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Italians weren't considered "white" in US?

Posted By: BaltimoreSteel69

Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/27/13 08:39 PM

I want to bang on this for a minute. When the first wave of Italian immigrants came to the US, they weren't considered "so-called" white correct?? How hard was it to assimilate and integrate into the larger mainstream society?

Senator Geary: ".. I don't like your kind of people. I don't like to see you come out to this clean country in oily hair and dressed up in those silk suits, and try to pass yourselves off as decent Americans. I'll do business with you but the fact is that I despise your masquerade, the dishonest way you pose yourself. Yourself and your whole f--king family."
Posted By: BaltimoreSteel69

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/27/13 09:34 PM


Come on now?!! Ya'll don't have anything to say on this?
Posted By: ManGauge

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/27/13 09:39 PM

In the antebellum south , Sicilians were actually designated as blacks

They were victims of the biggest lynching incident ever in New Orleans , when a bunch of them were rounded up and lynched because they were through to have killed a police sergeant but the general consensus that they (anglo americans) were just gung ho to lynch any Sicilian they saw
Posted By: Giancarlo

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/27/13 10:38 PM


Well you know what they say about those dark skin sicilians. lol

Posted By: Lilo

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/27/13 11:15 PM

Southern Italians in particular were not considered by all and sundry to be "white" until some time after WW2. The book "An offer we can't refuse" by George DeStefano goes into the perceptions in some detail.

There was a famous case in 1922 Alabama where a black man was convicted of having consensual sex with a white woman but a higher court threw out the conviction because it was not convinced that the woman, of Sicilian ancestry, was white. Similarly people like Louis Prima occasionally had trouble getting work in some NY clubs because people wanted to make sure he wasn't a black man trying to pass. And of course in 1925 the Irish gangster Peg Leg Lonergan, the night he was killed, chased off three Irish women with Italian dates, telling them to "come back with white men".
Posted By: ht2

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/27/13 11:52 PM

Originally Posted By: ManGauge
In the antebellum south , Sicilians were actually designated as blacks

They were victims of the biggest lynching incident ever in New Orleans , when a bunch of them were rounded up and lynched because they were through to have killed a police sergeant but the general consensus that they (anglo americans) were just gung ho to lynch any Sicilian they saw


There were other incidents as well. A few years later in 1899, there was another lynching of 5 Italians in Tallulah, Lousiana over a dispute involving a goat owned by one of the victims. Three years later in 1901, two Italians were lynched in Irwin, Mississippi.
Posted By: ht2

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/27/13 11:57 PM

This is from a newspaper (The Daily Iowa Capital) in 1899:

In the South "the average man will classify the population as whites, dagoes, and negroes. This is the explanation of the lynching of Italians in Louisiana... The unwritten law of the state is that a white man shall not be lynched. No matter what his crime, he is entitled to trial by law and a legal execution. The only exception is the Italian, who in this respect has been placed on terms of equality with the negro.

Posted By: DiLorenzo

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/28/13 12:53 AM

Forget ''olive skinned'' We were considered to be the bottom of the barrel in this country, and yet our parent's never protested, never had ''activists'' saying they were victims, and would never accept welfare...My father grew up in a roach/mice infested home, and lived the american dream of working hard, and died a millionaire...That should be, and is the real history of italian immigrants !!!
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/28/13 03:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Giancarlo

Well you know what they say about those dark skin sicilians. lol



As entertaining as that scene, and movie, is; I'm not sure it's entirely accurate. The Moors were closer to Arabs than Africans. And, though slightly darker in complexion, were not black.
Posted By: BaltimoreSteel69

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/28/13 12:00 PM


Yeah, I read about lynchings of Sicilians in New Orleans during the 1920's after a police chief was murdered.
Posted By: BaltimoreSteel69

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/28/13 12:02 PM


The state of Louisiana is so backwards. I used to attend school down there. The socialization of folks down there is still rooted in very old, antiquated ways of thinking.
Posted By: BaltimoreSteel69

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/28/13 12:03 PM


Thanks for everyone's input. We can discuss this intelligently.
Posted By: BaltimoreSteel69

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/28/13 12:05 PM



Well, I don't know where you're getting this historical information from. The original Arabs were Blacks to begin with. That whole term, "Arab" is debatable.






Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: Giancarlo

Well you know what they say about those dark skin sicilians. lol



As entertaining as that scene, and movie, is; I'm not sure it's entirely accurate. The Moors were closer to Arabs than Africans. And, though slightly darker in complexion, were not black.
Posted By: BaltimoreSteel69

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/28/13 12:07 PM


History is so complex, there is so much we don't know of each other's story. People think that Africans in America were the only group who were lynched, murdered in this country because of the color and ethnic background. Interesting.


Originally Posted By: ht2
Originally Posted By: ManGauge
In the antebellum south , Sicilians were actually designated as blacks

They were victims of the biggest lynching incident ever in New Orleans , when a bunch of them were rounded up and lynched because they were through to have killed a police sergeant but the general consensus that they (anglo americans) were just gung ho to lynch any Sicilian they saw


There were other incidents as well. A few years later in 1899, there was another lynching of 5 Italians in Tallulah, Lousiana over a dispute involving a goat owned by one of the victims. Three years later in 1901, two Italians were lynched in Irwin, Mississippi.

Posted By: TonyBoy117

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/28/13 01:56 PM

Fuck you guys, Just Becouse of the type of forum we are on dosent mean you can be racist pricks, somebody had to say it.
Posted By: TheKillingJoke

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/28/13 04:58 PM

Originally Posted By: BaltimoreSteel69


Well, I don't know where you're getting this historical information from. The original Arabs were Blacks to begin with. That whole term, "Arab" is debatable.



Historians argue that everyone was Black to begin with
Posted By: johnnyboysala

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/29/13 10:36 AM

Originally Posted By: TonyBoy117
Fuck you guys, Just Becouse of the type of forum we are on dosent mean you can be racist pricks, somebody had to say it.


Personally i thought that for a debate on race on the Internet, this thread was surprisingly NON racist! BaltimoreSteel makes a good point. I had no idea Sicilians were lynched. As he suggested, I'd wrongly assumed it had only really happened to those of African descent. It really is interesting to discover otherwise. Nothing racist about it.
Posted By: ThePolakVet

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/29/13 12:19 PM

I didn't even know that had happened to Italians in USA, I remember I was watching this movie where a guy goes to a hotel in LA. And because he's brown skinned, the hotel administrator says she doesn't give rooms to Mexicans. Then he says that he's not a Mexican, but he's Italian and then she gives him the room.
Posted By: TonyBoy117

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/29/13 12:37 PM

The tittle of the thread itself is irritating
Posted By: Mastronardo

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/29/13 01:04 PM

Originally Posted By: TonyBoy117
The tittle of the thread itself is irritating


The fact that you misspell the word 'title' is irritating.
Posted By: m2w

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 03/29/13 03:46 PM

i read that only southern italians weren't considered white, the northern italians were
but at that time italians were the most hated among immigrants in the states thats coz they classified them as not white
Posted By: Mastronardo

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 04/06/13 07:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Giancarlo

Well you know what they say about those dark skin sicilians. lol



"You're part eggplant." Good movie!
Posted By: tommykarate

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 04/07/13 02:27 AM

Pay wise Italians were below the blacks chinese irish or whoever else on the railroads and such.they were def not thought very highly of
Posted By: Lilo

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 04/07/13 03:49 AM

Quote:
In its decision in the case of U.S. v. Bhagat Singh Thind (1923), the Supreme Court deemed Asian Indians ineligible for citizenship because U.S. law allowed only free whites to become naturalized citizens.

What we now hold is that the words “free white persons” are words of common speech, to be interpreted in accordance with the understanding of the common man, synonymous with the word “Caucasian” only as that word is popularly understood. As so understood and used, whatever may be the speculations of the ethnologist, it does not include the body of people to whom the appellee belongs. It is a matter of familiar observation and knowledge that the physical group characteristics of the Hindus render them readily distinguishable from the various groups of persons in this country commonly recognized as white. The children of English, French, German, Italian, Scandinavian, and other European parentage, quickly merge into the mass of our population and lose the distinctive hallmarks of their European origin.



http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=261&page=204

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Bhagat_Singh_Thind

Quote:
The succeeding years brought immigrants from Eastern, Southern and Middle Europe, among them the Slavs and the dark-eyed, swarthy people of Alpine and Mediterranean stock, and these were received as unquestionably akin to those already here and readily amalgamated with them. It was the descendants of these, and [261 U.S. 204, 214] other immigrants of like origin, who constituted the white population of the country when section 2169, re-enacting the naturalization test of 1790, was adopted, and, there is no reason to doubt, with like intent and meaning.
Posted By: lic

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 09/15/13 06:33 PM

i mean its complicated, i still dont consider sicilian imigrants white, most of there ancestors were north africans(moors).... northern italians ancestors are closer aligned with germanic.. just like switzerland... sicilians and some other medertarians have large percentages of north african DNA as much as they hate it... sicilians, portuguese, some spainards(not basques) basques are the cousins of celtics(irish,welsh,highland scottish, cornish and manx).. its all so complicated... we will never be able to define our ethncities or hertigae completley, theres been mixing since the beginign of time...Although i do agree that many DAGO'S are decietful and shady.... its in there nature just like jews are academics, irish have short tempers etc... IN CLOSING SICILIANS HAVE JUST AS MUCH AFRICAN DNA AS THEY DO EUROPEAN IF NOT MORE.... THERE EVEN SAYING THESE DAYS THAT US NORTHERN EUROPEANS HAVE SOME NEANDERTHAL DNA... WHICH IS UNCERTIAN AND CONFUSING... HOW COULD TWO DIFFERNT SPECIES SCREW??
Posted By: lic

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 09/15/13 06:36 PM

That being said, just to pis of some DAGO'S.... YOUS ARE BLACK... YOUR FEMALE ANCESTORS GOT IT IN WITH SOME JIGS... NO DOUBT ABOUT IT... STIRRING THE POT.
Posted By: Dellacroce

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 09/15/13 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: lic
That being said, just to pis of some DAGO'S.... YOUS ARE BLACK... YOUR FEMALE ANCESTORS GOT IT IN WITH SOME JIGS... NO DOUBT ABOUT IT... STIRRING THE POT.

What are you, some dirty irish pig? grin
Posted By: SC

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 09/15/13 07:32 PM

Originally Posted By: lic
That being said, just to pis of some DAGO'S.... YOUS ARE BLACK... YOUR FEMALE ANCESTORS GOT IT IN WITH SOME JIGS... NO DOUBT ABOUT IT... STIRRING THE POT.


Somebody sure wants a vacation. I'm only too glad to oblige him.
Posted By: F_white

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 09/15/13 08:23 PM

Crazy talk.
Posted By: Tony_Pro

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 09/16/13 03:15 AM

The above is also the reason that many mafiaoso took Irish surnames in the prohibition era, pretending to be Irish was a (small) step up the social ladder, Irish ganagsters were still somewhat on top and cultivating connections to Irish politicians didn't hurt either.
Posted By: Thaddeus

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 09/16/13 03:45 AM

Even today this is interesting topic. Where I grew up in Rhode Island it's about half Italian and it's a given there that Italians are white. Different from the Irish, German and what have you in nationality, but certainly not race. In Rhode island if you were to say to someone "you aren't white, you're Italian" you may very well have a fight on your hands. However, here in California I can't tell you how many so called Italians I've heard say "I'm not white, I'm Italian." Granted, CA is a strange place. I've also heard Irish claim they aren't white here. Like you can get whiter than an Irishman. It all comes down to definitions. What is "white"?
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 09/16/13 06:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Thaddeus
What is "white"?


Someone who is Caucasian. Both Italians and Irish would fall under that category. Maybe when they say they aren't white, it's because they consider "white" to mean WASP's. But that's just a case of them changing the definition of the term.
Posted By: stern49

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 09/16/13 06:36 AM

I've met Sicilians that were as dark as some people from India and then saw some that were as white as Germans. So it all depends. I look at facial features instead of skin when judging what culture someone is.

Southern Italian is not really white, especially Sicilians having Arab-African and Spanish blood.
Posted By: Ville

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 09/16/13 07:13 AM

Alot of people say we are all of Mediterranean descent. And do to climate changes and the areas we come from, our skin color adapted. I'm an Irish-American and we came to the US before the Italians and we weren't considered white by the wasps and other Americans. I'm not saying this in a racist mannar at all, just stating fact. The irish were called ni**ers before blacks were when we first migrated here. The same thing happened to the irish that happened with the Siclians and Arabs. The Irish were invaded by the spanish, hence the term black irish. There's alot of Irish with dark skin, eyes, and hair. I myself am blued eyed with dirty blonde hair and have been olive skinned my whole life. When it's all said and done be it your Irish, Italian, or any nationality, all our ancestors have gone through this if you read back far enough
Posted By: stern49

Re: Italians weren't considered "white" in US? - 09/16/13 07:57 AM

Yeah, that's the Black Irish though. Black Irish are mostly from an area called Galway. That's where the Spanish landed. But even the Black Irish have more white features and not as tan as than say a dark Southern Italian.
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