I like how the Mexican cartel sicarios die for..

..their bosses.

In almost all or any criminal organization or organized crime group the captains and bosses of those organizations didn't have soldiers fight and die for their bosses. I like how the Mexican cartels soldiers basically die for their bosses and captains in street battles with the Mexican army. That's gangsta as shit, imagine minding your own business when suddenly you get a call to fight the Mexican army in the streets. You don't get to say goodbye to your family or nothing but you're ready for the mission to protect your captain or boss and die for them. These are what the cartel guys call "suicides" because they know they are going to die in their mission to protect their boss but are the most respected in the cartels because of their sacrifice. You have to respect that and their bravery

Nope. A child died saving his grandparent life is more respectable.

True but where did you get that story from. I meant respectable as in they aren't afraid of death like most people. You have to give them street credit for that. Every gangster in the world knows that reputation is everything. Without it they are nothing and may as well take a dick up their ass. I respect and are you with your message but you have to acknowledge the cartel's soldiers bravery. Most people aren't willing to die in a moment.

Why would I respect people dying on behalf of a drug organization? If anything, it's a sad waste of life.

There's a ton of crooks in our country that have the same type of loyalty and nobody batts an eye at them.

@ MightyHealthy
+100

Why would you like it? I find it very depressing.

They die for their bosses because if they don't then their families will be chopped up into little pieces. They don't give their lives to their bosses out of loyalty but out of fear.

SB, that's exactly what I wanted to write.

No honour among thieves.

Lol is this for real?

Really? I think its more to do with the fact that cartel bosses would mindlessly torture and slaughter their entire extended family. That's the reality.

EDIT: Didn't read the thread properly. Sonny Black's sentiments +1.

Not really. You have little knowledge about the Mexican Cartels. The reason they do this is because that's how it's the culture within the cartels. The brave live forever according to their songs. So the soldiers die in street battles with the Mexican army to try to rescue or impede the Mexican forces to capture their boss. This is unheard in any organized crime group I have read about.

What U.S street gangs goes into a shootout to rescue their crew boss or whatever. Many U.S street gangs aren't prepared to die for their bosses in a drop of a hat. What same type of loyalty are you talking about. All I see is snitches to get a lowerd sentence.

Take your pick since it's nearly any active street gang/mob. Back around 06 in Chicago, TVL & Breeds warring which resulted in many victims. During the back n forth shootings the police intercepted 2 New Breeda going on a hit and they died by gunning at the police. Leaders were giving orders in that conflict. There's plenty of numerous stories.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened before but it's not normal within U.S street gangs to do that. They usually just get arrested and some snitch and some not. Also U.S gangs don't have a structure like the cartels, most U.S gangs are just crews with no structure and the leader of the crew but that's about it. All I am saying it's not a common occurrence for street gangs to shootout it out with the police to defend their boss. In Mexico it's very common for the cartel soldiers to block highways, streets, and lay spikes to puncture the tires of the Mexican soldiers vehicles when they are about to capture someone captain or boss especially. It's an exception not a rule for U.S street gangs to shoot it out with the police to defend their boss. It very rarely happens.

Yeah and it's a good thing that it doesn't happen. If it happened in the US regularly it would be a sign that the society's culture has severely deteriorated.

Most street gang members in the US arent sucidial maniacs. Many of them are kids (OR were for sure a kid when they joined the gang)that despite their bad decisions would still like to be somewhere later in life. Some of their older homies would not expect them or encourage them to die for them. Atleast not in that way.. Which is actually a good thing.

Even if they did have that mentality, most of them wouldn't have the manpower to keep this up. Shooting at cops in the US brings on an unbelievable amount of heat on the gang. There's really no upside to it here.

That's a good point. No criminal group in the US is as big as the cartels in Mexico. It would be a short process indeed if they decided to shoot at cops or take on the army.

Some of those street gangs are structured but nonetheless it's a complete different situation over here then Mexico. I'm not going to say it's an exception because you still have areas where police know they could be ambush or going to a shootout . It occurs but not publicie like tha because it's usually short and it's not on the scale of course. My point is that there's always die hard loyal members that will engage police.

Just because there a few stories here and there about gangs members shooting at police doesn't mean it's a normal occurrence, it just so happens that criminals especially the cartels in Mexico have a more hardcore mentality and culture than U.S gangs. Most U.S gangs aren't suicidal maniacs like SoCal says. It's different countries where cultures are different and yes even criminal cultures are way different. I imagine most shootings with cops in the U.S are from patrol stops gone wrong where the criminal panics and shoot at the police. That is way different than criminals seeking out the police to murder them especially trying to rescue/defend their boss.

Sounds like an argument for prioritizing rehabilitation over incarceration.

Not really. It depends. Rehabilitation sounds good and all but it's very tricky.

I would argue that prevention is far more efficient in the long term.

Care to explain?

Do you have experience with rehabilitation of gang members (or attempts thereof) that you could explain in detail?

I'm not debating against you since we both understand the difference but reminding you that it's a normal incident. Think about how large the U.S gang population is and how many police shootings that happen each year. It's not that rare especially when you go back between the 60s-90s era. Black P Stones intentionally led a cop into an ambush in which he was killed . Supposedly it's a Stone "holiday " but i don't know it's true.

I'm going to leave this subject be now . You have your interest in Cartels.

@ smeary

I can't speak for today, but when I was coming up, growing up, you heard about guys shooting at police and paramedics on SIGHT, when you see this level of violence,, it's a sign that the legal authority is severely breaking down....here's a link you can check it out if you want...


https://youtu.be/uwHUSQI4FOM

Well, it depends what you mean by that exactly. Please explain to me how exactly this rehabilitation could or should work and why it would work.

Some people rehabilitate, some never will. It is pretty hard to know who is capable and who isn't, unless you know them them individually. Even then it is hard.

The problem I see is in how to actually successfully make it happen on a large scale. Yes I have seen it happen on a small scale, but there's a sample bias of individuals that seek help.

My concern would be with some sweeping attempt on a large scale, where it could be dangerous. Guys already in prison, career criminal types, will take advantage if they can to further their criminal activities. At this stage it becomes pretty difficult, although not impossible for everyone.

Just concerns I have. I'm open to any new ideas.

I do know gang members of all ages in life. I've seen plenty make it out and do relatively well, and many that of course don't. I'm more into prevention than anything else.

Do these guys go in to shootout with the police till the death or just warning shots. There is a big difference. I've seen this documentary before not impressed. Seemed like your average ghetto.

Well again man, I got a cousin who went to jail at 13 for BLAZING AT THE POLICE, this was something when I was coming up was a regular thing, that doc wasn't lying police were petrified of going there....
You make kinda weird threads, I don't really understand what exactly you are trying to say....

When there is a deterioration of authority, an abundance of poverty, a lack of legitimate alternatives, and an expansive black market, these things you mention are what usually happens, as far as criminal groups competing with the government. What I don't understand, I mean, people die for their gangs everyday, take 25-30 years for their gang everyday. But gang leaders usually aren't in control of borders where billions in merchandise are moved annually. If this was the case guys, if they were assured their families would be taken care of, would certainly Die for their gang, boss whatever, people die every day for nothing lol

Chris Coke in Jamaica, ton of power, took the whole government to take him down, same with Escobar in Colombia, Riina in Sicily, it's a repeating thing if you actually really study this stuff. I don't really get why you make it a racial thing, when really it's money and fear. Most of what you see is what happens when the government fails to establish a monopoly on the use of power. And this happens over and over in the poorest nations who are more vulnerable.

It's like when people compare street gangs to mafia families, kinda silly comparison. Why don't you look at other cartels to compare the Mexican cartels to, like the calabrians? Much more apt comparison, Imo..."

Also, I mean, I really wish people would do SOME KIND OF RESEARCH, or just stop saying silly shit like " gangs don't have structure". It's just like FACEPALM ALL DAY, just do some googles my man, lol you don't even have to take my word for it like good golly....
My man live in the Chi, a cartel city, they had Zambadas son in lockup in the loop, HE STRAIGHT UP SAID HE WAS A DEA INFORMANT and the government knew about it, how do you think El Mayo feels about that?

In fact, fuck this silly topic, I got real questions if you have the time and are willing to answer em. What exactly is the situation on the ground as far as the cartels are concerned. You are aware of what they are calling the Balkanization of the Cartels right? How they are fracturing into many smaller micro cartels, and becoming more of a local entity as opposed to intercontinental.What exactly I'sgoing on there right now, with Chapos mothers house getting shot up. Who ordered that? Rivals from within or without? Are he and El Mayo on the same page? Is Chapo in charge still, or are they transitioning to a successor. You mention their structure, if you feel like explaining it, I for one would love to hear it.
Are Chapos relatives major players? Are there emerging new bosses no one talks about? This stuff is WAAAAAY MORE INTERESTING than " I love the way their soldiers die", lol


I actually kinda believe you when you say a lot of it is in the culture, I've seen the reactions of many Mexican Americans when they talk of Chapo, he's the God of Mexico lol.but again it's not something unique to Mexico. I love the statement in the show Narcos, where the guy is like the people don't see Pablo as a drug dealer, they see a WINNER, I feel like you have a similar view on the cartels....

Prevention is difficult as they cut funding to schools, after school programs, sports programs, art programs, job training programs, affordable school and job training for parents, drug rehab and counseling for parents. If prevention is the goal, I can't see how eliminating these things help.

That's not the kind of prevention that works. Although I do think good therapy would be helpful for most people.

Prevention is much deeper than some government program that needs more and more funding.

Prevention would mean better parenting, peaceful and better childhoods, less traumatized people equals less violence and dysfunction later in life.

Fatherhood. Strong male role models maybe one of the most important factors. The feeling of belonging and being important to a social group.

Public education as it is today is also part of the problem. In my experience, public schools only help spread the problem of gangs and drug abuse. You don't learn much and it doesn't prepare you for making it on the market.

Doesn't need more funding, needs to be abolished completely. There needs to be a whole new paradigm shift.

Socal, I have to ask. Did you ever work with gangs? Counselor? Lawyer? Law enforcement? You know your stuff and seem highly educated.

Art programs?

The "great society" has failed America, the progressive ideology of taking care of "citizens" from cradle to grave for votes is the source of the problems America has today.

Throwing more money at the problem is a big government ethos designed to feed the bureaucrats while solving nothing. On the contrary, entitlements and disability programs pay the have nots to have less.

An 18 year old minority can not get a job because his/her mother has been collecting "crazy checks" for eighteen (18) years. Even if the said minority wants to get a job he/she cant because any income would disqualify the welfare queen from collecting that child's
"disability" check to the said welfare queen.

So please for the love of god do not bring that after school, education for parents, lets throw more tax payer - big government money bullshit.

Better yet, regale us with a solution that does not revolve around a tax payer, single payer health care system with some discussion of personal responsibility.

Better yet, I will provide a safe space for you to emotionally prepare a response to my many "micro aggression's" that will not end with you calling me a racist, bigot and/or white privileged male aged between 20 and 50.


Art Programs?

We'll go ahead and mark you down for "against funding after school programs". Fair enough?

I suppose if I told you guys I know people who greatly benefited from public school funding and social programs, you'd yell at me and call me names. I'm actually afraid to do it. The level of anger toward those things is intimidating. It's as if some people hate welfare as much as terrorism. Are they both the same? Assholes shooting hundreds of people at a restaurant the same as collecting a check that provides just enough to live in a crappy apartment? Same thing? Really?

You forgot the 18 year olds "majority " n their welfare queens .

I'll bet anything Sauce has either been on welfare, or someone close to him has. Always the case with these guys.

Thanks. No, never worked with gangs like that. I just grew up in and around it all and always liked to observe my surroundings. Took an interest in gangs at an early age, and I looked up to my dad and uncles, so it made it even more interesting.
Sort of became a hobby of mine to start researching more on my own too. It's been a lifelong thing for me trying to keep digging deeper into it all.

I know people that benefited from school programs too. Doesn't justify the entire thing.

alot of stuff works, for some. The question should be what works the best?

And yeah I probably do hate welfare as much as terrorism, seeing the destruction it caused is pretty devastating to so many people.

The welfare state has created so much single motherhood, so much dependency on the government system, and dysfunction in the traditional family structure.

But you're making a bad comparison by comparing a welfare recipient to a terrorist shooting people up. Well I can only speak for myself here. I don't hate any individual simply for being on welfare, I just hate the system itself and everything it stands for.

Politicians don't give a Fuck about poor people or minorities. They see us as their pet victims that they can bribe with free shit, crumbs they steal from tax payers and skim a bunch off to top which goes to bureaucracy.
I'm Mexican, I'd rather saw my own limbs off than vote for some democrat politician. But that's what we're brainwashed from day one to do.

The public school system makes me feel cheated. 13 years of my life I can't get back. Didn't learn shit, except a few statist propaganda history lessons.
It doesn't prepare you for the real world or the job market, not really when you think about it. And what's the typical response?? The schools need more funding ! Lol
Nah they need competition, they need kids to be free to be kids. Kids naturally want to learn shit that they're interesting in.. But force them to sit in a class for several hours per day and hear about shit they don't care about or even need to know about?? It's a scam.
It works for some but not for everyone. And for the majority of people where I come from, it doesn't work at all. It was mostly designed to create obedient little workers bees back in the 1800s. It's time to get away from that mentality.

Schools are just mini prisons, you're forced to show up, told when to break and eat and when you can leave. Gangs easily spread like wildfire as do drugs. Bullying, peer pressure, all this uneccsary shit.

I just hate any one size fits all approach. I'm humble enough to know that I don't have all the answers, and different people have different needs. That's my beef with government programs and throwing tax money at problems. It's just one hammer that sees everything as a nail.

Where'd you get your learnin', SoCal? You seem well read. Any college?

Barack Obama was raised by a single mother.

He graduated from Columbia and Harvard, eventually became president.

I tried college for a semester and hated it and left. Always hated school, still do.

All the stuff I learned is just from my own researching and thinking on subjects I'm passionate about.

He's one guy and exceptions don't change the rule.

And he's a politician, not something to brag about in my book.

But I'm not very conventional to say the least.

You learned how to write that good on your own? You must have a high IQ. Did the homies give you a hard time for that growing up?

My point on Obama being, he was raised by a single mother and he's not some kind of gang banger. You can give him that much, can't ya? Never mind graduating from two Ivy League schools and becoming president. He's not out there robbing people, which is impressive considering he had no dominant macho man role model to teach him how to be a manly man, or whatever.

I inherited a lot from my father. He's a pretty smart guy, yet even he fell into gang life at a young age. While most gang members aren't super bright, I've always noticed every hood has its intelligent members. It's always fascinated me how some intelligent people would choose the lifestyle.
My writing and stuff is just from years of posting on forums and feeling inadequate among people that were more articulate with their posts and being able to express themselves.
Net banging gets old fast and I quickly realized ideas are more powerful than shit talking and threats.
Nobody's ever given me a hard time for being ( what I consider to be) a thinker. Some people love it and others I just keep my thoughts to a minimum simply because it bores certain people. Atleast in person. The Internet is a different story.

Yeah I get what you're saying about Obama.

A lot of people can do fine without a father. But a lot more struggle. Obama had the intelligence to break through but not everyone is that fortunate.
There's an anger and bitterness in so many people that grow up without their father. Then there's the over compensation of hyper masculinity that comes with it. Where you end up looking up to the wrong men in the neighborhood. Thinking its manly to solve problems with violence and all that, instead of being shown a version of manliness that means good work ethic, healthy assertiveness, putting family first and being honest.

I also knew a lot of people growing up that were raised by single mothers, and they're doing fine. I grew up in a middle class suburb. So, environment and quality of public schools could have something to do with it. We all went to public schools, btw.

I'm talking about the culture within the criminal groups in Mexico vs the U.S, Italy and maybe Colombia. I'm talking about the culture within Los Zetas and Gulf Cartel, both Los Zetas and Gulf Cartel have this paramilitary/police culture of shooting it out with the Mexican Army/Marines when their bosses or captains etc. are about to get captured. Sinaloa didn't do this nor the Cali or Medellin cartel, I'm talking about criminals openly shooting it out with the authorities/army like with Coke did in Jamaica where 80 of his soldiers died in open shootouts with the police. This type of suicide mentality rarely occurs in the U.S within gangs and even in other countries were organized crime groups are very powerful. How many people died for Escobar in a shootout with the police in effort to rescue him or Tito Riina. Mobsters in Italy weren't shooting it out in the open streets riding in bullet proof trucks shooting at each other and the authorities or even made an effort to rescue their bosses like Los Zetas and Gulf Cartel routinely does. Both Los Zetas and Gulf Cartel call the guys call their sicarios that shoot it out with army "escolatas suicidas" or suicide squads because they know they are going to die in their mission to rescue their boss. Being a victim of a murder while being in a gang doesn't necessarily they died for their gang. Because they didn't chose to die. Is like me comparing the murders of halcones "lookouts" by sicarios with the suicide squads of the Gulf Cartel and Los Zetas as being the same or at the same level. How you been to Mexico? If you have you will see the army and would shit your pants thinking the Gulf Cartel or Los Zetas go in shootouts with them.

Yes I am aware of Zambada's testimony but the whole cartel Balkinization is an overstatement. Most of the cartel fragmenting has occurred in the southern states in Mexico where the cartels historically haven't had a foothold. In the northern states the major players are still active and are responsible for the majority of the drug trafficking into the United States. I personally think the major cartels will fragment into regional cartels but there will still be players involved in intercontinental drug trafficking like in Colombia. The "end" of the Medellin and Cali Cartels didn't prevent from new organization from rising from the ashes to drug traffick into the European markets same thing will happen to the Mexican cartels.

Also nobody in Mexico views Chapo as a hero, it's actually the contrary.

Now THAT my man is a good post, informative and gives us an idea of what's going on on the ground over there, cause you can't completely depend on the media.

We got guys from NY, Jersey, Boston, Philly, Furio from Naples, I think? Real good posters and contributors, you could keep the boards enlightened on Mexico like BlackFam does with the street gangs, you might be underestimating your potential contributions to the board......

The mexicans are looked at as being garbage by everyone. The mexicans are basically low lives, unsophisticated, and dirty; that includes the chicano gangs.
The colombians on the other hand are much more sophisticated and actually worked with other LCN groups. The colombians are also more educated than mexicans.
The mexicans are better to deal with than blacks but still are looked at as scum.
In fact, most mexicans are very ugly people and unsophisticated. Just look at how the mexicans live. You ever see a nice mexican neighborhood? They dont exist. They kind of live like animals. Again, a tad better than the blacks though.
The mexicans are no doubt an inferior race, there is no disputing that.

Clown.

LMAO This shit is funny!

I don't know what to say to all that!