If Chin was so powerful, then why........?

Did he fail to take out Gotti after 1986's bombing?.......I know he tried 4-5 months after the Castellano hit but, I don't fully understand what happened after that?

I assume that Gigangte had a very hard time finding someone willing to sign their own death certificate but Amuso and Casso are those kind of guys......So my assumption is that he had trouble finding anyone willing to take the contract on.

Were any attempts made to hit Gigante from Gotti? Only because I assume he HAD to know who set it in motion.

I have also seen that surveillance photo of Gotti,Gravano,Amuso and, Casso from 1988 at the Hamilton House. ...That also confuses the heck out of me....."Hey John, I know I blew your best buddy to smithereens but no hard feelings, were still cool, right? Fist Bump?"

Probably was a hard target with the Feds on him. They did get Eddie Lino in '90. Gotti, IMHO, was lucky that he went in in 12/90 otherwise he would be like a troll on Gangsterbb.....Gone!

The bomb went off in Apr 86, Gotti was on trial in Aug.
and again in 89 before convicted in 92.

Most likely Chin saw the writing on the wall and said why bother.

Sonny I found this:

"On December 11, 1990, FBI agents and New York City detectives raided the Ravenite Social Club, arresting Gotti, Gravano and Frank Locascio. In the back of the police car, Gotti remarked 'I bet ya 3 to 1 I beat this'. Gotti was charged, in this new racketeering case, with five murders (Castellano and Bilotti, Robert DiBernardo, Liborio Milito and Louis Dibono), conspiracy to murder Gaetano "Corky" Vastola, loansharking, illegal gambling, obstruction of justice, bribery and tax evasion. Based on tapes from FBI bugs played at pretrial hearings the Gambino administration was denied bail."

I wonder how "involved" the Genovese were. Casso didn't speak directly with Gigante IIRC, he took his marching orders from Corallo and Christy Tick at the time of the bombing.

Not to say they didn't want Gotti dead. They warned the Gambinos that someone would pay for Big Paul, and at least one hit attempt was picked up on wiretap and taken seriously enough for the FBI to warn Gotti.

Lino's death most likely was due to the Casso/Paradiso beef that led to the hit attempt on Casso.

Gotti wasn't an easy target, always had a few heavy guys around him. FBI following him everywhere and media attention, very risky.

Chin did make his move and in a smart play, he had convoy to Corallo that an explosive should be used to lay blame at the Sicilians were behind it. It worked can the Gotti and the rest of the Gambino family members that were loyal to Gotti did not know who was behind it, and immediately suspected Sicily. We know that Jimmy Brown and Marino in the Gambinos had a hand in it. Gotti beefed up his security after that. Gotti only found out that the Chin was behind the hit after he was paid a visit by the FBI after they caught Bobby Manno of the Genovese family on tape a few years later in his New Jersey hangout talking about how to get Gotti. After that Gambinos, Genoveses, and Lucchese administration members had that meeting in the underground garage. On the surface it looked like hostilities had ended, but Vincent was only giving lip service after Gotti tried to control the Commission vote at that meeting. The Chin was able to kill Johns bodyguard and driver, a powerful soldier who was a good earner for Gotti, and an associate with connections in construction unions. The Lucchese were able to kill a Gotti drug dealer from the Bergin crew, and kill Eddie Lino. John did not know that Vic and Casso were after him until Casso flipped. Lino was the last one killed as Gigante knew Gotti would not be able to walk away from his last arrest. The Chin was surrounded by men he could trust as bodyguards.

I don't recall where I read this, but Bobby Boriello, a very close confidant of Gotti was executed in '91 on orders of Casso because at that time, Boriello had been identified as a possible shooter in the Castellano hit. Anybody have anything on this?

Lino was killed a month before Gotti's arrest.

Gotti was the Gambino boss coincidence that he was unable even to kill Costello on the orders of Genovese!

So what would have to do ?

Declare war to the Gambinos ?

So the Genoveses-Lucchese against Gotti ?

Massino was with Gotti and imo also the Colombos ?

Come on what saved Gotti was that he was the boss and have more loyalist to was impossible a coup d'etat

In addition to what others said about Gotti being difficult to hit because of his big entourages, as well as the FBI and media often around, he was just lucky. He cancelled his meeting at Failla's social club at the last minute so didn't get blown up in the car with DeCicco. And he was lucky that the feds had a bug in Casella's Restaurant in Jersey, where they overheard the plot to kill both John and Gene Gotti, and warned him in advance.

I think Giacomo has it generally correct. My understanding of when things happened, and who knew what and when is outlined below.

Frank DeCicco was blown up in April, 1986. Chin, Carollo, Casso and Amuso are the masterminds behind it, as retribution for Gotti killing Castellano.

In Sept, 1986, Gaspipe Casso is shot twice by the Gambino hit team (James Hydell, Nick Guido and Robert Bering). The hit is believed to be unauthorized by Gotti. It is believed to have been ordered by Angie Ruggiero and Mickey Paradiso due to a beef over heroin money.

In the summer of 1987, Bobby Manna is recorded by the FBI discussing plans to kill John and Gene Gotti in the bathroom of Casella's restaurant in Hoboken. Bruce Mouw and George Gabriel go to Gotti's house and warn him that his life is in danger, and that it is the West Side (Chin and the Genovese). Gotti takes the information seriously, beefs up security and alters his routine.

Casso, Amuso, Gravano and Gotti meet on August 12, 1988 outside Hamilton House (great FBI surveillance poto). I am not aware of any disclosures on what was discussed. I do not recall if Gravano testified about the contents of this meeting. If anybody has info, please share.

In late 1988, an abbreviated commission meeting is held in the Washington Square Village apartments in Greenwich Village. In attendance were Gotti, Gravano, Amuso, Casso, Mangano and Gigante. During this meeting, they claimed to have no hostilities to one another. According to Gravano, Chin dismissed the Manna recordings and subsequent Gotti warning from the FBI, that they were "renegades" and acting without Chin's permission. Gravano claims that Gotti was not fooled.

They also discussed giving commission seats back to the Columbos and Bonnano's. Vic Orena was added but Massino was not due to Chin's concerns about them both being allies of Gotti.

I am not sure if Chin, Casso and Amusa made any direct attempts on Gotti after this meeting. They (Chin, Casso and Amuso) certainly went after people close to Gotti after the meeting. Eddie Lino was killed by the mafia cops in Nov, 1990. Bobby Boriello was hit in April, 1991. I think the mafia cops were also asked to hit Junior Gotti and Nicky Corozzo in 1993, but I am not sure if that is true or speculation.

Most of the info above comes from Raab's book, The 5 Families.

Ah, maybe the team of FBI agents around Gotti scared them off, heck Gotti had to be the safest guy in LCN history with an agent always within 100 yds of him

There's this from Capeci:
"Three weeks ago, the FBI warned reputed Genovese boss Vincent "The Chin" Gigante of an alleged plot by Gambino boss John Gotti to assassinate him.
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The sources said warnings of Gotti's retaliatory plot were delivered by FBI agent Damon Taylor to Gigante's brothers - Mario, a reputed crew member, and the Rev. Louis Gigante, a former city councilman now affiliated with St. Athanasius Church in the Bronx.

Taylor, the supervisor of a "Genovese squad" that has been investigating the 60-year-old Vincent Gigante for five years, declined comment.

Louis Gigante, who has denied his brothers have any organized crime ties, could not be reached for comment.

Authorities also have warned a key Gigante aide, Dominick "Baldy Dom" Canterino, that his life may be in jeopardy. Canterino was sentenced last year to 12 years in prison for extortion but is free pending appeal.

Sources said FBI agents notified Canterino's lawyer, Michael Pollack, that Gotti's hit squad had set its sights on him. Pollack declined comment.
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Sources refused to say whether the plot against Gigante had been picked up on a bug or wiretap."

http://articles.philly.com/1989-02-27/news/26153845_1_john-gotti-louis-gigante-genovese-crime

The article cites that Gotti was warned at his Brooklyn home, eh?

Ya gotta love the feds don't ya ??

Bruce Mouw says its the law to warn somebody if there's evidence their life is danger...Okay, fine...Mr. law and order, by the book Bruce Mouw...

Where in the law does it say that you tell the intended victim who wants you killed ??

In my opinion what he did was try to get more people killed, and maybe finally get Gotti on something.

Yeah, they got that wrong. Gotti lived in Howard Beach, which is in Queens.

I see the release date for the new Chin book has been pushed back to November.

Nick rizzuto sr was killed with a si per rifle ?

Nobody in the Genovese family had a si per rifle?

Gotti could easy shoot during when was walking and talking of bussiness?

Sign their own death certificate? They weren't scared of gotti, they were scared of the heat he brought on the mob. Like another poster mentioned, Chin knew that Gotti would bring himself down so there was no point making another attempt on his life and bring more heat on himself. In regards to Casso Gotti was pretty scared of him just like Demeo.

I agree with this.

Eventually Gigante would have gotten Gotti. But Gigante probably wanted to build a majority, or dominant minority, within the Gambinos, who would be supportive of the regime change.

It takes time to build that kind of political power.

And there is added difficulty when you have a self appointed boss who kept the capos of the Gambino mob on a very short leash.

Sniper rifle is good BUT u would stick out like a sore thumb using that in Manhattan

Too many witnesses and people around/ it's not easy to snipe a moving target with 100
People around plus bodyguards and cars

Rizzuto on otherhand was cooking in the kitchen alone with his wife and daughter. Plus the shooter had cover from the big garden/ bushes

Great point I was just thinking the same- protocol has it they are not supposed to disclose any further info other than "your life is in danger, we are here to help if u want to talk. Have a good day sir"

The Feds were obviously trying to stir the pot

The only reason Gotti took the threat seriously in the first place is because the Feds pinpointed the Westside as being behind the threats. That's how he knew it was serious.

So I don't really get where people are coming from. If the Feds didn't elaborate & substantiate on the threats and Gotti got killed then people would be complaining as well anyway.

So once he was told this by the Feds what did Gotti do?

ZERO, he punked it let more guy get killed, even left his son in the street clueless.

As you said Tony if gigante wanted so much to kill gotti could easly but a si per in the Bush near gotti home or near his club or wherever he go until gotti would die.
At the end Chin understand that kill gotti will be worst for the bussiness and stop trying. The $$$ at the end saved gotti.

IMO what saved Gotti was getting arrested by the Feds in 1990.

that is right, also gas getting pinched and flipping..if that does not happen a lot more gambino's get killed

Actually I think he was sitting down eating when the shot occurred but I could be wrong.

Either way you are right on the shooter. Had to be messy to kill him in front of his family like that.

I've often wondered about the credibility of Casso's account, to be honest. Testifying against Gigante would have been his best shot at getting the "Sammy deal" he was hoping for, and he went off the rails after he wasn't used at Gigante's trial.

I wonder if the Veterans and Friends bombing was more of a Corallo/Furnari thing, with Chin doing little more than nodding his head.

I remember Casso said it was at someone's house chin meet with ducks and even thou they didn't love Paul he was a boss. Wasn't the bomb guy one of the west sides loaned out to Vic n gas. Good plan. I still don't believe ducks or chin would have let anyone brown or Marino in that family know there's a hit on gotti. It would just great creatcreate mistrust between families. They seen Colombo turn on Joe bonanno and the profaci guy. No need to let another family now.

Yeah, the bomb expert was a Genovese associate. Chin and the Genovese were the driving force to kill Gotti. When Mouw showed up to Gotti's house, he didn't say the Luccheses were the ones out to get him.

here is an interesting article from Capeci on the bombing:

"Apparently, the effort to divert suspicion away from the real killers worked, according to an account of a conversation later that day between Gotti and then-capo Salvatore (Sammy Bull) Gravano, obtained by Gene Mustain and myself. The conversation appears in our book, GOTTI: Rise and Fall.

"The bomb was fuckin' something," said Gotti. "The car was bombed like they put gasoline on it. You gotta see the car. You wouldn't believe the car."

"I saw it John," said Gravano, "I pulled Frankie out."

"I heard, Sammy. I heard it was too late."

"Who the fuck did it?" said Gravano.

"I don't know...Who the fuck knows?" said Gotti.

"Chin?"

"Nah, he wouldn't use fuckin' bombs, he'd want you to know. It's some renegade element."


http://www.ipsn.org/characters/DeCicco%20Bombing.htm

I always heard the bomb was used to make him think it was the Sicilians. But which Sicilians in particular? The Cherry Hill group?

I think a good indication would be, when exactly did Gotti bump John Gambino to capo?
The timing would give a clue as to his level of trust at certain points. After the FBI told him the Genovese were after him, maybe he felt he could relax a bit around the Sicilians and to solidify his position with them made him officially a capo.

It might be too late a time line though, the Manna thing was like, what 88?

Actually, nah none of the times match...