Staring down a life bid and saying "kick sand".

Question:

What percentage of current made guys in Philly, Chicago, Boston, New York and New Jersey are willing to take a life bid for cosa nostra?

If not life, what do you think the typical guy in cosa nostra (in the us) is the max hes willing to do. What is the line when the average guy starts cooperating.

Specific examples would be good.
My example would be Philly Boss Joe Ligambi; who got sentenced to life and never made a peep.

It's very hard to judge imo, because i don't think the FBI say who they've offered a deal to and who rejected it. I mean did the FBI offer Tommy Pitera or Paul Vario or John Gotti a deal? I don't think we'll ever know.

ITs an opinion bro. Not saying anyone knows.

In Chicago, Joey Lombardo and Jimmy Marcello have yet to talk. Joey Aiuppa and Jack Cerone didn't either. Both Aiuppa and Cerone were released right before their deaths, though. It's hard to judge who will flip and who won't though. It's the ultimate moment of truth, I guess...

Well in regards to anthony nicodemo in philly i have a mixed opinion were related but not closely so i know nothing of his mob business and what not but my mother says growing up he was always a wannabe and a pussy so she thinks hell flip on everyone

but as we have seen here all them young scarfo guys with the exception of geno milano and wayne grande those guys took there sentences with no problems, real stand up guys

Nicodemo is pretty old school if you look at it. Hes gotten his hands dirty a few times wacked out at least 2 guys.

has more to do with age i think, older guys less likely to flip, should be noted that not that many made guys flip relative to how many made guys are actually on the street, you just hear about cooperators all the time in the media and so forth and most CWs nowadays aren't made to my knowledge.

I'm interested in how the FBI actually decides who to offer deals to, i'm guessing there willing to listen to anybody, but the feds probably realize a lot of these guys are stupid and ignorant and probably do not make good witnesses anyways. I wonder how they size up potential CWs

cant think of any current guys just getting into a life bid except for vernace, he was probably was offered a deal, he could of done a lot of damage.

yeah thats why i think hell stand up and take it, im just stating what my mother said how he was growing up. and like i said before i dont know what he does as far as business and what not were not that close and i wouldnt ask him about it if we were

i think the median would fall around 15ish. A lot of guys have flipped for less, and stood up for more. Depends on age, family, financial security, mental toughness, and/or vanity. Some guys just want to go down as stand up rather than a rat

Ive never done any hard time but I know people in my family and friends who have.
My cousin said its really just about a mental toughness and mentality you have to have. You have to just not give a fuck. You have to achieve a mentality where you just assume your never getting out. Then they cant bother you and then nothing would suprise you.
Very difficut no doubt..

my dad said the worst part was the constant stress of having your guard up for years on end. Thinking about life on the outside will drive u nuts, just focus on one day at a time. Start to read some books, call your family, etc... The only thing that will keep you going.

What do they have to offer at this point..?

Not much I guess apart from a being treasure troves of information for the last 50 years....

It really depends on the personal code of the man. Although it wasn't life,"Lefty Guns" Ruggiero of Donnie Brasco fame refused several opportunities to lessen his 20 year sentence by flipping.Not only that,but even after finding out Pistone was an undercover FBI agent,he still vowed to "get that mother****er Donnie if it's the last thing I do".

He was so embarrassed by the loss of face he suffered by bringing Pistone in,that he was not about to lose his honor by also flipping.

After being released early for medical reasons,Lefty was approached by the Donnie Brasco producers. They offered him a million dollars to cut a brief promo for the film. Despite being terminally ill and broke,Lefty threatened to spit in their faces,and to do worse than that if they ever approached him again.
I think no matter what his sentence would have been, Lefty wouldn't have talked.

Not only was he willing to do his time over the donnie brasco thing, he was ready to die over it. Didnt the fbi arrest him when he was on his way to a meeting where he knew that he was probly gonna get whacked at.

It a code everyone tough on the street be life is life.That why the fed cut deal with them. American guys r soft,some stand up do the time but 9 time out of 10 the guy will flip to see light at the end of the tunnel look at Joe Massino life sentence and flip to save his own butt.

It seems like most people rat but when you look at all the people who had the chance to flip, it outnumbers the people who actually do flip.

The feds tried very hard to get Pitera to flip, even trying to make him feel like his life was in danger (or actually push it to that point).

Im sure the feds pressed long john but he kept his mouth shut for 17 years after he ate the 10 year sentence and the life sentence and came out still ready to hustle he was real cosa nostra and drove to doctor with all them bullet wounds at his age one tough son of a bitch

That's a point I've tried to make over and over. The rats get the attention so people get the incorrect idea that everybody is flipping when that's not the case. As one law enforcement official said, the difference in numbers between those who flip today and those who don't is not even close.

I always wondered what the feds would of done if say Anthony Senter flipped, young guy who got life at 34. If they would of cut him any deal after he talked about how many people he chopped up.Maybe 19 murders with Gravano, but 50+ kills and dismemberments the feds would of caught heat for giving someone like him any deal.

I can tell you right here, right now, I'm not doing life for some organization. My mother, yes. The mob today..no chance. Doing a couple months will wear you out. What Skinny said up above is on point- the stress of ALWAYS keeping your guard up wears you down. Everything is race based. If I'm looking at life for killing some dude I don't know because I was ordered to kill him by some 'boss' I don't know. Nope. I would stand on the highest chair and sing louder than Paveratti.

Respect

Then why did you pledge loyalty to that organization if you never intended to uphold it?

This....If a guy gets a button, wants it, he knows the consequences, the risks--and the possible reward. A real man takes enters into that life taking those risks and accepting them.

Say whatever you want about LCN, wiseguys, the nature of it all, good or evil, but there is some honor in a guy willing to do life in jail, rather than sell out his friends.

Maybe they should change the rules when you're inducted, put in an option clause if you face a sentence more than 15 years it's ok to cooperate.

"May I burn in hell like this saint if I betray my brothers....unless it's to avoid a long prison sentence than it's ok."

When today's mafiosi (and I use that term loosely) in the US, can't do a bid longer than Martha Stewart, it's time to rethink their career choice. Anything involving a cardboard hat, and saying, "would you like fries with that?", I'm thinking.

That's the way it seems to be going.

That's it exactly. It's the mindset that I'm in here today and I'm gonna be in here tomorrow. And you keep telling yourself that until whenever. It really is a one day at a time mentality. Because the days turn into weeks and so on. You can't start thinking of your entire stretch from the day you go in or you'll never make it. It's about being strong willed, not about being a tough guy in general. And outside of writing your family and keeping in touch with them by phone, you have to put the outside world completely out of your head in order to survive a long stretch. Dream about pussy and margaritas on the beach all you want, but don't dream about your regular life that you miss. That's the only way to get through it.

I disagree. This is what they SHOULD know going in, but most guys never think that far. Everyone knows they are getting made. Its not a surprise. Guys come back and have a party. In fact most have two partys. One with guys in the family, one with their buddys who mostly arent made at all. Its like becoming a CIA agent and going around showing all ur friends ur badge at the hs reunion. No one goes into that ceremony thinking some day down the road i could regret this... No one thinks that one day they could get sentenced to 16yrs for a crime that would be less than 2 if you werent a member. No one thinks that one day when your 85 years old some guy you sold weed to 30 years ago ratted you out. You start to think u can get off it bc the statute of limitations, but your a member of a continuous racketeering enterprise. None of these guys think like that. Its all me me me, now now now! Its america, its being young, and spoiled, as well as being human. Some people can take jail, some people crack. Thats life. You cant explain it all. At least new jersey turnpike guy was honest. Would you stand up? Would you ever put yourself in that position to have to make that choice? I am cynical when it comes to life. I find it to be the easiest approach. I understand human nature. That inside we are all self serving beasts, our interests to serve anyone/thing outside of our selves only comes from the outward pressures of others. When it comes to the life, i may know the names, the rackets, but if you dont have a grasp on the complexity of human nature when it comes to that life you will never understand it.

Skinney, NOT plus 1, but PLUS. 2! Very good insight, especially over the last couple of decades in the me, me, me America.

Lombardo could probably offer up John DiFronzo, Pete DiFronzo, Marco D'Amico and Joe The Builder. Probably more than a few unsolved murders as well.

Marcello? Not sure. Would he know who killed Anthony Zizzo and Ronnie Jarrett?

Probably not Zizzo he was killed in '06 by that time Marcello had been in jail over a year awaiting trial.

Easy to talk about doing time if you've never done any. On to the next thread for me...

why would you list the five families last when they've ratted the most?

there ain't no telling how many wires are being worn in NY

that's a proven fact

The fuck? What list r talking about??

Thank you, SP. Those eleven words speak volumes.

Now don't get me wrong, if you're in or even around the life you're supposed to stand-up. You do the crime, you do the time. But these kids who haven't even lived yet, who are still living with their parents, who've never been within a hundred miles of a real wiseguy, or spent a single night inside, yet feel obligated to ''hate'' rats, aren't very credible on this subject. And I'm NOT singling anyone out on this board, I'm talking about these types of boards in general.

If you've walked the walk that's one thing. If you've lost family to jail for long stretches (especially a father), that's also understandable. But if you're posting your hatred for rats without any firsthand knowledge of what it means to hear that iron door shut behind you, you really have to re-think your position until it happens to you.

And again, I'm NOT talking about anyone in particular on this board. I'm just replying to Silent Parnerz's very astute post .

I would also like to add PB, it's not exactly a GOOD thing if you get thrown in jail for anything, whether you're a mobster, gangbanger, crooked businessman or a cat burglar.

Amen to that. For years I've seen a lot of posters on these forums act like they have some axe to grind with rats when they have no skin in the game, so to speak. They'll knock the guy who flips for his crimes while rooting for the guy he's ratting on (who's guilty of the very same crimes). I'm not in the mob so what do I care if a guy rats? From where I sit, rats can provide a lot of good info, even if they usually have hypocritical and self-serving reasons for ratting.

And my point is, then don't get involved to begin with. So it's all good and take a pledge of oath, but face 5-10 years in jail and cry like a bitch? Then I say, re-think your career choice before getting involved. I'll say it's different in Italy, because there's not so much of a choice to join. Like I always say...you're born into your family and you can choose to renounce it or stay.

Speaking about guys on these boards, they don't like rats, and then they don't like guys like Provenzano and Riina who stick to the code and keep their honor to which they pledged. So fuck em all.

Amen Carmela. I was debating with this other guy about Gotti. He didn't like Gotti and thought he should have committed suicide by swallowing a poison pill rather than kill Castellano. Like that's what he would do. LOL.

Don't like the guy if he rats, don't like the guy if he accepts his fate and does his time in jail, don't like the guy because he killed first before he got killed. I mean what the fuck, what are we talking about here? Kids on a playground?

Some of these guys occcasionally make decent postings but they have no idea of reality in the Mafia. They are just talking big behind a fucking typewriter which means nothing.

We're in total agreement, Carm. That's pretty much what I said. If you choose to go that route, the you're supposed to stand up.


Exactly, Chicago. That's what I was trying to convey in my post (I'll re-post it underneath this).

It something i dont like to advertise( or ever intended to share on this board) but since people r sharing there personal opinions and experiences. Ive had to do a little time,5 months, which isnt a whole lot time but a little more than an overnight stay. And it was bc of someone who i called a good friend set me up cause he couldnt handle something he probly wouldve got probation for but what the fuck. So ive got a general problem with rats, but on each individual basis i can understand bc even 10 or 15 years is nothing scoff at let alone life, no1 knows what they would do in that situation, we like to think we would be honorable but its easier said then done. And pb and skinny r 100% right about having the right mindset, well i was "away" i got my GED while inside and really got into reading and it honestly made things a lot easier.

I honestly am very surprised more guys with life sentences don't flip.

I'm thinking in some cases it's because the feds don't give them the option. The bigger you are, the bigger chip you'd have to play. You may know everything in the world but if they can't turn it into convictions, you're probably screwed.

Other people certainly do accept their fate and don't try to flip. Maybe it's fear that their families would be harmed. As docile as the Outfit in Chicago is recently, hell, it's still the mob. If inmate A threatens to take down a bunch of big guys, it certainly wouldn't be beyond them to pull out all the stops... if they could.

Other times, maybe they have such a mountain of crimes under their belt that it's hopeless. Say you're in for two murders but you know if you flip it's going to come out that you actually committed 30, plus you have 20 million in offshore accounts. You're going to have to be able to put away a TON of people for the feds to grant you complete immunity on that.

Other times, some people really have probably bought into the whole 'omerta' thing.

Just thinking out loud because I just think in most instances, everything else being equal, it would be human nature to do almost anything to avoid spending the rest of your life in jail.

Same with me as Dellacroce I didn't sign up on this board to promote personal demons but since it seems that no one is to judge right now 2 years ago me and 4 other guys were arrested all on marijuana trafficking charges, a 6th person rolled a month earlier and pretty much gave us all up, i made bail the same day so I was only inside for four hours, anyways me and the guys were still looking at 5-15 years. I never thought about talking because I knew the case was crap, and I know that everyone involved got called at least once to the D.A.'S office for them to offer a deal, and suprisingly no one accepted the deal (one guy even had a kid on the way). Anyways the witness was arrested about 6 months later for possession of 100 oxy codone and ended up going to rehab, so with a witness like that the case fell apart and I plead to 3rd degree possession and the only jail time given was the kid that already had a record and got 9 months. I didn't cooperate because I had a lot worse happen to me in my life and was able to take that on the chin, so doing time didn't really scare me because I felt I had already experienced as bad as life gets, and you gotta remember people like Gotti, Salerno, Persico, etc. grew up with nothin. Life was kicking them in the ass from the begining and they managed to make it, so a life sentence wasn't something they saw as impossible to do, once again only an opinion not trying to sound like in the authority.

Haha mine wer the exact same charges, what messed me up was having a record too, that and they attached on a bunch of conspiracy charges. If your dumb enough to be doing what i was doing take this advice and STAY OFF your cell phone, certainly no text messages, i know its convenient but it will bite u in the ass!

The Outfit guys would say 'Prison becomes a state of Mind'.
You could be in prision at any time even in everyday life if you're trapped into something that makes you miserable and there is no practical way out.