After the Castellano hit

Was Gotti auto-magically boss since he orchestrated the murder? Why did that jackass get named boss? Did the other Gambino capos just LET the bastard take over? I just can't understand how Gotti got away with killing the boss. We know the Lucchese and Genovese families tried to do something about it, although they screwed up and killed Frank DeCicco. Why werent there any repercussions within the Gambino family? It's like the Gambinos just accepted it and even let that dumb shit Peter Gotti run the family into the ground after John died.

Gotti wasn't immediately made boss but at a meeting of all the capos not long after Big Paul was hit nobody dissented when he proposed himself as the new boss. Gotti had a lot of muscle behind him (he just took out a boss) and nobody else wanted to end up like Paul or Bilotti.

Of course they couldn't tell the future, but a lot of guys in the Gambinos had tired of Paul's "unfair" share of the profits that the family made, especially off of the loan sharking and gambling which he didn't have as large a hand in. When Gotti took over it was perceived to be "back to the streets" so to speak.

there was said to be a 3 man panel, at least in show of Gotti, DeCicco and Gallo. Decicco gave the seat to Gotti thinking gotti could never be an underboss himself, with a secret plot to kill Gotti within a year if he didn't perform effectively. Sammy The Bull was in on the one year boss idea as well, however Decicco go bombed within that 1st year and after that it was only about 5 years and 4 trials before Gravano flipped and sunk the world

The capos may not had wanted all out war with gotti.Paul lost respect with the street crews but he was not a street guy,and everyone know that Lil Nicky was running the famly by time Peter become boss i think Peter was front boss of the feds

Who's lil Nickey?

gotti let his capos get away with alot of things and he wasnt a greedy boss so the capos liked having him as boss

Nicholas Corozzo

Here is an interesting link to a Gotti bio which includes an account of the maneuvering both before and after the hit on Paul.
The book "Gotti,Rise and Fall" is cited for some of the source material.
http://www.collegetermpapers.com/TermPapers/Biographies/John_Gotti.html

To be fair at that point all the other muscle crews were gone. We all know gotti feared the demeo crew and since sammy and decicco were with gotti on the plot there was no other crews who had the muscle to start a war

Big Paul was there for the taken by the time he was killed, Gotti would never had got away with the hit say even 5 or 6 years before hand, some main people were in on the hit at the time. muscle Big Paul side did not have Gambino capos as they did not like him gotti feared nobody he had balls but no brain, demeo crew Lucchese and Genovese families would have got all the ploters fews years before hand Aniello Dellacroce would never let a boss get hit old ways old school with rules.

Was the resentment towards Big Paul justified? Granted it is a different era, but look at John DiFronzo in Chicago. From what I read he sits back in his mansion and collects from his construction business. He isn't out there getting his hands dirty with his street guys. Why was Castellano resented for doing that? Was Ducks Corallo or Snake Persico busting their ass in the streets? Probably not. I bet you they were sitting back collecting the money just like Big Paul.

Was the resentment towards Big Paul justified?

I would say some part of why they hit him was because people was thinking he would rat in court his mansion was because he did run
a meat place and could pay for it on the books the hit was justified in the eyes on the Gambino members and they did roll over right away. Probably Big Paul was going to kill gotti&Co but
who's to say he was ?

DiFronzo wasn't always sitting back in his mansion collecting on construction, he started off as a cat burglar and sliced his nose almost completely off in his youth busting out of a basement window. That's why they call him No Nose DiFronzo. He didn't ascend to the big seat he inherited it through deaths and lawsuits. He's easily not boss if Family Secrets doesn't happen Marcello and/or Lombardo are boss(es) today. Had Ferriola lived to 84 like DiFronzo and not died at 61 we wouldn't even be having this talk right now. And again after reading Family Secrets it's clear that Frank Calabrese was also planning on possibly making on run at taking over once he got out had his son&brother no subsequently flipped on him

Besides being seen as greedy, Castellano also didn't win any points when he gave his OK for the Genovese family to kill his captain in Connecticut.

These, in themselves, were't enough for most of the guys in the family to do anything beyond gripe. But obviously many of them weren't all that sorry to see him go and fall in line behind the new leadership. Everyone knew what had happened but only Failla and Marino tried to do anything about it.

Let's not also forget that by the mid 80's Big Paul was likely the only guy in the family who wasn't involved or at least funding or overseeing associates who were involved in full scale drug wholesaling. So again in the Gotti takeover you gotta realize everyone knew Gotti's brother and top guy Ruggiero were dealing heroine hand over first with John's silent blessing/partnership so at the end of the day who really gave two shits that Big Paul was gone, they all stood to earn more a lot heavier with Gotti in place. But there's two sides to that coin as well, that's exactly the mentality they all had and as a result many died/went away over drugs and drugs ultimately led to much of the bad luck in the Gambino Family over the next 30 years as well

Another hypocrisy that Castellano (and other supposedly "Deal and Die" bosses) engaged in. One one hand, Castellano didn't want Gotti's crew dealing. On the other hand, he knowingly took drug money from guys like Patsy Conte and John Gambino.

It's all about who GETS to earn, not how they do it. Paul didn't want Gotti's crew dealing because he knew Gotti could takeover and if the crew kept earning he surely would(good call on Castellano's part) plus with Gene Gotti getting caught dealing Paul had an easy excuse to kill John his likely sucessor. Another thought is what would have possibly happened if the FBI hadn't wire tapped Ruggiero's crib and forced Gotti's hand in whacking Big Paul. Castellano was about to go down for LIFE in the commission trial, he didn't stick around long enough for sentencing, however, had he I am very curious what could have played out (i.e. Attempted commission power shift by other Families) as well as what the Gambino Family in full health with Big Paul getting life would have done. Would Castellano have been allowed to run the show form the jail, it's never been an issue for guys in the past but would the 1986 Gambino Family actually keep CASTELLANO (not your average boss doing life) in place doing life with Guys like Gotti, DeCicco, Armone, Gravano, DeBernardo on the street earning what they were, honestly Paul likely would have been shelved.

Difronzo would still be boss e in if family secrets didn't happen. Marcello was a front and Lombardo was semi retired.

I think Conte was out of drug business for long time by time he became involved with Castellano.

I don't agree with the "unfair" stuff, what boss isn't selfish and fair...?

It was the approved hit on their Capo by the Genovese family that broke Paul's back and the fact that Paul wanted those tapes that showed the Bergin Crew was dealing smack.

Plus, he didn't go to Neil's funeral, a very disrespectful move to a guy that gave his entire life to the family.

Paul had threatened to wipe out that crew and disband them throughout the family. Gotti simply made his move before Paul made his.

Not according to Gravano. Gravano said that, after Gotti took over, he sent Gravano to tell Conte the new administration wanted the same arrangement (i.e. money) from Conte's drug business that he had with Castellano.

Gravano might have been telling truth, or he could have been making it up. Conte and Castellano had very big food distribution going through Key Foods owned by Conte, and Metropolitan Beef Chain, owned by Castellano. I think Conte financed his business through old drug money, but after he was up and running he seems to have stayed clear of drugs or anything else. He had to be tied to Castellano though early Mafia relationship he could not get out of. Or he liked staying involved for matters like union help.

I don't think Gotti and his men feared the Demeo crew. Anyone were they ever captured on tape recordings saying they did? I don't think Gotti would even know the extent of how many Roy and his crew had killed till after it came out in trials.

Gravano had no reason to lie about that. Conte passed along drug money to Castellano, as well as to Gotti later.

Gravano had reasons to lie if he was coaxed into it, or if he wanted to lash out at other Gambino Family members. He said he flipped because of Gotti, yet he told on everyone. He also said he was going straight, yet got right into things as soon as he hit Arizona. With Castellano's home wired to catch all conversations, did any come up where him and Conte discussed their dealings?

I think you're grasping at straws. He flipped because of Gotti but his deal with the government required him to tell everything he knew and not lie about it. I don't recall Castellano being picked up talking about Conte's drug business but that doesn't prove anything. He wasn't picked up talking about the Gambino brother's drug ring either. I just don't see a reason for Gravano to make up that story of talking to Conte for nothing.

I think he could have made it up, not hat he definitely did. I think if Conte had really done it, they would have had a case on him.

Someone just told me on another site that Gravano had deal to not testify agaisnt his own guys. That is strange, he would have more on them than anyone else, yet they got a pass.

Conte was indicted for drug trafficking and Gravano testified against him.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1987/Market...864a475365a13f1



It was one of the concessions they were willing to give Gravano. Give him a pass with one crew and get everything he knew about the rest of the family.

Conte was not convicted on drug charge, but pled guilty to a murder.

What's your point? Gotti wasn't convicted on ordering the shooting of union official John O'Connor either. Didn't mean he wasn't guilty of it.

conte was in the biz until he got pinched..no doubt

Two different cases, I think my point was obvious. It is that maybe Conte was not as involved, or no longer involved, with drugs, and had moved on to other Mafia activities. Him pleading guilty to a murder, but not the drug charge, leads me to believe that is what it was. You seem to disagree, I'm sure some others might, that's fine. Thing to realize is that FBI has put out wrong information in past, and they do control what informers say to a certain extent.

The problem with that thinking is that it's basically gives a free pass for anyone to disagree with the feds anytime they feel like it. Now, if they have good reason to disagree, with demonstrable evidence, then fine. But you seem to have just started from the position that Conte hadn't been involved in drugs for a long time but without any reason for believing so.

Anyway, when Gravano approached Conte, he told him the Gotti administration wanted the same arrangement he had with Castellano. Conte's response was that he had been out of the business for a while, after which Gravano instructed him to start back up again. So, yes, Conte did stop dealing for a while but it wasn't before he gave a lot of drug money to Castellano. In fact, that's why Gotti had Gravano approach him in the first place, i.e. the money he heard Conte had passed up to the old boss.

Hold on: Evidence that he was selling heroin should come first, not people having to prove that something did not occur. I have seen all the stories on him, they repeat same thing. I just don't see how they can monitor a person for so long, have so many informants wearing wires talking to him, and not have anything to show.

Do you think Gotti already knew he would have enough captains backing him ?
If he just killed Castellano without seeing if he had backing first that was a risky gamble to take.

Even before Gravano flipped, the indictment against Conte came about in the late 1980's because a confidential informer provided evidence that Conte was trafficking in heroin. It was alleged that "Conte does not have physical contact over the heroin but directs the importation and distribution business through other members of Sicilian organized crime; and that he received $5,000 for every kilo of Sicilian heroin imported and sold in the New York metropolitan area." Two others, Tommaso Buscetta and Sammy Gravano, confirmed this. Italian authorities were also able to trace $1.9 million of Conte's drug money to Switzerland.

I think Gravano is not a reliable source. He would have said anything to save own neck. If a confidential informer was cooperating, why did he not record things, or let them know where next meeting was so they could set something up? It's all rumor and innuendo.

Give me a break. We may as well say the same thing about OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony.

They had trials, and were convicted. There was evidence. You see to be taking this personal, don't. I just like to go by definite facts, it's just the way I am.

What are you talking about? Both OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony were acquitted, despite the overwhelming evidence against them. And there's plenty of evidence that Conte was involved in drugs. What this is about is you starting from a bad assumption that he was out of the drug business before Castellano was boss and being too stubborn to acknowledge the evidence that shows you're wrong. Period.

OJ Simpson case was before my time, and I did not follow Casey Anthony, so I thought she was in prison. My error.

I am not being stubborn, I was trying to have civil conversation on this topic. You want me to acknowledge evidence that is not there? They had no evidence, just rumors. No phone taps, no recording from confidential informer you mentioned, just gossip. In America, we don't convict people on rumors.

Many are convicted on multiple witness testimony (which is different then rumor). You're simply trying to narrow the goal posts where only certain types of evidence will be good enough.

Now you lost me. Narrowing goalposts? I'm going by facts, and by law. That is not narrowing goalposts. Sorry, I just don't see it that way.

Why would the stupid Gambino Capos vote for Gotti to be Boss after he broke every Mafia Commandment by killing his Boss? Why would the Capos even need a Boss? For what reason?? What would Gotti do for them?? In Chicago, A man was the Top Boss Of The Outfit FOR A REASON. Mainly it was because of his strong political ties which enabled business to Flourish. Also, The Top Boss had acquired a lot of money and he INVESTED some of it into franchises. So, If you were a made guy in the Outfit, You WANTED to be a partner with a man of this caliber.
It seems in the highly decentralized Gambino Family, Gotti didn't know anything about what other people were doing. He really had nothing to offer any of the other captains. Why would the Gambino Family even need a Boss?? Gotti killed Castellano before Castellano killed him. It was kill or be killed. I understand that reason. However, Seriously, why would all the Captains give a percentage of the money they were receiving to Gotti? What would they gain in return from Gotti? I never did understand the logic in any of it.

I am not going back through this thread but I will say that mere multiple witness testimony should only convict someone when the witnesses are credible. I don't care whether we are talking about mobsters or Michael Milken. If there is no hard evidence and there are 10 witnesses - all of whom are members of LCN or involved in a junk bond scam - it is highly dubious to award their statements sufficient creidiblity to find someone guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

I'm sorry Ivy, but Sammy Gravano was by his very nature a highly questionable witness. Was Gotti guilty of all the things Gravano said? Sure. But it is insane to think that he would have been found guilty solely based on that testimony. There were tapes in that trial. That is what got him.

That's going to be the case with all mob guys who flip. They're criminals, liars (at times), and murderers. But that's why they have the info on their fellow criminals to begin with. As for Gravano specifically, he proved to be one of the most effective and convincing witnesses the government ever had.