Biggest loan sharks

I've heard of LOmbardozzi, Ruby Stein, Joe Butch, any other guys this level?

Im not trying to sound like a fan but the Chicago mob had way bigger juice operators than thouse guys. People like Fiore Buccieri, Sam Battaglia, Sam DeStefano, Jimmy Allegretti, Lenny Patrick, Joe Arnold, Al Pilotto etc.

Joe Watts was huge.

I agree. He was hung like a moose.

He was a pretty big loan shark too.

Lol

Frank Tieri was said to be the biggest loanshark in the nation.



Based on what?

Based on the territories and time periods. These guys had juice operations not only in Chicago, but they also had in Indiana, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Arizona, Dallas, Miami, Vegas and even LA etc. As for time periods, Lenny Patrick for example, was big in the juice business from the late 1940's untill the late 80's.Thats almost 40 years.

You are right about Tieri. I also read somewhere that he was maybe one of the biggest juice operators in the country

Tony plate in miami

Tieri was considered the biggest loanshark in the country. Not "probably" or "one of." And there was more mob action in the NY metro area than the rest of those areas combined.

Genie Gotti's still got a lot of money out on the street apparently.

Dellacroce had a huge shy biz

What do you think how much money didi he have on the street?

As far as Tieri, was that in his "personal" capacity, or was it simply the fact that he was the underboss/"boss" of the largest crime family in the largest Mob city?

It seems like, technically, any administration guy would be a big loan shark, simply because they fund all the little sharks (and I imagine any captain late with his envelope is getting charged points as well).

I don't think anyone knows how much money any mobster had on the streets. NY was a huge market but it also had more wiseguys than the rest of the country combined.

So you wanna say that the crime group who had the gambling racket on the midwest locked up, had less juice action than the NY metro area?! I was going to ask you "based on what" but i realized that your answer has no point at all. So its better that we just disagree on that and leave like it is. cheers

Probably both. The NYPD seemed to be talking about Tieri specifically. But it could also have been by extension considering the family always had the largest gambling and loansharking operations.

I really don't think there is more action in NY than in like 8 or nine states..
More action in NY than any other city, sure, but not like 8 or nine whole states...

This: There are like what 1000 made guys and let's say 5000 associates? These guys are all going to be canibilizing the same markets, this is why gangsters go out of state.
It's like New YOrk drug dealers that cop in ny cause the price is cheap and there are suppliers, but move it outta town, and make more than a dealer that stays local.

It would be naive to assume the ny dealer makes more JUST cause he's in ny.
Like if you said Tieri had 20 million on the street, that's why he was the biggest, but you just say he was the biggest in ny, and that came from nypd right? But that's a NEw York perspective...
That guy I mentioned, I think ruby stein, I think in murder machine he was killed by the Westies, I think he handled big time book for like multiple families, Colombo, genovese, I might be confusing him though, don't have the book in front of me.
If I'm not mistaken castellano and funzi had a sit down over it. In fact I read the westies kept the book, and started to pick up the loans. This is what I mean, the competition in ny is fierce, it's not taken into consideration a lot I think...
i actually do think the biggest sharks were like from the 50s and whatnot, they had a lot more liquid capital sitting around....

I think this makes more sense, you gotta have a lot of spare cash to be able to put enough of your own on the street to be the biggest out there, or establish an abscence of competition...

You are absolutely right. Take Vegas for example, you had rich people comming from all of the country, including the East Coast, spendning hundreds thousands of dollars daily and in the end when they all got dried up they would've lend money from the loan sharks.And who were the guys that lent them the moeny?The Chicago guys. The best victims for the loan shark racket are the degenerate gamblers and high rollers. So if you combine all of their gambling and juice operations in Chicago, Vegas, Indiana, Wisconsin, Arizona, Miami etc. it gives you the picture that it was a helluva good business for the organization. Thats why the Outfit always fought to get the gambling business under its wing because the ugly cousin of the gambling racket is the juice racket. Its a very good combination. Wherever the Outfit had its own casino or any kind of gambling joint, they also had their own juice men. Plus the fact that the Outfit was one organization, not five different crime families

Jiggs Forlano, how big was he?

This,link says in the 60s he was the biggest in ny with ruby stein;
https://books.google.com/books?id=trFcGY...ano&f=false

I'm thinking when jigs died in 77, ruby stein went with funzi, so they put funzi top Shylock, then stein gets killed in 77 as well and that book gets lost, or at least bled off to the GAmbinos, it's the only reason I think ROy and those westies survived that sit down. Castellano went to bat for em cause he wanted that shy book, and whatever else action the westies had going, plus they were a work crew too.
So really FUnzi just had the top loan shark with him, Stein had millions on the streets, was known for years as a shylocks Shylock, I sorta remembered all this when Ivey brought him up.
Like for the time period, esp with the westside, didn't catena and Salerno make the Forbes list? Ianiello had like 80 clubs or some shit right?
They woulda had way more money for the street right?
Making him the Top loan shark cause he was head of the family?
But wasn't he technically not even head of the family?
If that is the case, castellano stole cars, lucky ran whores, you know what I mean?

And that was a great mention with buccieri; Anyone who hands out loan officer cards to unemployed workers, with complete confidence in his terror to get money out of em should be considered a Shylocks Shylock...

The main thing for being a good loan shark is that people have to be very scared of you and Buccieri was one of thouse loan sharks. His reputation always preceded him and if you think about it the most scariest mobsters were the most sucessful juice men. Mad Sam was also a lunatic and everybody knew that,Battaglia was also very agressive guy same as Patrick.

Mad Sam loved when his debtors couldnt pay their debt so he can kill them

Even as an old man and high in stature, Battaglia still used to chase debtors on streets and used kick the shit out of them publicly

Lenny Patrick once said during a court session "Yes. I am the dirtiest thing living on Earth. I don't have feelings for anybody. Everybody's so afraid of me they shiver when they see me. They put on an extra coat."

People (usually posters from other cities) often say that the NY families were/are always fighting over the same pie but what they don't seem to realize is the size of that pie. Aside from Chicago, everywhere else Tooped listed was a relative cow town compared to NY. The kind of money a guy like Tieri would be handling, individually or in his family, would typically dwarf that of just about anyone else outside NY. But believe what you want.

By the way, nobody said Tieri was the top loanshark just because he was head of the family. You cant put too much stock in that Forbes list for several reasons. And Tieri inherited one of the crews that stemmed from Mike Miranda and Vito Genovese before him. He controlled huge gambling and loansharking operations throughout New York City, extending to New Jersey and even Florida, Las Vegas, and California.

Sorry what was the year when Tieri became boss?

And i dont think that this guy had any huge operations during the 50's or 60's. After that it doesnt matter anymore. And could you please elaborate with us on your statements like "they don't seem to realize is the size of that pie" and "a relative cow town compared to NY". And also i would like you to elaborate with us about Tieri's personal interests in Las Vegas casinos. Im not trying to break your balls but im ready to post a list of gambling and loan sharking operations of the Outfit during the 50's and 60's, so i was curious if you can give us some specific infos about Tieri's personal alleged multi-million dollar operations around the country during that same period?

What can I elaborate on that I already havent? Anyone who talks about all the NY families fighting over the same territory, aside from obviously having a poor understanding of mob history, seriously underestimates just how big the NY metro pie is - especially compared to anywhere outside the region. And why on earth would you think he didn't have any big operations in the 50s and 60s? You and Cabrini talk as if Tieri was a piker until he became the official underboss/acting boss in the 70s. And Tieri's bookmaking and loansharking operations extended out to Vegas. I don't know if he had any interests in the casinos.

Anyways, feel free to post whatever list (hopefully sourced) you want. The Genovese family has always been considered to have the largest gambling and loansharking operations in both NY and the country as a whole.

And its allways considered the carlo gambino was the strongest boss and had the highest number of soldiers in his time period,and surley he had a lot of top loan sharks.Also Anthony accardo was one of the greatest bosses to ever live and the outfit was very powerfull in its time,also Nicolas jiggs Forlano was one of the biggest loansharks and a tone of others.Why do you allways pick the west side soldiers as the best at everything,west side this west side that,allways those guys.There are the rest of us who favor the west side but we are not obsesed with them.I dont feel the need to point to the west side all the time...
Im sure that they were not allways at the top of their game,and in one time were 2nd to the Gambinos.Whats wrong with that?
Dont mean to attack you,I have a lot of respect for you.And Toodoped I admire you knowledge too,great job.

there is no answer because the biggest loansharks from the 50s and 60s none of you are going to have any idea how big they were. There was prob guys you never heard of and others who were exaggerated or where underestimated either way most of the so called "facts" fro that generation are guesses anyway that's me done from this topic

It's not about having an obsesssion withe the West Side. I've never even been to NYC and don't get a stipend for talking them up.

The original question was about the biggest loansharks. Tooped offered his opinion that certain guys in Chicago were the biggest at certain periods though his reason for thinking that way is largely speculative from what I can tell.

The NYPD considered Tieri the biguest loanshark in the country. I find that believable due, not only the size and extent of Tieri's own operations, but also vecause the family has always been said to have the biggest gambling and loansharking operations.

Do we even have a statement from law enforcement saying something similar about anyone in Chicago? Not that I know of. If someone has sourced info they can enlighten me with, please do.

Patriarca underboss Jerry anguilo was huge even threw out his 20 yrs in prison people still borrow and most pay back. Going to see blackmass tonight with my girl I wonder if they'll focus on the mafia lending 250k to winter hill to back there book. I just smiled threw my DVR of dateline prison breakout that shit is insane. Also that guy Jerry in Boston just huge but it all comes down to a regional thing. I'm surprised Frank Teri was the biggest but it make sense I would have thought c gambino first. Maybe salerno.

Jimmy Caci in LA and Nick Marangello in Brooklyn.

Ivy i have much respect for your posts and opinions and im saying this because i dont want you to feel that im taking part in some dick measuring contest. I know that you have quite a knowledge for the Outfit and i believe that you are aware about their past operations in Chicago and around the midwest. The juice racket was one of their prime rackets and belive me they were national. Im not talking about some part of the organization but im talking about as a whole. They even offered services of fixing court cases for a price. Im sure that you heard about the story when crooked cops used to drop off people that they arrested over to DeStefano so they could get some of the bribe money. Also as Cabrini pointed out, Buccieri was giving out loan officer cards. The Outfit's juice operations in Chicago were reduced during the mid 1970's because of some juice operation cases that occured during that period. So they transferred their racket mainly to Vegas and other cities. But during the late 1980's Lenny Patrick was still making quite good cash ammounts for Carlisi from the juice racket in the Chicago area.

Im not saying that Funzi wasnt maybe one of the greatest loan sharks in the country but i want you to understand that the juice racket was one of the prime operations for the Outfit in the past and there's no other way that an organization like the Outfit would've survived for so long if they werent national. Anyway i think that the NYPD were the ones that stated Tieri was the biggest loan shark in the country and that was said when he was under indictment. So we all know that the cops always say things like that so their "victim" can look even scarier in the eyes of the public.

@alexandarns thanks for the regards and i really appreciate your opinions and support

Very true T. the feds tend to do that.

I doubt the NYPD would know who was the biggest loanshark in the country when they never investigated any organized crime figures outside of NYC.

The NYC area is huge but they also had dozens of huge loansharks. Most of Brooklyn was under the Colombos and Gambinos back then.

Right, they were building a Rico case, and how would NYPD know who was the biggest in the country? Makes no sense...

Also, you kinda ignored the ruby stein thing... He was the big loan shark, first with jiggs, then with funzi , every one has read murder machine, I know you remember that thing with the Westies..

I love how you say people don't understand how big ny is, when I'm born and raised in Chicago and have been to ny a few times and you have never been there, lol, you are killing me..
Like how can you say posters from other cities when you are one?
And you are so wrong, these guys do fight over the same pies, perfect example is the construction racket. Gravano talked about it in his book, how it was becoming a bubble that would burst, cause all the families were involved.
Tieri lost a sit down to Tony BAnanas over gambling and sharking right? In jersey, but he has operations nationwide? Then why fight over that when he has operations dwarfing that in New York, which is so superior a territory?
My issue isn't with tieri being a sharks shark, it's like someone else said, you kinda just like
The west side, to the point that you seem to take offense if anyone says anything about some one rivaling New York in like, any damn thing lol, and you ain't even from there, that's why it's funny..

No my problem was you didn't mention any of that in your initial response;
You just kinda took offense to the fact someone mentioned a bunch of Chicago loan sharks being in the same league as some New York ones, and that doesn't make sense to me.
I'm cool if you say tieri was the biggest loan shark, but you gave no reasoning or examples beyond, well he's in New York and he is in the biggest family, that's just bad logic.
I remember the first time I read that the biggest mafia boss in the 60s was CArlos MArcello, it made no sense to me, until I read a little about him.
I couldn't understand how MEdillin was bigger than CAli when CAli was based in NEw York, until I studied the drug trade...
It took a whole thread to convince you Detroit was kinda good at moving dope lol.
I remember I read George Remus was the biggest bootlegger, from Ohio of all places...
And you are not wrong about the size of New York, but I'll quote the BRasco movie, "5000 wise guys chasing the same buck", they do canibalize each other's markets, this is why they move around, if New York was big enough to never expand, they wouldn't go anywhere. THey don't have a right to everything happening in ny everywhere at all times.
And a lot of the times, these guys are going to be confined to their own ethnic group or neighborhoods
Take costellos slots, he got run outta New York to NO, and because NO had a more favorable, corrupt able climate to crime, the territory was more valuable at that time..
But this is a stupid fuckin argument anyway, like its ALL speculation, just why you always attack anything not New York confounds me...

of all the books about the outfit, gus Russo's is one of the best, he mentions that destefano had over 1.5 mill on the street, that was the biggest shark in Chicago

along with all the other juicers in Chicago, indeed the outfit, and their sharking was world wide, comparable to anyone.

keepup the good work toodoped, you're the best on this site.

Ooh another thing from that Brasco book, it really surprised me how much respect lefty, a New York guy gave millwaukee, ( a cow town) and how excited he was to do business there, also how out of place he was outside his own environment...

Here is a good example of New York media hyperbole;
Colombo guys, resource capital, a real white collar shy operation, they said it was the biggest ever uncovered?
What?https://books.google.com/books?id=KxMCAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=biggest+new+york+loan+sharks&source=bl&ots=YJICjikgLg&sig=1ZuzNTkQwYLSiiZMxiJx_oXkvcI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCYQ6AEwADgKahUKEwjCuLq8sYXIAhUMOpIKHR5gCSE#v=onepage&q=biggest%20new%20york%20loan%20sharks&f=false

Let me try again....https://books.google.com/books?id=KxMCAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=biggest+new+york+loan+sharks&source=bl&ots=YJICjikgLg&sig=1ZuzNTkQwYLSiiZMxiJx_oXkvcI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCYQ6AEwADgKahUKEwjCuLq8sYXIAhUMOpIKHR5gCSE#v=onepage&q=biggest%20new%20york%20loan%20sharks&f=false

Uuug

https://books.google.com/books?id=KxMCAA...rks&f=false

Finally, damn..

@Binnie thanks a lot man i really appreciate it. How ya doin?Long time no see...

Thanks for the link Cabrini. Besides Milwaukee, the mob had also large operations in Tuscon mostly by doing loan sharking and real estate deals. If Tuscon was such a "cow town" than why all the rivalry?

Exactly my point, I don't like the pissing matches and arguments, who comes on here for that?
I was just looking for some examples I hadn't heard of, or some funny stories, like joe butch with the money in his restaurant freezer lol

After the early years, there's very few examples of the NY families fighting over territory. So sorry but you'll have to do a lot better than quoting Donnie Brasco to make your point.

And me not being from NY (or Chicago in your case) helps my objectivity. I don't have dog in the fight, so to speak, and no reason to favor a certain family in some dick measuring contest.

Anyone who has studied the mob knows the scope of the NY metro area. We're talking the 5 NYC boroughs, Long Island, Westchester and the northern suburbs, Southwest Connecticut, and North/Central Jersey. Nothing else in the country even comes close. There's a reason why it has the 5 largest families in the country.

Also, look at the cases in NY and Chicago over the last 15 years. Very few loansharking cases in Chicago. Tons of them in NY and the surrounding areas. Seems to me it's pretty obvious whice region has been more lucrative for the mob, both past and present.

Just because Tieri had operated outside NY, it doesn't mean he was just going to give Caponigro the gambling and loansharking operation in Jersey. Which, by the way, he ended up getting anyway.

Gravano's comment to Paul was certainly about mob saturation in the construction industry but one of the reasons they had those Commission meetings was to coordinate the racket and make sure everyone got a piece so there was no fighting.

But back to the original question regarding the biggest loansharks in the country. Who else beside Tieri was even identified as the biggest? Nobody in Chicago or anywhere else outside NY. Yet we have you guys floating the names of guys in Chicago based on, well, nothing. At least one can point out the claim against Tieri made by the NYPD. And, considering the Genovese family has long been said to have the biggest gambling and loansharking operations in both NY and the country, it shouldn't be that hard to believe unless you just don't want to believe it.

Again, give me something to believe someone...anyone...in Chicago or elsewhere was the biggest in the country or bigger than Tieri. You can't. All I've seen is examples of there being big loansharks in Chicago and that was never in dispute to begin with.

Also, Marcello was never close to being the biggest mob boss. Not sure where you read that. Comparatively speaking, he was a very small operator to even the smallest NY family.

And while it's hard to say who was bigger between Cali and Medellin - I've seen the same general figures for both - one article said this -

The experts here used to think that the Medellin cartel was bigger in every way than its less flamboyant competitor. But they say it is now clear that the Cali cartel, which controls the markets in New York and Washington, D.C., is much more efficient and may actually ship more cocaine than Medellin.
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/09/19/world/the-cali-cartel-colombia-s-smoother-drug-gang.html

Another said this -

Today, Cali's worldwide cocaine share is equal to or bigger than Medellin's, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
link

By the way, learn to use the edit function rather than making 4 or 5 follow up posts.

No dog in this fight other than to say its almost impossible to really tell how'much bread a guy on. The street has. But why do many reporters and authors claim the outfit basically invented the juice loan....seems to me it's been around at least as long as any mob anywhere.

No idea who would claim that. Usury has been around for millenia.

If the number of court cases for juice operations was lower in Chicago than New York that doesn’t mean that the NY mafia used to have more juice operations than the Outfit. The Outfit was infiltrated in the government much more than the New York mob ever was. I want to add that the juice operation is an enterprise that doesn’t need a large group of associates to carry out its functions. This racket is operated in stealth manner and usually the operators are blood thirsty criminals with gruesome reputation so they don’t need any protection from their victims and the Chicago mob used to have a lot of guys like that.

Here’s a small part of history on the Outfit’s juice operations in other cities…

One of the earliest juice operations outside of Chicago, were in Miami, Florida and Wisconsin. Ralph Capone held a speak easy known as the “Brothers” in Hurley, Wisconsin and operated a large scale of juice operations from that joint.

During the early 1930’s in Reno, Nevada the Chicago mob held a large scale of juice operations at The Bank Club Casino. These operations were overseen by mob associate John Drew.

In the 1940’s large scale juice operations were held in Miami and Tampa, Florids at the race tracks that were owned by the Outfit, such as the Beach Kennel Club, Jacksonville Kennel Club and the Orange Park Kennel Club. Also in San Francisco, California at the Villa Chanticleer Casino, members from Chicago’s north side crew were in charge of the operations. During the late 1940’s Sam Yaras, brother of Dave Yaras, besides his coin machine racket, he also operated few juice operations. At the same period Lenny Patrick and Dave Yaras made connections and expanded their gambling and loan shark operations in Milwaukee, through John Ditrapani, who I think he was later murdered by the Outfit.

During the late 1950’s Giancana’s main juice operator Fifi Buccieri had spread his operations in Gary and Hammond, Indiana and Milwaukee, Wisonsin.

During the early 1960’s in Tucson, Arizona, the juice operations were controlled by Sam English, Joseph English and Leonard Russo. Sam alone had more than $500,000 on the streets. Also Joseph DiCaro, associate of, Sam Battaglia’s crew had few big juice operations going on. These guys mostly lent money to companies that were on the downfall. The crew pulled 10% of their earnings in Chicago and invested it in the juice racket. Also Joe “Buddy” Tocco, associate of the Chicago Heights crew, had many juice operations in Tucson.

By the mid 1960’s the Chicago crime bosses made a complete takeover of the bookmaking and loan shark operations by extracting a 50% tribute from the gross profits of all of the bookies and juice men in the area, thus making a multi-million dollar a year racket.

During the 1970’s Tony Spilotro oversaw large scale juice operations at the Circus Circus Casino. The Outfit's juice operations in Chicago were reduced during the mid 1970's because of some juice operation cases that occurred during that period. So they transferred their racket mainly to Vegas and other cities. According to the FBI Spilotro was the main guy that made loans to debtors both in Las Vegas and other cities around the country, such as Phoenix and Tucson, Arizona.

Top notch dicussion Toodoped and Ivy,forum is reciving a lot with you guys.

the billy jack and tony gicacolne were major as was the general hilf used to kick up 200k every Christmas right up to his death in 2013

Smaldone brothers in denever ran a major shy

I bet some of those smaller familys had some big shy esp there was little competition

I gonna go by common sense the bigger the city the bigger the loans.

No that dosent mean that.There were about 1500 made men in NY and 100 soliders in Chi.NY had 8 milion people in 1950,chi had 3 million 600 thousend people also in 1950.So you do the math.That dosent mean anything.
not saying that a guy from NY wasnt the biggest,just saying it dosent have to mean anything.

Ivey, look, you are arguing, I don't even know what, like I started off naming 3 big ny sharks, including the guy who was whole reason you are naming tieri as the top shark, Ruby stein.
Admit it, it irked you when he said buccierri and those chi guys were bigger, what I don't get is why it irks you so much.
Like if you woulda came back with no, actually Luchesses garment Center shy was the biggest thing going, or something, you say, "well NYPD said he was the biggest, and New York is the biggest yadda, yadda, then you call fan boy lol
Let me ask you this, when did Tieri become the biggest, after JIggs FOrlano?

And you keep bringing up that quote from the 70s, cause it supports your faulty hypothesis. In murder machine, after stein got killed, funzi didn't even have the ledgers, so it's clear he was just protecting him, like he didn't build that book, and it can't be a coincidence this guy stein happens to be associated with two guys named as the biggest sharks, like it was his book, goddamn...
Like, tell me Lepke or someone Jesus lol...

One last thing, gravano moved on Paul mostly cause of construction money, Paul even cannibalized his own people's rackets see? What's the , Piccolo?
Why the genovese need to kill him if ny is so big enough for everyone, why kill the guy?
And why was he killed, he had competing interest..
Gotti and Franceze sit down , loan action at flea markets, it eventually took up three families, they ended up fucking the operation up cause they were fighting over one little market, I'm sure there are too many examples to list so I'll stop there...

Well we finally agree lol, Merchant of Venice any one?

NYC and the surrounding area is big but has 8 families. Chicago has one family. Each of the boroughs by themselves is smaller than Chicago.

You're comparing loanshark cases in the past 15 years to determine loanshark activity 30-50 years ago?

Is there any hard evidence Tieri was the biggest loanshark ever? One statement by the NYPD before a trial means nothing without evidence backing it up. Did they provide any figures as to how they determined he had more money on the streets than anyone in the history of the mob?

Nah that can't be true. NYC is so big that there was no competition or fighting over rackets and money.

If you're going to start posting numbers, you have to go with the entire NY metro area, which includes all of areas I mentioned earlier in this thread. NYC has something like 8 million people. But the greater NY area has around 20 million. So YOU do the math.



It doesn't irk me. Tooped said he thought that certain Chicago guys at certain times were bigger loansharks than some NY guys listed. Now maybe some of the Outfit guys were bigger than some of the NY guys mentioned previously but, as much as he's tried, it's still not really clear why he would go to that conclusion. Nothing any of you have posted have been convincing in any way that the Outfit guys cited were the biggest. Now, you may say the same to me about Tieri but, we do have the statement by the NYPD and the fact he was a major earner in the family long known for having the biggest gambling and loansharking operations. Yet you guys keep trying to question the possibility of Tieri being the biggest when there's a lot less to support the claim about Chicago guys. That suggests to me you're biased for whatever reason.



I don't have to go to the quote by the NYPD in the 1970s. The fact that the Genovese family has always had the largest gambling and loansharking operations would be a better reason to assume they had the biggest loansharks than any argument you have yet to produce. But like I said, believe what you want. That you keep trying to argue this leads me to believe you WANT to believe something and aren't necessarily looking at this objectivity.

And by the way, why are you talking as if Tieri's loansharking interests were wholly contained in Stein's shy operation?



Why do you keep trying to bring up historical points to make your case when you get them wrong at least half the time?

Gravano was doing really well in the construction rackets under Paul. He joined the plot against Castellano for other reasons including because Paul was planning to break up the Gotti crew, him selling out Piccolo to the Genovese family, etc. The latter wasn't a case of him "cannibalizing" Piccolo (ie for his own benefit) but putting his business relationship with Chin above what benefited his own family and backing one of his captains.



Obviously there have been plenty of disagreements that have required sitdowns. But not fighting. Even with a territory as big as the greater NY area, and the money involved, there's still going to be plenty of greed and those who will try to take whatever they can. But the distinct lack of violence between families in NY over the years shows how successful they were at avoiding contention that ended in bloodshed.




As I said above, you have to look at the greater NY metro area, where the NY families have always operated. Even with multiple families there has evidentally been enough money and then some for them all. A family simply having a given territory all to itself doesn't mean that territory is as lucrative. The Outfit still has all of Chicago to itself today. If it benefited so much from being the lone family in the past, why do we see so few loansharking cases today? If there's any rackets that should have stood the test of time, it's bookmaking and the accompanying loansharking.

If you don't think there's enough "hard evidence" to think Tieri was the biggest loanshark, fine. But, as I keep saying, the fact that the NYPD thought so, and because he was known to be a major earner in the richest and most powerful family long known for having the biggest gambling and loansharking operations is a hell of a lot better reason to assume he was than any of the Chicago guys mentioned.

Fair enough on the tieri thing, I will say this about the gambling, one of my friends just bet a ton this weekend on some site online based in Europe somewhere,..
But I have no idea how a sophisticated shy op works today with the online betting,
And Ivey, you are too smart a guy for us to keep getting into these little spiffs, it's silly, we all got a morbid fascination here lol

Here are some notable juice operators during the early 1960’s in Chicago…

Fiore Buccieri, the kingpin of the loan shark racket, oversaw three crews. One crew was led by Angelo LaPietra, the second one by Frank Buccieri and the third one by Angelo Severino. Sometimes these three crews were overseen by James Torello. Most notable members in LaPietra’s crew were James LaPietra, Louis DeRiggi, Carlo Morrelli, Johnny Monteleone, Steve Annoreno and Alfred Milstein. In Severino’s crew most notable juice men were Tony Monaco, Angelo Petitti, Frank Teutonica, Joe Rossi and Tony Ozzanto. Frank’s crew was made of Joe Spadavecchio, Carmen Buccieri, Chris Seritella, Tony Eldorado, Tony Catalano, Mike Tenore and John Varelli. Buccieri had spread his operations also in Gary and Hammond, Indiana and Milwaukee, Wisonsin. This group handled more than 3 million dollars a year.

Sam Battaglia’s juice crew operated in Melrose Park, Stone Park and Lakehsore and also in Gary and Hammond, Indiana, Milwaukee, Wisconsin and Tucson, Arizona. Battaglia’s crews were mostly involved in lending money to companies that were on the downfall. For example in 1963 Battaglia lent $150,000 to the Lazarus Company, which resulted in fraudulent insurance claims and robberies. The Twin Food Company, which was known for the horse meat scandal, was a front for one of the biggest juice operations in Chicago headed by Felix Alderisio, Albert Frabotta and Leo Rugendorf. Also the Sterling-Harris Automobile Agency was making weekly payments to Rugendorf and Alderisio. Rugendorf forced the sale of 356 autos from the Sterling-Harris Ford agency to collect on one loan. The Bastone brother, especially Carmen Bastone also operated in the Melrose Park area. Their pime member was Tommy Tucker. If someone lent $500 from Tucker his juice payments were $50 a week. Rocco Pranno also operated a large scale of juice operations in Stone Park. Also Joseph DiCaro, associate of, Sam Battaglia’s crew had few big juice operations going onin Tcson, Arizona. This crew handled more than 3 million dollars a year.

Sam DeStefano’s crew operated on the West Side. Most prominent juice lenders were Peter Cappelletti, Tony Spilotro, Mario DeStefano, Art Pascucci and Sam Gallo. These guys handled 2 million dollars a year.

Lenny Patrick’s juice crew operated in the Lawndale area and Rogers Park. His most prominent juice operators were Jack Patrick, Morris Goldstein, Mike Patrick, Eugene Lufman, Norm Rottenberg and one known as Ruby “The Mule” last name unknown. These guys also handled juice operations in Gary and Hammond, Indiana and also in Dallas. Sam Yaras was their guy in Dallas. This crew handled about 2 million dollars a year.

Joseph "Big Joe" Arnold and Mike Glitta were involved in the juice loans on the North Side. Members of Arnold’s juice crew were Lawrence “Hornsby” Moretti, Lawrence “Larry the Hood” Buonaguidi, Joseph “Red” Amari, August Giovenco, Victor Musso, Michael "Bones" Albergo, Libero “Tony” Ingignoli and Thomas Immerso. James Allegretti and Caesar DiVarco also handled juice operations mostly on taverns and restaurants and thats why in the end the ended up owning almost every joint on the North Side.These guys handled 1.5 million dollar a year juice loan racket.

Joseph Gagliano, William Messino, Joseph Lombardo, John DiFronzo, Albert Sarno and Chris Cardi. These guys operated in Elmwood Park and their territory was bordered west by Austin Avenue, east by Ashland Avenue and south by Madison Av. This crew handled $500,000 a year

Willie Daddano had his own juice ledning headquarters on the corner of Cermak and Central Av. in Cicero. His crew was made of Tony DeRose, Buck Clemente, James Tortorella, John Allegretti, Frank Fratto, Ralph Detente, Mike Détente, John Reda and Alex Ross. This crew handled about $250,000 a year.

James Mirro was a Taylor Street guy but had his own headquarters on Grand Avenue where he operated large scale juice operations. His number one guy was James Capezio.

The Bravos brother, Nick and George, were known bookies all around the Chicago area but they also operated a successful juice supply of cash to their customers for many years. Some of their victims paid $300 a week interest. Bravos handled a high interest juice loan business and usually the debtors were kidnapped and severely beaten by him if they didn’t pay the required payments.

Jimmy Catuara from Chicago Heights also handled a large scale of juice operations. His crew was made of Billy Dauber, Gus Rubino and D'Andrea brothers, especially Nick D'Andrea. Their juice operations were mostly located in Gary, Indiana.


So in the end the Outfit made over 15 million of dollars a year and don’t forget that this was in the early 1960’s. The number of population doesnt prove anything, the kind of juice victims are the ones that count. And Evey League if you want to talk about numbers, lets talk about numbers than... Illinois had 11 million people in 1960's, Indiana had like 5 million, Wisconsin had like 4 million, Nevada had like almost half a mil and dont forget the operations in Miami, Dallas and Arizona and the fact that we are talking about one crime family here so somebody do the math around here please I’m done with this topic, cheers

MVP post, thanks Toodoped

Your're welcome Cabrini

Omg I was done till I saw that Marcelo comment, now I know you are really a fanboy lol!
Tell fuckin Bobby Kennedy Marcello was a nobody lol

Assume, they had the biggest loan sharks, see the problem here?
Assuming, I gave you a link that said Forlano was the biggest shark in ny, and he's from the smallest family, but you don't want to see it.
You don't want to see the stein connection, like I actually gave YOU the evidence of funzi being a big shark by illustrating the stein connection, you just keep saying hes in NY and the genovese are the biggest, like that's an explanation. Lol
But the MArcello thing, man Ivey, what the fuck do you think little Appalachin was for???
Like you tell me, why a sit down with all these bosses to decide on who rules NO?
Didn't the guy control the gulf of MExico, lots of narcotics smuggling, or do you think no he's a slave to New York?
So RFK went to all that trouble for a small operator? Really? Please...

That was mz point on the spot,if you want numbers and your looking at the NY metro area look at chi metro area its the same thing.Those numbers I posted were just the cities by it self.And ivy my friend,if I see that comment of yours again "Genovese were the biggest familly and had the biggest shy and gambling operations" im gonna sign out for good.Tooodoped has given some great arguments,you just repeted your self time and time again.

Nice info Toodoped

You're talking about something different. There are the types of gambling websites where you need a credit or debit card to make deposits. And you gamble with the money deposited and winnings or losses are credited to or taken out of your account. There's no loans involved by these legit companies. They already have your money so they don't need to worry about you paying up if you lose.

The sites the mob uses are ones that both the player and his bookie can access. The player can register his bet, and how much, online or over the phone to an offshore website or phone number. The bookie can then look to see if the player won or lost and how much money is owed. There's no online deposits. The actual paying or collecting is all done in person. The sites are simply used so the bettors can easily place their bets and the bookie isn't dependant on the old fashioned wire room that is more easily tracked down and busted by the cops. Because the mob takes bets on credit, that's where loansharking comes in.



First, I think I've asked this before but have you ever been diagnosed with ADD?

Second, I'm not ignoring the Tieri/Stein connection. I just don't know why you seem to think Tieri's inteterests were wholly containef in Stein's operation. At least that's what you seemed to be saying.

Third, while you choose to explain it away, the NYPD said Tieri was the biggest. Considering Tieri was known to be a big earner, with extensive gambling and loansharking operations in and outside NY, in the richest family known for having the biggest operations of that kind, it seems reasonable to me that Tieri was probably the biggest. But, hey, that's me.

Fourth, nobody said Marcello wasn't wealthy or had clout in his own right. But you claiming he was the top boss on the country is absurd. And, relatively speaking, he was a small operator compared to any of the NY families. He always intentionally kept his crime family membership small (built around his blood family).

Absolutely last post, Costello got ran out NEwYOrk BY the MAyor, went to the boss of New Orleans who could pay off the GOvernor, small time operator, ok Ivey, good day lol...

@ivyleague

it's impossible for ny mobsters not to compete with each other

ny mobsters compete with members of their own family for rackets, territory, etc.

you saying that ny has more action than 8 or 9 cities combined is ludicrous

Why is it so hard to find a loan in Cleveland

You keep posting these stupid loan questions and you'll be all ALONE. Stop it!!

It's wild, I know, but there are things called "Credit Cards" where you get "credit". Crazy concept, I know.

1. NYPD thought he was the biggest at the time, not of all time.

2. Greater NYC area had 7 families operating.

I was only trying to make two points with Ivey;
One, I tried to explain the relationship between Ruby STein and the biggest loan sharks in ny, it seemed basically whomever he was with at the time, put them right up there with the biggest sharks, he had a book worth millions apparently, and worked with more than one family...
Also, I wasn't even saying the biggest shark wasn't from ny, but seemed weird that if it was a guy from the genovese, a few guys woulda had more cash, like Fat Tony..
No one from CHicago was going to compete with NY in the 80s, but Tod mentioned BUccieri, from like the 40s n 50s, but he kept saying no, cause Chicago or anywhere else is not NY! A frustrating debate lol...