Chicago Outfit

How much of the midwest families does chicago still,control.Can someone point me and the right way to find out.

I don't think they really "control" that much anymore. Perhaps what is left in Cleveland. They certainly retain a relationship with Detroit. DiFronzo and Jack Tocco were close for years and would always attend the Kentucky Derby together. I would assume they are too old at this point. Detroit used to seek the Outfit's approval for their bosses going up through the mid 1990s according to Willie Messino. I'm not sure that's still the case or not.

Now insert the Utah Expert to give the ultimate final word and remember, no disagreeing with him children.

Where did Messino say this? Is this in one of Joe Fosco's articles? I wonder how far back this arrangement went. Seems like it went as far back as the 1920s.

Yes that's exactly where that source is from. Messino was taken frequently to meet with mobsters from other cities until he had an episode when he went off the deepend on a guy and threatened to kill him, embarrassing Cerone and DiFronzo.

The meeting between Chicago and Detroit that Fosco cited took place in Rosemont. And I would agree with you that Chicago and Detroit have been in contact going back that far.

Didn't know Tocco and DiFronzo were buddies. I've heard rumors Jack's retired now and that DiFronzo might be ready to throw in the towel. Who wants to spend the rest of their elderly years in jail? No one including them.

Anyone know anything about the Detroit Capo "Chicago Tony" La Piana? How he came about that nickname?

What midwest families outside of Detroit are left to control? Cleveland, Kansas City, and Milwaukee are defunct.

Exactly. At this point, it's Chicago and, to a much lesser degree, Detroit. And even if there were others, the Outfit's influence doesn't really extend that far anymore.

I know they have a crews in Rockford and Milwaukee,but what about KC,ST AND Cle.

I was thinking that when Cleveland was active they answered to the Genovese in NY and not Chicago. Is that correct?

Got to agree with others here, aside from MAYBE one guy in Las Vegas who oversees any Outfit interests, I don't think there is anything for Chicago to control anywhere out west. I would think KC has autonomy. St. Louis is gone or almost gone. L.A. is history. Cleveland was supposedly giving monies to Rudy Fratto in the last decade or so.

The only Family that they control in the West is Lew Farrell's old family in Des Moines, Iowa. I've heard the Fratto Family in Iowa has 65 made guys; 230 associates; and they completely OWN the local and state governments.

Oh, and of course the families in Denver, Colorado and Pueblo, Colorado. Checkers Smaldone left all of his sizeable operations to the Outfit in his will. Apparently, he was a reel generous guy. (Obviously i'm really bored at work today.)

HAVE A NICE WEEKEND YOUS GUYS! Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

Yes, Cleveland answered to the Genovese back in the day. The Outfit's influence was over families west of Chicago.



Except for the first paragraph, I have to assume the rest of this post is tongue-in-cheek.

Do they still even make new guys?

Chicago probably absorbed whatever was left in Milwaukee

Chicago stopped fucking with kansascity because of the casino indictments

Cleveland and st.louis I couldn't even tell you

Whatever "mob" is left in Detroit is so small and weak it is an embarrassment to the mob to call it the mob.

There are probably a handful of lowlifes running minor rackets to line their own pockets but to insinuate that it has anything to do with the criminal organization of the past is to insult the latter.

What is a "mob" when it has no political power, has been going downhill for decades and virtually no structure?

I think in a lot of cases what people call the mob these days is really just the extended families of onetime mobsters running businesses and potentially cheating on their tax returns.

It's like calling a street that has a French restaurant and a party store that sells Champagne "Little Paris."

I completely agree. Nice post. Glad to see you back jonny!

Is your avatar from Once Upon a Time In America Hairy?

Does ANY LCN family have political power anymore?

No LCN family has the political power they used to have. The 5 families and Chicago are the only ones who do today.

Great post, you need to post here more often.

Yes it is Cam. I think it´s a nice image that catches some of that movie´s fine cinematography.

I agree it's an amazing film but i personally prefer Leone's Once Upon a Time In The West which is one of my favourite movies.

You should read Scott Burnstein's book on the Detroit Outfit and read his posts. The Detroit Outfit does still exist although much smaller and not as powerful as it was under Zerilli. To paraphrase Mark Twain, "The rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated."

Good to hear from you guys too. Thanks for the kudos.

Regarding the above: Wrong. Here is an old post from Ivy League from 2011, who I think has read everything Burnstein has ever written.

You can stop reading after the intro if you want: The last bust was in 2006. Then you have to go back almost 10 years for the one prior to that.

Period.

Everything else is just fantasy.

"That article was written by Scott Burnstein, who posts over on the Real Deal. I suppose it depends on how you define both "active" and "family."

Activity? The last significant bust involving the Detroit mob was back in 2006. Mainly a gambling and loansharking case. Then you have to go back 10 years to 1996 when Tocco and a bunch of other guys were rounded up.

Family? Scott believes there is 40-50 members there. I have to disagree for any number of reasons. First, the families in New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia and Chicago each have about 50 members but far more activity than Detroit. And I don't buy the argument that Detroit has found a way to avoid law enforcement detection while every other family hasn't. Second, in 1996 the max estimate what 30 members there. It's highly unlikely that a family like Detroit could increase that much in size over the past 15 years. Scott cites rumors about a couple of making ceremonies in recent years but it's not much to go on.

When judging which families are still viable, I choose to use the RICO standard - an ongoing pattern of crimes conducted in behalf of an organization. In my view, Detroit doesn't meet that standard anymore."

Unless you are God or a member of the Detroit Outfit with inside info I don't think you should be so arrogant as to call what I wrote "wrong." You might disagree, and that's your right, but you need more than a quote from Ivy League/Wiseguy to prove Scott wrong. Scott has met and been over to the houses of many Detroit people, and some of them even own copies of his previous book on Detroit. Part of what gets him in is that his grandfather founded the Purple Gang. Anyway, I trust that Scott, who, by the way is also close to local FBI agents and local mob experts, knows more about the Detroit Outfit than most of us here.

As for a lack of arrests, one thing to consider is a lack of financial resources and reconsideration of priorities. Whatever the case, I admit that Detroit isn't my area of expertise and I know my limitations. I suggest that others recognize their own limitations before pronouncing official judgments.

Agreed. I mean at the end of the day, we are all just guessing. I dont think its wrong to assume that Burnstein is wrong given the research that he does. AT the end of the day, him and Ivy just have opinions. It does seem that Scott does a fair amount of research.

I don't know all that much about Detroit; I do know about Chicago. We have had the numbers debate over Chicago ad infinitum, and I can tell you virtually conclusively that not even Chicago has close to 40-50 members. We all but definitely solved this in another thread and, not to sound like a horse's ass, but I have had it confirmed from people who really do know in other ways. Chicago is down to mid-low 20s at best--and Detroit was never a shadow of what Chicago is, obviously, not even a shadow of a shadow of a shadow.

So anyone who says Detroit has 40-50 made guys is living in an absolute fantasy world.

Move the decimal over to the left and you are probably about right on the nose.

I can agree with you on Chicago. One thing that makes Chicago different from Detroit is that Detroit is strong connected genealogically. Odds are any given Detroit member is related to another or several others, not true for Chicago. Chicago does have its relationships, but clearly not as extensive as Detroit. So given that about Detroit I make no claim to its numbers except that I do give credence to Scott's access.

You are free to take the word of someone who thinks Detroit has 40-50 made guys.

I am extremely familiar with the city of Detroit.

Basically it's the exact same thing as the Chicago argument. On one hand you have people who look at the relevant recent arrest records, etc., and try to make a logical inference; on the other you have a group that chooses to believe that there is a wildly successful criminal organization that has managed to evade being arrested even for minor infractions for years and years and years.

During the mob's hayday--any mob's hayday--they were being arrested left and right. Everyone knew who the mobsters were and what their rackets were, for the most part.

Now true believers advance the idea that certain factions of the mob, like Detroit, suddenly got so much smarter, more stealthy and successful, that they simply are able to 1) keep their names out of the papers, and, 2) avoid arrest for anything.

I go by the FBI, news sources and common sense.

I'm not familiar enough with all of Burnstein's work to really address it but I highly doubt there is a significant active mob in Detroit.

There is probably a small amount of bookmaking here and there. They don't control unions, they don't control politics, they don't kill people.

Way to spin the other sides argument. I can do that too. On the one hand you have people who choose to believe those who research these things consistently and enthusiastically, and who have access to these individuals. On the other hand you have a group of people who get their information solely through wikipedia articles and the occassional FBI release and act as if wikipedia is wildly accurate reporting system.

Where in the last three decades of mafia history have we had a group that has been able through "being low profile" avoid any arrests, convictions or fed tracking whatsoever for a number of year? Even the very best bosses (the Chin, Crea, etc) had lower level guys being arrested on a regular basis because of the large amount of criminal activity and fed pressure.

Chicago doesn't have many arrests because there is very little activity. Period. The other theories are big-foot like conspiracies.

Bunch of geriactrics thats for sure. I was just more commenting on the wikipedia dependence of some people.
Respect little nicky.

You are choosing to believe someone who thinks Detroit has 40-50 made members.

There are people who spend their lives studying Bigfoot too.

It's total nonsense.

Show me a police report, an FBI report, anything.

That is my point. No arrests = no activity, basically.

When I was growing up you would read about Jack Tocco occassionally, people like that. Hell I knew some of them myself.

Detroit is completely different than any other city in the country. There is no city, there are few old-school working class neighborhoods where traditional mob rackets would flourish. It is basically hosues and stripmalls.

The Italians live in Macomb County on the East Side and are at least third, fourth generation, and there is very little sense of community identify. There is no "Little Italy" in Detorit, nothing even close. Italian concentrations are around St. Clair Shores.

What's left of the blue collar neighborhoods, which are basically working poor neighborhoods now, are on exact other side of the city, what we call Down River.

I believe there is likely still a small amount of mob activity in Detroit but like I originally posted it is so small and so insignificant that it's like calling a pond a sea.

Give me an article on the last hit, the last large scale bust--anything.

I am not choosing to side with either. I am merely saying that anyone who things they have a monopoly on the truth is bat shit.

Since 2000 Detroit has had 3 mob hits

Reference.

Scott Burnstein meets in person (last week) with Detroit based FBI agents assigned to investigate OC in the city. He has developed a working relationship with these agents. They share current 'estimate' hierarchy charts with him. Scott also has contacts on the other side of the fence there. Is it so hard to fathom the following estimates are in the realm of possibility:
25 to 30 active members; 4 or 5 capos; an established and complete administration. About another 10 retired or shelved members.

Recent indictments? How about the D'Anna brothers are going to prison for beating a competitive restaurant owner with a baseball bat. The Family exists fella.

That said, I certainly that the amount of racketeering activity has decreased over the years- in every city. Along with the membership numbers.

Jonnynonose, in one post (above) you stated that you do not know much about Detroit, only Chicago. Then your next post you contradict your previous post by saying you DO know about Detroit. Which one is it? What information does the FBI provide directly to you regarding the current status of the Detroit Family? Just another one on the long list of guys breaking Scott Burnsteins' balls for no apparent reason.

Post a link to an article referencing the FBI's estimate of 25-30 members in Detroit and I will admit I am wrong. Period.

I know a lot about Detroit as an area.

I don't know (relatively speaking) nearly as much about the Detroit Partnership as I do the Chicago Outfit.

Here's a link to an FBI sourced article estimating 24 Detroit made members in 1984.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1988&dat=19930103&id=U4s1AAAAIBAJ&sjid=Eq0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=2954,175925

You are positing that the membership has either maintained or grown in 30 years, which would run opposite to every mob in every city in the country and more than that, even, contrary to common sense.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2011/06/24/organized-crime-in-detroit-forgotten-but-not-gone/

It says 3 between 1998 and 2002.

It also has the 40-50 number. Where is he getting that?

No offense, I'm sure Burnstein has done some good work, but people who devote their entire lives to this sh*t tend to have a need to believe it is "healthier than ever." You see it over and over.

Tony Zarelli the number two... right, last year he was running around saying he knows where Hoffa is buried to try to sell a book. Sounds like he is neither the number two or has any fear of the "Partnership" whatsoever.

Detroit Partnership circa 1965 headline crime: Controlled Teamsters

Detroit Partnership circa 2010 headline crime: Possibly mob affiliated mongloid brothers attack competing restaurant owner with bat.

Just for the record, Scott doesn't really say that; he has stated that he feels that the family will be essentially gone in 20 years due to there being almost no young people in its ranks.

Scott knows more about Detroit that any of you

Uh huh. Wasn't he the author of the Outfit organizational chart you all used to use to argue that Chicago had 150 made guys or whatever it was?

People are not reading my first post,But chicago outfit is not like know other family.Chicago have not had 150 made men and years.Chicago is broke down into 4 diff crews(family)With everyone answering to John DiFronzo aka (Boss of all bosses)

Like white said the outfit hasn't had a making ceremony that we know of since the 80s so there only being 30 going through the ceremony is not a surprise. But guy's who have the influence of a made guy is well above that. And even if they're not, the chart shows that they still have a lot if man power which disproves the "30 made men and 100 associates" theory.

What he's saying may not be popular but jonnynonos is right.

First, Chicago. That chart Scott and Atardi make up in 2010, while impressive looking, is very misleading. Atardi told me most of the info used to compile that chart came from the Chicago Crime Commission. That's strange, considering the CCC estimated the Outfit had approximately 70 members back in 1997. Now, 16 years later, it's over 90? More recently, Scott said he used the term "soldier" in a generic sense. Why? Is he not aware what the term "soldier" implies, i.e. a made member? And if "soldier" doesn't necessarily mean a made member on that chart, then why did he list other guys as "associates?" What's the difference? All we need to know is what 2 FBI officials said in 2007 - the Outfit had 28-30 made members and a little over 100 associates at that time.

Second, Detroit. At the time of the big GamTax bust back in 2006, the Detroit LCN was said to have 30 members at most. People can choose to believe Detroit has somehow bucked the trend of every other LCN family and grown over the last 17 years but I find it very unlikely. And those who put so much stock in Scott's charts seem to overlook the fact his charts have constantly changed from 2006 to the present, showing anywhere from 30 to almost 60 members. After much debate over on the RD forum, he finally admitted he wasn't sure whether all those he listed are made. Why not? If he's so hooked in with the FBI, shouldn't he be a little more sure? Furthermore, why don't we seen anywhere near the amount of mob cases in Detroit that we still see in Chicago, New England, or Philadelphia? Certain people have done their best to come up with explanations for the lack of indictments in recent years but none of them really hold water. Anyway, I'm willing to bet we'll see relatively little in the way of mob news or cases coming out of Detroit in the next 10-15 years. In other words, just like the last 10-15 years.