Question on present day Chicago Mob

Hey all I'm new around here but studying Organized crime is nothing new to me. I wanted to know your opinions on the power and size of the present day outfit in Chicago. You see wiki says that the membership ranges from 50-200 and that is has 1000 associates. If to your estimates this is true what kind of crimes are they involved in, do they stay away from drugs? I've heard they are staying very low key hence why there isn't much info on them like the other Italian-American crime families. So yeah, can anyone help, anyone got any charts and accurate info? Thanks, Antonio.

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=650349#Post650349 check out this thread...

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Info on Wiki is inaccurate,there are about 30 made members and little over 100 associates.

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Regarding the above chart: Just FYI, it's not wrong per se, but if I remember correctly it goes ahead and lists the "de facto" made guys (i.e., the guys who aren't formally made due to the Outfit's ambivalence toward the official ceremony, but who essentially have the status of a made guy) as "soldiers", and it is relatively generous in its definition of "associates".

Really only 30 made men and 100 associates? That just seems a little strange because not even the Philadelphia Mafia was that small back in the day and the Chicago outfit was much bigger than the Philadelphia Mafia. Is it safe to say that around 40 made members are there, it would make sense as a Capo or "capodecina" would have about 10 soldiers each. Along with that 100 associates just doesn't seem like enough to cover a big city like Chicago with illegal gambling, Loan Sharking and extortion operations.

Not to mention that Chart I swear had an Indianapolis connection as well.

That chart makes the family look fucking massive

Tell me about it. From a distance (if you didnt know it was about the Outfit) I would think it was a chart of all the made guys in NYC.

I don't believe there has ever been a Cosa Nostra presence there.

Personally I don't blame the mob for not going there. (kidding!)

lol

And that's because it probably includes every Tom, Dick, and Harry who's ever had some contact with the Outfit in any way. As I've mentioned before, it's usually up to the local SAC to estimate the number of associates. And that's going to depend on how they define an associate.



The modern day Outfit is a much smaller and more streamlined organization than it once was. In fact, in terms of both size and activity, it's very similar to Philadelphia. Much more so than being comparable to any of the NY families.

In 2007, the FBI specifically cited 28 "made" members. Of course, in Chicago you do have guys who have never gone through the ceremony - and so are not technically "made" - but who have membership status. A guy like Joey Lombardo, for instance.

In any event, taking members (both formally made or otherwise), as well as associates, it's a total manpower of about 150. Which is what the estimates of the New England and Philadelphia families are currently at.

New England and Philly with 150 total men? That seems too high.

I'm almost positive I read on some board that the chart lists juice loan customers as "associates", but I'll be damned if I can remember where.

They both have 40-50 made members. And most recent associate estimate have put them around 100 each.

Why is frank calabrese listed as a soldier on that chart, when he was a former boss himself.

According to this chart Philadelphia Family is much smaller

Edit: Just posted picture of John DiFronzo from 1952,in thread "Rare Photos"

I want to thank whoever makes these charts. It's interesting being able to put faces to names.

Thanks all for your helpful replies, especially Ivy League (BTW did you get your name from the nickname of the Genovese family). I never knew the Mafia families outside of NY were this small, I suppose it makes sense though but they all resemble a Soprano like family instead of something out of the movie Goodfellas and Casino. The Outfit is really starting to interest me though, it just seems very low key, old school and secretive that not even the government ca put a key figure on it. Thanks all.

Those 100 associates are the ones who work closely with the families and are part of their manpower. If you include all the people who do business with them the numbers would probably be higher.

He was a made guy, he was not a boss.

For some reason, in the chicago papers and news stations, they refer to many people as a boss.

Captains in Chicago are usually called the "boss" of a crew and I don't think Calabrese was ever even the boss of a geographical crew.

He was the "boss" of his own crew, since he was a made guy, but he was never a boss of a geographical crew.

They called Sarno a boss, but I don't think he was even made. He may have been, but he for sure was not a boss.

These picture charts are compiled by certain posters on the forums. While not taking away from their work, I tend to put a lot more weight on the most recent estimates, by the feds, of these families. And the estimates for New England, Philadelphia, and Chicago have all been more or less the same.

Furthermore, if the Outfit were so much bigger, as some still think (almost putting it on par with the NY families) you'd expect to see significantly more activity in Chicago than New England or Philadelphia. But you don't. The amount of indictments over the past decade are also comparable.

I think it might actually be fewer indictments for current ongoing activity in Chicago. Family Secrets made the Outfit seem a lot prominent that it actually is, but that was stuff from the 80s and earlier.

From what I've gathered the Outfit ever since it's big bust in the 80's with the Casino's leading to the murder convictions brought up in Family trials, the mob in chicago probably want to have a break and just keep low key and carry on traditional mob crimes. Such as gambling, Loan Sharking and extortion. It is also said to be involved to and extent still in the unions and has many legitimate businesses. Numbers wise I'm not sure what to make of it, I suppose 30 members and 100 associates sounds right, but I did expect more since wasn't the Chicago mob in the 80's bigger than the Philly mob in the 80's? And now they are the same size?

Recent indictments also show how they were involved with a Biker gang performing robberies. Also that cop was arrested for involvement in a national scale jewelry theft ring. If you ask me, they still got some good money makers going on, but no drugs to keep the heat off. This way they will probably start to rebuild slowly but probably keep the numbers down as well..

It's like what I like to call "a Reservoir Dogs family" except everyone is Italian

People forget how hard the Outfit got hit in the 1980's and 1990's. Relatively speaking, as much as any other family. And though it may have been larger than, say, Philadelphia in the past; I'm not sure the difference was that significant. In my opinion, a lot of the estimates we've seen for Chicago in earlier decades were inflated. And both in the past and today, I think the difference in Chicago is more the member-to-associate ratio than overall manpower. As for the actual members themselves, the Outfit started using the ceremony later on and seems to be much more careful about who they let in. They're more about keeping a smaller core and a low profile than keeping a certain membership quota. It makes for short term quality but can hurt long term viability in terms of general attrition.

In terms of their rackets, gambling (bookmaking and video poker) is their main business, just like the New England or Philadelphia families. Loansharking also. Extortion? It's probably a safe bet that certain things like independent bookies and mob-connected burglary rings pay the "street tax." And maybe certain businesses like strip clubs or porn shops. But I don't think there's a widespread shaking down of legit businesses in Chicago today. And the Outfit doesn't have the muscle to take a piece of any and all criminal activity. As you said, they have very little interest in narcotics. And, while there's still some influence, over the last decade there's been limited activity in labor union racketeering. Of course, there are Outfit guys who have legit interests - construction and trucking companies, real estate, restaurants, etc.

The Outfit has, in my opinion, been a minor-league operation since GAMBAT, Strawman, and their substantial removal from labor unions. These three things turned the Outfit from a powerhouse to just another street operation, for the most part. They've never recovered and they never will.



Now this is an excellent point. People are always going on about how the Outfit lets in very few members and is oh so discriminating and selective but... has there ever been anything else in the past that was a better way of ensuring the final destruction of a crime family? If you've got a family down to a handful of capable guys, this might superficially seem like effective streamlining, but what happens if one of them flips? Everyone in the family who matters gets RICOed, and the family is toast. The only real demonstrable effect of mob family streamlining/downsizing/exclusiveness is this: it makes it possible to cram the entire family into a singe RICO case.

Cleveland and Pittsburgh, for example. Scalish and Mike Genovese refused to make people; they kept the families small. This might have benefited them personally in terms of moneymaking and insulation (both died old, free and rich), but as soon as one of the core guys flipped (Lonardo in Cleveland, Porter/Strollo in Pittsburgh), the families were destroyed. I think downsizing is a seriously bad idea if the mobsters want "the tradition" to continue. But I seriously doubt that the rich ones care about that silliness as much as mob message board posters.

Same thing if a boss or a powerful capo in NYC flips, a bunch of people go down.

IMO, streamlined means they went from 6 to 4 crews, they didn't get rid of any layers. That would be crazy. Still have the layers that keep the top people infiltrated.

The Outfit was hit hard in the 80's and 90's, for sure.

Will be interesting to see what happens to the outfit in the 20 years. After DiFronzo dies (he's 83-84 I believe) it will be interesting to see if there is a huge change in the outfit profile, or a continuation of the same.

Strange thing is the Outfit has never really had a problem with rats, one made guy (Nick C), so I think the lowering of numbers is more a self inflicted thing more than a way to keep people from ratting.

Pricking some guys finger is just asking for trouble, IMO.

I'm not convinced the Outfit still has those layers it once had and which people still attribute to it. I'm not talking about charts people compile online. But an actual official chart released by the feds, showing such a hierarchical Outfit. All we hear about, mainly in articles, is who may be in the administration, whoever is the crew boss (i.e. captain) over a crew, and then soldiers and associates. Sounds pretty standard to me.

Look at the other small families remaining - New England, New Jersey, and Philadelphia. The numbers are relatively small, especially active guys on the street, so it's not like there's really a need for so many extra layers of insulation. Top bosses, area bosses, crew bosses, street bosses, blah, blah, blah. Personally, I think that's another image of the Outfit that is likely outdated.

I don't think the outfit ever had any difference in layers. Maybe I'm not being clear, but I think they still have the same hierarchy of (This is from an ANP poster)

Chairman: DiFronzo
Overall Boss: D'Amico
Crew Boss:??
Crew #2:??
Made Guy:??
Soldier:??

Maybe its not as formal, but I think its all there. IMO, it would be crazy not to. It would be asking to have trouble. Maybe you have smaller numbers, but you still have to have layers to insulate yourself.

The way guy on ANP broke it down was that it's still the same, with the aforementioned structure, it just may be smaller number of crews and guys.

I think the insulation is needed, no matter the number of guys. If the boss and the chairman want to talk, they have a go between. If a crew boss and the boss want to talk they each have go between's.

Without insulation, its like the poster said, one guy flips and everybody goes down. So you keep the crews separate and you keep the layers there to insulate the top people.

Where did you get that Marco D'Amico is the over all boss? I know Scott Bernstein (mcscott) has said D'Amico may be in the administration but that hasn't been officially confirmed yet.

With Marcello and Lombardo out of the picture, and now Sarno, you've got the other two old standbys - DiFronzo and Andriacchi, though they're both getting old and there are rumors about the latter's health.

There were two posters on ANP that seemed to be very informed on the past and current outfit. They were Black Angelo and The Don. They could have been 100% full of shit, but they seemed to know a ton of stuff and had tons of info.

One of them, can't remember which, said that D'Amico had become the boss when he got out in 2005 and that DiFronzo had become the chairman. That D'Amico had been put in charge of the day to day stuff. I don't remember where he had The Builder, but I think he was in an advisory role.

He said that they were down to four crews, and that each crew had a #1 or chairmen and a #2 or street boss, that was in charge. The #2 handled the day to day stuff and the #1 was able to earn.

These guys all had runners that helped them communicate between the crews and the administration.

He also said D'Amico was the reason behind Zizzo disappearing, that he wasn't or didn't want to go along with the way things were going to go with Marcello being gone and D'Amico being in charge.

I will check again and see who he had in charge of the crews.

While online information from other people can be both useful and interesting, I always take it with a grain of salt. Because, obviously, there's no way to verify who they are or how they know what they claim to know.

From what I've read on the Zizzo disappearance, it was due to disagreements with the Marcellos and Sarno. Which would make more sense, since they were all part of the Cicero/Melrose Park crew, than a beef with D'Amico; who I believe is more aligned with the Elmwood Park crew on the North Side.

As for the crews, it's true that it was revealed during the "Family Secrets" case in 2005 that there were four crews - the Elmwood Park/North Side crew, the Grand Avenue/West Side crew, the Cicero/Melrose Park crew, and the 26th Street/South Side crew.

At least at that point, it was said that, while John DiFronzo and Joseph Andriacchi had over all oversight of the Outfit, they still maintained oversight of the Elmwood Park/North Side crew; which they did through Peter DiFronzo and Rudy Fratto.

It was said Joey Lombardo had continued to maintain over all oversight of the Grand Avenue/West Side crew; through Anthony Centracchio until he died in 2001. More recently there were rumors that Joe Cullotta was running the crew. And now the latest rumor is that Albert Vena is.

It was said that Jimmy Marcello had run the Cicero/Melrose Park crew before he became part of the administration. Afterward you had Tony Chiarmonti and Tony Zizzo in the mix. And later Mike Sarno, who apparently eventually became the new Outfit boss (at least one of them) after Marcello was behind bars.

It's been long said that the Carusos continue to run the 26th Street/South Side crew.

To add to the information that has come in recent years, a few years ago it was reported that the Outfit was being run in "northern and southern sections." And that, while Joseph Andriacchi oversaw the north, Al Tornebene oversaw the south. There really wasn't any explanation beyond that. Was it something similar to having 2 area bosses, much the same way there used to be 3 area bosses? Did the north side area, under Andriacchi, consists of the Elmwood Park and Grand Avenue crews? And did the south side area, under Tornebene, consist of the Melrose Park and 26th Street crews? One can only guess.

To add to the confusion, another article around the same time said that Andriacchi had oversight of all four crews. And he was sort of the underboss or street boss for DiFronzo.

Beyond that, one FBI official made a statement in a more recent article that the Outfit was down to "two or three crews." But he also didn't expound beyond that.

Needless to say, it's often hard to add everything up because of the conflicting information. But, in my opinion, it wouldn't surprise me if we were now looking at 2 or 3 crews. DiFronzo, Andriacchi, and the rest of the Elmwood Park crew are reported to be involved more in legit businesses and not so much in the street rackets. Meanwhile, you have the Melrose Park and 26th Street crew who are more into the gambling, loansharking, burglary rings, etc. And, after former Melrose Park crew boss, Jimmy Marcello, eventually became the boss; Sarno then followed him into that position. And it was reported that the Carusos were paying tribute to Sarno. Meanwhile, you don't hear a lot coming from the Grand Avenue besides internet rumor.

Yeah, all internet sources should be taken with a grain of salt or alot. But these guys seemed to know there stuff, alot of it. One of them, forgot which one, was "outed" by Fosco as, I think, The Clown Lombardo's nephew. The posters started attacking Fosco and his claims of extortion, so he got upset and let that out there.

From what they said, was that Zizzo either wanted the top spot or didn't want to be under D'Amico. So D'Amico had him go because he wasn't going to play along.

They all said that Sarno wasn't a crew boss, that he was just a made guy. That he was under Zizzo. Just what they said.

I believe Fratto was shelved and I think he was only a solider, not a crew boss.

From what they said, the crew bosses were Pete DiFronzo/The Builder, Jimmy I, Caruso, and Solly D.

I know Vina is in there somewhere, but I'm not sure where. Could be someones street boss. They said the crews each had a boss and a #2/street boss.

I had heard/read the rumor about the split to North and South as well. Would make sense, but who knows.

I had not heard the rumors of Caruso paying Sarno. That would be very surprising to me.

As always, who knows. This is why I find Chicago so fascinating. Just seems that there is so much less info out there about them and even to this day there old stuff is less well known.

Now if only Nick Calabrese would write a book or somebody else flip so that we can get some straight answers.

Despite what these internet insiders say, and there's always a legion of them, the feds pegged Sarno as not only a crew boss, but as one of the top bosses overall.

And there shouldn't be any question which source holds more weight.

And Caruso kicking up to Sarno wasn't just an internet rumor. It was mentioned in an article, the information coming from an unnamed informant.

Damn, that makes Sarno far more of a power house than I previously thought, and I know far more about Sarno than I know about Caruso. Shit, I've seen one picture of "Toots" and it's him looking like a university professor in Rome.

It seems to me that Sarno followed in the footsteps of Marcello. First in charge of the Cicero/Melrose Park crew. Then one of the overall bosses of the Outfit.

Caruso and his brothers was kicked out the Laborers Union back in 2001. Here's a couple photos.

I didn't know there were so many other ethnicities present in the Outfit.
Judging from the associates' names they have a load of Greek, Irish, Polish, Czech, Hungarian, Jewish and Yank associates.

On the modern Outfit chart we all use (which in other ways is already outdated) I remember Frank Caruso as a capo and Mike Sarno as a street boss for Pudgy Matassa. Which doesn't make any sense. I wonder if Matassa ended up kicking up to him as well? On ANP they mentioned he was never too respected, but he got made around the time Frank Calabrese did.

Anyway, he succeeds Marcello and he still isn't made. Unfortunately for us crime historians, he was sentenced to 25 years before we could figure out what the hell really happened. Maybe some day another informant will tell us.

Sarno is considered a "made member" of the mob according to federal law enforcement officials, because he participated in an official "making" ceremony.
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/iteam&id=7609408

And, again, that chart you're referring to isn't official. It was simply compiled by two Real Deal forum members.

I know. But the fact is those charts are often seen as fact and I was pointing out why you can't view it as such.

I'll look in to the Sarno thing, thanks. I guess my info was a bit outdated. I was referring to how at one point he asked Marco D'amico to get made and D'amico declined.

Marcello and Sarno partners. Marcello reached out from custody and had Zizzo killed?

Supposedly Zizzo had a very heated argument with Mickey Marcello and Frank Schweihs a short time before he disappeared. Plus the beef with Sarno, which was probably related. And this is all in the same crew. So, yeah, I'd bet that Jimmy Marcello gave his OK for it.