More Power

Who has more power at the end of the day, Underboss or Consigliere?

Underboss most of the time.

I would assume underboss unless for some reason the boss has a better, closer relationship with the consigliere

Consigliere is more of a ceremonial role, while underboss is a full fledged position within the hierarchy. So my answer (or opinion) is obvious.

I may be wrong, but for the past 20-25 years it seems to be based on the individual. I mean depending on who he was before gaining his position and what not for example Sal Vitale and Anthony Spero i think everyone would argee that Spero was more powerful and respected, but again i could be wrong but nowadays i think it's more based on the individual.

Consigliri solves beefs. Pretty influental decision maker. I dont buy into all that tom hagen shit.

Speaking of Sal Vitale, why would Massino treat him the way he did and then involve him in the "Geroge from Canada" hit. Vitale said in the early 90's Massino took his power but then had him be a instmentel part of the hit in 99, it just doesn't add up to me, i guess it was just a bad descision on his part.

Feds coulda put words in his mouth to get the desired effect on massino.

Isn't that all in name only now? Isn't the underboss the #2 and the Consigliere #3?

I mean, I can't see a boss today thinking "Who's a smart, old timer I can name as my consigliere that can help me decide things?"

I would think everyone being named would be for strategic purposes or to keep/maintain power.

I can't see a consigliere telling a boss he can't do something because it's against the rules.

So I would say underboss has more power.

The family bringing the beef uses their consiglieri to settle the dispute according to the rules of them. Im pretty sure i have that right.

Generally speaking, it will be the underboss. That's the #2 position.

As I've mentioned before, the consigliere role seems to have changed from the traditional ceremonial role. Contrary to the idea of an older, semi-retired guy who just weighs in on disputes and gives the boss his 2 cents from time to time, they're often much more directly involved in mob operations today; even running their own crews or factions.

dependent on the individuals. theres not 1 compulsary game plan for everyone. its just loosely followed.

But that's because they're also caporegimes in charge of a crew before they were named consigliere. Consigliere is just a secondary role as they stay in charge of their crew.

The consigliere position is a position of great trust. The UB position too, but I think consigs enjoy a special bond almost with the boss, funny as it may sound.

Why'd Gotti choose Piney as his consig?

Did Gotti do anything right?

That's interesting that you say consigliere's usually keep their crews.

I've read Barney/Dom Cef have also kept their crews despite their high ranking status. How does it work? Would they have an Acting Capo running it day to day and they are just a figurehead and collect a double cut from that crew, or are they considered to be active within and more intensely focused on that particular crew?

I think you hit it right on the money.



Actually, I think when Bellomo became acting boss, he had somebody take over as acting captain. Dominick "Big D" Cefalu is the new captain of Cefalu's crew.

Interesting. So the fact a consigliere generally stays as capo, while a boss/acting boss needs to put someone else in charge of their crew, suggests consigliere is now basically a part time role.

Even a boss or underboss is often going to maintain closer contact with their crew. Sometimes even still running it. Danny Leo, while he was acting boss, was said to still be overseeing a crew. That said, I do think there's some truth to the consigliere position being more formal in nature than boss or underboss. Sometimes it's not really a matter of them really advising the boss at all. It's just that they are an influential member or oversee a big faction in the family and so are given a position in the administration. And, to be clear, they're no longer a captain; though they may still be effectively functioning like one in many ways.

I have always wondered that. When I read the book Made Men about the decalvecante family it quoted one of the members as telling the informant on a wire that Vinnie Ocean could no longer have anyone directly under him when became part of the administration. I took that too mean that when he became a part of the admin, he was no longer running the crew.

That's a good example of them following procedure in the more traditional sense. Gotti, when he became boss, also said he could no longer interact with his old crew on a daily basis. It's just that this is not set in stone and isn't always the case.

it varies from family to family from era to era

the consigliere used to run things in chicago for decades

titles are just titles

whoever has the power.....has the power

I never understood how did the Consiglieri and Underboss ranks work. What do they both do and do they pay up?

Nowadays, while they have their respective titles and so are part of the administration, both positions seem to be much more "hands on" in running the rackets. They, like the boss, are entitled to a share of all the family's earnings.

I would think that the hierarchy would still be there ex. Underboss Joey six pack still answers to Don Frankie.

Yes, they still do answer to whoever is the boss.

Behind the scene, I'd say consigliere .

On the street, U.B.

DP

Without that the system would break down. I think the main reason why even today LCN exists is despite all the rats and informants, there's a structure and it's still followed which allows it to work. Kind of pointing out the obvious, but if people are so shocked as to why they're still around that would be a good reason.

That's exactly why. Even a boss, like Massino, can flip but the organization goes on.

Structure Keeps Mafia Atop Crime Heap
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704115404576096392318489246.html

In Boston Gerry Angiulo had more power hands down but consigliere Larry Zannino's word weighed in just as heavy most of the time.

I think this is the basis for many arguments about Chicago. As CookCounty pointed out the consigliere was the top shot-caller even though there were day-to-day bosses at different times. I'm talking mainly about the 50's,- early 80's. things probably changed sometime during the 80's; I'm not sure.

The other point that I believe is relevant is that there is a big, big difference between power and authority; not only in O.C. but in any business or organization. One person may have the title (authority) but someone else may have the power. It is very common and occurs in just about every organizational structure.