Who was behind the hit on Montanga?

I know it's still very early but do you think the Rizzuto's are finally striking back?

At this point I really don't know.

To gain some clues you need to consider the following things:

• Montagna made several trips to Ontario just before the killings took place, thereby strongly indicating that Montagna alligned himself with Ontario mafiosi.
• Montagna visisted Nick Rizzuto shortly before he was killed and supposedly told Rizzuto that his reign was over.
• After the killings it was thought that Montagna was part of the new leadership and was seeking to become the new boss.
• It's stated that Montagna recently tried to muscle in on construction projects in Montreal.
• Apparantly, in September there was a mob meeting in Montreal during which representatives from Hamilton and Ontario abruptly left that meeting.
• In October LoPresti was killed and it was thought that he was a supporter of Montagna.
• It's been stated that Tony Mucci was seen in the neighborhood where Montagna was killed in the weeks leading to the murder.

It's not the Rizzutos hitting back, it's the same group who's been doing this since day 1.

It was not the same "group" anymore because Montagna was previously also part of it.

Montagna was part of a group, most likely new Sicilians backed up Ontario. The same group is still gunning for them, eliminating any rebellious factions who don't fall in line.

Montagna, Lopresti and Desjardins were the result of wanting to break off I believe.

it was whitey bulger

he escaped custody and took out montagna to distract the media from his still-undisclosed escape

So you think the groups isn't led by Di Maulo and the Cotronis?

Di Maulo-Cotroni group is part of the coalition, but the main source of vendetta is Hamilton.

I'm wondering. Due to the fact Montagna was a Bonanno leader wouuldn't who ever killed him have to watch their back from other Bonanno's?

I agree.

Mussolini, there was this thread here that you might get some info from:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=621369#Post621369

But you mentioned Sicilians, possibly the Arcuris?

Montagna was close to the Arcuris........so yes that makes them part of the plot.

maybe montagna group allied with di maulo at first to took over the rizzuto's and after deleting them the two groups started fighting eachother
but montagna answers to bonanno's he didn't do all by himself

Was NYC part of the plot?.......after Montagnas murder, most definitely yes.

To what extent is unknown, but the real source of revenge is Hamilton.

As one Italian journalist said, this is a coalliton of sorts to redraw the criminal map in Montreal and Canada.

Ontario, NYC and Montreal are now more entrenched than ever.

i think that ontario groups have absolutely nothing to do with it, the fact that some italian journalists clown said it doesn't mean it's the truth
so according to you the ontario grous who are historically far weaker than montreal mafai moved war to rizzuto's and montagna? it's impossible

To think they are far weaker is naive.

Because they are less visible and more entrenched into main stream society doesn't make them weaker. I wouldn't call the Siderno Group and Hamilton weaker. They've actually grown in power over the last 20 years, because the Ndrangheta has too.

Like I said, it's not just Ontario here, it's Ontario plus Montreal Mafiosi.

i think they are weaker and according to local police they are weaker i bet
the growing ndrangheta in italy is right, but in canada the sicilians remain the strongest group by far

"Were the strongest group by far"......would be more accurate.

The Sicilians no longer dominate the heroin-cocaine trade in North America or Canada for that matter. The Hells Angels have their own supply routes these days and no longer need to buy from the Sicilians like they used to in the 80s and 90s.

Times have changed.

i never said they dominate the heroin or cocaine trade, they are sure involved but nobody really dominates it
but sure the sicilian cells in canada far exceed the calabrian ones in that country

Not in terms of numbers or population that's for sure.

9 Locals and Hamilton's 3 groups far exceed the Sicilian numbers in 2011.

The thing is, while the murders of Rizzuto and his allies seemed to be very well plannend and carried out with extreme efficiency, Montagna's murder certainly was not. This means that it was probably carried out by another group.

If the assumptions about that supposed mob meeting are true, I'm considering two possible scenarios:

1. Montagna could have been involved in a dispute with Montreal AND Ontario mafiosi, and his murder could therefore have been ordered by Ontario and carried out by local mobsters.

Or,

2. Montagna AND Ontario mafiosi became involved in a dispute with Montreal mafiosi which suggests a possible break in that coalition.

Both are equally plausible IMO. But I'm tending to believe more in the second scenario. If Montagna knew he had no more allies, he would have likely been more warry to meet with other gangsters, possibly even unarmed and without a bodyguard. Montagna's trips to Ontario, and considering that the first murders were most likely organized by Hamilton, suggest he was allied with Ontario mobsters.

I'm not sure about that, if Ivyleague AKA wiseguy's statement is correct, namingly that the Toronto locali consisted of only 40 members.

where did you hear montagna met ontario mobsters? i heard he met nick rizzuto and told him to stay away but any meeting in ontario

Montagna was a middle man for both groups and was trying to become top dog in Montreal while doing so.

The next murder will determine what`s going on but there seems to be a pattern and so far, anybody Sicilian and close to the Rizzuto or involved with them is being executed.

Montagna wanted a big slice and truth be told, why would some Bonnano boss be able to run Montreal?......he`s only lived here for two years and could have all the contacts in the world, but he`s not part of local social fabric.

And the guy barely speaks any french, not a good thing.

Apparantly the writers of Mafia Inc. heard it.

if montagna like you said can't be able to run montreal i don't see like anyone from ontario could

Nobody from Ontario will run Montreal.

Were they part of the plot?......yes.

Will they be calling the shots now?......no.

Why would Ontario mafiosi need Montagna as a middle man between them and Montreal? Those guys probably knew and worked with each other long before Montagna came to the scene. I think he was rather a middle man between them and New York, and maybe the Rizzuto murders were approved by New York through Montagna. I would go as far as suggesting that Montagna even initiated it. However, he still remained an outsider to local mafiosi.



There seems to be a pattern indeed, but much of the evidence that we have suggests that Montagna wasn't exactly involved with the Rizzutos.



True that. It seems like Montagna was killed by local mafiosi who probably had more than enough of his manoeuvres. But I doubt that it was actually carried out by the same coalition.

The hit was ordered and approved from Hamilton it seems, with little NYC involvement but I'm sure they had a say or blinked an eye.

Montagna wasn't a Rizzuto ally but he was gunning for top dog amongst the Sicilians, hence his close ties to the Arcuris and other Montreal sources have also told me so. He wanted to retain a Sicilian hegemony on the island and take over Rizzuto operations.

That's what most probably caused his death.

The hit on Montagna? If so, how does it seem it was ordered by Hamilton?

Sources have indicated so, I will find the article but search on google for " deadly revenge stalked boss " and you should see it.

The hit on Rizzuto SR that is!....my appologies.

I thought so.

Anyway thanks for the feedback!

the hit was not approved or ordered by hamilton, what hamilton is? i know it was just a cell of buffalo lcn led by papalia in the past nothing more
new york has tons of connections it's logic and more probable they are behind it, people like toto catalano could be involved too

Yes and so is the Pope.

i'm almost sure the bonanno's planned all the took over, i think toto catalano could be the boss at this point

Sit tight guys, the truth will out, it usually does eventually.

It definitely will Nicky but it's so much fun to hypothesize what's going to happen! Especially when we see an actual "war" going on. THe last one I remember was when Galante got clipped and the fallout that ensued from that (which was pretty crazy).

Montagna is behind all RIZZUTO family murders. This guy had balls. He wanted the throne from the old man and he wanted all unpaid tribute money from all years never paid to the bonnano family. Old nick refused and now he's dead. Montagnas style was too aggressive for Montreal. Here business comes first not status. New York wiseguys have reputations of being rats whereas Montreal wiseguys don't. He wasn't a good fit for Montreal. Believe me the last I heard was that his fate was decided during Loprestis funeral.

He couldn't have been at this alone and had backing from Hamilton.

So you're saying the Rizzuto clan is fighting back or the Montreal mob as a whole?

of course he couldn't have been at this alone, but he was obviously involved in
i don't know who are his allies, maybe the cotroni's maybe not, but why they killed him and go against ny?
i think ny planned all since montagna was sent there

Can you elaborate more? Do you work for LE?

It sounds pretty logical to me that Montagna had a hand in organizing those killings. But the Violi brothers were very likely involved too, and possibly 'Ndrangheta elements.

The Bonannos probably gave him permission to become the new caporegime in Montreal. That's why Rizzuto said that the wouldn't take orders from him. And likely also because Rizzuto thought he was Montagna's senior, which he was. And therefore Montagna organized his murder, after forming allegiances with the Ontario families and establishing a powerbase.

But in the end, Montreal mafiosi decided that Montreal should be for themselves and they took him out. They didn't want another tyrant. Montagna was probably considered an outsider and he apparantly had made some enemies, respected enough to order his "disappearance".

The exact reason why Montagna was killed remains unknown and at this stage we can only speculate. But it sounds plausible to me that he had started to act too much like a top-dog.

Sounds likely, Sonny.
Good post!

If I was a betting man I would say this is the most probable scenario.

It will be interesting to see how things play out.

Good explanation Sonny. Do you think Montanga's killers got the nod from the Bonanno's? If Sal was the Montreal capo they must have been expecting a decent amount of residual tribute money and they must be pretty agitated to see those plan foiled unless some arrangements were made before Sal was whacked to keep the cash flowing to NY.

It's worth mentioning that the Bonannos didn't "send" Sal anywhere, the United States government did. He was deported, and at that point he probably decided to make the most of it.

The idea that an American was going to take over in Montreal is as ridiculous as the idea of a Canadian coming to Brooklyn or the Bronx and doing the same.

Do you agree with the view point that American LCN members see themselves as Americans first and Italians second and Canadian gangsters of Italian descent see themselves as Italians first and Canadians second? d

I think that today, because of assimilation and general attrition, there's certainly some truth to that. But if you give the Canadian born Italians a few generations to assimilate, they'll more than likely see themselves as Canadian first. But for a lot of those Italian-Canadian families, that won't be for a good while, so you make a valid point.

I'm an Italian from Montreal and have some friends in NYC who are of Italian descent and there is a difference for sure.

In the States, people see themselves as American first and then Italian, where as in Canada especially in Toronto and Montreal, we consider ourselves more Italian than Canadian.

That being said, the Canadian immigration wave is more recent and most Italians, mafiosi included came here int he mid 50's, while American LCN has been around for close to a century.

That's why Italians in Montreal and Toronto are more fluent in Italian and dialects than their American counterparts, thus the stronger links to Italy.

We don't have Zips here, they're just part of the crime scene.

That's my point, Dave. The Italian families in Canada have been there for 50 years, tops. Give it another couple of generations, and I'm sure you'll see assimilation along the lines of what we've seen here in the States.

Also worth mentioning is that Montagna was given the choice, somewhat atypical, to be deported either to Canada or to Italy. In many people's minds, mine included, his decision to go to Montreal in April 2009 was not part of a master plan. But once he got there, I think he got some ideas in his head.

Exactly.

Like I said, he decided to make the most of it. And now he's dead.

I think Montagna decided that he should become the new caporegime in Montreal with the Bonanno family's approval. I think he may have even got some support, maybe from his old crew.

But I think it's hard to imagine that anyone from Montreal would have asked the Bonannos for approval to murder Montagna. They would have probably signed their own deathwarrant if they did. And besides, if Montagna was taken out because Montreal mafiosi didn't want an outsider to call the shots they would have never asked the Bonannos for approval in the first place.



Not ridiculous at all considering the history between the Bonannos and Montreal. Vito Rizzuto is still a Bonanno member as was his father, and they came from Sicily. Carmine Galante came from New York and took over. Vic Cotroni was a Bonanno captain and Joe Di Maulo and Domenico Arcuri are likely also Bonanno members.

The writers of Mafia Inc., two journalists from Quebec with decades of experience, thought this was a plausible scenario. The idea that Montagna would take over in Montreal came from them, more then likely based on police reports.

And it's not like Montagna walked in and took over, it probably took a lot of negotiating and killings. I'm just saying...

I'm talking about today's mafia. There's no way an American is going into Canada today and successfully taking over in the long term. And in their minds, Montagna was an American. And now he's dead.

I agree with you that Montagna probably tried to take over, he just wasn't very successful in the long term. But in the short term he did make some noise.

I know many people on the boards don't think the Bonanno's were/are involved in the Montreal war but IMO if the hit on Sal occurred without permission I think they Bonanno's will strike back. It seems like it is much easier for mobsters to get away with murder in Canada and the Bonanno's have always been known for their close relationship with Sicily. Contrary to popular belief, the Rizzuto's are not the only Bonanno members with Sicilian connections and gaining entry into Canada is much easier than gaining access to the USA. It will be very interesting if we finally find out who the actual shooters were particularly in the Nick SR and Cun trera hits. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that the trigger men were Zips. On the other hand IMO there is a very sound basis to the speculation that Violi's sons did the work, especially in the Nick SR hit, as Andre Cedilot and Andre Noel disclose in Mafia Inc. I wonder where they get all their info? They must be close with members of the Montreal detective squad working the cases.

The Violi-Hamilton-Ontario involvement goes back to 2005 when Piccirilli-D'Amico's wanted to take down the Rizzutos and go to war.

The Bonnano-Sicilian element is minor in this case and what were seeing here in Montreal is much like what happened in the States where there was a clash with the Zips and other Italian-American within the LCN.

People got fed up of the Rizzuto hegemony and there was a coalition of sorts to get rid of them. No more Sicilian domination in Montreal. They will have to share the pie with others now.

That's extremely correct.

Canadian gangsters no longer respect or trust American gangsters because of RICO and informants, but they continue to do business with them based mainly on the idea of $$$.

Times have changed.

word out is that sals next victim was supposed to be Lopresti's right hand man {TONY SUZ....} He got Sal before he got him.

who's next

With the right support anything is possible. Montagna tried too much too quick. He acted like an agressor, and with doing so you make enemies.

Forming alliegiances with Ontario families doesn't make you a boss in Montreal. But obviously there wasn't much resistance to taking out the Rizzuto leadership.

I think Montagna and the Violi brothers organized the Rizzuto killings while Montreal mafiosi stayed on the sideline. After the killings Montagna tried to establish a new leadership. He probably felt secure enough to go to a meeting unarmed and without a bodyguard.

Big mistake .

Old Genco never would have let him go!

I could tell you that if its quiet in Montreal for the next 6 months then we know that Vito is back in action. All lot of quys are waiting on the sidelines to see what happens when he gets out. He still has many loyalists waiting for him. Hamilton/Toronto guys are probably trying to figure out how to get knew players to take control of Montreal. Sal didn't work out and many don't want the heat. Know this, many big guys in Montreal ate very well with Vito. Its gonna take the outsiders a lot to turn things around. Sal was an outsider and very eager for money and power as he had a knew life to earn in new territory.

I'm getting a little confused now about you're opinion on this matter, Dave.

Over at the real deal forum you agree that this has nothing to do anymore with ethnicities. And it was you who said that the new boss was going to be a Sicilian.

EuroDave, you have so much insight, where do you get it all? Are you in LE or have a family member or close friend who is? How hard is it to get cops or detectives to talk about on going investigations?

Yes, but how come that he felt secure enough? That says something. And the guy obviously wasn't stupid.

I don't know, Sonny. But he was obviously mistaken in feeling that way.

It's all about the money.........but in the end, the Rizzutos and close family members ate very well without getting their hands dirty. They became too good for the streets and lived a life of luxury, nice cars, legitimate businesses etc......greedy and comfortable.

It's time for new players and the Montreal mafia scene will be more diverse than it once was where Sicilians dominated top-to-bottom. At the end of the day, everybody wants a piece of the pie.

Vito and his triumphant return?

Highly unlikely when he comes out and if he settles back in Montreal, he will be watched like a hawk by law enforcement here. Old man Nick barely left his home.

The Rizzutos are overplayed, over-extended, old news and done. Time for new players.

Sounds a lot like the resentment that Paul Castellano's subordinates had for him here in New York.

Compare,

You should see the homes these people live in. Google mafia-row or mafia street in Montreal and that will give you an idea of how the lived, as compared to many others. They sent their kids to the best private schools, some became lawyers, they had investments all over the city and country, the donated money etc...

The Rizzuto regime somewhat resembles that of Castellano.

It doesn't matter how rich or how well you try to pretend to be legal and a legitimate business man because at the end of the day, these scumbags make money by taking of advantage of societies weakest.

Eat or be eaten right?

Or, when you eat alone you die alone.

Six on one hand, half-a-dozen on the other .

You answer like a politician.

But do you still think the new boss is going to be a Sicilian?

Based on what you state about the Rizzutos being too good for the streets, I think this would also apply to someone like Di Maulo, which I why I really doubt he would be the new boss. It's been stated that he's very rich and has legitimate businesses just like the Rizzutos. Why would he risk all that? The guy is also pushing 70. Yet everyone thinks he's the new powerhouse.

Both media sources and others have claimed that Di Maulo is not interested to become the new boss but rather play a more secondary role. Like you said, the guy is 70.

As for the new boss, he might well be a Sicilian even though the Violi-Ontario families were mostly responsible for the Rizzuto decline. Montreal still has a large Sicilian population and therefore they need and want somebody who represents their interests.

Whether that means the new boss will be a Sicilian or not remains to be seen. The Montreal mafia has always been culturally diverse but for the last 30 years the Sicilians were at the top. Things will probably be more evenly distributed in the future.

And that's all anyone really needs to know about these guys.

They think the average shmuck works 9-5.

The average shmuck doesn't get a bullet in the head infront of his family during breakfast

Technically speaking he was hit in the neck.

I agree with what pizzaboy said here.

Also, very well said, antimafia. It's nice to see you again and always nice to read your posts.

it's not ridiculous since bonanno's are stronger than montreal mafia by far, no matter montreal is actually more violent that's only because the lack of anti-mafia laws in canada nothing more
bonanno's in ny have 150 or more made members and they are full of zips they could easily send zips to montreal and kill whoever they want

How many bonnano capos would really want to go along with a plan like that in another country?

Whats happened to joseph ducarme?

the zip faction

orite but how many people are in the zip faction and how powerful are they in the bigger picture?

Bonnanos are busy extorting hot-dog vendors and getting eastern-european prostitutes, not planning to take over the Montreal mob.

Sal was a zip and close to them and look where it got him.....dead. This is a Canadian thing.

It's not the 50s

The bonnanos seem more of a regional group as in most of their main activities would probably stay in the new york area. And i dont think any of the families today would go out their way to start trouble with another group especially in a different country.

i agree the bonnano's have a hard time handling things in NY let alone taking on another country. i honestly think that there will be no retaliation from them over sal.

Exactly........with all the heat from Law Enforcement these days and recent prosecutions, do you really think the Bonnanos would risk going to war with another crime family in another country when they can barely take on local matters?

the new bonanno leadership is different, all the rats are on massino side and they are finished
basciano is closer to the zips than the old guard, vinny tv is close too, nicky santoro the same... toto catalano is free since 2009 (coincidence?) and i think he's the boss now
catalano said sal could take over montreal when he was deported in 2009

and if bonanno's can't take over montreal i really can't seee like a bunch of nobody in granby could because a debt in 2005 lol
the bonanno's lost millions because of rizzuto's since 99

Nice to see you as well, carmela. Also nice to read your posts again.

I perhaps should have mentioned a few other details about Montagna and his deportation:

[*]He had dual citizenship (Canadian, Italian) but not American citizenship.

[*]He almost received his green card several years ago. If he had received it, he would not have been deported.

[*]Even back in April 2009, when he was deported -- he chose to go to Canada rather than Italy -- his lawyer was wrangling to try to have Montagna stay in the US, as this was Montagna's wish. After Montagna was deported, he still wanted to return to the US, and his lawyer continued to fight for this on Montagna's behalf till reality set in: Montagna would not be able to return.

Nevertheless, I cannot give short shrift to Montagna's activities (including meetings) in Quebec and especially in Ontario once he knew that a return to the US was not in the cards. (I am especially curious as to who his contacts in Ontario were before he was deported.) While the attempted murder of Raynald Desjardins and the murders of Lorenzo Lo Presti and Montagna make clearer, for some posters, who is or was on whose side, I am still perplexed by Domenico Arcuri Jr.'s helping to introduce Montagna to Desjardins and by Lorenzo Lo Presti's association with Montagna (assuming this is true). Arcuri's and Lo Presti's respective families descend from the Rizzutos' hometown in Sicily, and I have reasons for suspecting the likelihood of Arcuris and Lo Prestis intermarrying with Rizzutos and Cammalleris, both in Montreal and Toronto.

The Arcuris of Montreal and Giacinto Arcuri of Toronto (a noted mafioso in Ontario's underworld) were known to have established ties to the Bonanno Family in New York: Domenico Arcuri Sr. (Domenico Jr.'s father) and Giacinto Arcuri are related to Giuseppe Arcuri, a New York soldier in the Bonanno Family. Giuseppe, who died in 2001, co-owned a pizzeria in Long Island with Gerlando Sciascia, and according to The Sixth Family co-author Adrian Humphreys, there apparently were Montreal Mafia members who attended Giuseppe's wake.

Law enforcement has speculated that Domenico Arcuri Sr. wed, many, many years ago, the niece of Nicolino Alfano, a New York Bonanno.

If Montagna was representing Rizzuto-organization interests before the murder of Nick Rizzuto Sr., would Montagna have told Nick Rizzuto Sr. that the latter's reign was over? If Montagna was representing the interests of Sicilian members of the Montreal Mafia such as Domenico Arcuri Jr. and Lorenzo Lo Presti, and the latter were part of a group that was fed up with the Rizzutos' reign, then perhaps these individuals might be deemed as renegades in the Rizzuto faction -- but I have trouble understanding this.

Bear in mind that Lorenzo Lo Presti grew up living next door to Vito and Nick Rizzuto Sr. Lo Presti was the one who identified his father's body at the morgue in 1992. I don't believe that, according to Sal Vitale, Gerlando Sciascia killed or arranged to kill Joe Lo Presti. I don't see Lorenzo and the Arcuris betraying Nick Sr. and Vito; however, much of the internal fighting in the Montreal Mafia in the last few years is a result of betrayals, the formation of factions, and the switching of allegiances.

Excellent, well researched post, antimafia. Welcome to the boards .

And interesting to note is that Domenico Arcuri, Sr. was apparantly connected and/or respected enough to have been present at the Bono wedding in New York in 1980, where many big names were present. Mafia Inc. also states that Arcuri was liked by Bonanno capos back in the 1970s.

And another interesting thing is that Arcuri worked for Violi's right-hand man, Pietro Sciarra (apparantly also from Agrigento), who was the first victim of the Rizzuto take-over. After this, Arcuri probably switched to the Rizzuto's.

Therefore I think he could be the logical successor as head of the Montreal mafia. I wouldn't be suprised if it were actually the Arcuris who set Montagna up.

they are the zips who are taking over everything, tons of people were released after being charged in the pizza connection trial and they back home
even in sicily these people backing in power the gambino's inzerillo's mannino's
they took over the gambino family through johnny gambino the bonanno's and the genovese's so far
there's a struggle in montreal between zips too

While checking with google if I spelled "Sciara" correctly, I stumbled into an interesting article, which seems to be decently researched. I would recommend to read it:

http://coolopolis.blogspot.com/2010/11/r...863775425369524

It also links to a bunch of old news articles about Violi:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Uk8xAAAAIBAJ&sjid=uaEFAAAAIBAJ&dq=paolo-violi&pg=4643%2C3411244

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SE8xAAAAIBAJ&sjid=uaEFAAAAIBAJ&dq=paolo-violi&pg=2091%2C261556

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=z_QhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gaEFAAAAIBAJ&dq=paolo%20violi%20jean%20talon%20east&pg=3519%2C3308156

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=D_UhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3aEFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5047%2C4804

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=qlU_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=s1IMAAAAIBAJ&dq=francesco%20violi&pg=3376%2C3480703

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=vs0tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=UaEFAAAAIBAJ&dq=paolo%20violi&pg=935%2C2492527

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=vs0tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=UaEFAAAAIBAJ&dq=paolo%20violi&pg=2456%2C2479260

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=u80tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=UaEFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2005%2C1862099

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3k8xAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3KEFAAAAIBAJ&dq=paolo%20violi&pg=1034%2C2848765

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1VsxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=p6QFAAAAIBAJ&dq=rocco%20violi&pg=2153%2C3460003

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=f1Y_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=4FIMAAAAIBAJ&dq=paolo%20violi&pg=6458%2C3885151

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=us0tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=UaEFAAAAIBAJ&dq=paolo%20violi&pg=2024%2C1653680

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ATc0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=NfUIAAAAIBAJ&dq=paolo%20violi&pg=908%2C905770

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Ajc0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=NfUIAAAAIBAJ&dq=blue-jeans%20and%20montreal&pg=968%2C1548658

Name me one zip in the Genovese family leadership.

silvio de vita and most of his crews are zips

Granted, De Vita is a skipper with his own crew in Jersey. But posting that the "zips have taken over the Genovese family" just isn't accurate. Plus, there's no evidence that he's any more than a captain. I've never heard or read anything indicating that he's on a ruling panel of any kind. But whatever.

the zips rule what is left in the american commission now, i think they want de vita as boss of the genovese's
the zips run a multibillionaire worldwide empire and have connections in the all 5 continents it's better not to fuck with them

That's strictly conjecture on your part. The Commission doesn't even exist anymore.

And for the record, there are seven continents.

lol i didn't know the two more continents you mean
anyway, the zips litterally ruled the world at one time

Are you on Sicilian payroll?......must be:)

The Cosa Nostra both in American and in Italy is not what it used to be. That doesn't mean it doesn't exert influence in parts of Sicily or other locations but the Camorra and Ndrangheta have become far more dangerous over the last two decades.

Antimafia, excellent post!

From my understanding Montagna, Arcuri and Lopresti were part of the same team. Lopresti had been warned to keep a low profile and not cause a ruckus while Montagna was taking too much space in Montreal. That's as much as I know for now.

Well, actually they are spread out across the continents even today. They still have businesses and contacts in places people don't normally expect, like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Russia.

since the camorra is even close to cosa nostra? even today it's nothing compared to mafia, cosa nostra is stronger than camorra everywhere except just a couple of european places
ndrangheta is stronger in europe today than mafia but not worldwide
the ndrangheta is just overrated like russians and albanians, it's not even close today to the mafia at its peak
the zips and when i mean zips i mostly mean the inzerillo-gambino-mannino-badalamenti-palazzolo are the single richest and most powerful criminal group in the world they were all involved in the pizza connection and they run a multibillionaire empire and they're back...

Of course, wherever money can be laundered and invested without hassle. All Italian crime syndicates have operations across the world.

the zips are richer and laundered
more money than any criminal group worldwide, they produced heroin by themselves in sicily they needn't any intermediate...and they had tons of contancts, they dominated the WHOLE western heroin market (North america europe australia) like nobody ever did
even turkish were ever close to dominate this field like them

@m2w: But they are not what used to be,they tried reorganising,but police find out about it its called "Operation Old Bridge" i am sure u know about it.

Check it out here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Old_Bridge

Few guys from Pizza Connection were arrested too,i am sure they will try again.

EuroDave,

Your posts make zero sense. Your arguments are fantasy, you can't back up anything you say. And we all wonder why the "Euro" is such a mess. Your most likely from France. If that's the case you can plead ignorance. A Zip running the Genovese Family is a joke. And for the record there all called "Greaseballs" not Zip. Zip was a 70's phrase. And respect PizzaBoy! That I will tell you is who has earned it.

In Italy they don't even know what you're talking about if you say 'zip'. The whole term is stupid. (now we'll get into a dozen replies as to how the term originated). I would, however, love to hear you call a greaseball a greaseball to his face. Interesting.

it was my post eastharlem you can't even rad right...
it's very possible a so-called zip or greasball or whatever you call them they are sicilian-born living on the other side and yeah they could run the genovese's now through de vita or same other... gambino's and bonanno's are litterally in zips hands now and they are the major force inside the commission
they took over montreal from other zips (rizzuto's) just see how strong they are
they came back in palermo and they are feared by even rotolo men and corleonesi
they came back in milan, north italy, and made ndrangheta scared even there

I think you're referring to m2w......I'm Canadian.

that's why the Genovese family is considered to be the most secretive and strongest?........and the family name doesn't even bear a Sicilian name, neither is it known for it's sicilian influence or as you call them zips.

get off the Sicilian bandwagon.........the cosa nostra is a shadow of it's former-self........1000 informants and counting.

the genovese's are mostly sicilians... not zips but people of sicilian descent like bellomo, mangano, dentico, de vita, muscarella and all the actual top dogs have sicilian origins
it was formed by sicilians (piddu morello)
yeah it was named after vito genovese who was napolitan but the hard-core remain sicilian and like i said de vita could took over since the zips run the commission now...
lol yes cosa nostra is maybe a shadow of its former-self but it's enough to be stronger than camorra and maybe even ndrangheta
1000 informants where? according italian police they were 300 250 from camorra and and 150 from ndrangheta
you forgot that the pressure of goverment in the 90s against sicilians were huge, i bet what would be left of camorra and ndrangheta under that kind of pressure...

hence their decline and restructuring.......is that so hard to understand?

That has nothing to do with it whatsoever. The name was given to them by the feds because Genovese happened to be their boss at the time. And when time went by mobsters apparantly adapted it. So that argument is as weak as the ones given by m2w.

More than you think.

Because?

"hence their decline and restructuring.......is that so hard to understand?"

i never said cosa nostra is strong like it used to be in the 80s 90s and before... i said that it survived the huge pressure from the goverment in the 90s and was able to restructure itself under provenzano reign
i wonder if camorra or ndrangheta would survive if attacked so heavily, i bet they would be downsize as street gangs

First, it's questionable whether there is really any working Commission at this point. There may be, there may not be. The last known meeting was over a decade ago now.

Second, no American LCN family is in "the hands" of Sicilian mobsters. Even the ones that have traditionally had a "Sicilian faction," like the Gambinos and Bonannos. These are Italian-American crime families. Some Sicilian guys may move up to high levels here and there but it's not like the Sicilians have taken over.

Third, the whole "Sicilianess" of these guys is overstated. Most of these guys have been in the U.S. for decades. Sometimes longer than they ever lived in Sicily.

Fourth, the 'Ndrangheta is - by all accounts - the strongest Italian crime group right now. They control the drug routes and are more active on an international scale. The Cosa Nostra isn't dead by any means but the Calabrians are #1.

Great post, Ivy.

Have you been watching any news lately?......what has the Italian government done in the last 2-3 years?

Operazione Il Crimine and many others have constantly battered and targeted the Ndrangheta.

Extremely well said.

I don't think the 'Ndrangheta is as powerful as Cosa Nostra was at its height, when it practically controlled the state at one point. But the 'Ndrangheta surely looks more sophisticated than their Sicilian counterparts and for that reason alone their endurance will be better.

the whole actual gambino's and bonanno's administrations are formed by zips, so yeah they are in zips hands
nobody knows surely the actual genovese head it could be the zip de vita
ndrangheta is a little stronger than cosa nostra in europe and australia not worldwide, cosa nostra is far stronger in the US, canada, south america, africa... so i think cosa nostra is still stronger worldwide
italian sources claiming ndrangheta is the strongest group are usually calabrian prosecutor... anyway yes it's probably stronger in europe now but it doesn't control 80% of cocaine like somebody claims it's impossible it leaves 20% for sicilians, napolitans, turkish, russians it's a total joke like the stupid claim albanians control 80% of heroin leaving 20% to turkish lol

Exactly, Sonny.

Evolve or become extinct.

And culturally they are far more subtle and low-key.

you forget that berlusconi is much closer to cosa nostra than any mafia, cosa nostra has still the highest political connections at national level

I think the 'Ndrangheta's main goal is to eventually become a legitimate enterprise; many of them are already more businessmen than gangsters and have investments in legitimate businesses (realised by the laundering of their enormous profits from drug trafficking).

The Corleone family from The Godfather has actually far more to do with the Calabrian 'Ndrangheta than the Sicilian Mafia. If Puzo had chosen to make them a Calabrian family and placed them in Canada The Godfather would have instantly been a very realistic film.

Capeci and others would have used The Godfather as a reference for realism instead of Goodfellas.

I'll buy that. But as far as real life American mob families go, the Corleones were far more mythic.

You would know that better than I do. Still, I think things could have happened like it did in The Godfather.

Maybe something for a new topic in the section above?

the ndrangheta can't become a legitimate enterprise, they are involved in drugs and weapons extortion rackets and so...
in italy no crime family really becomes legitimate although involved in sophisticated business
sicilian mafia is involved in that too and several bosses are businessman, cosa nostra controls virtually the whole sicilian economy and it has legit interests all across italy

Sure, it had its moments.

To me, the most spot-on part of the movie was when Carlo got smacked around by Sonny. That could easily happen in real life, and they filmed it right on Pleasant Avenue in East Harlem, about a block away from where my grandparents lived when they first came to this country.

You can't put a price on realism like that .

All those small things were certainly realistic. But a son who succeeds as Don of the most powerful mafia family during their height in the 1950s and managed to stay on top for 30 or so years before leaving the family in the hands of his bastard cousin?

"Difficult, almost impossible"

That's news to me.

In the Gambino family, Cefalu is from the "Sicilian wing" but he has been in the U.S. for decades and was made into the Gambino family in 1990. Squitieri and Vernace aren't part of the Sicilian faction.

In the Bonanno family, Badalamenti is also a local guy. As is Graziano (if he's still consigliere). And even Montagna only lived in Sicily briefly before coming to the U.S. as a kid, later getting made into the Bonanno family in 1989.

For all the talk over the years about the zips taking over the local families, there hasn't been much evidence of it. Like I said, a handful have risen high up but that's it. In fact, you can probably count them on one hand - Sal Catalano and Sal Montagna for the Bonannos. John Gambino and Dom Cefalu for the Gambinos. Frank Guarraci in Jersey. Stanfa in Philadelphia.



Are you talking about Genovese Jersey capo Silvio Devita? The latest reports, for what they're worth, have the top guys as Mangano, Bellomo, Muscarello, and Dentico. All local guys.



I agree that Cosa Nostra has a bigger presence in the U.S. And it may still have in Canada although that could be changing. The 'Ndrangheta has just as strong, if not stronger, presence in South America now; including better drug connections. The 'Ndrangheta is certainly bigger in Australia. In Africa it's probably a toss up. But most importantly, the 'Ndrangheta is stronger in Italy and in Europe as a whole.



Even without getting caught up in exact percentages, it's obvious the 'Ndrangheta has taken the dominant role in the drug trade as far as Italian OC is considered. While the Sicilians have been marginalized compared to where they were in the past. During Provenzano's reign, there were a lot of reports how the Cosa Nostra in Sicily began to focus more on local rackets such as public works contracts, extortion, etc.

Huh? Not to keep harping on you, m2w, but I don't know where you're getting this. The 'Ndrangheta, like the Cosa Nostra and Camorra, is heavily involved in legitimate sectors of the economy. They have to have somewhere to invest their money from drugs, extortion, weapons trafficking, etc.

Whether or not Morello started the Genovese Family is up to debate, I guess.
But lke I mentioned in an earlier post, Morello and a very small number of his previous followers joined the Masseria Mafia group in the early 1920s.
During that time, Masseria was very successful in merging with mainland Italians, creating a powerful Mafia Family.
When Lucky Luciano took over in 1931, close to only Lucky (among the highranking members in that Family), was of Sicilian descent. Even in the early 1960s, the Luciano Family (now the Genovese Family) was dominated by Neopolitans and Calabreses.

Let´s take a look at the top members heritage in the early 1960s.

Vito Genovese (Neopolitan),
Jerry Catena (Neopolitan),
Mike Miranda (Neopolitan),
Tommy Ryan (Neopolitan),
Tony Bender (Neopolitan),
Rocco Pellegrino (Calabrese),
Tommy Greco (Sicilian),
Richie Boiardo (Neopolitan),
Mike Coppola (Neopoltan),
Angelo (Ray the Gyp) DeCarlo (?),
Generoso Del Duca (Neopolitan),
Jimmy (Blue Eyes) Alo (Calabrese),
Tony (the Shiek) Carillo (Neopolitan),
Carmine Bove (Neopolitan),
Vicenzo (Jimmy Demino) Generoso (?),
Cosmo (Gus) Frasca (Sicilian),
Eugene Catena (Neopolitan),
Joe (Beck) Lapi (?),
Frank Costello, Genovese´s predecessor as boss, (Calabrese).

I´m not dissing your argument on current Genovese members, simply because I dont know their heritage. But as you can see, the early Genovese Family was dominated by mainland Italians.

ok, listen carefully
gambino actual top dogs: john gambino, joe gambino, frank cali, dom cefalu all zips
bonanno top dogs: sal catalano, vinny tv, vito grimaldi, vinny asaro all zips
genovese family: reputed top dog silvio de vita zip
decavalcante top dog: francesco guarraci zip



yeah i'm talking about him, these reports are old... i suppose he is the top dog know since the zips want it



cosa nostra is by far stronger than ndrangheta in Us and Canada, it's stronger in south america (the badalamenti's visrtually control half brazil)and africa (don vito virtually control half south africa)... the ndrangheta is stronger in europe as a whole ok but cosa nostra is stronger worldwide too me



cosa nostra us involved in drugs too although less than ndrangheta, but you forget in italy the mafias get litterally billions (even more than drugs) from fields like public works, waste disposal and gambling where cosa nostra is more entrenched in



i didn't say ndrangheta is not involved in legitimate sectors of course it is, it litterally rules the whole calabria economy... i meant that the crime family in italy never become entireli legitimate even when they are multibillionaire they remain involved in the underwold

honestly, don't proof lying to me i know far more than you in this field
the so called genovese family was formed by sicilians, vito genovese was the boss only for a couple of years since the real boss was lucky luciano until he died in 1962 although little know about this fact...
anyway you are wrong about several of this guys since jerry and eugene catena mike miranda cosimo frasca vinny generoso joe lapi and angelo de carlo are sicilians

Nope, Catena´s origin has been traced back to the town of Salerno, Mike Miranda was born in the province of Naples.
And since I don´t know Generoso´s, Lapi´s and DeCarlos heritage, maybe you´d be so kind to help me out?
What are these guys towns of origin?

sorry pal, jerry catena is sicilian even according to wiretaps of that time
show a me source (credible) that i'm wrong or just shut up

Come on, guys .

Just friggin agree to disagree.

the principal headquarter of the genovese's in east harlem was an heavy sicilian enclaves at that time

I don't even want to get in this, but East Harlem was an enclave for ALL Italians. Period. And the neighborhood is nearly 100 percent Spanish today.

i'm talking of eastharlem of the past not today, in the past was almost 100% italian and among italians sicilians were over 60% in that place

who cares?........it's not 1952 anymore.

Agreed, this is not only a useless discussion, but also in the wrong topic.

the today eastharlem/bronx crew from all the recent acting bosses are is entirely of sicilian descent

Wait, wait, wait...
If a kid claims that Lucky Luciano was boss until 1962, the kid is obviuosly misguided.
He needs to read some books. And learn how to show proper respect in here.
I took upon the task to give the kid some advice. I´ve been researching the US Mafia for close to 30 years. I certainly don´t need to be disrespected like that.

Sonny, how many threads in here starts and ends with the same topic?

i'm still waiting your sources that claimcatena was napolitan
ah yes michael coppola was sicilian too

sorry to perpetuate this any longer but where the hell do you get the idea that Luciano was boss till 1962? he had been well out of that position by 1962.

Oh, I see. I thought we were going off known and demonstrable facts rather than just assumptions that support certain theories. My mistake.



You "suppose," huh?



Half of Brazil and South Africa? OK.



Cosa Nostra makes more money from public works contracts than drugs because it's been marginalized in the drug trade. But drugs are a more lucrative business.

i'm absolutely right about gambino's and bonanno's, i suppose about genovese's but since the zips run the actual commission is very plausible de vita is the boss now



when i said 'half' i meant they are the richest men in both countries, they run multibillionairte empires and they are close to the president of that countries



forget somebody marginalized cosa nostra, nobody could, it was forced by the government because too much under pressure not because ndrangheta or somebody took over... but today it's back in this field and it control a large part of it, although drugs today is a business for losers since public works, waste disposal are multibillionaire business yes even bigger than drug trade

[/quote]

They already are very legitimate in Canada. They have all sorts of legitimate business. Clans in Calabria have family in Canada that are 100% legit and have huge businesses.

Just came across this article and hadnt seen it posted. It is translated, so its not perfect.

http://fr.canoe.ca/infos/societe/archives/2011/12/20111210-040004.html


Shortly after the murder of the rising star of the Mafia, Salvatore Montagna, the Calabrian Moreno Gallo received a visit from the police. This has led Corrections to suspend his parole and return the veteran mobster in prison.

Gallo, 66, has gone back to the cells there are a dozen days, a week after the murder of Salvatore Montagna, committed on 24 November, to Charlemagne.

After the murder of the man whose name was circulating as a possible successor to the sponsor, Nicolo Rizzuto, the police met Moreno Gallo, the Journal has learned.

As required by its terms, Moreno Gallo had to share this meeting with Correctional Services Canada.

Authorities did not reveal the reasons for the visit police but were serious enough that the Parole Moreno Gallo is immediately suspended.

The spokesman for Correctional Services could not reveal why the parole Calabrese has been suspended, but confirmed the return of the latter in prison.

"All I can confirm is that Mr. Gallo is our responsibility," said Serge Abergel Journal.

"When a release is suspended, the individual returned to prison for a temporary period, until his case be re-evaluated," said the spokesperson of Correctional Services.

"The reasons for parole may be suspended when there is a breach of condition, we have suspicion to believe that a condition could be broken or there is danger to public safety" said Mr. Radford.

Respected in the community

A folder on the Mafia, published recently, the Journal has identified Moreno Gallo, as an individual who could play an important role, to advise or "wise" in the new structure of organized crime, which is being set in place since the fall of the Rizzuto clan.

Before the statutory requirements conditional in May, Moreno Gallo has denied being involved in organized crime, but police believe the opposite.

A referee

In 1973, Moreno Gallo killed a drug dealer with three bullets to the head. He spent ten years in prison and was released in 1983.

Subsequently, it completely disappeared from radar police for nearly 20 years, until the investigators to observe the operation Coliseum 74 times Consenza coffee, the headquarters of the Sicilians, in the early 2000. After the anti-mafia raid in November 2006, he was sent back to prison for breaking conditions.

Gallo, who had often played the role of arbiter in the organized crime, including resolving disputes between the Mafia and the Hells Angels, has been tipped to succeed Vito Rizzuto, when it took the path of the United States in 2006, to be imprisoned for the murders of three lieutenants of the famous Bonanno family, committed in New York in 1981.

Threatened with expulsion

It was after his arrest in connection with the investigation Colosseum, the authorities realized that Gallo had his permanent residence, but not a Canadian citizen.

The Border Services Agency has taken steps to expel for serious crime, which were endorsed by a Commissioner of Immigration, in May 2010.

After being sent to the Federal Court in vain, Moreno Gallo took advantage of a program of Citizenship and Immigration Canada to avoid the former drive because of the dangers he might face if returned to Italy. He is still awaiting a decision.

Meanwhile, he helps his wife in the popular bakery she owns in Little Italy, he said before the commissioners to parole in May.

Could just be a coincidence as he was likely seen with other known criminals, violating his parole. The media are always looking for clues, suspicions and possible signs and link them to an event.

I think Gallo has more things on his mind than to participate in a war or take-over. He risks being deported so the last thing he wants is police to think he's back in the game.

I don't know one criminal that hasn't violated their parole.

It's actually 99% Spanish, hence the "Barrio". As Pizza Boy knows, there are more Sicilians on 18th AVE in Brooklyn then anywhere else in NYC at anytime. And it's false regarding Harlem being mostly Sicilian, it was mostly Southern Italians. Not Sicilians. If you lived here you would know, shut if you had ever been here you would know. Had you ever been here you wouldn't make statements like you have. It's different then the WIKI articles you state as fact. Pizza Boy do you agree, being we were born and raised in the area.

i doubt you can't even point italy on a map
anyway, i was talking of eastharlem of the past no today
i know today is 90% spanish
in the past it was mostly sicilian like i said

I grew up in the Bronx. My Dad is originally from Pleasant Avenue and 117th Street, and my grandfather and grandmother lived there from when they arrived in this country until the day they died (they arrived in the late '20s and passed away in '87 and '91 respectively).

I spent a lot of time in the neighborhood during the '60s, '70s, and '80s, and still go back out of nostalgia from time to time. And from what I remember, the neighborhood was a melting pot of all Italians, with an emphasis on Calabrians, Neapolitans, Sicilians, and even some Abruzzese and Barese.

But my family only lived there for 60 years, so what do I know?

I had totally forgot about this and your wrong assumptions about the Genovese Family. I was reminded of it yesterday when seeing another post of yours; arrogant, unfounded and unsourced.

This is from the FBN book, note the birth places of these guys:

Thanks for posting what I've been thinking for a while. This guy is full of crap, spewing nonsense.

You´re welcome, Mike. I don´t mind him speculating about the Italian mobsters in Italy. That´s fine. But when claiming to know something he just pulled out of his a.. and showing that disrespect to posters who actually know what they are talking about, makes me react. There are visitors in here that could buy a lot of crap and false information, misguiding them (especially when not proper sources are presented).
Let´s try to put an end to that.

mike miranda was born in the same place where i live.a man told me about him some months ago.i know he came back here to make deals with camorra but i m talking about 40-50 years ago.i never found something about him on internet.he was a boss or a soldier?

Mike Miranda fled the US in mid 1930s after a murder charge and found refuge in Italy. He returned to New York in mid 1940s when the charges against him were dropped.
He was very close to Vito Genovese and rose to the rank of consigliere when Genovese grabbed power in the old Luciano Family.
Interesting that you are living in the same town as Miranda was born in. You might have heard about Antonio Carillo, nicknamed "Tony the Sheik"? Carillo was another caporegime in the Genovese Family, born in the same town as Miranda...and you, I guess.

Guys I suggest we keep this information in the right topic, because this is getting confusing.