no health insurance.

Just wait until the pension crisis hits per the above - pension plans are basically bankrupt and 2% rates will just bankrupt them quicker - expect more chapter 9 bankruptcies to reduce pension obligations . While we don't have a perfect fix for health care at least most people will have it , I feel bad for future presidents as the retirement crisis is going to be a disaster - rich vs poor etc. etc.

A lot of our problems stem from a slow to no growth environment where the majority just aren't making $. It seems many of our problems are solved when our country grows as we get our 3-4% raises, our 401K is up and our home prices are up . With this I give Obama some credit as most of his focus has been on Asia - the one region that actually buys our goods and will be a partial solution to our economic problems - instead of focusing all our time on the Middle East and Russia whom do about nothing for us except soak our resources and energy. Wouldn't it have been nice to take the $3T+ on Iraq to have plugged our social security as that is something I don't think out country can do without and we will find this out soon enough unfortunately.

By no means a perfect president but I give him credit for thinking long term about the health care crisis and about reigniting our economy down the road via Asia . Perfect solutions ? Hell no but foundations to build upon ? Probably yeah . He was dealt a pretty crappy hand truth be told and I'm no democrat , just a realist that likes to figure things out rather than complain and blame someone which for som reason we seem to be doing a lot more of

Pension crisis will be a mess , really hope someone can figure that out

I recall reading somewhere that Matthews was supplied by LCN - some reason Ralph Tutino comes to mind - and his supposed Corsican pipeline was something that never came to fruition due to his untimely disappearing act. I'll try to dig up the source.

Where is your evidence saying it is not true means nothing without backing it up with scientific proof.

He did a lot of for America and the world. Below is a link where 358 Obama accomplishments are listed.

http://pleasecutthecrap.com/obama-accomplishments/

That's where I challenge the context of the FBI for using " traditional organized crime" and how are these groups " new"? Sounds like the FBI have been "overlooking" or " misjudging" these groups' activities. I don't understand the labeling of LCN as "traditional" when their roots aren't " American" but assimilated.

A lot of that stuff is fluff but the guy did some good , denying any president did anything good is just being a hater .

Btw while I think the Iraq war was our biggest policy mistake at least since the Vietnam , I fully supported GWB attempt to privatize social security as at least we would get something ( would of been an additional 12% of income per year and removing the long term liability from the govt balance sheet ) . Got to give him credit for trying to fix the upcoming disaster . Pension crisis could tear this country apart

I watched a recent interview of him, he claims he never sold drugs, he just financed it. Where he got his initial money he never spoke of. He really came of as an idiot, even when he was discussing basketball.

Its called saying alot but saying nothing at the same time. Doesnt want to implicate anyone in anything. He got his initial money from robbing jewelry stores

whats the consensus on this question?