Evidence of the Mob's decline Economically?

I was wondering if there have been studies done to show the turn over for a family or Cosa Nostra in general in a year or period. I wanted to see if we could compare recent years with the highs of the 60s and 70s for a comparison.

For example the Genovese family were estimated to make X amount in 2010, in 1970 they made this. I realise this is very hard to put a price on organised crime but I think there have been estimates made. Just thinking of the big families in the 70s the turnover must of been ridiculous, however even today it would surely rival big legitimate businesses.

Just look at Philadelphia. Compare the Scarfo years vs Ligambi.You can say alot of things about Scarfo, but the Scarfo Family made tons of cash. It wouldn't surprise me if a few of those soldiers in the scarfo's family were millionaires. I think soldiers in scarfo's era made alot more money than Ligambi himself, present day.

Totally agree with you, under Scarfo the family had a lot of Unions and political connections, they made a hell of a lot of money out of AC too.

Valid point.

I made a post awhile back about how the Genovese family took a big hit when they lost the garbage and the fish market. Now, they've adapted to newer rackets in order to evolve and survive, but there was a lot more money to be spread around in rackets like garbage. Sure, a few guys are getting rich off stock scams and whatnot, but A LOT of guys got rich off garbage. There were some millionaire soldiers twenty years ago. Today, not so much.

^^^ I remember reading your post, and you were spot on. As far as today goes, the mob can't exist without being involved in a legitimate business as well.

Organize crime tends to do very well during economic stagnation as people need loans, play more vice and fall into depression.

Im sure some NYC gangsters made some serious cash through various rackets during and post 2008 recession. Although the drug market is somewhat downplayed by the feds and the cartels are moving the bulk of it, the LCN still has a network which can provide a service.

The Canadian mafia is definitely in a richer position. Just think of the [BadWord]-Caruanas, the Coluccio brothers and Commisso.

Not without being involved in legitimate businesses, among illegitimate they didn't, and haven't.

As for the Caruana's and Cun trera's, they are still primarily in Sicily. There are not many at all left in Canada.

Alot of them probably spend the money as fast as they get it. I think alot of the money made goes up to the leadership. Their actually the more likely ones to bother laundering large amounts of cash through legitimate businesses. If your a soldier and say you pulled off a few of home invasion robberies that netted you around $50,000 your gonna have to kick part of that up also the split with those that helped you do the robberies, the rest of it youll probably just spend on maintaining the lifestyle youve been living.

They have come up with good scams that have made millions. But the money is split amongst the instigator of the criminal operation, one or two soldiers who help operate it, the capo their under and the boss. Anyone else is used when needed but probably arent the core participants of the group.

I know forbes used to include gangsters on there list of top several hundred, not sure if that is still done or when the last time it was. Though that would only be the crem de le crem we are talking of

Yeah Forbes recently had Chapo Guzman on some rich list and a powerful list too.

Here's Fortune magazine's list from October of 1986:

Fortune magazine's list of the nation's top 50 mobsters, their ages and headquarters (many are in jail or on trial):
1. Anthony "Fat Tony" Salerno, 75, New York.
2. Anthony "Joe Batters" Accardo, 80, Palm Springs, Calif.
3. Anthony "Tony Ducks" Corallo, 73, Long Island, N.Y.
4. Gerardo "Jerry" Catena, 84, Boca Raton.
5. Gennaro "Jerry Lang" Langella, New York.
6. Carmine "Junior" Persico, 53, New York.
7. Christopher "Christie Tick" Furnari, 62, New York.
8. Salvatore "Tom Mix" Santoro, 70, New York.
9. Philip "Rusty" Rastelli, 68, New York.
10. Vincent "Vinnie" DiNapoli, 49, New York.
11. Ralph Scopo, 57, New York.
12. Russell Bufalino, 83, Scranton, Pa.
13. John Gotti, 46, New York.
14. Joseph "Joe Bananas" Bonanno, 82, Tucson, Ariz.
15. Santo "Louis Santos" Trafficante, 71, Tampa.
16. Carlos "Little Man" Marcello, 76, New Orleans.
17. Frank "Frankie Bal" Balistrieri, 68, Milwaukee.
18. Michael Franzese, 35, Long Island, N.Y.
19. Vincent "Chin" Gigante, 57, New Jersey.
20. Joseph "Joe Nagall" Ferriola, 59, Chicago.
21. Joseph "Joey O'Brien" Aiuppa, 78, Chicago.
22. Gus "Slim" Alex, 70, Chicago.
23. Vincent "Jimmy Blue Eyes" Alo, 82, Miami.
24. Anthony "Bruno" Indelicato, 39, New York.
25. Michael "Mike" Genovese, 65, Pittsburgh.
26. Joseph Gallo, 74, New York.
27. Philip "Benny Squint" Lombardo, 78, Miami.
28. Raymond "Long John" Martorano, 59, Philadelphia.
29. Anthony "Tony Pro" Provenzano, 69, New Jersey.
30. John "Jackie" Cerone, 72, Chicago.
31. James "Jimmie Napp" Napoli, 75, New York.
32. Paul Vario Sr., 72, New York.
33. Carl "Toughy" DeLuna, 59, Kansas City, Mo.
34. Gennaro "Jerry" Angiulo, 67, Boston.
35. Matthew "Matty the Horse" Ianniello, 66, New York.
36. James "Jimmy Brown" Failla, 67, New York.
37. John Riggi Sr., 61, New Jersey.
38. Louis "Bobby" Manna, 57, New Jersey.
39. John "Johnnie Dee" Digilio, 53, New Jersey.
40. William "Willie" Cammisano, 71, Kansas City, Mo.
41. Vincent "Little Vince" Meli, 62, Detroit.
42. Vincent "Vince" Solano, 67, Chicago.
43. Nicodemo "Nicky" Scarfo, 57, Atlantic City, N.J.
44. Tino "George Grecco" Fiumara, 46, New Jersey.
45. Donald "Don Angel" Angelini, 60, Chicago.
46. Peter "Pete" Milano, 60, Los Angeles.
47. Paul "Paulie" Schiro, 45, Phoenix.
48. Chris Petti, 47, San Diego.
49. Angelo "Little Angie" Tuminaro, 81, unknown.
50. Frank "The Horse" Buccieri, 62, Palm Springs, Calif.

It's virtually impossible to get anything more than an educated, ball park estimate for a family at a given time. Let alone comparing now to decades ago. Even the authorities don't agree on their estimates. I basically don't even bother posting the estimates anymore.

I think it can safely be said that the mob, in New York and elsewhere, isn't bringing in the level of money it once did. In New York they lost the garment center, the airport, the food markets, much of the commercial garbage, the Javits center, as well as many of the unions used to infiltrated and control these industries. This, in turn, has deprived mob guys of lucrative, legitimate jobs (no show, low show, or otherwise) that they can declare income with and have health benefits. The mob, of course, also doesn't have the same stake in the drug trade it once did. And other rackets, like prostitution and pornography, are largely passe.

That said, the mob collectively still makes a lot of money from it's illegal gambling, loansharking, and extortion rackets. And in New York, from the construction industry. As we saw with the waterfront lately, there are guys still making six-figure salaries. And others are getting rich through stock fraud or other scams, drugs, etc. Many have profitable legitimate businesses.

I've said it before many times. The mob seems to mirror society in general. Most mob guys are middle class, more or less, with a minority being on both ends of the spectrum - some millionaires and others brokesters.

Wow, I just realized I can give a damn good answer..... I know the exact inheritance one of hose guys gave. On top of puting both his kids threw law school. I'll only say his nick name listed above is not the 1 I've always heard used for him.

He left his grand kids (5) $200,000 each. His sons (2) $1,000,000 each after puting both threw law school. And his wife still living has some of the nicest jewlery I've ever seen.

I know this for a fact, also the son that was like a father to me nearly gambled his away. Can't hardly blaim him given how he rolled while his Dad was in LV.

That's enough for some of u to get who I speak of. I'd appreciate you don't say who. I've never told anyone that story bout him gambling.

I wonder could anyone attempt to make a top 10 list of richest current mob guys? Or just throw some names out!

Marco d'amico has to be up on it.

A list like that would be impossible to make. But some guys that would have a good chance to be on that list include former Gambino captain Tommy Gambino, even though he's retired. Gambino captain Salvatore Locascio. Colombo soldier John S-------. Chicago boss John DiFronzo. And likely a good number of Genovese guys.

They're the one percent.

Any hippie socialists out there have a fuckin problem with that?

You know what would be some funny shit?

The low level guys in a protest against the big money bosses.

Call it "Occupy Staten Island."

always wondered how Forbes came up with the ranking for that list... the Chicago guys seem abnormally low, especially Cerone who had been in 'the life' for like 50+ years at that point. I'm sure at that point he amassed more money and power than someone like Gotti or Sonny Red's kid

I think Scarfo is too low on that list.

This guy is full of dog Sh)))T

I think the Gallos tried something like that with Profaci.

The list is meaningless. As is Forbes' estimate of Chapo's worth of $1 billion. It's not like any of these guys give a full disclosure of their wealth.

Thank you! I have stood by and watched in a state of disbelief as this list has circulated for years and has been cited as some kind of objective proof of the relative success of mobsters. Virtually no one ever questions it, even though it is obviously quite silly.

I totally agree.
These guys never paid any taxes! The list was created to sell magazines.

The thing is, who's gonna question it except for guys like us? I bet 99% of the people who have seen the list assumed it was authoritative, since it was coming from Forbes.

I have seen it cited in MSM articles about the mob pretty often. It seems to have already "gone down in history" as factual, and this probably isn't going to change just because "IvyLeague", "Ivan", and "HairyKnuckles" on some gangster message board don't approve.

It's actually interesting, in that it is a good demonstration of how dumb journalism can create pseudo-history.

Journalism is what it is: 20 percent facts, 80 percent bullshit. But it hardly just applies to mafia coverage; it's everything.

True - but don't you think the bullshit factor in mafia coverage is even higher than usual?

Not really.

Of course I could be very wrong, but just look at how the politicos behave. If it suits their agenda (or party), they'll write anything, whether it's exaggerated or not. Same goes for the clowns who write about the assholes out in Hollywood.

There's just no such thing as responsible journalism anymore (if it ever existed in the first place). Even the New York Times, which is supposed to set the standard for responsible journalism (if a bit too liberal), has become a fucking joke.

You're almost better off reading the Post nowadays. At least Rupert Murdoch's people don't pretend to be anything they're not. They just write for shits and giggles.

So wiseguys in New York nowadays had little or no clout over the unions? I thought they were still quite influential over the longshoreman.

Depends on what unions you're referring to. While it isn't what it was years ago, the mob's greatest clout is still found in the unions involved in the construction industry - Carpenters, Laborers, Operating Engineers, etc. Giuliani wasn't successful at instituting his reforms in the building trades like he was in other areas. And construction is just too diversified to regulate in the same way. The mob still has some clout on the waterfront via certain ILA locals. Especially the Genovese family on the Jersey docks. The biggest decline seems to be in the clout the mob had over the Teamsters. Loss of control over certain IBT locals, as well as various indictments and new regulations in certain industries, was what helped largely remove the mob from trucking in the garment center, at the airports, at the wholesale food markets, and in the city's commercial garbage industry.

I see. So, the mob are still relatively big into construction and the docks through the control of unions.

Both the unions and companies involved.